Amnesty Hearings

DAWID JAKOBUS BRITS: (sworn states)

ADV BOSMAN: The applicant is duly sworn, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may be seated, Mr Brits. Mr Cornelius?

EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair.

Mr Brits, you are an applicant in this matter and your initial application you prepared yourself without legal assistance.

MR BRITS: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And you put it very short or you gave a brief version in your application and it was also signed under oath by you.

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes.

MR CORNELIUS: In the amendment on page, paragraph 7(a) and (b) in the initial application should read that you were a supporter of the National Party and that the word "none" must be removed or deleted.

MR BRITS: That's correct, yes.

MR CORNELIUS: You do confirm your career in the South African Police as it appears in page 1 of the document, is that correct?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You also confirm the personal circumstances as you set it out on page 2 of the document.

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: And then thirdly, do you also confirm your political motivations as a policeman, as it appears on page 3?

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes.

MR CORNELIUS: You were attached to Vlakplaas, the so-called C-Section of Eugene de Kock, is that correct?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: During the Khanya House incident what was your rank?

MR BRITS: I was a Warrant Officer.

MR CORNELIUS: It is common cause out of the evidence that you got an instruction to assist in the arson or the setting alight of Khanya House.

MR BRITS: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Can you just in short tell us what you did.

MR BRITS: I was part of the group who took the petrol to the house. I was part of the group who doused the house.

MR CORNELIUS: You then also entered the house?

MR BRITS: Yes, I did.

MR CORNELIUS: What did you do with the petrol?

MR BRITS: I doused it, or I poured it out over the floor. Some of the people were busy unlocking doors.

MR CORNELIUS: They unlocked the doors and moved in and you poured out the petrol?

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes.

MR CORNELIUS: On the merit part of your application you said when you left the area you took it with you, you took something with you, what did you take?

MR BRITS: It was part of a computer.

MR CORNELIUS: Why did you do it?

MR BRITS: It was a very short or quick decision, I thought it may contain some information that could provide us with more information concerning the house or what it was used for.

MR CORNELIUS: It is common cause that sometimes documents or computers were removed from scenes that were searched, is that correct?

MR BRITS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: What did you do with it?

MR BRITS: When we arrived at Vlakplaas I handed over the computer to Col de Kock.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you accept that this operation was approved by Head Office?

MR BRITS: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Various other sections of the Police were also involved in this.

MR BRITS: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you think that there were people in this building?

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Very well. No disciplinary actions were taken against you and you followed the instructions as it was given to you.

MR BRITS: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Col de Kock also testified that everybody worked on a need-to-know basis.

MR BRITS: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: So you did not ask any questions?

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you have any personal feelings of malice or revenge towards the owners of this house?

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you receive any remuneration for this?

MR BRITS: No.

MR CORNELIUS: Except for the salary.

MR BRITS: Yes, I only received my salary.

MR CORNELIUS: You apply for amnesty for arson, damaging of property, conspiracy, the use of explosives, defeating the ends of justice and any possible delicts that may arise from this.

MR BRITS: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And you will agree with me that the computer was stolen by you and I assume that you also then apply for amnesty for the theft of the computer.

MR BRITS: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Cornelius. Mr Hattingh?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Brits, I do not know if you were there when we read from the book, I think it was Exhibit E, the version of one of the people who were in the building that states that ...(intervention)

MS CAMBANIS: Sorry ...(inaudible)

MR HATTINGH: Oh I'm sorry. May I have a little booklet and then rather quote from it, Mr Chairman, lest I might mislead the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed with your question. Mr Cornelius, we'll mark the affidavit or the "aanvullende", Exhibit F.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may proceed, Mr Hattingh.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

I made the inference that the person was in the building, but I was informed that I was wrong. A section in this version of this person to which is referred to as Brother Jude, he says:

"It seems the arsonists were under the impression that there was no-one in the building, as they moved around fairly freely on the ground and first floors."

Two questions arising from this and I'd like to put to you, where you under the impression that there were no people in the building?

MR BRITS: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Did you move freely in the building without trying to - without making any noise, because you thought there was nobody in the building?

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Hattingh. Mr van der Merwe?

MR VAN DER MERWE: No questions, thank you Mr Chair.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel?

MR NEL: No questions, thank you Mr Chair.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wagener?

MR WAGENER: I have no questions, thank you Chair.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen?

MR JANSEN: For the record, Jansen. Chair, no questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Joubert?

MR JOUBERT: I have no questions, thank you Chair.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey, for a moment I lost you.

MR LAMEY: Thank you, I see it's me, I lost myself Chairperson. I've got no questions, thank you Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis?

MR DU PLESSIS: I've got no questions, thank you Mr Chair.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Cambanis?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Brits, were you with Mr Flores that evening?

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes, he was part of the team.

MS CAMBANIS: And when you entered the building you were one of the people that threw petrol, where did you go?

MR BRITS: Inside the house.

MS CAMBANIS: You will recall that has a ground floor and three storeys, do you recall that?

MR BRITS: Yes, I can recall that.

MS CAMBANIS: Yes, and so then were you on the ground floor, the top floor, all the floors?

MR BRITS: As far as I can recall ...(end of side B of tape)

MS CAMBANIS: ... was he?

MR BRITS: I do not know, Mr Chairperson, it was very early in the morning, it was still dark.

MS CAMBANIS: Who was with you on the ground floor and the first floor?

MR BRITS: I cannot recall, there were various people, approximately eight or nine.

MS CAMBANIS: You never went up to the first floor, is that correct?

MR BRITS: I was on the ground floor and as far as I can recall I was on the first floor.

CHAIRPERSON: He was on the first.

MS CAMBANIS: Sorry, I beg your - I'm sorry, Chairperson. From the time that you entered the building till when you left, how long would you estimate that was?

