WYBRAND ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE: As it pleases you, Chairperson.
Mr du Toit, your application is contained in the second bundle which was provided, but if we look at the paginated pages of my bundle, it's from page 71 as far as page 112, is that correct?
MR DU TOIT: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VAN DER MERWE: You confirm the entire content of this application as it is contained here and also the correctness thereof.
MR DU TOIT: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VAN DER MERWE: The specific part which is important for this application is contained in pages 108 and 109 of this bundle, is that correct?
MR DU TOIT: That's correct.
MR VAN DER MERWE: I will just take you through that very quickly. At this point in time you on various occasions had adjusted these types of watches to act as switches, electronic switches, is that correct?
MR DU TOIT: That's correct.
MR VAN DER MERWE: And the utilisation of these electric switches was for the purposes of enabling bomb operators like here, to train the people who were operating in that field and various ancillary functions relating to explosives.
MR DU TOIT: Correct, Chairperson.
MR VAN DER MERWE: You had absolutely nothing to do with the planning and anything prior to this operation, is that correct?
MR DU TOIT: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VAN DER MERWE: After this operation you were told by Dirk Coetzee that he had used some of these mechanisms in an operation in Swaziland, which is this operation currently before the Committee, is that correct?
MR DU TOIT: Correct, Chairperson.
MR VAN DER MERWE: You then saw this operation as a political operation, you decided not to do anything about this and kept your knowledge to yourself, is that correct?
MR DU TOIT: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VAN DER MERWE: And in the last paragraph on page 109 of the application, you say that you were not aware that these switches were used in an offence way at that stage, is that correct?
MR DU TOIT: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VAN DER MERWE: The fact that you didn't talk about this is as a result of the fact that you regarded this operation as one which fell within the ambit of a political act or action by the Security Police against the ANC abroad.
MR DU TOIT: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE
MS VAN DER WALT: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT
MR PRINSLOO: No questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO
MS MAKHUBELE: None.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS MAKHUBELE
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Toit, did you know what these watches were to be used for?
MR DU TOIT: Yes, Chairperson. As I said earlier, the watches were normally used for training purposes for bomb disposal operatives.
CHAIRPERSON: No I know, but were you aware that the watches in this case were to be used to blow up a house in which people could be killed?
MR DU TOIT: No, I had no recollection that anybody came to fetch it from me for that kind of purpose.
CHAIRPERSON: But generally speaking, did you know that such a watch could be used or was used for these kinds of operations?
MR DU TOIT: I didn't know about specific operations.
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I'm not talking about specific operations.
MR DU TOIT: I was aware that such a mechanism could be used for such a purpose.
CHAIRPERSON: And you associated yourself with that purpose?
MR DU TOIT: Yes, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And you realised that people could be killed?
MR DU TOIT: Yes, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And you reconciled yourself with that possibility?
MR DU TOIT: Yes, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And also that buildings could be damaged?
MR DU TOIT: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe, what is your client asking for amnesty for?
MR VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson, I'm of the view that he was not involved in the conspiracy itself, but that my client was an accessory after the fact to the crimes for which the other applicants are asking for amnesty and that by virtue of the fact that he became aware ex post facto of the fact that these mechanisms had been used and that as a police officer he did nothing further to reveal this offence or crime. So that would be being an accessory after the fact.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.
He prepared a mechanism which he knew was to be used for the purposes of blowing up something, in which people could be killed and he associated himself with that.
MR VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson, I will leave it in the hands of the Committee.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any contradictory or opposing argument on that?
MR VAN DER MERWE: There's a slight semantic difference, I don't think it's really important ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: If it's not romantic, that's fine.
MR VAN DER MERWE: My client's instructions are that at the point when, or at the stage when he made these things it was for a bona fide utilisation, namely for the training of bomb and bomb explosives and bomb disposal ...(intervention)
INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
MR VAN DER MERWE: For the simple reason that he was aware after this incident of the fact that these watches had been used for offensive purposes outside the borders of the country, in which people were killed and there was damage to property and he did nothing about that. As a police officer he had knowledge of that. Obstructing the course of justice, perhaps being an accessory after the fact. ...(intervention)
INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
MR VAN DER MERWE: ... in that he committed an omissio, he did nothing.
