MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, the next matter which I intended calling now is that of Mr Noosi but unfortunately, Mr Maseko who was here yesterday and who indicated that he would be attending this hearing, is not here and we have endeavoured to phone him and the report I've just received is that he says he is in Johannesburg, his mother has just passed away. But he has indicated that by 1 o'clock he would be here.
In the meantime, there is a matter which can be called but the problem with that one is that the victims have not been located up to this point.
JUDGE DE JAGER: But you've advertised for victims. Is there anything more you could do to trace the victims? Can anybody point a finger at you or at the TRC that they didn't do enough to try and trace the victims?
MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, as you correctly say, we have advertised and we have made investigations about these victims whom we could not identify at this point in time and in the circumstances, Chairperson, I mean we could not find and in the circumstances, I may submit, Sir, that indeed all that is reasonable has been done.
CHAIRPERSON: Which case is this, which application?
MR MAPOMA: Mandlazi, that's matter AM5095/97, that is B.
JUDGE DE JAGER: That's B?
MR MAPOMA: Yes and Matlaletsa is also here, that's AM5096/97 which is C. We can deal with those matters in the meantime.
JUDGE DE JAGER: You see, the trouble is it's probably the last time or the last opportunity we have to hear applications in Pretoria. We're winding up now the work of the Committee. In all probability we won't come back to Pretoria unless it's for a part heard thing so we must try and finish it and if victims would come forward later they would have the records available and they could, if there's still time, make representations if it's after we've given a decision of course it would be too late.
MR MAPOMA: Yes I appreciate, Chairperson, in fact I agree.
JUDGE DE JAGER: So you propose to start with?
MR MAPOMA: I propose calling Mandlazi, S M Mandlazi.
MR KOOPEDI: I would say, Chairperson, that we had thought that we would start with Mr Noosi's matter so I would need just a few minutes to finalise certain things with Mr Mandlazi but whilst I'm on the floor, I wish also to state that matter number 3, the matter of Matlaletsa, the applicant was here and he has instructed me to withdraw his application, Chairperson. He feels that he is not psychologically fit to go through the application, he feels that he has also served his sentence in this matter and basically that he is withdrawing his application.
CHAIRPERSON: Anyone have anything further to say in this regard?
MR MAPOMA: Nothing Chairperson.
MR SIBANYONI: You say he has served his sentence. Was he convicted?
MR KOOPEDI: That is indeed so, he was convicted in a Tanzanian court and served a sentence, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well, the application of K N Matlaletsa is withdrawn.
JUDGE DE JAGER: You haven't got other any further withdrawals, perhaps?
MR KOOPEDI: No, not at this stage, Chairperson. I might have, I don't know but at this stage I don't.
I also believe that another matter which can be done easily and quickly is matter number 7, that one of S M Mangena. The facts are very straightforward and it's not a matter that can take forever and my submission would be that in the instances where victims cannot be located, I would ask that we proceed with the matters if this would not cause any prejudice and if the victim is found at some stage a transcript will be provided to the victim for the victim to make further representations to yourselves.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Are you ready to proceed with any one of them without further consultation or should we adjourn for a few minutes?
MR KOOPEDI: I would appreciate the few minutes adjournment, Chairperson, so that I can prepare the next applicant.
JUDGE DE JAGER: The next one will then be? Mandlazi?
MR KOOPEDI: Mandlazi, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Mangena, has the ANC been asked to assist in finding the victim?
MR KOOPEDI: Not to my knowledge, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: He was a member, wasn't he?
MR KOOPEDI: Yes but my instructions are that at some stage he deserted the ANC and they don't know what...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Well - so there have been some enquiries because I'm just glancing at the papers now, I see he is described as a mutineer. Okay, we'll adjourn for a few minutes.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson, I'm indebted.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Right, what are we going to continue with now?
MR KOOPEDI: Matter number B Chairperson. The applicant is Samuel Mandenkosi Mandlazi, he is ready to be sworn in.
SAMUEL MANDENKOSI MANDLAZI: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Mr Mandlazi, is it correct that you are appearing here today in an amnesty application which involves one Sizwe Mabaso?
MR MANDLAZI: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: I am showing to you now a document, page 24 Chairperson, of the bundle of documents. Is this document your application form?
MR MANDLAZI: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: And on page 29, in fact, which is page 6 of that form, there is a signature. Is that your signature?
MR MANDLAZI: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Now at the time when this assault occurred, were you a member of a political organisation?
MR MANDLAZI: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: If you were a member of a political organisation, what political organisation was it?
MR MANDLAZI: African National Congress.
MR KOOPEDI: Now would you briefly tell this Committee, when did this assault on Mr Sizwe Mabaso occur.
MR MANDLAZI: If my memory still serves me well, that was in 1982.
MR KOOPEDI: Now briefly tell this Honourable Committee what you were doing in 1982, where were you and what did you do to Mr Mabaso?
MR MANDLAZI: I was based in Mozambique, Maputo, as a reporting officer there and I was responsible for a safe house where we used to keep our comrades who were either going home or those who were coming back from home and of course this safe house was our - that is, the department of intelligence and security headquarters. I worked under the command of Denmo Hapi who was also known as Stalin, whom unfortunately has passed away and Stalin was the head of the screening team.
Sizwe Mabaso was brought to the safe house for clearance as it was alleged that there were discrepancies between the biographies he had written and further that he was involved in the internal machinery and was responsible for the arrest of Thandi Modise.
Well one night, I can't recall the exact date, I was called by Stalin who was my commander to assist him in the interrogation of Sizwe Mabaso. In the process we beat him, we beat Sizwe and we tied him with a rope. After that night I had no further dealings with Sizwe.
MR KOOPEDI: To what did you - or how did you tie him? Did you tie his hands, his legs?
MR MANDLAZI: We tied his hands and his feet.
MR KOOPEDI: And what was this interrogation all about?
MR MANDLAZI: Well, it was in connection of the arrest of Thandi Modise who was an underground operative and Sizwe happened to be the courier between Thandi Modise and the other units whom I don't know their names. But then when Sizwe arrived in Mozambique or rather first in Swaziland, that's where he first wrote his biography detailing his activities inside the country. But when he arrived in Mozambique he wrote a different version of his biography which did not tally with what he had written in Swaziland about his activities with Thandi Modise and as a result of those two discrepancies in the biography, he was then taken to this safe house for further interrogation in terms of what he had actually been involved in.
MR KOOPEDI: Now after or during this interrogation, what was the reason really for hitting him, for hitting Sizwe?
MR MANDLAZI: Sizwe would not have been beaten had he not been aggressive towards the questions that we were asking him about with regards to the arrest of Thandi Modise because to us it was just unbelievable that a person could work with a person inside the country, be involved in the ferrying of weapons and the contacting of other people and all of a sudden the person is arrested and then he cannot account the arrest of that person.
MR KOOPEDI: When you say he became aggressive, did he threaten you in any way?
MR MANDLAZI: In fact he did hit me and then Stalin called me outside where he said to me let us tie this person and beat him up.
MR KOOPEDI: Now you are asking for amnesty for the part you played in beating him up?
MR MANDLAZI: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Is there anything that you gained materially, personally, for having participated in this interrogation and beating up?
MR MANDLAZI: Nothing that I can, personally.
MR KOOPEDI: Would you say that your involvement, the part that you played was politically motivated?
MR MANDLAZI: Yes it was.
MR KOOPEDI: How, if it was?
MR MANDLAZI: As part of the security establishment then, my task was to secure the members of the ANC wherever they are and it was my responsibility then to make sure that all members of the ANC were free from infiltrators of the then special branch.
MR KOOPEDI: As far as your recollection can assist you, have you told this Honourable Committee, that is have you disclosed all the relevant facts?
MR MANDLAZI: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, that is the evidence-in-chief of this applicant, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Was he injured at all?
MR MANDLAZI: No.
JUDGE DE JAGER: What happened to him?
