CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, which one are we starting with today?
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, as agreed yesterday it will be the Mnisi matter. The applicants are Mr Steyn, Crause, du Preez Smit and Crause again. Thank you, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, do you appear for all the applicants?
MR VISSER: I do indeed, Chairperson.
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I was initially informed, well I'm still informed that Mr Brian Koopedi was appointed as the legal representative for Mr Mnisi. I spoke to Mr Koopedi yesterday and informed him that the matter will start this morning at nine and he informed me that he will be ready by this morning at nine. I phoned him at five to nine and he informed me that he's not going to appear here on instructions of Mr Mnisi. He has already consulted with Mr Mnisi and the instructions are that Mr Mnisi is not going to attend the hearing, he doesn't wish so. He's not opposing the application and for that reason he's not appearing himself at all. I've indicated to Mr Koopedi that it will be necessary to submit a letter in this regard to you. As soon as that letter is finished, Mr Chairman, I will submit it to you.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Visser.
MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I call the first witness, Mr Crause. There are two brothers and this one is P R Crause, whose application you'll find at page 13 to 20, and we will specifically refer to where he deals with the incident, at page 15 of the bundle. He is available, is ready to take the oath and he wishes to address you in Afrikaans.
P R CRAUSE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.
EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Crause, do you confirm Exhibits A and B and do you request that they be incorporated with your evidence, and do you also confirm the content of your amnesty application as it appears before the Amnesty Committee, subject to the evidence that you will deliver today?
MR P R CRAUSE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I refer you to Exhibit B, and I will refer to the - well it doesn't matter to which one of the page numberings I will refer you to, if it's more convenient I should perhaps refer you to the typed pages because the other page numbers are the Naledi bundle page numbers, but it doesn't matter, whichever is convenient to you.
CHAIRPERSON: Just tell me what you're talking about.
MR VISSER: At page 3 there's a reference to Sello Mnisi ...
CHAIRPERSON: A reference to?
MR VISSER: Sello, S-e-l-l-o Mnisi. We wish to make it clear, Chairperson, that that is not the victim in this particular case, that is a cousin - or it's not a brother, but it's a family relation of Mr Mnisi. At page 5 of Exhibit B you'll find a reference to Mr Johannes Mnisi, from which it will appear that his MK name was Victor. That's in paragraph 5, page 5.
CHAIRPERSON: Before you carry on, Mr Visser, there seems to be a bit of confusion as to the spelling of the name of the deceased, are you able to give us the proper spelling?
MR VISSER: Yes. First of all Chairperson, he's not deceased, he's very much alive, but it's - yes, the victim, but it's M-n-i-s-i. To be distinguished from Mr Msibi, who is an entirely different person, M-s-i-b-i. He was a person who was an operative in Swaziland and not in Botswana. He's not the victim. But there has been a lot of confusion between the two.
Chairperson, I just want to point out the page numbers for your own reference in Exhibit B, where he is mentioned. 5, as I stated and then page 6 of Exhibit B and then the last reference is page 9 - I'm sorry, again there's a confusion here because the one at page 9 is not the victim, it is Sello. I just wanted to make that clear, so that you don't become confused.
Mr Crause, could we firstly discuss the date of these events, because in your application you stated that the date was unknown to you. Were you capable of determining a date for when this incident occurred?
INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.
MR P R CRAUSE: ...(no audible reply)
MR VISSER: And how did you ...(intervention)
INTERPRETER: I could not hear the speaker properly, his voice was very feint.
MR VISSER: Could you repeat what you said, so that it can come through.
MR P R CRAUSE: It had to have been July/August ...(intervention)
INTERPRETER: The speaker's voice is still very feint, the Interpreter is afraid that she might not be able to hear him properly.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF - PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES
MR VISSER: If we may then proceed, Chairperson. Perhaps you should just repeat for the record. Were you capable of determining the date for when these incidents took place?
