Amnesty Hearings

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman, we are ready to begin, but my learned friend, Adv Bizos has indicated that he has a request to make to the Committee about some videos.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos?

MR BIZOS: Mr Chairman, I tendered to ask you to view a video of Mr Hartzenberg being interviewed by Mr Lester Venter on the SABC. I am told that the equipment is not here. Arrangements are being made to try and get some equipment here. I don't want to take up time. I will proceed, with your leave, with my examination of Mr Derby-Lewis.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

CLIVE DERBY-LEWIS: (Still under affirmation).

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS: (cont): Mr Derby-Lewis, I read to you a portion of Hansard in which Mr Koos Botha was repudiated for contending that the speech at Voortrekker Hoogte and the resolution of or the adoption of a programme of action in Kimberley was said not to be concerned with violence. What I want to do, Mr Chairman, for the sake of completeness, is to hand in a fuller section of Hansard, commencing on page 12738 and finishing at 12838. We, having regard to our limited resources, we have made one copy for the Commission and one copy for counsel for the applicants. I do not intend referring to it at this stage, but it may be necessary during the course of argument to refer to portions of what was said, in order to explain what the debate was about.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BIZOS: The relevant passage that I read out is before you, each one of you have a copy in R4, I beg your pardon, in R3, in section F, together with the newspaper cuttings that summarise the debate from pages F1 to 5; clearly indicated to the world at large that the CP was against the use of violence. Having explained that, Mr Chairman, I would like to proceed with the examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Please do.

MR BIZOS: Would you please turn ... (intervention).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, can I request that I be given an opportunity to go through this document before Mr Bizos starts referring to it because I am not familiar with it?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it the pages from Hansard?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: The pages from Hansard, yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, are you going to be questioning him on the contents of this document?

MR BIZOS: Not on any portion. What I wanted to put to Mr Derby-Lewis, I put on Friday afternoon, Mr Chairman. If - I am sure that Mr Derby-Lewis has time during the adjournments and after court, if - and he is represented by counsel, I have made the document available they will, no doubt, have an opportunity to re-examine the witness and if there is anything that they want to draw attention to, which either explains or deals for any matter, the matter can be clarified then. We are anxious not to take up court time for Mr Lewis to peruse documents.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lewis, if you have any difficulty as a result of questions being put to you, which taxes your memory about these documents, we will then consider it at that stage.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, with respect, I still have a problem, because Mr Bizos may ask me questions which are referred to in other speeches by my colleagues of which I am not aware and I don't know whether ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: He will put that to you, you can reserve your answer. But let's proceed with the rest of the evidence.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Right, thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Thank you. Will you please look at R3, page, section F, page 1.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes. Yes, Mr Chairman, I have got it.

MR BIZOS: This is a newspaper report in The Citizen. Did you and your wife regularly read The Citizen, Mr Derby-Lewis?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: And it would appear that your wife was a regular contributor to The Citizen, not as regular as Die Patriot, but she was a contributor to this ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: If Mr Bizos is referring, Mr Chairman, to the occasional letter which my wife used to submit to the editor, that is correct.

MR BIZOS: Yes. And please try and remember whether this report came to your notice, which is a summary of the debate in Parliament.

"Hillview bomber, Mr Koos Botha, should stop blaming the Conservative Party and its leaders for his actions, and he would then find that they had sympathy for him, Mr Daan du Plessis, CP Roodeplaat said yesterday.

Speaking in debate on the further Indemnity Bill he said Mr Botha had blamed a speech by CP leader, Dr Andries Treurnicht in which he said the third war of freedom had begun for inciting him to violence. Naturally, the third war of freedom has begun, said Mr Du Plessis, but the fact that I say this here today, does not oblige you to go out tomorrow and plant bombs.

There had been 30 000 people at the Voortrekkerhoogte meeting where Dr Treurnicht made the statement. How many of those people went and planted bombs? Dr Treurnicht had said that anyone who planted bombs did so at his own risk, knowing that he was contravening the laws of the land, and that he would have to bear the blame and the punishment. If Mr Botha had indeed blown up Hillview School, the question arose whether he had not known the consequences. Mr Botha had naturally been alone when he was finally brought to court. At that stage he had already kicked his colleagues in the face and cut himself off from them."

Did this report come to your notice?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, in all probability.

MR BIZOS: Yes. Now before you decided to make yourself guilty of murder, did you go to your leader and say, ask specifically, leader, what is our party's policy in relation to killing people or doing damage to property or using violence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I testified previously that I had already discussed the moral basis of killing in the ongoing struggle against the anti-Christ and I have testified as to what my leader said.

MR BIZOS: Yes. But will you leave anti-Christ out for a moment and can we have a direct answer to the question. When you heard or read of this, did you go to your leader and ask him what is our policy in relation to acts of violence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I did not, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: When you were discussing with your friend, Mr Walus, the plans in order to murder Chris Hani, did you say to him that there are public statements which clearly indicate that the Conservative Party is against violence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, because that was not so.

MR BIZOS: Well, are you saying that Mr Prinsloo, who made these statements, was lying to the public of South Africa?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, Mr Prinsloo didn't make those statements.

MR BIZOS: I beg your pardon, Du Plessis, I beg your pardon.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Du Plessis made the statement.

MR BIZOS: I beg your pardon, yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: The second point I wish to make, Mr Chairman, is that if you have a look at the clipping, you will see at the bottom there, the last paragraph in that clipping, there is a quote

"At that stage he had already kicked his colleagues in the face."

I am not sure to which, to whom this is attributed, the report doesn't say that.

Then thirdly, Mr Chairman, I want to say here that the report says Dr Treurnicht had said that-

"Anyone who planted bombs did so at his own risk, knowing that he was contravening the laws...."

as Mr Bizos correctly read out,

"....the laws of the land, and that he would have to bear the blame and punishment".

This was done by all freedom fighters, they all contravened the law in terms of the war which is being waged. Mr Chairman, and they all committed crimes. So how can I be ... (intervention).

MR BIZOS: Do you mindanwering my question my question, Mr Derby-Lewis.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have answered the question, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: I will repeat it and I will ask the Chairman to direct you to answer it. Whilst you were discussing the manner in which you and Mr Walus were going to murder Chris Hani, did you tell Mr Walus that the record showed that the Conservative Party was against violence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I did not tell him that, Mr Chairman, no.

MR BIZOS: Why did you not tell him that if you knew the policy clearly? Did you not want to inform Mr Walus that he was about - you were discussing the commission of an act of murder, contrary to the policy of the body of which you were a senior member?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, we were clearly in a war-time climate, and that wasn't even necessary, according to my assessment, because it was quite obvious that we were in a war situation.

MR BIZOS: I didn't ask you whether you thought that we were or were not in a war situation. The question is why did you not tell Mr Walus that statements had been made by leading CP people that CP was against violence? Why did you not tell him that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Because, Mr Chairman, at the time that we discussed the act of war, the policy had changed completely, and according to statements by various leaders it was clear that it was a different situation.

MR BIZOS: In your application, Mr Derby-Lewis, you said that the statements that influenced you to conspire and assist in the commission of the murder of Chris Hani, it was - were the monument speech and the Kimberley resolution. Can you point to a single public statement anywhere, after this disassociation of the Conservative Party from violence, can you show any other public statement by the CP that they had changed their policy as enunciated by Mr Du Plessis in Hansard at the time? Can you show a single statement? Can you show us in your application where a single statement was made saying that Mr Du Plessis was wrong?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: He may have been correct when he said that in Parliament, but the policy has changed. Can you show a single statement?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Now who were you, after the office-bearers of the CP had clearly indicated that violence was not the policy of the CP, to second-guess their public statements, that the policy may have changed?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I did not have to guess, and I refer you to a report in the Rapport newspaper, dated the 11th of October 1992, and it is a report of the speech held by the late Dr Treurnicht at Paardekraal Monument in Krugersdorp. And Mr Chairman, the headline is very clear, and I will be submitting this bundle, Mr Chairman. The headline is clear

"Treurnicht praat oorlog."

(Treurnicht discusses war).

that was the perception of the journalist who wrote the story. And Mr Chairman, what this report tells us of Dr Treurnicht's speech, the first paragraph reads as follows -

"The time is almost there that the Afrikaner volk will exclaim that they cannot do anything else than to go into war."

Sorry, Mr Chairman, the sound seems to go off and on while I am talking, I'm sorry, I have nothing to do with that.

Mr Chairman, then this report goes further and Dr Treurnicht spoke about how the "Boerekrygers 'n klipstapel "by Paardekraal opgerig het", that would (...indistinct) on the 12th of December 1880, as a symbol that they were going to fight to the end.

Now Mr Chairman, I can tell you that at this function held at Paardekraal Monument on the 10th of October, "ons het ook klippe gestapel". That was a part of the ceremony.