MR BRITS: From when we arrived at the scene until we completed it, I would say approximately 10 minutes maximum.

MS CAMBANIS: Inside the building distributing petrol, that's approximately 10 minutes?

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes.

MS CAMBANIS: And the laying of the cordite, is that included in that time?

MR BRITS: Can you just repeat that please.

MS CAMBANIS: "Die brand tou".

MR BRITS: I do not know anything about that, Mr Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Brits, do you know anything about the theft of a TV?

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson, I did not steal a TV, I took part of a computer.

MS CAMBANIS: From where?

MR BRITS: Out of one of the offices that was unlocked.

MS CAMBANIS: By whom was it unlocked?

MR BRITS: I do not know.

MS CAMBANIS: Was the computer taken from the ground floor?

MR BRITS: As far as I can recall, yes.

MS CAMBANIS: You've heard the comments about your colleague, that it came to his attention that there were nuns on the top floor at the house.

MR BRITS: We heard about it afterwards, yes.

MS CAMBANIS: Did you not get that information while you were inside?

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: And the evening of the operation, was that the first time that you had personally been to Khanya House?

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, Chair, nothing further.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CAMBANIS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Cambanis. Ms Patel?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

Just one question, Mr Brits. In your application to us you've stated that amongst the members who were present during the operation, or who were present, you've mentioned Capt Snyders, who is not an applicant here today. Can you recall what his involvement was?

MR BRITS: I can recall that he was part of the planning, Mr Chairperson, I cannot say with great certainty that he was there. As I said, it was in the evening, it was dark, but it's possible that he could have been there.

CHAIRPERSON: When you left Vlakplaas, was it dark as well there, or where you assembled?

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So where you assembled you couldn't see each other?

MR BRITS: No, we could see each other, but it was a long time ago, I cannot exactly recall who was in which vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: Are you certain that Mr Snyders was the planning meeting at Vlakplaas?

MR BRITS: As far as I can recall, yes.

MS PATEL: But you can't say what his involvement was subsequent to the operation?

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Do you know whether he was present at the report-back meeting at Vlakplaas?

MR BRITS: I cannot recall.

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Patel. Advocate Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Sandi

ADV SANDI: No questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Brits. Mr Cornelius, any re-exam?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Only one questions, Mr Chair, thank you.

You did not steal the television set?

MR BRITS: That's correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And it seems as if there's a confusion between the television and the computer.

MR BRITS: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: It wouldn't have made sense to in the middle of the night steal a television set and then walk down the street with this television set on your back or on your shoulders.

MR BRITS: No, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

MS CAMBANIS: Sorry Chairperson, I've received an indication from my clients to consult, can I just please be excused just to take instructions regarding this matter?

CHAIRPERSON: With Mr Brits?

MS CAMBANIS: Yes, with Mr Brits.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you. Thank you, Chairperson, may I put a question to Mr Brits?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Mr Brits, I'm instructed that the only place that you could have taken the computer from was from the documentation centre on the ground floor. Do you agree?

MR BRITS: That is so, yes, I will agree with that.

MS CAMBANIS: And is that also the area where you doused the area with petrol?

MR BRITS: Yes, that is correct.

MS CAMBANIS: Because Mr Brits, that is the area that in fact didn't burn extensively.

MR BRITS: It is possibly so, I wasn't there afterwards.

MS CAMBANIS: But it's your evidence that you did douse it as thoroughly as you did the rest of the building?

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes.

MS CAMBANIS: And the documentation centre, do you know who else entered into that area?

MR BRITS: I cannot recall, no.

MS CAMBANIS: Because that is also the place where the limpet mines were found in a cupboard.

MR BRITS: I cannot testify about that, I do not know anything about the limpet mines.

MS CAMBANIS: You don't know who brought the limpet mines to Khanya House?

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: So at the time you didn't know and to this day you don't know?

MR BRITS: That is correct, yes.

MS CAMBANIS: Did you know at the time that limpet mines would be placed?

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: And while you were in the documentation centre, you never saw who placed anything other than petrol?

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: Was there anyone else in the documentation centre?

MR BRITS: As I said, we were eight to nine people who were in the building at that stage, it was dark, I do not know who was there with me.

MS CAMBANIS: Sir, this is where the computer was taken from, it's an area you would remember.

MR BRITS: That is correct.

MS CAMBANIS: I'm asking about that area where you took the computer, did anyone else enter into that area with you?

MR BRITS: I took the computer when we were busy leaving the building.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Brits, in the area from which you took the computer, was anyone else in that area with you?

MR BRITS: We were eight to nine people in that area, Mr Chairperson, I cannot say who was with me at that stage in the office.

MS CAMBANIS: Then say that, Mr Brits. Were you the only person in that area, or don't you know?

MR BRITS: We were eight or nine people in that area. I cannot recall who was with me at that stage, maybe I was alone.

MS CAMBANIS: It's possible that you were the only person that went into that area.

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson, because I did not open the doors.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

ADV SANDI: Sorry, can I just ask a question here just to get clarity.

When you say "that area", which part of the building are you referring to? Are you referring to the ground or the documentation centre?

MR BRITS: I'm talking about the ground floor.

ADV SANDI: Were the only person who entered the documentation centre?

MR BRITS: No, Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have anything to clear, Mr Cornelius?

MR CORNELIUS: No, I don't have anything, thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr Brits, you are excused.

MR BRITS: Thank you, Chairperson.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Are you leading any other evidence in respect of Mr Brits, Mr Cornelius?

MR CORNELIUS: No Mr Chair, thank you, that concludes his application.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I see we have hit four and from the gathering of documentation people are suggesting that we end the day just here. We shall adjourn until tomorrow morning at nine thirty.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS