D BAKER: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, Mr Chair.
Mr Baker, you compiled your initial application for amnesty from page 44 of the bundle, bundle 1, up to page 50, which was the initial abbreviated version that you filed, is that correct?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VAN DER MERWE: Then you also supplied the Truth Commission with a more comprehensive application which is contained in the bundle up to page 77, plus annexures which fill the rest of the bundle, is that correct?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VAN DER MERWE: Do you confirm the correctness of these applications as they are before this Committee here today?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VAN DER MERWE: The main part of your application can be found on pages 67 and further. To be brief I'm not going to lead you through all your evidence, you have heard the evidence here regarding the function that was held where I've already said that you were present, do you confirm that?
MR BAKER: Yes, Mr Chairman.
MR VAN DER MERWE: At this function you went to, can you just tell the Committee who you travelled with to go there?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I drove Brig Schoon and Col de Kock to the function.
MR VAN DER MERWE: At the function did you take part in any discussions regarding a problem askari or person in Boputhatswana? Do you have any knowledge of those discussions?
MR BAKER: No, Mr Chairman.
MR VAN DER MERWE: When is the first time you were involved and asked to take part in any operation of this kind?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, the first time I heard mention of a problem was on the journey back, it was a discussion between Mr de Kock and Brig Schoon and Mr de Kock said words to the effect that why is it necessary for us to always have to sort out other people's problems. Brig Schoon's reply to that was simply that "It's the nature of our work, but we'll discuss it later", and the discussion did not continue on that vein.
CHAIRPERSON: At that stage you did not know that you are going to eventually participate.
MR BAKER: No, Mr Chairman.
MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, Mr Chair.
Now at some later stage you were informed by Col de Kock that you had to join Ras on an operation, is that correct?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VAN DER MERWE: You then received a full briefing from Ras regarding the operation that had to be carried out.
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman. As far as I can remember, Ras was already in the Western Transvaal, Boputhatswana and that I went to join him there.
MR VAN DER MERWE: And you confirm then also as per your application on page 71, that you commenced with the elimination of the cadre who you had in your possession.
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VAN DER MERWE: You never reported back to anyone in this regard, is that correct?
MR BAKER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VAN DER MERWE: You assumed that Ras - well, you were informed by Ras later that he completed the report-back to de Kock.
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VAN DER MERWE: At the time that you were involved in this operation, your political objective, you confirm that you were under the impression that you had to protect the State's intelligence gathering capacity, is that correct?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VAN DER MERWE: And that you acted under the instructions of Col de Kock, your Commander at that stage.
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VAN DER MERWE: Do you have anything else to add?
MR BAKER: No, Mr Chairman.
MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Baker, is it correct that there was a very close cooperation between the Bop Intelligence Services and the Security Police of the Republic of South Africa at the time?
MR HATTINGH IS VIRTUALLY INAUDIBLE - PROBLEM WITH HIS MICROPHONE
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR HATTINGH: You both considered the ANC and the PAC as your enemies.
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR HATTINGH: And did the Bop Intelligence Services furnish you with information if it affected the security of the Republic of South Africa?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR HATTINGH: And you did likewise for them. You did the same for them.
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR HATTINGH: Do you also confirm that when you received this person from the ...(intervention)
MR VAN DER MERWE: I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman, my client's struggling to hear, may we just get earpieces for him please.
MR HATTINGH: ...(inaudible) Is it also - do you confirm the version of Mr Ras that when you received this person whom you subsequently killed, that he was handcuffed?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR HATTINGH: And did that strike as strange or unusual?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, the fact that I'd already been informed by Mr Ras at that stage that he was to be eliminated, the fact that he was handcuffed went to prove that he wasn't coming for a visit.
MR HATTINGH: From whom did you receive this person?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I've heard in evidence today, I was not sure who handed the person over, I've heard evidence that it was Mr Corrier, so I will concede ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: What you're trying to say is you didn't know that person who handed him over.
MR BAKER: I couldn't remember who had handed him over to us.
MR HATTINGH: Can you perhaps assist us with the nature of the function that you attended that evening? Was it indeed a farewell party for Brig Schoon, or what is your recollection?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, my recollection of the function was that it was a normal function. Why I say that, we had - Western Transvaal gave Brig Schoon a farewell function at Nietverdiendt at a later stage and I considered the function as a, how should I say it, a cooperation-type function, people thanking each other for the cooperation they've given each other, type of thing.
MR HATTINGH: So your recollection is that the farewell party for Brig Schoon took place at a different venue, is that correct?
MR BAKER: At a different venue and at a later stage, Mr Chairman.
MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen.
MR JANSEN: Thank you, Chair. Jansen on record, I have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN
MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you're excused.
MR BAKER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other witnesses from the applicants' side?
MR HATTINGH: Not from our side, thank you Mr Chairman.
MR JANSEN: No, Chair.
MR VAN DER MERWE: No, thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, any witnesses?
MS PATEL: No, thank you Honourable Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So is that the end of the evidence?
MS PATEL: It appears so.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, have you got any argument on this matter?
MS PATEL: No, Honourable Chairperson, I will leave it in your hands.
CHAIRPERSON: Fortunately it's not such a weighty thing to leave in my hands, so we don't need you people to argue.
I'll reserve the decision on this matter, it will be handed down in due course. Is that the roll for the week, Ms Patel?
MS PATEL: It appears so, Honourable Chairperson, definitely.
CHAIRPERSON: If things weren't so bad I'd look forward to a cricket game now. Can't even do that.
HEARING ADJOURNS