Further, Mr Chairman ... (intervention).

MR BIZOS: What was the date?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That was the 11th of October, is the report, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: The 11th of October?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Mr Derby-Lewis, I don't want to interrupt you, but may I draw your attention that the document on which I have referred you to in The Citizen, was after that. The debate in Parliament was after Paardekraal.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I don't mind when the debate was held, but if one looks at the contents of Mr Du Plessis' speech, it is clear that he is actually repeating statements which were said in the past.

MR BIZOS: Mr Derby-Lewis, I asked you and I will ask you again, can you refer us to a single public utterance by anyone in the leadership of the CP which contradicted what was said by Mr Du Plessis as reported in The Citizen of the 22nd of October 1992,can you or can't you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I have already answered that question. I said ... (intervention).

MR BIZOS: You haven't answered that question.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: My answer was no.

MR BIZOS: Oh, I see. So your reference to the Paardekraal statement was not in answer to that question?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, my reference to the Paardekraal report was in elucidation of the situation which prevailed at the time.

MR BIZOS: The caucus of the CP, and Mr Du Plessis that spoke in its name in Parliament, obviously didn't know or did not interpret the Paardekraal speech that you speak about in the manner in which you do?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I was an equal member of the caucus to the status of Mr Du Plessis.

MR BIZOS: And did you go ... (intervention).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And that was his perception. Sorry, can I finish, please?

MR BIZOS: Yes, please do.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And that was his perception at the time and he was in the speech clearly getting stuck into Mr Koos Botha, because of the fact that he had already been expelled from the party and that he was obviously in Mr Du Plessis' statements, creating an embarrassment for the party by continually blaming Dr Treurnicht for something that was said in 1990. I am not blaming Dr Treurnicht, Mr Chairman, for something that was said in 1990. The 1990 statement was the beginning, but this 1992 statement, Mr Chairman, was clearly a completely different ball-game.

MR BIZOS: The different ball-game was on the 12th of October. The caucus, your caucus member of equal rank to you on the 21st of October, said that the policy was still one of peace.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, obviously I can't speak for my colleague.

MR BIZOS: Right.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And I think it would be necessary for him to be examined in this respect.

MR BIZOS: No, he is not applying for amnesty, you are.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: But Mr Chairman, it is clear that the statement has caused confusion, and I think that he must be called.

MR BIZOS: Has it caused confusion or is it the truth?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It hasn't caused confusion in my mind, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: I see.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Because I am clearly aware of the situation which prevailed at that time.

MR BIZOS: You were a member of that caucus. After the 21st of October, did you attend the next caucus meeting and say how dare Du Plessis misinterpret our policy?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I don't even know whether I was in a position to attend the caucus meeting, the next caucus meeting, because as I explained earlier, I attended the President's Council and we sat for two weeks, and then we were away for two weeks and I am not sure of the timeframe in which this speech was said.

MR BIZOS: Are you suggesting that you did not attend a single caucus meeting between the 21st of October 1992 and the 7th or the 10th of April 1993, when you in association with Walus, Mr Walus, killed Chris Hani, that you didn't attend a single caucus meeting?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not suggesting that, Mr Chairman, but I most certainly ... (intervention).

MR BIZOS: Does that mean that you did?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not certain on which occasions I attended caucus meetings.

MR BIZOS: Never mind which occasion. Did you attend one or more caucus meetings after the 21st of October, yes or no?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not able to say, Mr Chairman, because I am not sure of the timeframe.

MR BIZOS: I have given you the timeframe, Sir.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry.

MR BIZOS: Between the 21st of October 1992 and the 10th of April 1993, did you ... (intervention).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman ...

MR BIZOS: Please listen to the question. Did you or did you not attend a caucus meeting of the Conservative Party?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not able to answer that question, Mr Chairman, for the simple reason that people who are aware of the procedures in Parliament, in any case, Mr Chairman, will be aware of the fact that to have a Parliamentary session in October of the year, would be an extraordinary session. It wouldn't be the normal operation of Parliament. Parliament then only once again, Mr Chairman, is prorogued in January or February, I believe, the opening of Parliament took place, and after that, Mr Chairman, there could have been a possibility of one meeting that I could have attended. But there is also a possibility that I didn't, I couldn't attend a meeting because I wasn't there when Parliament was in session. I am not sure of those dates.

MR BIZOS: Let's try another way. Did you attend any meetings of the executive of which you were a member of the Conservative Party between the 21st of October 1992 and the 10th of April 1993?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Once again, Mr Chairman, I can't recall, because of the overlap in President's Council's sessions and Parliamentary sessions, and if my memory serves me correctly, I was elected to the executive of the Transvaal some time towards the end of 1992.

MR BIZOS: Well, here was a wonderful opportunity to make a maiden speech on the executive, by saying how could - how could my colleague, Du Plessis, mislead Parliament and mislead the people of the country when in truth and in fact, the war has begun, how dare he insult Koos Botha in that manner and how dare he deny that we are in a war situation and that we can permit acts of violence? Was that part of your maiden speech at the executive towards the end of 1992?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, to the best of my memory at no time have I heard Mr Du Plessis saying that we weren't in a war situation. There is nothing in his speech which indicates that.

MR BIZOS: So you choose to place your own interpretation on the word, the clear words of Hansard and say that it was not a condemnation of violence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, it was a reference to speeches in the past by Dr Treurnicht. It was not referring to a current statement of Dr Treurnicht and I don't know when the statement that he is referring to in his speech, was made, but I am quite sure that it was made before October 1992.

MR BIZOS: Now has it not come ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just for my own information, after October 1992 were there sessions of the President's Council, and if so, could you tell me when the President's Council normally met, please?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not sure, Mr Chairman, because there was no normal dates.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I see.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: They would set the programme and then we would know that we would be sitting from this day to that day, for two weeks. That was the only thing that we knew that we would be there for a period of two weeks.

CHAIRPERSON: There was no calendar, no prearranged calendar of the sitting of the President's Council?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, there was, Mr Chairman, but it was never run in conjunction with the sittings of Parliament. It was, the President's Council was seen as a separate entity.

CHAIRPERSON: So then, if there was a calendar of the President's Council, you would be able to tell us when the sittings were?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Certainly, Mr Chairman, I would.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't have that information with you now?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Unfortunately not, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry to interrupt you.

MR BIZOS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, we will make arrangements, we will research that if Mr Derby-Lewis and his legal representatives don't.

Mr Derby-Lewis - no, you can talk to your counsel before I put my next question. I don't want to stop you.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Do you want to talk to him?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, my thing is going on and off, I just want to ... Mr Chairman, it is highly difficult to concentrate on what one is doing when these - the volume goes on and off all the time.

CHAIRPERSON: That is extremely unsatisfactory. I realise that Mr Derby-Lewis, and I think that it should be put right. It isn't fair that you have to wrestle and juggle with this and at the same time pay attention to what is being asked.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Now may I ask this, why are you wearing the earphones, Mr Derby-Lewis, don't you understand my English? (Laughter).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I have difficulty hearing what Mr Bizos is saying at times, because he doesn't talk out of his mouth, he talks within his mouth, and it comes over to me very blurred. (Laughter). It is only when he speaks for the audience that he seems to be very clear in his statements. (Laughter).

MR BIZOS: Mr Derby-Lewis, this is the first complaint I had of people not being able to hear me in 43 years. (Laughter andloud applause).

JUDGE WILSON: Well, Mr Bizos, I have never known you to speak with your hand in front of your mouth, so often, for 40 years, as you have been doing this morning. (Laughter).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. (Applause).

CHAIRPERSON: Can that be put right, Mr Derby-Lewis' earphone, can that be put right please.

JUDGE WILSON: Hasn't he got a new one?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry, I didn't hear that, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I am told that you have got a replacement. Is it correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have now, Mr Chairman, and it seems to be in order.

CHAIRPERSON: Just stop immediately there are any difficulties.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I am just trying to locate the actual Hansard page where Mr Du Plessis spoke, amongst this batch that Mr Bizos gave us. Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have the, I have now the reference, it is on page 12806.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, proceed, Mr Bizos.

MR BIZOS: What is it that you want to draw the Committee's attention to?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It has gone off again. Pardon?

MR BIZOS: What is it that you want to draw the Committee's attention to?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I want to draw the Committee's attention, Mr Chairman, to the following paragraph, where Mr Du Plessis is now speaking and he says that the reason why Koos Botha blames the CP, is because Koos Botha was at the Voortrekker Monument on the 26th of May 1990. He then goes further to say

"My honourable leader has said repeatedly...."

Obviously, Mr Chairman, that is a reference to past statements, and in my opinion the statement by Dr Treurnicht at Paardekraal overrules anything that he may have said in terms of Mr Du Plessis' reference regarding violence.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Sorry, just repeat that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, where Mr Du Plessis in his speech was attacking Mr Koos Botha, he attacked him on the basis that Mr Botha used as justification for his deeds the speech by Dr Treurnicht at the Voortrekker Monument on the 26th of May 1990. And he said here

"My honourable leader ..."

He said further -

"My honourable leader has said repeatedly that nothing gives an individual the right to commit crimes or misdeeds."

But he is obviously, Mr Chairman, referring to statements that my late leader had said, at earlier dates, and as far as I am concerned, the speech at Paardekraal on the 10th of October overruled any repeated statements that the individual doesn't have the right to commit crimes or misdeeds, because Treurnicht was clearly speaking war.

JUDGE NGOEPE: I think I am going to, Mr Bizos, if you don't mind, I think with regard to this aspect, I think I must ask the witness a question. You seem to say that in his speech at the Monument - at the Monument, Dr Treurnicht did not call for violence.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: May I answer, Mr Chairman?

JUDGE NGOEPE: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: What I said, was that that speech launched the third freedom struggle, which already at that stage ... (intervention).

JUDGE NGOEPE: I am talking violence.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, no, but the freedom struggle was a violent struggle, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE NGOEPE: So you are saying already on the - at the Monument, with his speech at the Monument, he was already calling for violence.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: He was already calling, declaring the third freedom struggle - freedom struggle number one ... (intervention).

JUDGE NGOEPE: I am sorry, I am talking violence.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry. No, not at that stage, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Not in 1990.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Correct, yes. So ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: He launched the freedom struggle.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Correct.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's right.

JUDGE NGOEPE: And please, I am talking about violence.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

JUDGE NGOEPE: I have no problems with the struggle.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

JUDGE NGOEPE: As such. I understand his speech to be saying that, but you are saying, as I understand you, that he did call for a struggle, but at that stage he had not as yet called for violence to be used?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Now you are saying at some stage you came to understand that the CP did call for violence to be used?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, that is correct, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Now my question is, normally when there is such a major shift in policy, the issue is debated, and if need be, vigorously, within any party. Now did such a debate take place within the Conservative Party between these two periods, between the speech at the Monument and the ultimate speech that you think called clearly for violence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, there were no official discussions held by the Conservative Party, but if one looks at the overall climate, where the Conservative Party had already in August drawn up their plans for mobilisation, it was clear that they were preparing for a war.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Mr Derby-Lewis, being an experienced politician yourself, would you not have - would you not expect that if the party makes such a major shift in policy, it would have to officially formally debate the issue?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, not necessarily, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Oh, I see.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And I can say, just in further expansion, Mr Chairman, I can say that the debate about the war was going on virtually in all CP circles. People were talking, they were asking how can they now participate, what can they do, and you will see already from 1990, as I refer to in Appendix A, Mr Chairman, many people had already interpreted what was going on, even before it was even discussed, and they started blowing things up and performing acts of war.

JUDGE NGOEPE: So should I understand, us understand you to say that because there had not been an official, as you put it, official formal discussion, there had in fact been no official stance taken?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman. As I mentioned in earlier testimony, the only person in the Conservative Party who is allowed to commit the Conservative Party to anything, without obtaining the approval of anyone within the party, is the leader of the Conservative Party, and Dr Treurnicht had done that.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Thank you. I just wanted to clear that aspect.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Are you suggesting, Mr Derby-Lewis, that Dr Treurnicht committed the Conservative Party to violence without discussing it with anyone?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I don't know what discussions Dr Treurnicht had, I wasn't fixed to him.

MR BIZOS: But ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: But this speech held at Paardekraal and I have been given the whole speech, Mr Chairman, and what happened at Paardekraal has to be seen in the correct context. It was very clear that the venue of Paardekraal was even chosen for this - the closest that Dr Andries Treurnicht could come to a declaration of war without actually declaring the war, it was clear from this, and, Mr Chairman, it was clear that it wasn't only my perception, it was the perception of many other people, including the media.

MR BIZOS: Let us ask you this. Dr Treurnicht never told you that there was a change of policy to go over to violence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Dr Treurnicht told me, Mr Chairman, in terms of the first paragraph of this clipping

"Die tyd is amper daar ..." (The time is nearly there ...)

That was in October already, Mr Chairman -

"... dat die Afrikanervolk gaan uitroep ..." (That the Afrikaner Volk will call out ..."

The Afrikaner nation. He wasn't talking about the CP - can I please just finish. That the Afrikaner Volk or nation is going to cry out that it cannot do anything else but to declare war.

Mr Chairman, who is the Afrikaner volk, the Afrikaner nation? I am the Afrikaner volk. Those people sitting there are the Afrikaner volk, they are here in support of myself. The Afrikaner volk launched a fund to pay my legal costs, my legal expenses. It was not Dr Treurnicht. Dr Treurnicht only verified what was in everybody's heads in any case, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: I will ask you the question again. Did Dr Treurnicht tell you personally that there was a change of CP policy from non-violence to violence? Yes or no.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I am unable to answer all of these ridiculous questions in a straight yes or no context, because yes or no is not a satisfactory way of answering it.

CHAIRPERSON: No, it may be possible to say Dr Treurnicht never told me or he told me.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, he is saying that did Dr Treurnicht tell me personally. In other words, he is insinuating that he expects Dr Treurnicht to take me one side and say there is a war.

CHAIRPERSON: Just answer that, just tell him that then.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: But I also want to say no, Mr Chairman, but I was present when he made the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And he was talking to me as a member of the Afrikaner volk.

CHAIRPERSON: Quite right. We understand the answer.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Right. Did Dr Hartzenberg ever tell you personally that the CP policy had changed from non-violence to violence? Yes or no.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, Dr Hartzenberg's statements are on the record of this court, of this Committee.

MR BIZOS: Please answer my question.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: He did not tell me personally, once again.

MR BIZOS: Thank you.

MR BIZOS: Did any other leader of the Conservative Party tell you personally that there was a change of policy by the CP from non-violence to violence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Thank you. Now can we go to the next statement in The Citizen?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Is this page 3?

MR BIZOS: Page 4R. It is the same section, R3 - I beg your pardon, did I say R4 again? R3, a Citizen article on page 4, subsection (a), page 3.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Subsection (a), page 3?

MR BIZOS: (a), yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Subsection (a), page 3, Mr Chairman, is a Citizen report regarding a reference by the AWB leader to Walus. Is that the one?

MR BIZOS: Yes. Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Page 3, right.

MR BIZOS: Now ...

CHAIRPERSON: There are two articles on page 3, which one are you referring to, Mr Bizos?

JUDGE WILSON: They run on.

MR BIZOS: Yes, Sir, they have to be ...

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I beg your pardon.

MR BIZOS: You see there Walus is AWB member, ET, but then if you have a look at the paragraph on the right-hand side.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I see, so the bottom half is a continuation.

MR BIZOS: Is a continuation.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR BIZOS: Yes.

"Mr Terreblanche said he condemned the assassination but that he understood the motive, the motive any White would have for killing Mr Hani. He disapproved of the attack because it was an assassination and not a kill in a real war, adding, `if it had been a proper battle, I would have killed Mr Hani myself'."

And then he goes on.

Now did the leader of the AWB whose meetings you attended, or with whom you associated, ever tell you that assassination was part and parcel of the AWB's policy?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, my thing has acted up again, I only got half of the question. Can Mr Bizos please repeat.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, unfortunately, we will just have to be patient. We will just have to be patient, Mr Bizos, and ...

MR BIZOS: I am that and I will try my best not to ... (Laughter). Did the man with whom you appeared on the same platform, with whom you marched and with whom you were praised, ever tell you that before the murder, ever tell you that the AWB policy was in favour of assassination of political leaders, yes or no?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Good. I also want to ask you something. Did you as an officer and a gentleman to which you went to tremendous lengths to persuade us on in your lengthy evidence, Mr Derby-Lewis, isn't an assassination abhorrent to an army officer and a gentleman?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, in certain circumstances, anything is acceptable. If one studies the war there were very numerous cases where assassinations were planned by military men in terms of the war which was being waged.

MR BIZOS: Isn't the ethic to which apparently Mr Terreblanche was brought up on, that you kill in war, but you do not - you do not go about assassinating people, is that a distinction which never occurred to you as an officer and a gentleman?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, as far as Mr Terreblanche's ethics are concerned, I am not able to comment. As far as I am concerned, we were in a war-time situation, which justified any action for the defence and protection of your people's rights. Any action whatsoever.

MR BIZOS: You said, Mr Derby-Lewis, that Mr Terreblanche never told you that assassination was permissible. Is there any other leader of any other rightwing political party or organisation, that told you that assassination was in order for his or her organisation?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, because I would never discuss that with anyone else, because of the extent to which the right had been infiltrated by the State.

