CHAIRPERSON: I believe we finished with one applicant yesterday, who is the next?
MR JANSEN: Thank you, Chair, Jansen on record. The agreement between the representatives is that applicant Ras will testify next.
CHAIRPERSON: Is he with us?
MR JANSEN: He's with us and I wish to call him in support of his own application. He's be testifying in Afrikaans. Thank you, Chair. And he will take the oath.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Jansen.
MARTINUS DAWID RAS: (sworn states)
ADV BOSMAN: The applicant is duly sworn, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Jansen?
EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN: Thank you, Chair.
Mr Ras, you are one of the applicants in this application to which we can refer to as the Khanya House application, is that correct?
MR RAS: Yes, that is correct.
MR JANSEN: And your written application which you submitted initially to the TRC, appears on page 267 and onwards in these documents.
MR RAS: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR JANSEN: In preparation for this hearing you once again studied your application.
MR RAS: That is correct.
MR JANSEN: Furthermore, you studied some of the other applicants' applications and allegations in as far as it was of application to yours.
MR RAS: That is correct.
MR JANSEN: Just for the sake of background, at the stage when you compiled your application, did you have any access to the versions of any of the other applicants, whether it be by means of access to their applications or their versions and discussions and so forth?
MR RAS: No.
MR JANSEN: Did you have any other documentation or something other with which you could refresh your memory?
MR RAS: No.
MR JANSEN: With the exception of certain qualifications and additions which you will bring about in your verbal evidence, do you confirm the content of your application, both regarding the political motivation and political background, as well as the facts of the case itself?
MR RAS: Yes.
MR JANSEN: You are aware that some of the evidence which was heard at the beginning of the so-called De Kock clusters pertaining to Vlakplaas, its background and its working methods.
MR RAS: That is correct.
MR JANSEN: And you wish for that evidence which was given during those proceedings to be incorporated with your application in this matter.
MR RAS: That is correct.
MR JANSEN: With regard to the incident at Khanya House, there are a number of versions which were put by the other applicants, which differ somewhat from yours. The first difference is that you state the involvement of one, Blackie Swart, who is not an applicant in this matter and has been put on the record by his legal representative as not being involved in the case, what is your commentary regarding this?
MR RAS: Chairperson, at that stage I believed that he was involved. I have rethought my belief and I cannot place him at this case with a specific date.
MR JANSEN: Therefore you accept that you may be mistaken with regard to his involvement?
MR RAS: That is correct.
MR JANSEN: The following is an allegation which you make in your application, namely that a television was removed from the scene by Mr Brits, now Mr Brits states that it was a computer. Furthermore he states that he did not leave there on foot. Did you ever see him with this article that you have mentioned?
MR RAS: No, Chairperson, it was a jocular statement which was made on the farm at that stage, I did not see him remove a television physically as such.
MR JANSEN: Therefore it was hearsay that you heard later?
MR RAS: Yes, Chairperson.
MR JANSEN: Very well. You also made an allegation regarding an identikit which Gen Engelbrecht brought to the farm and that the identikit had the face of Mr de Kock on it. Once again, Mr de Kock states that there were identikits but that no-one who was depicted on those identikits could clearly refer to him, what is your commentary?
MR RAS: I will accept Mr de Kock's version, I did not see the identikits myself. Once again it was mentioned at a certain point on the farm where someone made a comment about it. It is possible that this person didn't see the identikit himself and simply drew an inference that Mr de Kock had indeed been identified and that he was on one of the identikits, meaning that he would have been confronted by one of the policemen that night.
MR JANSEN: Another aspect is the application of Mr Flores. You state that you held watch outside the building with Mr Flores.
MR RAS: That is correct.
MR JANSEN: Mr Flores states in his application that he was standing guard with Mr du Plessis outside the building, what is your commentary?
MR RAS: No, as far as I can recall to this day, it was Mr Flores and I who stood guard together outside the overhead roof next to the building which was burnt down.
MR JANSEN: So you will maintain your version?
MR RAS: Yes.
MR JANSEN: And you were also armed, according to your recollection.
MR RAS: That is correct.
MR JANSEN: And the purpose was in the eventuality of someone arriving at the scene, you would have to shoot or kill such a person.
