JOHN THABO SPHAMBO: (sworn states)
MR KOOPEDI: We beg leave to proceed Chairperson?
JUDGE DE JAGER: You have trouble with the victim. I note that the victim would only be available next week, but it seems as though the victim is present.
MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, we have managed to sort of make the victim available, in fact we went to fetch her. Thank you.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you.
EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Mr Sphambo, is it correct that you are applying for amnesty for the death of one Eric Pharasi?
MR SPHAMBO: Yes, Sir.
MR KOOPEDI: I am showing to you a document, Chairperson page 56 of the bundle of documents, is this your application form?
MR SPHAMBO: Yes, Sir.
MR KOOPEDI: And on page 61 thereof, there is a signature above the word "Deponent", is that your signature?
MR SPHAMBO: Yes, Sir.
MR KOOPEDI: Now would you acknowledge that you understand the contents of this form?
MR SPHAMBO: Yes, I do understand it.
MR KOOPEDI: And this form, who completed it? Was it completed by you?
MR SPHAMBO: Yes, it's myself.
MR KOOPEDI: If the Committee is satisfied, Chairperson, I beg leave to proceed in that the matter was not attested to before a Commissioner of Oaths, but he now confirms the contents and says he understands this declaration.
Now at the time when Eric Pharasi died, were you a member of any political organisation?
MR SPHAMBO: Yes, I was a member of the African National Congress.
MR KOOPEDI: Where were you?
MR SPHAMBO: I was stationed in Kibashe which was later changed to be Camp 13.
MR KOOPEDI: At Camp 32.
MR SPHAMBO: Camp 13.
MR KOOPEDI: Yes. Now would you briefly tell this Honourable Committee, what were you doing for the ANC at Camp 13 and what actually happened that led to the death of the late Mr Pharasi?
MR SPHAMBO: Around 1980 I became on of the senior staff members of Kibashe, administration. Basically I went there as a counter-intelligence officer for the African National Congress and later I became the Deputy - I became an acting Chief of Staff of the camp. So during that time, it was a time when South African regime infiltrated many agents within our organisation and in that period we discovered that the method they were using before, they have changed their methods and tactics and the method therefore that they were using at that time, it was to infiltrate people who will come and cause havoc and disorder within the members of the army, or of Umkhonto weSizwe by then. During that time, those agents who infiltrated the organisation tried to, they started to steal or organised some people within the camp whom they seem to them, seem they were weaker in the sense that they didn't have a strong backbone to stand to certain illicit activities within the camp and what happened is that during 91, that was a massive year where most of these agents who infiltrated, organised innocent comrades within the camp and mobilised them to steal property within the premises and go and see it to the local peasants around.
CHAIRPERSON: Well that's not innocent comrades is it, that's thieves.
MR SPHAMBO: Pardon.
CHAIRPERSON: That is not an innocent comrade, somebody who steals and sells things, that is a thief.
MR SPHAMBO: No innocent in a sense that they were not criminals and they were not infiltrators by then.
CHAIRPERSON: They were steal. You've just said they stole, is that not a criminal?
MR SPHAMBO: Infiltrators are the ones who were stealing the property in the cams and those, they were taking innocent comrades to go and sell those properties to the locals around and which was prohibited within - in our camps, you see.
So during that time Mr Eric Pharasi was influenced to be part of that and he managed, he fell for the trap and he was discovered with two bags of drugs and some drinks which were not allowed inside our premises and he was discovered and when he was discovered, we talked to him and in talking to him he agreed that he did something wrong and he was given a punishment and that punishment he was given, he was taken into solitary confinement in our camp. Unfortunately one was not aware that he is an asthmatic case and he was taken to the underground cell and the following day we found him - we discovered he's late.
MR KOOPEDI: Now this underground cell, had you ever put anyone in it before?
MR SPHAMBO: Yes, most of the incipient members of our army were station there within the camp, when they did something in need of disciplining, then they used to go there and spend a duration there.
MR KOOPEDI: I see that you refer to it as saying that he be locked up in solitary confinement in your statement, is that this underground cell?
MR SPHAMBO: Ja, this is the underground cell. That's the only cell that we had, we used to put people in it.
MR KOOPEDI: Was he assaulted?