MR BIZOS: So that no political organisation on the right ever told you that assassination was its policy?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, but they obviously carried out their own assassinations.

MR BIZOS: Please confine yourself to answers of my question, please.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman ...

MR BIZOS: So that we do not have to go off on a tangent. If you want to add anything, you have counsel sitting next to you who is making careful notes who can make them in due course. Please try and confine yourself to the answering the question, if you can.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was directed at you about a leader or leaders of rightwing organisations.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I understood that.

CHAIRPERSON: And I think you should just confine yourself whether any leaders told you that it was their policy.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes. I said no, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I can understand followers of organisations doing things.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But the question is now directed as to leaders of the organisation.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And I answered that question in the negative, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BIZOS: Now if we could have a look at page 11 of the same bundle, 3(a).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Page 11 of 3(a)?

MR BIZOS: Of R3, section A, page 11.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Page 11. I think I have it, Mr Chairman, yes.

MR BIZOS: Yes.

"Clive's arrest was a great shock to CP leaders in Cape Town. The arrest of Mr Clive Derby-Lewis, member of the President's Council of the Conservative Party, in connection with the murder of Mr Chris Hani, was a great shock to the CP leaders."

And then -

"The CP at this stage does not consider any actions or steps to be taken against him."

And then the next paragraph says:

"Dr Andries Treurnicht, CP leader, who is convalescing in hospital after having a heart attack, only heard the shocking news yesterday morning. It was kept away from Dr Treurnicht until Dr Willie Snyman, CP MP for Pietersburg and a medical doctor, told him in hospital yesterday that he is somebody who was his confidante is a suspect in the sensational murder case and is being detained. Dr Snyman also said that everybody in the CP were shocked to hear about Mr Derby-Lewis' arrest. He was, however, not of the opinion that Treurnicht was very shocked because there is nothing in politics that upsets one to a greater extent. There is also nothing more known of the case against Mr Derby-Lewis. Dr Ferdie Hartzenberg, deputy leader of the CP, said yesterday it came out of the blue and it caught the CP off-guard."

Now the gentleman referred to in this (...indistinct)?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Did they speak the truth, and more particularly, Dr Ferdie Hartzenberg, that your "possible involvement came out of the blue", and that the Conservative Party was taken by surprise that one of its leading members was alleged to have committed a murder?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I don't know what Dr Hartzenberg said, but from what appears here, that is reported as to what he said, particularly as far as the quotation is concerned, and that is "uit die bloute" (out of the blue) and in other words it came out of the blue. But -"en het die KP onverhoeds betrap" (caught the CP offguard), doesn't appear to be his words, so I don't know what he said in the full context.

MR BIZOS: Well, in order not to delay these proceedings, at the commencement, Mr Derby-Lewis, we requested by drawing attention to all the statements said to have been made by leaders of the Conservative Party, whether they will be admitted or denied, that they were correctly reported or not. Have you and your legal representatives taken any steps to ask these honourable leaders whether they were correctly reported or not during the course of last week?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I think Mr Chairman, I will let my legal representative answer that question because he would have a much closer contact with them, because it is very difficult for me to converse with anybody in this situation.

MR BIZOS: I accept that. Could the counsel for the applicant please respond to the request that we made in the beginning of last week, Mr Chairman?

MR PRINSLOO: The reply to that is no, Mr Chairman, we have not yet consulted with the leaders or people referred to.

MR BIZOS: May I request, Mr Chairman, that the Committee directs the applicant and his legal representatives to let us know as soon as possible, because this cross-examination cannot really be pressed home by Mr Derby-Lewis saying that he doesn't know whether they were correctly reported or not, and he may have to be recalled later. So can we please know, Mr Chairman, when we will be told whether the statements that we referred to on the first day, were made by the leaders of the Conservative Party or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible to attend to this matter as expeditiously as possible, during the proceedings some time?

MR PRINSLOO: We will do so, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PRINSLOO: We will respond to this.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Can we move on to some other aspect, if it is not convenient to carry on questioning on these Press statements?

MR BIZOS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I will have to reorganise my examination.

CHAIRPERSON: You may continue putting these questions and in re-examination, maybe he will be able to clear it up.

MR BIZOS: Yes, I will put it on the basis that they have not been denied, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BIZOS: And then my learned friend, counsel for the applicant can choose to let us know. If they dispute them I am assuming that they will call the friends of the applicant to dispute it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, alright. At any rate they will have the opportunity of re-examining their witness.

MR BIZOS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: After consulting whoever they wish to.

MR BIZOS: Yes. Then may we have a look at R3, Section H, page 3. You see this is from Beeld

"The Government is trying to link the CP to the murder of Mr Chris Hani by arresting a member of the CP and Dr Ferdie Hartzenberg, deputy leader said that yesterday. That was on the ..."

(...indistinct) Now at that stage it would appear that Dr Hartzenberg believed that you were innocent and that your arrest was a "komplot" of the Government. Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Apparently, yes, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Yes, that would be because you had kept your planning and execution of Chris Hani's murder from the acting leader of the Conservative Party.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, he was not the acting leader of the Conservative Party. This report says clearly "onder-leier van die KP", not acting leader.

MR BIZOS: Well, thank you for that correction. At that time Dr Treurnicht was hardly in a position to make any Press statements, and the "onder-leier" made that on his behalf. In any event, the question is, that Dr Hartzenberg, never mind his correct designation, thought that you were innocent and the victim of a National Party Government "komplot" to falsely implicate you in the murder. Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: From this report, yes, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: As far as you are concerned, the deputy leader of the Conservative Party knew nothing about your involvement in it even after your arrest.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman, because in terms of Section 29 I had no access to him to tell him anything about it, and as I testified earlier, I actually read out a copy of a statement which I eventually had to smuggle out of the Section 29 detention, in order to claim responsibility for the deed.

MR BIZOS: Now the gravamen of my question, Mr Derby-Lewis, is that he obviously knew nothing about your involvement.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I replied to that in the affirmative, Mr Chairman, already.

CHAIRPERSON: By that, I think I would like clarity, whether your involvement prior, in other words, Dr Hartzenberg knew nothing about the fact that you were planning to do what had happened?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: He ... (intervention).

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Bizos, are you going on with what happens thereafter on this article?

MR BIZOS: "He said in the debate about the State President's budget, he asked whether Mr Clive Derby-Lewis, the CP member of the President's Council who was this weekend arrested in connection with the murder of Mr Hani, whether he was going to be charged, and what he is going to be charged for."

Further evidence that he knew nothing about it and he cast aspersions about the integrity of the persons who arrested or caused his arrest. Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: And then he goes on to say that

"Dr Hartzenberg had said that Mrs Winnie Mandela ..."

He mentioned two names in the London Times of two ANC members who allegedly were involved with the murder of Mr Chris Hani, but the Government is too scared to arrest them. Tell me, you didn't co-operate with two ANC members in killing Mr Chris Hani, did you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, I did not.

MR BIZOS: Yes, well, we can disregard that report then.

"The Government will not also arrest Mr Mokaba, the leader of the ANC Youth League, who said that Boere must be murdered. The CP can be investigated concerning the murder of Mr Hani, because nothing will be found there, because he is not involved with murders; the ANC should be investigated."

Well, that's a false statement that was made by Mr Hartzenberg, false in fact, he - I am not saying for one moment that he knew of your involvement, but it was false in fact, is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, but understandable in the circumstances, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: I see, yes. What is understandable? That Dr Hartzenberg should blame the ANC and the National Party Government and not you? Is that what's understandable?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I didn't say that, Mr Chairman, because he wasn't talking about me, he was talking about the ANC.

MR BIZOS: Yes, he said that the ANC and the Government were responsible when you knew - when you know that you and Walus did it alone.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: He didn't say the ANC and the Government were responsible, Mr Chairman. It is clear from this statement that he was pointing fingers at the ANC only.

MR BIZOS: Oh, and that the Government was too afraid to investigate it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct, yes.

MR BIZOS: Yes, very well. Now let's - can we please go to the next one. Section C, page 1, in The Citizen. R3, page 1.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have it, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: "CP Derby-Lewis Smokescreen.

The arrest of Conservative Party President councillor, Mr Clive Derby-Lewis ..."

It is the same speech, but reported in another paper -

"....CP Deputy Leader, Dr Ferdie Hartzenberg said yesterday. Speaking during the debate on the State President's Vote he said that the CP did not kill people and that the Government would not find anything out which it could hold against the party."

That too turned out to be incorrect.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's right, Mr Chairman, because he was not aware of the details.