MR RAS: Yes, that is correct.
MR JANSEN: Just with regard to this, with the exception that there was always the inherent danger for an operation to go awry, what were your orders? Was the operation aimed in any way at the injury or death of any persons?
MR RAS: No, Chairperson, the idea was to prevent or avoid injuries or loss of life in as far as it was possible.
MR JANSEN: You were not involved in the identification of Khanya House as a target, is that correct?
MR RAS: That is correct.
MR JANSEN: Furthermore, you were not involved in the evaluation of Khanya House as a legitimate target?
MR RAS: No, Chairperson.
MR JANSEN: What, according to your recollection, was the purpose of the operation as it was related to you?
MR RAS: It was a Stratcom action in the sense that the printing press had to be destroyed because propaganda material was being published by means of this printing press.
MR JANSEN: Did you regard your actions with regard to this incident as part of your duties there at Vlakplaas?
MR RAS: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR JANSEN: Did you regard it as an action which was aimed at the safety of the State dispensation at that stage?
MR RAS: That is correct.
MR JANSEN: Did you receive any special remuneration for this operation?
MR RAS: No, Chairperson.
MR JANSEN: Before or during the operation, were you aware of the presence of persons in Khanya House?
MR RAS: No.
MR JANSEN: Mr Flores alleges that, or at least one would infer from the context of his allegation, that during the operation there was a realisation that there were persons in the building, but nonetheless the operation continued. According to you, could that statement be correct?
MR RAS: No, Chairperson, as far as I know, Mr Flores was with me and as far as I can recall, as far as I know, at that stage when we were executing the orders we did not know and during the action we did not know. Perhaps subsequent to the operation it was mentioned or it was heard that there were persons in the building.
MR JANSEN: You've stated that it could have been Mr de Kock that said so.
MR RAS: Yes, or it could have been in the papers.
MR JANSEN: When could that admission have been?
MR RAS: I cannot recall if it was that same night or the following day.
MR JANSEN: But would it have been subsequent to the operation?
MR RAS: That is correct.
MR JANSEN: In your application you are not specific regarding the offences for which you have applied for amnesty, but you apply for arson and to the extent that the fact corroborate this, attempted murder or any other offences which may emanate from the facts.
MR RAS: That is correct.
MR JANSEN: Thank you, Chair, nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Jansen. Mr Hattingh?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Ras, you and Mr Flores were armed in order to thwart any danger to the operation from the outside, is that correct?
MR RAS: I wouldn't say from the outside, I would say that if any kind of situation occurred on the premises, but we were not aware of any persons on the premises or any guards on the premises.
MR HATTINGH: So you did not expect to find anybody there?
MR RAS: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Was it important to you that this operation be kept as secret as possible because you as Vlakplaas members were involved in this operation at Khanya House?
MR RAS: I think that any police involvement and not necessarily only Vlakplaas involvement, should have to be kept secret at any cost.
MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
MR VAN DER MERWE: Van der Merwe on record, no questions thank you, Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel?
MR NEL: Thank you Chair, I have no questions for Mr Ras.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wagener?
MR WAGENER: Chairman, I have no questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Joubert?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JOUBERT: Thank you, Chair, just one or two questions.
Mr Ras, on page 273 of your application where you summarise the Nature and the Particulars, you state that Col de Kock told you that Col McIntyre directed the request for Unit C1 or Vlakplaas, to become involved in the operation. You do not have any personal knowledge that Brig McIntyre indeed made this request?
MR RAS: No.
MR JOUBERT: No further questions, thank you Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Lamey?
MR LAMEY: I've got no questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr du Plessis?
MR DU PLESSIS: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair.
Mr Ras, Mr Flores will testify that although you were under the impression that he was armed, he did not have a weapon but a stick, do you know anything about this?
MR RAS: No, Chairperson, I cannot recall anything like that.
MR CORNELIUS: And then you moved around rather freely on the ground level and the first storey.
MR RAS: No, we were outside the building under the overhead roof.
MR CORNELIUS: The other parties were in the building?
MR RAS: Yes, the others were inside the building and on the ground floor as far as I know, but we were outside.
MR CORNELIUS: So it was clear that you would not have moved around as freely if you thought that there were people in the building?
MR RAS: Yes, the idea at that stage was that it was not necessary to render the place secure on this inside, but on the outside.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you attend the hearings yesterday?
MR RAS: No.
MR CORNELIUS: I will quote to you from Exhibit C, which is a document called: "After the Fire", in which the statement is made
"It seems that the arsonists were under the impression that there was no-one in the building, as they moved around fairly freely on the ground and first floors, Brother Jude said at a press conference shortly after the attack."
That is also your sentiment?
MR RAS: Yes, that is how it was.
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Cornelius. Ms Cambanis?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, Chair.
Sir, were you part of the surveillance teams?
MR JANSEN: Mr Chair, just a technical problem.
MS CAMBANIS: We're just waiting for headphones. Thank you, Chair.
Sir, were you part of any of the so-called recces that were undertaken prior to this event, action?
MR RAS: Not as far as I can recall.
MS CAMBANIS: When were you first briefed about this operation?
MR RAS: As far as I can recall it was the afternoon before the operation was to take place. I do not recall whether it was any longer before the time.
MS CAMBANIS: And who was present at this briefing?
MR RAS: As far as I can recall it was everyone who was to be involved that evening.
MS CAMBANIS: Briefed by Mr de Kock?
MR RAS: That is correct.
MS CAMBANIS: And as you remember, the purpose of this operation was to destroy the printing press, you say.
MR RAS: Yes, the printing press, that is correct.
MS CAMBANIS: Were you briefed about the layout of the building?
MR RAS: No, Chairperson, I would have served in a protective capacity, primarily on the outside for the other members who were on the inside.
MS CAMBANIS: Was it not explained that the printing press was actually housed in a separate building to Khanya House? As you remember.
MR RAS: Chairperson, it is possible that it may have been explained to other persons who specifically were involved with the task itself, I was not. It was my task to protect from the outside and I was not directly briefed regarding the printing press. It may be that I was briefed, but I cannot really recall because it didn't really have any bearing on me.
CHAIRPERSON: If I may interpose here, Ms Cambanis.
When you were briefed the afternoon before the attack, were you people not all together at Vlakplaas, or were you briefed separately? Because what I understood you to say is that everyone who was to be involved was briefed the afternoon before, but now you cannot recall what obtained in the briefing.
MR RAS: Chairperson, there were various task groups who were also briefed separately regarding their specific tasks. In general we were explained what we were supposed to do, then subsequently, the individual members were given the individual tasks. As far as I can recall, Flores and I were involved in securing the area and providing protection. There wasn't a briefing session where every person had to remember everything that was going to take place.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed Ms Cambanis.
MS CAMBANIS: Thank you.
At the general briefing what was told to you, as far as you remember now?
MR RAS: As far as I can recall, weapons were issued to us and we were informed that we were supposed to provide protection for those members who were to enter the premises and that they were going to destroy the printing press by means of fire. We were not informed regarding how it was going to be burned and so forth, I was just very briefly informed regarding what was going to happen.
MS CAMBANIS: Are you saying that weapons were issued to everyone at the general briefing?
MR RAS: No, as I have already explained, we were separately briefed, Leon Flores and I were separately briefed. As far as I can recall the two of us were issued with weapons. It is possible that he was issued with something else, but I was issued with a .22 fitted with a silencer.
MS CAMBANIS: Sorry about the confusion, Mr Ras, I asked at the general briefing, please tell us what you recall from the general briefing.
MR RAS: Chairperson, as far as I can recall, during the general briefing session it was said to us that there was a request from McIntyre from Head Office, that a Stratcom action was to take place, that things were being published at that stage for the purposes of propaganda against the government, that the premises and the printing press were being used for that and that the printing press had to be destroyed and that the operation would take place that night.
I cannot recall that all of us were at that point briefed regarding what every person would do and it wasn't necessary for every person to know what every other person was going to do, everyone had a specific task. As far as I can recall, Leon Flores and I were briefed regarding what our task was, it was protection, I was issued with a .22. That is what we did that evening.
MS CAMBANIS: At the general briefing, was a map or a drawing of the general layout of Khanya House shown to the people who would be participating in the operation?
MR RAS: Chairperson, I cannot recall, I don't know at all.