MR P R CRAUSE: Yes, Chairperson, it had to have been approximately July or August 1986 when I was approached. I determined this by means of information which I obtained from Brig Loots yesterday, indicating that the explosion had taken place in the eleventh month of 1986 and this incident where I was approached took place approximately three months before the explosion. ...(transcriber's interpretation)
MR VISSER: Before you get to this could you tell us, before July 1986, were you familiar with the person, Mr Johannes Mnisi?
MR P R CRAUSE: Yes, he was known to me as a Commander of Special Operations of MK.
MR VISSER: And where did he operate?
MR P R CRAUSE: He operated from Lusaka, but from time to time he also operated from within Botswana.
MR VISSER: Was he an important figure in the struggle of the past?
MR P R CRAUSE: Yes, very important.
MR VISSER: And did you collect information regarding him, or did you attempt to gather information regarding his activities in Botswana?
MR P R CRAUSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR VISSER: And over a period of time you provided that information to other members of the security community.
MR P R CRAUSE: Yes, it was reported as such to them, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And indeed then also to Special Forces?
MR P R CRAUSE: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Let me ask you this, this information that you collected and distributed, particularly to Special Forces, for what purpose was this done?
MR P R CRAUSE: It was with the objective of being able to determine his whereabouts and consequently being able to eliminate him.
MR VISSER: To eliminate him. Very well. You say that you were approached, can you elaborate on this please?
MR P R CRAUSE: It was approximately July or August 1986, when I received a visit from Capt Frans Harmse. Capt Harmse at that stage was attached to the Security Branch, Pretoria.
MR VISSER: Which area?
MR P R CRAUSE: It was for the Pretoria/Northern Transvaal area.
MR VISSER: And your position at that stage, what was it?
MR P R CRAUSE: I was the Branch Commander of the Security Branch in Zeerust.
MR VISSER: And he paid you a visit, what then?
MR P R CRAUSE: He then informed me that Johannes Mnisi had requested a certain source of theirs to obtain a vehicle for him, Mnisi, for his use in Botswana and that this vehicle was then equipped by himself or members of his security structure, with explosives ...
CHAIRPERSON: Who is this?
MR P R CRAUSE: This is Capt Harmse who informed me.
CHAIRPERSON: What did he and his colleagues doe?
MR P R CRAUSE: It was with the cooperation of the SADF that an explosive device was placed in this particular vehicle which would have been sent to Mr Mnisi, which would have been able to be detonated by means of remote control, and the vehicle was also equipped with a tapping device. In other words a transmitter, so that one could monitor conversations in the vehicle.
MR VISSER: And what did Harmse want to know from you, or what did he want from you?
MR P R CRAUSE: Harmse's request to us was that we would have to provide them with a facility near the Botswana border, from which point they would be able to erect radio equipment and monitor any discussions.
Perhaps I could also mention that the planning, as he put it to me, Chairperson, was firstly to monitor discussions in the vehicle and if it could be determined that Mnisi was indeed in the vehicle, the device would be detonated.
MR VISSER: Did you also foresee within this scheme that other persons could also be present in the vehicle along with Mr Mnisi, who would also be killed?
MR P R CRAUSE: It could not have been different.
MR VISSER: Did you associate yourself and did you agree with the action?
MR P R CRAUSE: Yes, completely.
MR VISSER: And in terms of this request from Harmse, what did you do?
MR P R CRAUSE: Firstly, I notified my Commander in Potchefstoom, I informed him of the request that I had received from Capt Harmse and he informed me that I should continue and that I should have staff available, along with a premises from which the vehicle could be monitored.
MR VISSER: What would members of your branch have done in participation in this operation?
MR P R CRAUSE: They would have assisted with the monitoring of discussions in the vehicle.
MR VISSER: With what purposes would this have occurred?
MR P R CRAUSE: It was in order to collect information. And perhaps I could also mention at this stage that the person whom I deployed or assigned were Capt du Preez Smit and Frik Crause.
MR VISSER: Is Frik Crause related to you?
MR P R CRAUSE: Yes he is my brother, he was a staff member with me.
MR VISSER: And where was he in the rank structure?
MR P R CRAUSE: I'm speaking under correction but I do believe that he was a Warrant Officer.