MR BIZOS: He was - not of the details, he didn't know that one, and he was shocked, that one of its leading members had made himself guilty of murder.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, he wasn't shocked at that. He was shocked that I was arrested on suspicion of having committed the murder. Because he didn't know at that time whether I had committed a murder or not.

MR BIZOS: Oh. Are you going to say that if he knew that you had committed a murder, he would have sent you a congratulatory telegram? (Laughter).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not saying anything, Mr Chairman, because that would be pure speculation.

MR BIZOS: Now what I want to put to you, Mr Derby-Lewis, that you are denying the obvious and that you are denial is false. Not only are there these cuttings, but also we will show a full interview with the leader of the Conservative Party, of an interview between Mr Lester Venter and him on the SABC, in which your leader in the Conservative Party, dissociates himself and the Conservative Party completely from the policy of violence and from you, if in fact you were shown to be guilty. Have you any comment to make if those - if the facts as I've put to you up to now are correctly reported, and if that interview with Mr Lester Venter is shown to the Committee?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, could Mr Bizos, before I answer that question, tell me what date the interview was carried out?

MR BIZOS: Shortly after your arrest.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: What date, Mr Chairman?

MR BIZOS: The tape, Mr Chairman, is in the possession of the Commission. From the content it is clear that it was shortly after the funeral of Mr Chris Hani, but we will establish the precise date.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Why I ask the question, Mr Chairman, is because in his introduction of this question, Mr Bizos once again referred to Dr Hartzenberg as the leader of the Conservative Party.

MR BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And it would depend on the date of that interview as to confirm the veracity or otherwise of that statement.

MR BIZOS: Well, let me just change my question and say the deputy-leader of the Conservative Party. (Laughter). If it makes so much difference to you. Don't become involved with minutiae, Mr Derby-Lewis, please answer the gravamen of the question.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Bizos he is entitled to have an idea...(intervention)

MR BIZOS: ... of the date...

CHAIRPERSON: ...about when that statement was made.

MR BIZOS: Shortly after the day.

CHAIRPERSON: It can be cleared up.

MR BIZOS: We will give him the precise date.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MR BIZOS: After the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Because as I testified, Mr Chairman, only the leader of the Conservative Party is allowed to make policy statements without first going to an executive and getting their approval. So it is very relevant that date.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BIZOS: Are you saying that the deputy leader of the Conservative Party, if he is recorded as having said,

that the Conservative Party would have nothing to do with violence, and it was not its policy, that he is not an authorised person to speak on behalf of the party, whilst the leader is in hospital with a heart attack? Is that what you are saying?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: What I am saying is, Mr Chairman, is that the constitution clearly states what the procedure is, and I have explained that procedure.

MR BIZOS: Please answer the question.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And that is that the leader alone can make statements without first going back to an executive and clearing it with them.

MR BIZOS: Are you saying that the deputy leader of the Conservative Party can not, has no authority to say what the policy of the party is in relation to violence whilst the leader is in hospital with a serious heart attack?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, as I said, I am not aware of the date. I don't know whether Dr Treurnicht in fact was in hospital at that time.

MR BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Can we wait until we have the date of the interview, then I can answer that question.

MR BIZOS: Yes, well, it is readily available, it is just not with the Commission, it is not ...

JUDGE WILSON: As I understand what Mr Bizos is saying, is not that the deputy leader is creating new policy, but the deputy leader is merely stating what the policy of the party is. He is not making any new rulings, he is not making any new decisions.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: That is your question isn't it Mr Bizos?

MR BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And that is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: If you are going to move on to something else, perhaps we might consider that to be this an appropriate stage to take the adjournment.

MR BIZOS: I don't know what time you intend taking the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry ... The Committee will take an adjournment for 15 minutes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CLIVE DERBY-LEWIS: (Still under affirmation).

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS: (cont)

Will you please turn to page R3, page 20 to page 21? This would be the sections, all of them. I am going to put a general question. R3 is in - I just want to see the section, Mr Chairman. The index is not in any particular section, Mr Chairman. If you have a look at page 20, statements by Conservative Party contradicting. It is - oh, I beg your pardon. I am looking at my notes in cross-examination rather than R3 proper. I beg your pardon. Give me R3, please, and the index.

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman, whilst Mr Bizos is going through his documents, may I request the Committee to release the gentlemen who were warned to be here today, that is the policemen, Mr Deetliefs, Pieters and Beegman, with the rider that we shall keep in touch with their lawyers whenever they are needed. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, are you in a position to give some indication as to when you may require these witnesses?

MR BIZOS: Mr Chairman, certainly not today. What I would suggest, with respect, that they be excused. They have a legal representative at Brakpan. The Commission counsel has his number, and that we will give them reasonable notice when they would be required by the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Has this been conveyed, Mr Mpshe, to the gentlemen concerned?

MR MPSHE: It has been conveyed, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let it be placed on record, that those who have been subpoenaed to attend these hearings and who are here this morning, that you will not be required this morning and that your attorney will inform you and give you adequate notice as to when you will be required. Until then you are excused from further attendance.

MR MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. What section are we now going to deal with? R3, section what?

MR BIZOS: I am trying to save time and I do not want to put all the statements that have been placed before the Committee to the witness at this stage, because many of them are repetitions of a widely reported statement made in Parliament. So it would be repetitive for me to read them out. I merely want to ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you don't have to read them out. You can just give the reference.

MR BIZOS: Yes, Mr Chairman. The further ones are to be found at R3, Section F, page 1 of The Citizen, in the - in Section ...

JUDGE WILSON: Haven't you asked him a great many questions about F1 already, Mr Bizos?

MR BIZOS: I want to leave them out for the time-being, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you may proceed.

MR BIZOS: And we will come back because we are now in a position to really - to really get down to indisputable evidence in relation to CP policy. Although the video-machine is not here, we have a transcript of what is said and we want to hand that in, and I am going to put the contents of that to the witness as to whether he agrees or disagrees with it and what the position was.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you rather not to do that after he has had a chance of seeing the video?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Please, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: There is no machinery now available to show it, but the video has been given to the other side, I understand. It will be made available to the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, they have seen the video?

MR PRINSLOO: No, Mr Chairman, we have not seen the video.

CHAIRPERSON: Pardon?

MR PRINSLOO: We have not seen the video, it is still in possession of the other side.

CHAIRPERSON: You were given it?

MR PRINSLOO: We were given it, we did not look at that, at a very brief time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: It was given and taken back again, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: I am instructed, Mr Chairman, that two copies were available, we took one and they took one.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Anyway, let's not quibble about whether you were given and taken away, the fact of the matter is that you haven't had a chance of seeing it.

MR PRINSLOO: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Now if you wish to put questions on the statement on the transcript, they have got a copy of that, have they?

MR BIZOS: I am going to give it to them now, Mr Chairman, it has just arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: Once again, Mr Derby-Lewis, you are going to be questioned on a transcript of a document.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Which I haven't seen, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand. If questions are put which you are able to answer, you will answer. Where you can't answer, then you will say so. The reason for that obviously being that you would like to see the video or the transcript itself.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: There is internal contents in the video as to when the date was, Mr Chairman. You will see that there are references to events. It is an Agenda programme and Penny Smythe says

"Good evening and welcome to Agenda on Tuesday."

On what day were you arrested, Mr Derby-Lewis?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: On Saturday, the 17th of April, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Well, you may be able to infer the date from the contents, Mr Chairman.

"The assassination of Chris Hani and the subsequent arrest of senior Conservative Party MP, Clive Derby-Lewis, has rocked the CP. To discuss the implications of these and other events, our political correspondent, Lester Venter, is joined by the CP's deputy leader, Dr Ferdie Hartzenberg in Cape Town."

Apparently, Mr Chairman, the set is now here, so we may be able to run it contemporaneously. Is that so, Mr Chairman, can the video person put it on?

CHAIRPERSON: Is there somebody who can answer?

LADY: You will be able to see it, ja.

CHAIRPERSON: How long will it take for you to put it right?

LADY: Five, 10 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Call us immediately you are ready to do so.

JUDGE WILSON: Before we do that, Mr Bizos, are you giving this a number?

MR BIZOS: Yes, Mr Chairman. I think the (indistinct - not speaking into microphone) the Commission is the keeper of the index of the documents, I hope, Mr Chairman, I don't know what the next number is going to be.

CHAIRPERSON: R6 perhaps.

MR BIZOS: So this would be R6.

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman, you can refer to it as R6. R6.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Well, call us as soon as you are ready.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

VIDEO APPARATUS BEING INSTALLED

CLIVE DERBY-LEWIS: (Still under affirmation).