MR MANDLAZI: The last time I saw him it was when he was removed from a safe house. Well, I'm made to understand he went to Angola.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Do you know whether any recommendations have been made that he should go to a camp in Angola? What happened, why was - was he transferred to Angola, did he go on his own, was he released?
MR MANDLAZI: I take it he was released or taken to Angola for further training in as far as recommendations or anything of that sort, I wouldn't know because I was not responsible for the movement of him.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Were you satisfied after the interrogation that he nothing to do with Thandi's arrest?
MR MANDLAZI: Of course I was not satisfied.
JUDGE DE JAGER: So why should he be released then?
MR MANDLAZI: Well, that was not my discretion to say he should be released or not released because I was just a foot soldier.
JUDGE DE JAGER: So that was ...(intervention)
MR MANDLAZI: The responsibility of Stalin.
JUDGE DE JAGER: I see. And although you had no personal knowledge about it you were informed or heard rumours that he was transferred to Angola?
MR MANDLAZI: Yes.
JUDGE DE JAGER: You've never heard of him again whether he survived or what happened to him?
MR MANDLAZI: I wouldn't know, it's a long time and in fact I never even bothered myself to find out what happened to him.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Was this his real name or was it a pseudo?
MR MANDLAZI: I assume it was.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Under what name did you operate at that time?
MR MANDLAZI: I only know him as Sizwe Mabaso, that's all.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, but you yourself?
MR MANDLAZI: Rex Ombabesi.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Now whilst you were operating under a pseudo, why wouldn't he have operated under a pseudo too?
MR MANDLAZI: That was not responsibility to give people names because I was also given that name.
JUDGE DE JAGER: So you don't know whether this was indeed his correct name?
MR MANDLAZI: No.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Because you see we've or the TRC have made efforts to trace him but they couldn't. It may be because we're not using the correct name?
MR MANDLAZI: Well, I wish I could be of help in that regard but unfortunately I can't. Maybe as a form of assistance I would say if you can contact Thandi Modise maybe she might help you in that regard but I'm not saying she can, I'm saying she might.
JUDGE DE JAGER: What did you actually do to him?
MR MANDLAZI: I beat him under his feet.
JUDGE DE JAGER: With?
MR MANDLAZI: A stick.
JUDGE DE JAGER: With a stick? And did he confess anything?
MR MANDLAZI: He did eventually say he did work with Thandi Modise, he was responsible for Thandi's pregnancy, he was responsible for Thandi's arrest.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Has the Evidence Leader - have you got the address for instance of Thandi Modise? This man is perhaps paying maintenance for the child or whatever happened to him?
MR MAPOMA: I don't have those particulars, Chairperson, save to say that I am aware that Ms Thandi Modise is a member of parliament for the ANC. Perhaps we may have to contact her and find out further.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Maybe she could in some way assist you in tracing this person and giving him notice or sending a copy of what has been said here?
MR MAPOMA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: As I understand it, I may have misread it, looking at your application it appears that when you were questioning him about Thandi Modise, he called her by names or was it you who called her by names?
MR MANDLAZI: It's him who called her by names.
CHAIRPERSON: And this made you angry, understandably so?
MR MANDLAZI: In a way it did make me angry, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And did this also influence your decision to give him a hiding?
MR MANDLAZI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson.
Mr Mandlazi, what was the discrepancy in the biography actually that which he gave in Swaziland and that which he gave in Mozambique?
MR MANDLAZI: The biography he gave in Swaziland, it did not indicate his involvement with Thandi Modise but when he arrived in Mozambique, he then mentioned underground units and amongst those units was the name of Thandi Mondise who, by that time, was arrested and of course we had already got information that Thandi Modise was arrested.
MR MAPOMA: Now was he, that is Mr Maboso, an MK operative inside country or from outside?
MR MANDLAZI: From the story he gave us, he was not an MK operative but he was a hawker and as such he came to know Thandi Modise through the selling of clothes and through that contact with Thandi Modise, Thandi Modise - that is now I'm saying what he told us - he then or Thandi Modise in fact recruited him to her unit as a courier.
MR MAPOMA: Inside South Africa?