MR VISSER: But he was fairly lower down in the structure.
MR P R CRAUSE: Yes, he was.
MR VISSER: And du Preez Smit was also below you?
MR P R CRAUSE: Yes, that is correct, at that stage he was a Lieutenant.
CHAIRPERSON: Who was the second person, Frik Crause and who else?
MR P R CRAUSE: Frik Crause and du Preez Smit.
MR VISSER: Both of them are fellow applicants of yours in this matter.
MR P R CRAUSE: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Very well. You state that that you made a premises available, where and what was it?
MR P R CRAUSE: It was a safehouse which we possessed near the Koffiefontein border post.
MR VISSER: And was any radio transmission or reception equipment erected there?
MR P R CRAUSE: Yes.
MR VISSER: By whom?
MR P R CRAUSE: By Special Forces, their experts conducted this.
MR VISSER: And who manned the radio there?
MR P R CRAUSE: I must just mention that I visited the place periodically, I wasn't there permanently, but the person whom I met there was a person who was known to me as Pierre.
MR VISSER: You cannot recall his surname?
MR P R CRAUSE: No.
MR VISSER: Very well. And the two men from your branch or your division that you deployed, Smit and your brother Crause, they were alternately in order to monitor the situation to see whether or not information could be collected from discussions taking place in the motor vehicle.
MR P R CRAUSE: Let me just explain it as such, for two or three days after the monitoring of the discussions commenced, I received feedback from them indicating that discussions had indeed taken place. After that the discussions ceased and there were no further discussions for the following three months and in that period they periodically visited the place.
MR VISSER: When the discussions ceased, what was the idea then, what happened?
MR P R CRAUSE: We suspected that the vehicle had either travelled beyond the reception area or had travelled north to Zambia, outside of Botswana.
MR VISSER: And during these three months, do you know ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Or perhaps the device was discovered?
MR P R CRAUSE: Yes we were not entirely aware of what had happened to the motor vehicle.
MR VISSER: Or perhaps it had exploded?
MR P R CRAUSE: That was also a possibility, but I have an idea that if it had exploded in Botswana we would have known about it.
MR VISSER: During this three month period do you know whether or not Special Forces searched for the vehicle in Botswana?
MR P R CRAUSE: As I understood they did conduct a search.
MR VISSER: Yes, we will hear later from Mr Smit that they conducted and aerial search as well.
MR P R CRAUSE: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And what was the following thing that you heard?
MR P R CRAUSE: This would be approximately in the eleventh month. One Sunday morning I received a telephonic message from Gen Steyn, in which he informed me that he had heard over the news that a certain vehicle had exploded at a hospital at Mochudi, Botswana, he wanted me to establish exactly what had taken place there, what had been there and who had been involved.
MR VISSER: Who was that?
MR P R CRAUSE: Gen Steyn. On a Sunday morning he contacted me and informed me ...
MR VISSER: Just proceed.
MR P R CRAUSE: ... and informed me that he had heard over the news that an explosion of a vehicle had taken place near a hospital in Mochudi.
MR VISSER: Just spell that please.
MR P R CRAUSE: It was at Mochudi, M-o-c-h-u-d-i.
MR VISSER: In your application on page 16 you state that the names of the victims are unknown to you and so forth and that everything else is unknown to you and under (b) you also state that it is unknown to you whether any person was injured or killed or whether any damage was brought to property.
MR P R CRAUSE: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Is that your knowledge still today?
MR P R CRAUSE: Later I heard that persons had indeed been killed and injured.
MR VISSER: Can you say how many persons were killed and how many were injured?
MR P R CRAUSE: Unfortunately not. I heard that one was killed, but I cannot say with certainty.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, we have attempted to obtain information in this regard and we were unsuccessful, but the recollection is that one or two persons, perhaps even three were killed and if my recollection ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: What's he making application for?
MR VISSER: Well Chairperson, on the evidence he made himself guilty of conspiracy and being an accessory before the fact to murder and it is clear, it follows that ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Then it doesn't seem to matter whether there was a fatality or not thereafter?
