CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. Today we are hearing the matter of the abduction of Mr Chris Mosiane. My name for the record is Motata, from the TPD. On my left I have Mr Malan from Johannesburg and on my right I have Adv Sandi from East London. I would request the legal representatives who are involved in this matter, to place their names on record. I'll start from my left.
MR PRINSLOO: As it pleases, Mr Chairman. Harry Prinsloo on behalf of the applicants, Pienaar and Deetlefs.
MS VAN DER WALT: Louis van DER Walt, Chairperson, for Mr S J Visser and Mr H W van Zweel.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Richard.
MR RICHARD: I apologise, Chairperson. My name is Tony Richard, Johannesburg, I represent Chris Mosiane.
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. My name is Steenkamp, I will be the Evidence Leader. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready to commence?
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, I'm calling the first applicant, Mr Pienaar. He is Afrikaans-speaking, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: I'll ask Mr Malan to administer the oath.
FREDERICK JOHANNES PIENAAR: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Malan. Mr Prinsloo.
EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO: Mr Pienaar, you are an applicant in this applicant in the matter of the abduction of Mr Mosiane.
MR PIENAAR: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And within the prescribed time you handed up an application to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, as it appears in the bundle from page 30, is that correct?
MR PIENAAR: That is correct.
MR PRINSLOO: And the facts are explained in your application, do you confirm the contents thereof?
MR PIENAAR: Yes, I do.
MR PRINSLOO: As well as the political background which is given?
MR PIENAAR: That is correct.
MR PRINSLOO: And previously with other applications, Annexure A which explains the background of the South African Police.
MR PIENAAR: That's correct.
MR PRINSLOO: And do you ask that this be incorporated into your application?
MR PIENAAR: Yes, I do.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Pienaar, you on instruction of Brig Visser, following up on information from your fellow applicant, Mr Deetlefs, went to Swaziland and there you abducted the victim, Mr Mosiane and three others.
MR PIENAAR: Chairperson, I actually went on instruction of Mr Deetlefs and he and Colonel - I met Colonel Visser and Mr Deetlefs at the border post and then we went to Swaziland.
MR PRINSLOO: And from there you went to this specific police station?
MR PIENAAR: That is correct, that is the Bunja Police Station.
MR PRINSLOO: And there these four persons were detained.
MR PIENAAR: That is correct.
MR PRINSLOO: And with the breaking out of these persons, was any violence used against the Swazi Police?
MR PIENAAR: No, no force was used.
MR PRINSLOO: And after you had removed these four persons from the police station, did you place Mr Mosiane in your vehicle along with another person?
MR PIENAAR: That is correct, Chairperson. I think the other person was James, I'm not entirely certain. Mr Mosiane was with someone else in our vehicle, with me and Mr Deetlefs. We did find Mr Mosiane with leg-irons at the police station and we took him away with the leg-irons. We also attached a rope to his neck and attached it to the vehicle's handbrake, in order to prevent him from escaping because we were driving through a forest. We crossed into the RSA, crossing over a fence, the border fence.
MR PRINSLOO: So you left Swaziland illegally without going through the border post?
MR PIENAAR: We went into Swaziland through the border post and we came out not using the border post, that's correct Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And while Mr Mosiane was in the vehicle and the other person, was he told that he would be shot if he did not cooperate, or anything to that effect?
MR PIENAAR: That is entirely possible, yes.
MR PRINSLOO: And Mr Deetlefs said that he would kill him and drop him right there next to the road.
MR PIENAAR: That is possible, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And was Mr Mosiane then taken to Piet Retief Police Station?
MR PIENAAR: Yes, he was taken to Piet Retief Station, where later he was detained under Section 29.
MR PRINSLOO: As well as the other person?
MR PIENAAR: Yes, that is correct.
MR PRINSLOO: What happened to Mr Mosiane afterwards?
MR PIENAAR: After his detention in Piet Retief he was taken away by head office. I don't know where else he was detained, but he later ended up at Vlakplaas, where he worked in C1, under Col de Kock.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you at any stage take him to a place in the East Rand?
MR PIENAAR: Yes, Chairperson. I think it was the following day after we broke them out of Swaziland, Mr Mosiane took myself and Mr Deetlefs to Springs, where he allegedly would have pointed out a weapons cache point. The first afternoon he could not find the place, but the following morning he pointed out the place to us, where the dead letter box had been established, allegedly by Mr Klaas de Jongh and someone by the name of Pastoors. We took the weapons, it included components for two vehicle bombs which were meant for a military operation in Boksburg and another one in Springs itself.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Pienaar, under these circumstances you apply for amnesty for abduction, that you had removed Mr Mosiane against his will and detained him against his will, is that correct?
MR PIENAAR: That is correct.
MR PRINSLOO: For unlawful detention.
MR PIENAAR: That is correct.
MR PRINSLOO: And that you had also intimidated him, which might form part of the assault.
MR PIENAAR: That is correct.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you do this for any personal gain?
MR PIENAAR: No, not at all.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you do this out of malice?
MR PIENAAR: No, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you do this in the interest of the South African Police and the government, who you served at that stage?
MR PIENAAR: Yes, I did.
MR PRINSLOO: And it has slipped my mind now, you also apply that you had entered the Republic unlawfully and had left Swaziland unlawfully.
MR PIENAAR: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Prinsloo. Ms van DER Walt, any cross-examination?
MS VAN DER WALT: No cross-examination.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Richard.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Thank you, Chair.
Sir, would you be able to describe Mr Mosiane's physical condition when you found him in the police cell in Swaziland. Was he injured or uninjured.
MR PIENAAR: As far as I can recall he was not injured, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: And if he were to say that he had already been assaulted by the Royal Swazi Police, would you dispute his allegation?
MR PIENAAR: I cannot dispute that.
MR RICHARD: The second point is, is it not correct that the method by which he was restrained in the car was that a rope was tied round his neck and the other end to the handbrake of the car.
MR MALAN: That was his evidence, Mr Richard.
MR RICHARD: Now my last question. You used the word "possible", you do not dispute that in Mr Mosiane's mind he formed the belief and conviction that if he did not cooperate with you and do what was wished of him, he would, as he says in his statement, disappear.
MR PIENAAR: That is possible yes, Chairperson.
MR RICHARD: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Richard. Mr Prinsloo, before you have any re-examination, I propose that the Panel should also put question, that your re-examination should be fully encompassed in that respect.
MR PRINSLOO: As you please, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Adv Sandi, any questions?
ADV SANDI: No questions Mr Chairman, thank you.
MR MALAN: Just a brief follow-up on the last question. I think it is not only that you will not dispute it that he would form the impression that he would disappear, but that you had the intention to create that impression with him.
MR PIENAAR: With the words that were possible said that "we will shoot you if you do not sit still".
MR MALAN: Yes.
MR PIENAAR: Yes, Chairperson.
MR MALAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: And further that if he didn't want to cooperate with the Security Forces of South Africa, that he would have been also probably charged, if not removed entirely.
MR PIENAAR: Correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any re-examination, Mr Prinsloo?
MR PRINSLOO: No re-examination, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Pienaar, you are excused.
MR PIENAAR: Thank you, Chairperson.
WITNESS EXCUSED
VOORSITTER: "Is u nou aan die woord, mnr Prinsloo."
MNR PRINSLOO: Ja, Edelagbare.
VOORSITTER: Dankie.
MR PRINSLOO: The next applicant Mr Chairman, is Mr Deetlefs.