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS: (cont)

Yes, Mr Chairman, I am instructed that - you will see on the screen the first page, where it is a little jumpy apparently but once you have -there is nothing wrong with the sound, and once we have the transcript, which I am sure is a correct one, we will - may just have to suffer the bad picture, and then we will go on to the Agenda programme. If there is any jumping there as well, it will not be prejudicial because of the transcript we have, I submit, and I will ask them to carry on.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

VIDEO OF AGENDA

ELLEN ERASMUS

"... has again voiced his party's disapproval of the arrest of Mr Clive Derby-Lewis in connection with the Hani assassination, a standpoint which brought a response today from the Police:

MR FERDIE HARTZENBERG

We are upset about the whole situation because the Government has changed their attitude three times now. In the first instance they said they arrested Mr Clive Derby-Lewis as a suspect. Then they said they are detaining him to question him, and now he is being detained in terms of Section 29 of the Act. We don't know what the position is, because it seems to us that they can't build up a case against him and we think that they should rather investigate the allegations of Mrs Winnie Mandela, who said that the ANC was responsible for the murder on Mr Hani."

MR BIZOS: That was part of the news section. We will now move on to the Agenda. It is not necessary really to confirm it, but will you agree that that was Dr Hartzenberg speaking, Mr Derby-Lewis?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Yes. Yes?

VIDEO CONTINUES

PRESENTER - PENNY SMYTHE

"On Agenda tonight the Conservative Party (indistinct - voice fades ...) following the Hani assassination. (Indistinct ...)." (Recording cannot be heard to transcribe)

DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG

"(Indistinct ....) in South Africa, because the government and the ANC has already agreed on a constitution-making body on a transitional government, but now the ANC announced that they are going with a mass action until the government has promised the date of the election. And the fact is that they create the violence. Because their leaders, they made statements and acts, they killed people at the funeral yesterday, nine people were killed; 19 before the time, and they regard it as a success, and we think it was a total failure from a point of view of law and order and maintenance and stability.

MR VENTER

Forgive me for interrupting you. I hear what you say that the Conservative Party is not involved in planning the violence, but how do you account for the fact then that two of your members have been associated, and these are members of the party, these are public representatives, these are not people elsewhere in local (indistinct). of supporters.

DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG

(Indistinct) It is not - the party didn't plan any act, actually the party said in all its meetings, at its congresses, that our aim is to create a political situation in South Africa where there will be peace and stability.

MR VENTER

But if it is not the party, how does it happen, Dr Hartzenberg?

DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG

Well, it happens all over the world.

MR VENTER: Political parties?

DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG

Political parties all over the world. Well, a member of the National Party killed a labourer on his farm the other day. Is that the National Party, means that the National Party is involved in violence and killings? It happens all over the world and all over this country.

MR VENTER

So your point is that there isn't a pattern developing, that there isn't a culture of violence?

DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG

No, not in the Conservative Party.

MR VENTER

If one looks at the sort of statements that are made by the leadership of the party, yourself included, is the statements the talk repeatedly about the need for resistance, armed resistance - I had a look through the files there is a file of Press cuttings, all of the same direction. Now admittedly none of those are a direct call to arms, but is not the open-ended nature of this sort of threatening talk, amounting to a tacit approval of violence?

DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG

No, no, not at all. You know, our nation, the Afrikaner nation has a history of protest and sometimes they used weapons to protest, but that is not to make a war, but to make sure that the people know that we are serious and the fact is, that we has a right as a nation to freedom and self-determination. And what is happening at the moment in the country, points to a situation where the Communist is going to take over this country, and that we will never accept. And therefore, we say if that happens in South Africa, it will not be accepted by our nation, and therefore, we say at the beginning of this century we fought a war against the biggest country in the world, for our freedom. And don't push us too far because if you take that risk, that might happen again and that is why the Conservative Party put our case, we made the statement and we propose the policy just to prevent that situation.

MR VENTER

So you are saying if, if this takeover that you are talking about, then a violent resistance to it. So it is a situation that hasn't arisen yet?

DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG

Look, Mr Venter, we have watched the news tonight and we have seen the violence in Yugoslavia. It is being created as a result of a political situation, and the Government and the ANC want to create the same situation in South Africa. And we will not be responsible for what is going to happen if that situation is created in South Africa. We warned them, but we are not going to accept a Communist government over our nation.

MR VENTER

I would like to return to that point, but talking about the news, the item relevant there was that the European Parliament is going to investigate rightwing connections between Europe and South Africa. Now this flows from the connections of members such as Mr Derby-Lewis and the various organisations.

DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG

Ja.

MR VENTER

Any comments on this investigation, that will touch your party?

DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG

If you will allow me I will answer this one in Afrikaans.

MR VENTER

Please.

DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG

Dit is vir my 'n groot verrassing dat hulle nou die konneksie tussen mnr Derby-Lewis en sekere regse groepe in Europa wil ondersoek. Hoekom ondersoek hulle nie die konneksies tussen politieke leiers in Afrika met Kommunistiese Partye in Europa nie? Hoekom ondersoek die Europese Parlement nie die uitlatings wat mev Winnie Mandela gemaak het, naamlik dat die ANC verantwoordelik is vir hierdie moord en dat sy twee name genoem het, en dat hulle nou daaroor begaan is. Ek dink hierdie hele poging is daarop gemik om die aandag af te trek van die geweld wat veroorsaak is deur die Regering en die ANC. Hulle is verantwoordelik daarvoor. Nou word daar 'n sondebok gesoek.

MNR VENTER

Maar die Europese Parlement (onduidelik) en hulle sameswering (onduidelik).

DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG

Die Europese Parlement wil graag hê dit wat die Regering en die ANC voorstel moet plaasvind in Suid-Afrika, en hulle weet net so goed soos ons weet, hier is te veel weerstand daarteen, nie net van ons nie, maar van baie ander partye, nasies, state in Suid-Afrika wat nie die situasie wil hê nie.

MR VENTER

Talking about resistance, Dr Hartzenberg, and before you leave the Afrikaans ...(intervention)

DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG

Ja.

MR VENTER

You said yesterday in Parliament "die volk sal in opstand moet kom teen oorname". The nation will have to come, a rising resistance against the take-over of the ANC and the SACP. Do you accept that such a take-over might be the logical democratic outcome of an open election in South Africa?

DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG

Well, I don't think there will be an open election in South Africa.

MR VENTER

Why not?

DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG

In the first instance because

as I have said just now, the Government and the ANC already agreed on the election of a constituent assembly and on a transitional executive council.

MR VENTER

Is that not an election?

DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG

That is not an election if now they must negotiate it and they must determine whether other parties also support it. But now the ANC announced that they are going with mass action to determine these things. In other words, they are not interested in negotiations.

MR VENTER

Does that mean that you are opposed to an open free election in the country?

DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG

Of course, we believe that there must be elections for the nations and the states who prefer to be free and have self-determination.

MR VENTER

If the drive towards negotiations which it clearly is at the moment, is to the creation of such an election, what is the CP doing in those negotiations?

DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG

Laat ek net vir jou een ding vertel, en dit is, minstens ons volk is nie te vinde vir 'n oorheersing deur die ANC en die Kommunistiese Party of enigiemand anders nie. Ons is nie die enigste nie. Daar is ander state en ander volke wat dieselfde wil hê en ons doel is om juis dit by die onderhandelingstafel duidelik te stel, sodat daar voorsiening voor gemaak kan word. En as daarvoor voorsiening gemaak word, dit is wat ons voorstel, dat state en volke wat vry wil wees en selfbeskikking wil hê en onafhanklik self wil wees, dat hulle moet toegelaat word om te doen. Alleen dan kan jy vrede in Suid-Afrika hê, maar as 'n meerderheid 'n klomp volke wil oorheers, sal jy nooit vrede in Suid-Afrika hê nie. En dit is presies wat ons by die onderhandelingstafel voor gesorg het dat selfbeskikking op die lys kom.

MR VENTER

Granted. But if the negotiations carry on the track that they are at the moment, and that is the end goal being immediate, end goal being an open election, are you saying that the Conservative Party will pull out of those negotiations?

DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG

We have only one point on our agenda, and whether we fight elections or we participate in Parliament or in any form or in mobilisation, we have only one point on our agenda, and that is the freedom and self-determination of our nation.

MR VENTER

Dr Hartzenberg ... (intervention).

DR FERDIE HARTZENBERG

And if it becomes clear that negotiations will not deliver that, then it will be meaningless to participate, then we will sign our own funeral arrangements and we are not going to do that, we are not prepared to do that.

MR VENTER

Dr Hartzenberg, thank you very much. That is from us in Parliament in Cape Town, back to you, Penny."

MR BIZOS: Mr Derby-Lewis, to date this interview you will see that on the first page, "that the funeral yesterday", it is well-known and it will be shown on another video that the funeral was on the 19th. So please assume that this interview was on the 20th of April 1993. Now I want to read to you on page 1 of the transcript, I beg your pardon, it is page 2. Page 1 of the Agenda interview.