MS CAMBANIS: Is it possible that maps were shown, or plans were shown?
MR RAS: Well I would have to speculate, but the fact is that it is a possibility and the same possibility exists that Pretoria branch must have been familiar with the premises and that people had entered the premises on previous occasions. However, I didn't have any concrete knowledge of that, I didn't know for certain whether this had indeed taken place.
MS CAMBANIS: Mr Ras, isn't it the Vlakplaas operatives who entered the building to distribute the inflammable liquid?
MR RAS: Not all of us were from Vlakplaas.
MS CAMBANIS: From where?
MR RAS: There were members of the Technical Unit, they had to open the locks, there was also a member of the Demolitions Unit, they could have had a map of the layout of the building. No map was ever shown to me, I didn't see anything like that.
MS CAMBANIS: As I understood Mr de Kock's evidence yesterday, and Mr Hattingh can help me, it was the Vlakplaas operatives who entered and distributed the petrol within the building. Is that correct, Mr Hattingh?
MR HATTINGH: Not only Vlakplaas operatives, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: Sorry, my impression was also not all of them.
MS CAMBANIS: I apologise, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MS CAMBANIS: Mr Ras, do you know - you heard Mr Brits yesterday, he's one of your colleagues from Vlakplaas, he's one of the persons who entered the building. Did you attend - were you present when he was briefed about how to distribute and what to do with the petrol once you got to the building?
MR RAS: Chairperson, in the first place, I was not present here yesterday afternoon and in the second place, I cannot recall that I was briefed with him regarding what his work was.
MS CAMBANIS: So as you understand it then, a series of briefings took place, one with the outside guards, one with the people to distribute petrol or whatever it is? You just remember what you had to do.
MR RAS: Well every person was briefed regarding what he was supposed to do and in my opinion everybody then did what they were supposed to do.
MS CAMBANIS: Mr Ras, what do you know about the explosives that were planted at Khanya House?
MR RAS: I had no knowledge of that.
MS CAMBANIS: Prior to the operation you had no knowledge of that?
MR RAS: No, Chairperson.
MS CAMBANIS: And subsequent to the operation, did you know that explosives had been planted at Vlakplaas(sic)?
MR RAS: Yes, Chairperson.
MS CAMBANIS: Who planted the explosives at Khanya House?
MR RAS: I don't know.
MS CAMBANIS: Mr de Kock has said that it was from Vlakplaas, are you telling me that amongst yourselves you don't know who planted it? The explosives.
CHAIRPERSON: If they were briefed separately and he had to stand guard, how would he? Because apparently, if I understood his testimony, after they were told generally about Khanya House, each group was briefed with the task they had to perform
MS CAMBANIS: Yes Chair, I asked afterwards if he found out.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, thank you.
MS CAMBANIS: Thank you.
MR RAS: No, Chairperson, the way I came to find out that there were explosives on the scene was that we had a discussion and ...(intervention)
INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon, the Interpreter did not get the name of the person that the witness has mentioned. Could the witness please repeat the name of the person who he's just mentioned.
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Ras, the Interpreter asks for you to repeat the name that you mentioned, she did not hear it.
MR RAS: Chairperson, as far as I can recall, the following or the day thereafter my father who at that stage was second-in-command at the branch, mentioned that during the cleaning up session after the fire explosives were found, but he was not aware of my involvement with the incident.
INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.
MS CAMBANIS: Sorry. As far as you were concerned, I thought you'd said that you knew that explosives had been planted at Khanya House - earlier in your evidence. Did you not say that, Mr Ras?
MR RAS: Yes, you asked me if I found out at a later stage, and yes, I did. A day or two afterwards it was mentioned to me and not by one of the members of Vlakplaas, but my father told me, who worked at the branch at that stage.
MS CAMBANIS: Sir, you said that you stood guard - I thought you said that you stood guard on the overhead roof, if my translation, did you say that?
MR RAS: Yes, as far as I can recall the overhead roof on the outside, yes there were on the outside and that's where we stood.
MS CAMBANIS: Is that an office that's attached to the main building of Khanya House, or is it a different structure that you're talking about?
MR RAS: As far as I know it was a vehicle garage.