MR MANDLAZI: Inside South Africa, yes.
MR MAPOMA: And now when you happened to deal with his biography was he in the process of joining MK?
MR MANDLAZI: Yes. In fact when he came to the safe house he had already written his preliminary autobiography which is done voluntarily by any member who was joining the organisation and then he had then to conduct a biography which is a detailed biography of his activities which is guided by the person who is conducting the interview.
MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.
Sorry, Chairperson, one last question?
So when last did you see him, that was 1982?
MR MANDLAZI: When he was moved from the safe house.
MR MAPOMA: When the ANC was unbanned?
MR MANDLAZI: I will say I saw a person like him but I won't say per se it was him.
MR MAPOMA: Where did you see that person?
MR MANDLAZI: That was in 1993 in Shell House, Johannesburg.
MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. Thank you, Mr Mandlazi.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: No re-examination?
MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-examination, thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Only on this last - this person you saw in Shell House, was he working there or was he only a visitor or don't you know?
MR MANDLAZI: I wouldn't really say whether he was a visitor or working there.
MR SIBANYONI: When beating him what did you really intend to achieve?
MR MANDLAZI: Basically, the beating was to prove to him that he was a liar and he was lying deliberately because firstly, Thandi Modise was an intimate - he was intimate with Thandi Modise so he couldn't have just tell us that Thandi Modise had nothing to do with his activities. So we were just proving to him that he was a liar.
MR SIBANYONI: But what would you achieve by beating him?
MR MANDLAZI: To make him feel the pain of letting a person be arrested whilst at the same time claiming that he was involved in the struggle.
MR SIBANYONI: Would you say you were punishing him?
MR MANDLAZI: It was a punishment and of course it was also, it's because of the manner in which he talked about Thandi Modise, insults that he uttered against her. For me it was uncalled for.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Perhaps, Chairperson, one last question of re-exam flowing from what was asked?
Had Stalin, your commander, not called you outside and said to you "let's tie him and beat him up" would you have beaten him?
MR MANDLAZI: No.
MR KOOPEDI: No further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, Mr Koopedi, I've got a problem now. If you'd beaten him with the objective or the motive that he should fell pain and because he insulted Ms Modise, that really had nothing to do with politics but because he insulted her you felt aggrieved and you felt that a person insulting a woman should be punished, isn't that so?
MR MANDLAZI: Politics was involved.
JUDGE DE JAGER: In what way, wouldn't you have acted the same way if it was another woman that's been insulted and not a political woman?
MR MANDLAZI: The fact that he voluntarily left the country to join the ANC and to pick up where Thandi Modise had left, there was no need for him to tell lies about Thandi Modise, there was no need for him to call Thandi Modise names if Thandi Modise was a comrade as he had claimed earlier.
JUDGE DE JAGER: My colleague asked you "what did you want to achieve by doing so, by attacking him?" What in fact did you want to achieve?
MR MANDLAZI: What I wanted to achieve was for him to accept the responsibility of his actions.
MR SIBANYONI: Maybe to put it otherwise? Did the ANC benefit anything by you beating this person?
MR MANDLAZI: I wouldn't say the ANC benefited or not benefited, I wouldn't know.
CHAIRPERSON: As I understand your evidence, he was aggressive towards the questioning, he abused and insulted Thandi and he then hit you, is that correct?
MR MANDLAZI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And it was after this that Stalin called you outside and said let's tie him up and give him a hiding?
MR MANDLAZI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: So it was because of his aggressive anti-social behaviour that you decided to treat him like this?
MR MANDLAZI: I didn't take it that way.
CHAIRPERSON: No, Stalin decided?
MR MANDLAZI: Oh, when? I will say yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
JUDGE DE JAGER: And you don't know after that whether he was accepted as a comrade and sent for further training?
MR MANDLAZI: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, that concludes the application of this applicant. We are calling no other witness, Chairperson.
MR MAPOMA: There is no further evidence from my side, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI IN ARGUMENT: A brief submission, Chairperson.