CHAIRPERSON: Are we not pushing it a bit too far when you say accessory after the fact? An accessory after the fact is in my view, a person who does something positive to associate himself with an act.
MR VAN DER MERWE: Yes, Chairperson, now we're going to lapse into a very legal technical discussion, but the act of being an accessory after the fact can also be constituted by an omissio. There are other duties which a policeman has when he becomes aware of an offence or a crime, so there was a duty on Mr du Toit to actually make known this offence. When he became aware of it he didn't do that and by his omission he helped other people who had committed an offence, to evade justice.
CHAIRPERSON: I hear what you say.
MR VAN DER MERWE: I may just add perhaps at this stage, for the Committee's benefit, Mr du Toit drafted this application by himself, without legal assistance.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm asking you as a legal representative to help me. What deeds or what offences should we think of an consider in terms of your client's application?
MR VAN DER MERWE: I think it's six of one, half a dozen of the other whether it's defeating the ends of justice or being an accessory, but somewhere between the two one will find the truth and of course then delictual liability as well.
CHAIRPERSON: But if he gets amnesty, then he gets it for the delictual liability as well.
Thank you, you may be excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Are there any applicants?
MS VAN DER WALT: No, no further witnesses or applicants from my side.
MR VAN DER MERWE: None, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: No evidence.
MS MAKHUBELE: I will only call Mrs Hlubi, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Hlubi, which language would you prefer to use?
MS HLUBI: I prefer to use English, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Are you comfortable with English?
MS HLUBI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you any objection to the taking of the oath?
VALERIE HLUBI: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.
EXAMINATION BY MS MAKHUBELE: Mrs Hlubi, you stay in Swaziland, which part of Swaziland to be exact?
MS HLUBI: I stay in Manzini.
MS MAKHUBELE: Your address?
MS HLUBI: You mean my residential address?
MS MAKHUBELE: Physical, yes.
MS HLUBI: I stay in Manzini, Extension 1, Zakele, Mazibuko Street, Plot 122.
CHAIRPERSON: In 1980 your house was damaged?
MS HLUBI: Pardon?
CHAIRPERSON: Your house was damaged during 1980.
MS HLUBI: Yes, it was on the 4th of June 1980.
CHAIRPERSON: By virtue of a bomb exploding.
MS HLUBI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: We are told that a house in that area was used as a transit house for members of the military wing of the African National Congress, and applicants now who were members of the Security Forces at the time of South Africa, indicate that a bomb was planted at that house that they regarded as a transit house, have you got any comments about that?
MS HLUBI: What I know about this house is that it is just next to my house. My house is in plot 122 and the house that was occupied by these ANC men was in plot number 123.
CHAIRPERSON: What colour was your house painted?
MS HLUBI: My house was painted white.
CHAIRPERSON: And the house that you refer to as a transit house, what colour was that?
MS HLUBI: You mean the one next to me? It was painted cream/white.
CHAIRPERSON: And the other side of you?
MS HLUBI: Which one now?
CHAIRPERSON: 121.
MS HLUBI: 124.
CHAIRPERSON: You were 122?
MS HLUBI: Yes, 122.
CHAIRPERSON: And 123 was a cream/white house.
MS HLUBI: Yes, cream/white house.
CHAIRPERSON: 121?
MS HLUBI: 121 is my neighbour.
CHAIRPERSON: What colour house was that?
MS HLUBI: I cannot recall the colour.
CHAIRPERSON: Was that perhaps also all white? You can't say?
MS HLUBI: Ja, I can't say.
CHAIRPERSON: Anyway you say your house was damaged.
MS HLUBI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you explain or describe the damage of your house?
MS HLUBI: Okay, I was not there when it was damaged because I was working in Babane, my mother was staying in the house with the little boy of about five years. So when I was at work in the morning at about 8 o'clock, I received a call that I must rush home, something has happened. Then I had to ask for permission. I rushed home. When I reached home I discovered that my house was blown out. There was no roof and the walls were greatly damaged. There were big cracks and inside the house there was no furniture. Curtains were blown out. The house was just in ruins. There was nothing that could be valuable found in there.
CHAIRPERSON: And did anybody die in your house?