CHAIRPERSON: Would that be translated into a car port?
MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, Chair.
Mr Ras, is that on the premises of Khanya House?
MR RAS: Yes, as far as I can recall.
MS CAMBANIS: And do you recall what time did you arrive at the scene?
MR RAS: I will have to speculate now, it was approximately 10 or 11 o'clock, it could be any time. I cannot recall.
MS CAMBANIS: And when you arrived at the scene to the time that you left the scene, how long do you think that was? An estimate, obviously.
MR RAS: 10 minutes, I do not know, it wasn't very long.
MS CAMBANIS: You arrived in a kombi, is that correct?
MR RAS: That is correct, yes.
MS CAMBANIS: You got out of the kombi and you were, were you told then that you must go and stand guard?
MR RAS: No, it was told to me at the farm and that is where I got the weapon as well.
MS CAMBANIS: And that is the first time that you'd been to Khanya House?
MR RAS: That is correct, yes, some of the other members were supposed to have been there by that stage, I do not know who, because we came from the church's side.
MS CAMBANIS: So you mean a second group should have been there already, arriving earlier than you?
MR RAS: No, no, ...(intervention)
MS CAMBANIS: Please explain.
MR RAS: No, I'm not saying that there was a second group, I'm saying that some of the members at a previous time did some reconnaissance, observations, who knew the terrain and then when we got out of the kombi we went round the back, climbed over the fence, but some of the members knew the whole set-up of the area or the terrain.
MS CAMBANIS: Mr Ras, one of the applicants that I can't recall right now, has referred to Khanya House as the residence, as a residence, do you recall that information being given to you? At page 313 of the bundle - Mr du Toit.
CHAIRPERSON: They normally refer to him as WAL.
MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: WAL du Toit.
MR RAS: No, Mr Chairperson, I cannot recall that, what was told to me was that there was a printing press and this had to be destroyed.
MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, Mr Ras. Thank you Chair, I have nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Cambanis. Ms Patel?
MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, I have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Advocate Bosman?
ADV BOSMAN: Just one question, thank you.
Mr Ras, something that is strange is that in your application you testified on, or implicated people on hearsay, why did you do it?
MR RAS: Mr Chairperson, because it was not a court hearing and we had to disclose everything that we knew and that is why I did it.
ADV BOSMAN: But the fact that you connected Mr Brits with a television and you just heard in a joke that somebody took a television, why would you include a joke in your full disclosure?
MR RAS: Mr Chairperson, let me put it like this, at the stage I was in front of McAdam, he assisted me, it was approximately 24 hours that we took to write all these documents, it could have been that it was included in the statement and when I read the statement for the second time I saw that it was mentioned there. I cannot give you an explanation, except that I was quite tired after all the statements that I made at that stage. I tried to - I did not want to include Mr Brits in any way, it's just something that happened, I cannot really explain it.
ADV BOSMAN: I do know that you wanted to tell the truth, but it's just strange that you would mention something like this that was a joke and that you heard from somebody else. In as far as it pertains to Mr Engelbrecht or Brig Engelbrecht, did you specifically ask him or mention something that looks as if it was just added?
MR RAS: Well he did come forward with identikits and it was mentioned that people were identified, but I personally did not see the identikits and at that stage when I mentioned it, I included it.
ADV BOSMAN: If you now look at your statement, what made you think of Brig Engelbrecht?
MR RAS: Because he was directly involved in the investigation, because he arrived on the farm with the identikits.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Sandi?
ADV SANDI: I hope in your testimony today you have not included any jokes, Mr Ras, have you?
MR RAS: Yes Mr Chairperson, I do not see this whole process as a joke.
ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Advocate Sandi. Any re-examination, Mr Jansen?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN: Thank you, Chair, just one very small issue.
Mr Ras, you referred to your father who worked at the branch, who was involved at the branch, and you are referring to the Pretoria branch of the Security force.
MR RAS: Yes, it was the Northern Transvaal branch.
MR JANSEN: Yes. Thank you very much, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Jansen. Thank you, Mr Ras. May I say "junior", just to make it clear that we are not talking about your father. You are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair, I believe by agreement with my learned colleagues not calling any witnesses, I'm next with Mr Vermeulen.