"Is there a culture of violence developing in the Conservative Party?"

And the answer is:

"No, not at all, Mr Venter, the Conservative Party has never since its inception planned acts of violence. Actually the planning of the Conservative Party has at its aim to prevent violence in the country by offering a political solution that we would create peace and stability and prosperity in South Africa."

Do you agree or disagree with that policy formulation of the Conservative Party, spoken by Dr Hartzenberg?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: You agree with that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

MR BIZOS: Now and the - on the third page of the transcript

"If one looks at the sort of statements that are made by the leadership of the party, yourself included, these are statements that talk repeatedly about the need for resistance, armed resistance. I have looked through the files, there is a pile of Press cuttings, all to the same, of the same direction. Now admittedly none of those are direct calls to arms, but it is not an open-ended nature of the sort of threatening talk amounting to tacit approval?

No, not at all".

Do you agree with that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, no political leader would go on record as stating that he supports violence. I agree with that statement.

MR BIZOS: No, the question was ... (intervention).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: As put by Dr Treurnicht, I agree.

MR BIZOS: Are you saying - are you saying that Dr Hartzenberg was lying?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I am not saying anything of the sort and Mr Bizos knows that. I am saying that no matter what the circumstance, no political party leader would go on record as propagating violence, even if the objective was violence.

MR BIZOS: Let's us examine that. Let us examine that, Mr Derby-Lewis. First of all, the statement on the first page

"No, not at all, Mr Venter ..."

That paragraph deals with the questions of whether there was a policy of violence, and he says for a culture of violence and he says "no". Then it is put to him -

"Well, you may say no but there are threats of resistance and armed resistance and threatening talk.Does that not mean that the party has a policy of violence".

He says -

"No, not at all."

You say that you accept that this is what Dr Hartzenberg said, correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: The official policy of the party, yes.

MR BIZOS: I see. So did - are you now saying that Dr Hartzenberg gave the policy that the CP was giving out, but he was being untruthful to the people of South Africa by saying that there was no culture of violence and that this talk did not mean that the CP was for violence, was just for the benefit of misleading the public?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, it is clear from what Dr Treurnicht says here that he was responding to the statement by Venter which reads as follows

"But is not the open-ended nature of this sort of threatening talk amounting to tacit approval of violence?

No, no, not at all."

MR BIZOS: Yes. Well, is that true or is it untrue?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I fail to understand why Mr Bizos didn't continue on the first page with Dr Treurnicht's words, because there I think he categorises it.

MR BIZOS: No, please, let me ask the questions that I want to ask the way I want to ask them. You have counsel and he can ask you questions the way that may be more suitable to you. Please answer my questions as I put them to you.

JUDGE WILSON: Can't he answer them the way he wants to answer them, Mr Bizos? (Laughter).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Apparently not, Mr Chairman. (Applause).

MR BIZOS: He can answer them but provided it is an answer, and what I am suggesting is that it is not an answer. The statements are categorical statements that there was no culture of violence. I want to know whether that is true or untrue. He said that it is true. Now does that mean that what Dr Hartzenberg said in those two passages is incorrect, and was he telling or misleading the public of South Africa, yes or no?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Not at all, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Not at all?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No.

MR BIZOS: Right. If you say that he was not misleading them, then the statements can't be true. A leader cannot both say that there was no culture of violence and you tell us that it is the truth, if you - and yet say that there was a hidden policy.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, Dr Hartzenberg says in his second paragraph after the paragraph that Mr Bizos quoted

"The violence is not in the Conservative Party, it is outside the Conservative Party."

So the Conservative Party didn't need to have a policy of violence, it was already there, Mr Chairman. And I want to remind this Committee that I have testified earlier, and it looks as though I will have to repeat what I said during my testimony, I testified earlier that at a speech held at the finalisation of the CP's mobilisation campaign in Pretoria on the 19th of March, Dr Treurnicht said the following:

"Communism ..."

And this is bundle A3, Mr Chairman, and it is item, page 7, and it states the following ...

CHAIRPERSON: The reference which bundle, you said A3?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: A3, Mr Chairman, it is actually titled by us bundle C and it is to do with CP mobilisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry. Thank you.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, it reads as follows

"Communism in South Africa is alive and well and the mobilisation will oppose the blatant challenge of the ANC, SACP, APLA, through coordinated action and resistance, where necessary, in the interests of our people, our freedom and our country."

He quoted an ANC spokesman as saying the following:

"For Communists even peace is war, negotiations is a site for the struggle. Negotiations is war and of course, war is war."

Then it says further, Mr Chairman -

"Dr Treurnicht's reaction to this statement was as follows: do the Mandelas, Hanis, Tambos, Ronnie Kasrils and the Ramaphosas think they will be able to carry out their plans without resistance? If they believe that they can paralyse this country and make it ungovernable, do they think that there is no possibility of a counter-strategy? We can also say the following: `those who live by the sword must beware that they do not die by the sword'."

I think it is clear, Mr Chairman, from that statement that Dr Treurnicht wasn't talking about a garden party where everyone was going to sit around and chat and have tea and what-have-you.

Mr Chairman, I ask the indulgence of this Committee because I am going to also submit to the Committee - I don't know whether it has already been distributed, another series of clippings, also regarding the whole aspect of CP support for myself as a result of this action. If we can just ask Mr Mpshe to give us a series number for it.

MR MPSHE: F.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It will be F according to Mr, to my ...

MR PRINSLOO: The last time it was E, Mr Chairman, so I think it will be allocated F.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Bundle F. And in this bundle, Mr Chairman, and this is page number 11, of the bundle. Sorry, Mr Chairman, if I can just organise that you receive a copy of that. Would you prefer that before I quote of this let you have the bundle, Mr Chairman, because it is ready.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's try and proceed as fast as we can and let's ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, let's carry on, and let you have it. If somebody can just collect it and distribute it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. On page 11 which is continuation of page 10, which is the report in the Rapport of the 18th of the 4th 1997, no, sorry, Rapport, can't be 1997, must be 1993. If I can just correct that page 2 of that report is on page 11, Mr Chairman, and this is a statement by the official spokesman for the Conservative Party, Dr Pieter Mulder - and it reads as follows

"Dr Pieter Mulder, MP of Schweizer-Reneke, and the CP's official spokesman, yesterday evening said he cannot react at this stage because he does not know whether or not Mr Derby-Lewis was arrested on a charge and whether he was only detained for questioning. He said he questioned Mr Derby-Lewis with regards to rumoured connections with the Walus brothers and he gained the impression that there had been such an association in the past."

I think it is also material to mention, Mr Chairman, seeing that the whole question of the period ...(intervention).

MR BIZOS: Mr Chairman, I have patiently listened to the handing-in of documents, which they didn't even have the courtesy to give us a copy of. In answer to a simple question and I would appeal to the Committee, Mr Chairman, not to give this witness his head from time to time to avoid answering questions, by quoting at length from documents.

The question was a simple one. We are on page 1 of the transcript of the report of Agenda and the question was, is the statement by Dr Hartzenberg correct that there was no violence in the Conservative Party, and we have reached the stage that violence is not in the Conservative Party, it is outside the Conservative Party. The question was a simple one: did Dr Hartzenberg in that paragraph and the two sentences in the next paragraph correctly represent Conservative Party policy at the time of Mr Chris Hani's murder or not? That is the question that I am sure that the Committee wants an answer to. And not what Dr Treurnicht said in Kimberly some time before that or what anyone else may have said, which is subject to interpretation, can we have a simple answer to that question? And may I appeal to the witness to please listen to the question and answer it, and not regard it as a licence to read at his pleasure from various documents.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, may I ask a question before I answer that question?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Now is it permissible for Mr Bizos to tell me how I must answer questions? I am trying to present the whole circumstance here and he is preventing me from doing this.

CHAIRPERSON: No I think that as far as possible your counsel can ask you all the questions he thinks is appropriate to clarify anything which he thinks ought to be clarified, if he thinks you have omitted something, he will have the right to elicit that evidence from you.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I understand that, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think that for the time being if you are asked a direct question and if there is an answer to that, you should answer that.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I understand that, Mr Chairman, but with those specific two sentences referred to by Mr Bizos, where Dr Hartzenberg clearly said the violence is not in the Conservative Party, it is outside the Conservative Party.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you must ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have been trying to illustrate that it is broader than that.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you have answered that.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman. Can I now ask Mr Bizos to repeat his question so that I can try again.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Bizos.