Chairperson, it is my submission that the applicant before you, Mr Mandlazi, acted when he acted under the command of his commander who was then Stalin. It is my further submission, Chairperson, that whether the beating was right or wrong, he acted under an order and therefore he had to obey the order. But I wish to take it further, Chairperson, and say that when he acted, according to his evidence there was enough reason to act as he did. He was asked to come and assist in an interrogation where certain facts were needed or wanted from Mr Mabaso and indeed this interrogation resulted or ended up in certain beatings being done.
It is my further submission, Chairperson, that this applicant has fully disclosed all the relevant facts which effect him where he was involved and finally, it's my submission that this applicant did not receive anything of material gain, personally to himself and I would ask this Honourable Committee to consider granting him amnesty.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Koopedi, I've got no problem with full disclosure, I think he has told us what he has done. My only problem, whether this in fact, the beating had anything to do with politics. Wasn't it because this man became aggressive and insulted a woman? Wasn't that the motivation for the assault and even we don't know whether this man was a political opponent, we don't know how things proceeded from there?
MR KOOPEDI: I understand the difficulty, Judge. However, I wish to move from the premise that this applicant was called on a certain night to come and assist in interrogation and during this interrogation he was then called outside and by the time he was called outside, he had been assaulted and his evidence is that he had not retaliated, he did not hit back. I believe he could have. He did not hit back. He was then called outside and told "let's tie him and beat him up." I wish to believe that by him acting immediately after being called outside he was like continuing to act under orders.
However, the beating itself, even if Stalin is not here to tell us, my submission is that the beating itself was also politically motivated because what was needed, as the applicant said, they wanted him to tell the truth, to tell them exactly what happened and to clear the discrepancies in his various biographies.
CHAIRPERSON: But when he was giving the reasons, the reasons were far more - "we wanted him to feel pain for doing this, for behaving like this", not we wanted further information? Stalin only ordered the beating after the victim had hit the applicant?
MR KOOPEDI: Yes, that's when Stalin ordered the beating.
CHAIRPERSON: And that was an immediate reaction, "let's give him a hiding".
MR KOOPEDI: Yes, this is ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: That's not to get information from him, it's "We're not going to let him behave like this. He has become aggressive, unpleasant, we won't have young men treating us like that."
MR KOOPEDI: I seem to have heard it differently, Chairperson, in that although the applicant has stated that it was they were angered by the fact that he had insulted Thandi. The fact of the matter is that at that stage he had not given them what they ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Basically, the beating was to prove he was a liar, that's what he said when he was asked why they beat him?
MR KOOPEDI: That is indeed so, Chairperson, to prove that -even that they need to find certain facts and he is lying to them. So the point is that they beat him up to prove that he is a liar and that he must come up with the truth. But be that as it may, Chairperson, my submission is that had Stalin not ordered the beating this would not have happened.
MR MAPOMA IN ARGUMENT: Just something, Chairperson, regarding the explanation which has been tendered by the applicant as to why the assault was made.
Chairperson, I would draw the attention of the Honourable Committee to the provisions of Section 20.3, those criteria set down and I would ask the Committee to look into the - to assess the political motivation by looking holistically to the circumstances that gave rise to the assault itself because the assault is part of what was being done, that of interrogating a person who was suspected of having been responsible for the arrest of their co-combatant, so to speak and that Chairperson, it may be bad, I must say, the explanation that is being given by this particular applicant regarding as to why the assault was done. But Chairperson, having said so, I would say he being a foot soldier and a person who was carrying out what has been ordered to do, is not the right person to know better, what was in ...(indistinct) that the assault was done for. Mr Mohapi was unfortunately not here, but as I say Chairperson, given the - holistically, the circumstances which gave rise, the motive that was there, it would seem, Chairperson, that the matter was politically motivated. Thank you, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
MR KOOPEDI: That is fine, Chairperson. Can we assume, Chairperson, that this matter has been finalised?
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?
MR KOOPEDI: Can we agree that this matter has been finalised?
CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, the applicant can leave, we'll ...(inaudible)
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson.
WITNESS EXCUSED