MS HLUBI: In my house nobody died, my mother was safe and the boy got out safe.
CHAIRPERSON: And did anything happen to the cream/white house?
MS HLUBI: So when I got there they told me one person died in the ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: In that house?
MS HLUBI: No, in the cream/white house where the ANC people used to stay. Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: What was the condition of that house, how did that look? How did the damage look there, if there was any?
MS HLUBI: Well it was also blown out and the other side of the house which was just next to mine was blown out, down. The walls were down.
CHAIRPERSON: And in your case the walls weren't down?
MS HLUBI: No, the walls were not down. The roof was out, it was blown out, the whole of it.
CHAIRPERSON: As I understand it, it seems to me - are you saying that there was more damage to the cream/white house than to your house?
MS HLUBI: There was a lot of damage even in my house because ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I accept that, but if you take the two houses together, which was more damaged?
MS HLUBI: Both of them.
CHAIRPERSON: The one you say had the roof ...(intervention)
MS HLUBI: Yes, the cream/white one was also blown out.
CHAIRPERSON: And its walls were down, some of its walls were down?
MS HLUBI: Yes, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And in the cream/white house, were the windows broken?
MS HLUBI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And the curtains blown out?
MS HLUBI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And in your house your curtains were blown out, your windows were broken and the roof blown out?
MS HLUBI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: What with the walls?
MS HLUBI: The walls were cracked.
CHAIRPERSON: Cracked?
MS HLUBI: They had big cracks, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Carry on.
MS MAKHUBELE: Were there any other damages to neighbouring properties, or was it just your own?
MS HLUBI: The other side which was on plot 121, the doors were damaged and the windows also.
MS MAKHUBELE: Anything else? Plot 124, for example.
MS HLUBI: I'm not very sure about plot 124. What I knew is that in the morning when they opened the doors they found the head and the arm in front of the door, of the victim that was staying in number 123.
MS MAKHUBELE: The body was found in plot 124?
MS HLUBI: Yes, the arm and the head and the remains were inside the house, 123.
MS MAKHUBELE: Were you housing any activists? Were there any political organisation from South Africa?
MS HLUBI: In my house?
MS MAKHUBELE: Yes.
MS HLUBI: No, there wasn't.
MS MAKHUBELE: How far are these houses from each other?
MS HLUBI: Mine and the cream one?
MS MAKHUBELE: Yes.
MS HLUBI: They are about 10 metres away.
MS MAKHUBELE: Have you repaired the damage to your house?
MS HLUBI: Yes, I repaired it. I had to contact my government and plead with them for a loan, then they gave me the loan and then I started to repair it.
CHAIRPERSON: What did it cost you?
MS HLUBI: Pardon?
CHAIRPERSON: What did it cost you to repair the house?
MS HLUBI: It cost me about 33 000.
CHAIRPERSON: What?
MS HLUBI: Rands.
CHAIRPERSON: Rand.
MS HLUBI: Yes, at that time.
MS MAKHUBELE: What's your comment to the applicants' application for amnesty for this incident?
MS HLUBI: Personally I've no right to stop them from applying for amnesty, but what I would like the TRC to do for me, I would like to see justice done in this matter.
MS MAKHUBELE: In which sense? Save for yourself, what would you like?
MS HLUBI: As far as I'm concerned, I'd like to - like as I said before, I tried to look for, or to ask for some compensation. I wrote to some organisations and I failed, nothing came out. What I would like the TRC to do for me is to give some kind of compensation.
CHAIRPERSON: You have a passport?
MS HLUBI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Which country do you carry a passport for?
MS HLUBI: I have a passport for Swaziland.
CHAIRPERSON: And you're a Swaziland citizen?
MS HLUBI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Anything more?
MS MAKHUBELE: That's the evidence-in-chief.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MAKHUBELE
MR VICTOR: I have no questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VICTOR
MR VAN DER MERWE: No questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE
MS VAN DER WALT: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT
MR PRINSLOO: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
WITNESS EXCUSED
MS MAKHUBELE: I have no further witnesses.
ADV STEENKAMP: No further witnesses, thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. We don't need any arguments from anyone. We'll reserve judgment and deliver it as soon as possible.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