MR SPHAMBO: No, he was not assaulted.
MR KOOPEDI: So his only punishment would have been to lock him up there?
MR SPHAMBO: yes.
MR KOOPEDI: For how long would he be locked up in solitary confinement?
MR SPHAMBO: He was to be locked in solitary confinement for a period of six months and during the day he was supposed to go and do the hard labour. What type of hard labour - he was supposed to go and cut the logs for fire for the camp.
MR KOOPEDI: So he actually never got to do that, to serve his punishment?
MR SPHAMBO: Exactly, he never got to do that.
MR KOOPEDI: So you're saying he passed away the very next morning?
MR SPHAMBO: Yes, the next morning when we opened the cell for him to come out, it's when we discovered that he is late now.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Is there any other thing you would want to add to this testimony that you've just given?
MR SPHAMBO: No, there's nothing more.
MR KOOPEDI: Now, do you regard yourself as having told this Honourable Committee the whole truth? Having disclosed all the relevant facts to this matter?
MR SPHAMBO: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Now, did you gain anything materially for having acted the way you did, for having issued this order that he be locked up in solitary?
MR SPHAMBO: No, I gained nothing.
MR KOOPEDI: Now would you say that your action was politically motivated and if so, how? How was it politically motivated?
MR SPHAMBO: Well, I'd say it was politically motivated because during that time it was a hard time for us and during the same period when we were trying to uncover most of these agents and some of the comrades were involved in this and in that process, that's why I'm saying that it was a legal, motivated action that I've taken because I was protecting the organisation and protecting the comrades in terms of using or acquiring these unwanted dagga, or unwanted liquids.
JUDGE DE JAGER: But I don't follow. You've started off by saying you were infiltrated by people who caused other people to steal things and sell it outside, but this instance had nothing to do with stealing of things in the camp and selling it outside.
MR SPHAMBO: No, you didn't get me clearly Sir. They steal the property inside the camp to go and acquire dagga and unwanted liquids.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Oh, I see they ...(indistinct) or they're getting money for it and then they're buying dagga and liquor.
MR SPHAMBO: Exactly. For instance I can make an example. Let's say they steal two boxes of sugar or two boxes of ... (indistinct) whatever, they take it outside the camp and they sell it and they buy dagga from outside and unwanted liquor from outside then they bring it into the camp so that at the end of the day, the members of the army or the soldiers in the camp, they do not follow the instructions when they're supposed to follow instructions, so to cause havoc generally.
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, that is the evidence-in-chief.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you Chairperson. I don't know, I would like to ask for some indulgence. There are certain versions which I want to put to the applicant which will come from the deceased's sister, who was also in Angola at that time and I'm waiting for her now. The victim here is just the mother, but she knows nothing about what was happening there so I don't know if I can ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Well, you say you're waiting for her, what do you mean by that?
MS MAKHUBELE: Honourable Chair, I'm waiting, I have called her to come.
CHAIRPERSON: Is she on the way? I mean you're not waiting and hoping she'll come here next week?
MS MAKHUBELE: She is on the way.
CHAIRPERSON: Is she travelling to the hearing now?
MS MAKHUBELE: Yes, she is.
CHAIRPERSON: Wherefrom?
MS MAKHUBELE: From the Union Buildings.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, so she should be here any minute?
MS MAKHUBELE: Any minute, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Then I think we'll stand down. Well certainly if it's just a matter of a few minutes, we'll stand the matter down till she's arrived and you've talked to her.
MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Right what matter are we on now?
MR KOOPEDI: We were still on the matter of Sphambo, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you had been told. The person we were waiting for has not arrived as yet, so what we agreed and I thought you had been - passed you it the matter will stand down till 2 o'clock and we will then proceed with the next matter. Have you not been told that?
MR KOOPEDI: I'm just hearing that Chairperson. If that is the case, I beg leave then to call the next applicant.
CHAIRPERSON: Well do you need any time?
MR KOOPEDI: No Chairperson. It's matter number F, it's a fairly straightforward matter. We have consulted on a previous occasion and I believe that the applicant will be able to do the matter without problems.
MS MAKHUBELE: ...(indistinct - mike not on)
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, the applicant is here before you ready to be sworn in. His name is Mr Mangena.