MR VISSER: That would be my submission. And of course with the car that they were going to explode, also malicious damage to property, the problem there ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)
MR VISSER: Well, the problem there is it was the motorcar belonging either to Special Forces or to the Police. So it's a moot point whether - but we believe Chairperson, that chances were ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: I'm not going to get into it but if you're on the track to say they couldn't have committed the crime in respect of their own property, it is fatally wrong because actually it's not their property, it's public property. But we'll leave it at that, I appreciate what you're saying.
MR VISSER: No I was just going to submit as a submission, that it wouldn't have been the Police's, it's would have been the State's property, so it would still be a crime to commit. So in both those instances, Chairperson. And then again, the issue of defeating the ends of justice, which we've dealt with before and any other offence or delict.
CHAIRPERSON: This applicant was not in possession of any explosives? That was a fait accompli when he was told about ...(indistinct)
MR VISSER: Yes, in fact the vehicle as I - when you were approached by Harms - I just want to ask him that to make sure. When you were approached by Harmse, do you know whether or not the vehicle was still in the Republic or was it in Botswana?
MR P R CRAUSE: As far as he told me the source had already departed on his way to Botswana with the vehicle.
MR VISSER: You had nothing further to do with it?
MR P R CRAUSE: That is correct.
MR VISSER: ...(inaudible)
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: ... Mnisi, you say you had information concerning his - or collected information concerning his activities.
MR P R CRAUSE: That is correct, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: According to your evidence the decision to kill him had already been made when you were informed that that was the plan.
MR P R CRAUSE: Yes, it was the planning, it was decided before that he will be a target. Let me put it this way.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you part of that decision?
MR P R CRAUSE: Yes, I was part of the decision, I would have supported it. I was part of the decision.
CHAIRPERSON: When was this?
MR P R CRAUSE: It was a meeting, probably just after the Church Street bomb in 1983, where we received information.
CHAIRPERSON: So when Harmse got to you he knew that you had knowledge of the reasons to kill Mnisi? ...(transcriber's interpretation)
MR P R CRAUSE: Correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And you knew that he knew? It was not strange that he came to you?
MR P R CRAUSE: No, it wasn't strange at all.
CHAIRPERSON: It was just the manner in which he would be killed that they decided. ...(transcriber's interpretation)
MR P R CRAUSE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: You agreed with that?
MR P R CRAUSE: Yes, I agreed with that.
CHAIRPERSON: Why was he targeted and killed?
MR P R CRAUSE: Can you just repeat your question please.
CHAIRPERSON: Why was he seen as a target?
MR P R CRAUSE: He was involved in various acts of sabotage, he was a Commander of Special Operations of the ANC and they were involved in acts of larger sabotage actions.
CHAIRPERSON: And you knew about this?
MR P R CRAUSE: Yes, we knew about this. I think every member of the Security Branch was aware of this.
CHAIRPERSON: Over what period did you collect this information?
MR P R CRAUSE: I was at Zeerust from 1971 and I think came under our attention from 1979 onwards. The problem was that he only periodically came down from Botswana and he moved around in a covert way. He initiated operations, completed operations and we had problems, or we found it difficult to find out where he was.
CHAIRPERSON: Why did it take so long to execute such a plan?
MR P R CRAUSE: This was a perfect time to do it, he requested a vehicle ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you didn't have the opportunity to do it before?
MR P R CRAUSE: No, we did not have the opportunity.
CHAIRPERSON: You didn't then consider to send in the Special Forces of the Defence Force to deal with this?
MR P R CRAUSE: That was our problem, Mr Chairperson. As I said, he only came down periodically.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm talking about in Botswana.
MR P R CRAUSE: Yes, I'm talking about Botswana. We did not know, we did not have vehicle particulars, we did not have detail of where he lived, where he was at that stage.
CHAIRPERSON: Over this period of six years you never knew?
MR P R CRAUSE: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR P R CRAUSE: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR VISSER: I call Mr Smit, Chairperson. His application you will find at page 21 to 31 of the bundle.