MR BIZOS: Does the previous paragraph and those two sentences correctly represent the Conservative Party policy towards violence at the time that you killed Chris Hani?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: The official policy, yes, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Right. Are you saying that at that time there was an official Conservative Party policy in relation to violence and an unofficial policy of the Conservative Party in relation to violence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: What I am saying or trying to say, Mr Chairman, is that while the official policy of the Conservative Party was against violence, and I also qualified it earlier by saying that no political leader would put anything like that on paper, I am also saying that the interpretation, the perception was that the Conservative Party was already involved in violence, with the mobilisation plans and the statement by Dr Treurnicht.

MR BIZOS: But Dr Hartzenberg said precisely the opposite, that violence is outside the Conservative Party. Was he telling the truth or not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: He was telling the truth as confirmed by Dr Treurnicht, when Dr Treurnicht was talking to the mobilisation process which was outside the CP.

MR BIZOS: Please confine yourself to the statements of Dr Hartzenberg. When he said that violence was outside the Conservative Party, was he telling the truth or not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: He was telling the truth, yes, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Thank you.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have already said that.

MR BIZOS: Yes. Now you say that there was an unofficial policy of the Conservative Party. What was - what was the unofficial policy of the Conservative Party in relation to violence? It must be violence.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I did not say there was an unofficial policy within the Conservative Party, I said it was outside, it was bigger than the Conservative Party.

MR BIZOS: We are not concerned whether there was violence in the ANC or the Communist Party or the National Party or the security forces, we are concerned with a policy of the Conservative Party which you say in your application, moved you to commit murder. I am asking you, was there an unofficial or an unexpressed policy of violence in the Conservative Party, a policy which the leaders did not speak about, that you didn't speak about and that you actually misled the people of South Africa when you say that there was a policy of non-violence in the Conservative Party?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: No. Now you say that no leader - that no leader will openly say that his party is for violence. Is that what you said?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I said no leader of a political party, yes, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: No leader of a political party would say it.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct.

MR BIZOS: So that there was no leader of any political party or any political organisation purporting to represent the Afrikaner volk that was publicly advocating violence at that time?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No political party, is what I said, Mr Chairman, and I repeat it.

MR BIZOS: Was there any political, known political organisation which was advocating violence at that time?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: As far as I know, there was, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Who?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: There was an organisation by the name of the Boere Weerstandsbeweging who were advertising war.

MR BIZOS: Boere Weerstandsbeweging?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Did you have anything to do with that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I had to do with them, yes, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Did you do it on their behalf, perhaps? (Laughter).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I did not, Mr Chairman.

(Applause).

CHAIRPERSON: Try and avoid interrupting these proceedings, please!

MR BIZOS: Right. So we can leave them out. The reason why I am asking you these questions, Mr Derby-Lewis, is because I want to refer to a document in your own handwriting E11. You have got it in front of you.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

MR BIZOS: This is a document which you tried to smuggle out to Miss Chris Steyn. Is that right?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Who was she?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: She was a journalist with The Citizen.

MR BIZOS: A friend of your wife's?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, just somebody I had met during the course of my political duties.

MR BIZOS: To whom was she married?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: She was Miss Chris Steyn, it is clear on this letter.

MR BIZOS: Was she married or have any association with a person in the security police at the time?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Not to the best of my knowledge, Mr Chairman, no.

MR BIZOS: Whatever she may have been, at the time that you wrote this on the 30th of the 4th 1993, did you intend pleading not guilty to the charges that you were going to face?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I was clearly stating that I was taking responsibility for the attack. That was my only intention.

MR BIZOS: What was the question? Did you intend pleading guilty ... (intervention).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: The question was if I intended pleading guilty.

MR BIZOS: Did you intend pleading guilty to the charges on which you were arrested?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I said when I sent this out I only had one intention, and that was to claim responsibility.

MR BIZOS: Did you intend pleading guilty in court?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I have answered this to the best of my ability. At that stage I wasn't even in court, the whole thing was still being investigated.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: There wasn't even finality as to whether I was going to be brought before the Court. I was still held under Section 29.

MR BIZOS: Mr Derby-Lewis, this is an admission of liability, is it not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct.

MR BIZOS: Freely and voluntarily made.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

MR BIZOS: Nobody forced you to write to Miss Steyn that you were - that you were guilty.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That I accepted responsibility, yes.

MR BIZOS: Now why did you think that she would keep this highly prejudicial statement on your part a secret from the police?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, the media have certain codes of ethics, and I was kind of relying on that.

MR BIZOS: Well ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: But I didn't send this to her directly, I didn't give it to her directly. In fact, I can't, I mentioned earlier in my testimony that I couldn't remember how I got it out of my Section 29 detention.

MR BIZOS: Let me just get clarity on your understanding of journalistic ethics. Did you expect Miss Steyn, as a journalist and the editor of The Citizen, that if they got a written confession, such as this appears to be, that you had killed Mr Chris Hani, to keep quiet about it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, there was no signature on this document to indicate that it came from me, only my handwriting.

MR BIZOS: Well, how would she have known that it came from you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I was hoping that with her journalistic knowledge that she would be able to put two and two together and accept it came from me.

MR BIZOS: But why did you trust Miss Steyn to keep this secret of yours when you realised that she could put two and two together and you must have had some respect for the police handwriting expert, why did you take this chance? Unless you trusted her that she would keep your secret.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I identified her as one of the few journalists who exist, whose ethics and integrity are more important than anything else.

MR BIZOS: Keeping quiet about murder is good journalistic ethics?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, we have even - we have even witnessed people shooting scenes of people being murdered without intervening. What is the difference?

MR BIZOS: Just answer my question, please. Did you consider receiving a document admitting to murder good journalistic ethics to keep quiet about it and not hand it over to the police?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I believed that she would not disclose this, because she was a person of integrity.

MR BIZOS: But ... (intervention).

JUDGE NGOEPE: Sorry. The question is: did you consider thAT - would you consider that as good journalistic ethics to keep quiet about a document admitting to murder?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Not necessarily, no, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Why did you send that to her?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Because I wanted responsibility for the act, actually I wanted to more motivate why the attack was carried out.

MR BIZOS: We will come to that. What did you hope she would do with it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I hoped that she would do a story on it, and say that she has received a statement with the following information.

MR BIZOS: Did you not expect that the police would pounce on her and say give us the document that you got?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I didn't, no, Mr Chairman. I don't know to what extent the Press is protected in terms of confidentiality.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Derby-Lewis, correct me. Do I gather the impression that what you are really trying to do by sending this statement was to make a political statement?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You were declaring a political statement in which you were claiming responsibility for what had happened.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the purpose of it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MS KHAMPEPE: May I interpose, Mr Bizos? Mr Derby-Lewis, how would Miss Steyn have been able to put two and two together that you were the author of that document?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well, Mr Chairman, I was in detention as she knew and once she read the contents of this, it would have been patently obvious.

CHAIRPERSON: Or it might become clear to her, depending upon who handed it to her.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: As well, Mr Chairman, although as I mentioned, it couldn't remember who I tried to get it through to her.

MR BIZOS: Are you telling the Committee the truth that you smuggled out a highly incriminating document whilst you were alone in a cell and you can't remember who you gave it to? Whom are you protecting?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I am honestly telling this Committee and I have no reason to protect anybody, because as far as I know that's not an offence under the amnesty legislation. I really honestly do not remember. It was four and a half years ago, and I wasn't only detained in a cell, Mr Chairman, I was moved all around the building. I was moved from the Uniform branch section of the building to the Murder and Robbery squad section of the building. I was moved into a separate building where the security police were located and I don't know. Somebody may, I may have contacted someone, but I really don't know who it was. Otherwise I would have stated it, Mr Chairman. I have no reason to withhold that information.

MR BIZOS: Now if your answer to the Chairman of the Committee, Judge Mall, is correct, can you please explain why you didn't seek the opportunity when you were asked to plead, to make the political statement that you did it for the reasons that you set out in E11?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Because I was advised by my legal representative to plead not guilty.

MR BIZOS: But surely, if you killed for the purposes of starting a counter-revolution, Mr Derby-Lewis, as you have told us, you are not so weakly minded that you would listen to a legal representative who would deny you the moment of glory in open court, with the world Press to listen to you, that I did this for my God, for my people, for my country, as you say at the end of E11. Why didn't you take that opportunity if you were prepared to take the opportunity of smuggling the document out?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Because I didn't see any glory of what I have done, Mr Chairman and I didn't seek any glory for what I have done.

MR BIZOS: You see if any political objective was being sought to be achieved by trying to smuggle this document out, Mr Derby-Lewis, was because you must have known that your anonymity would have been protected by this person that you sent it to, and that it was really for propaganda purposes that you put it out.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Is that a question, Mr Chairman?

MR BIZOS: Everything I ask is a question. (Laughter). (Applause).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, the reason why I tried to get it out, was to convey the message as to why the deed had been perpetrated as a part of achieving the objective which I planned to achieve with the deed.

MR BIZOS: Yes. Now I want to deal with the objective that you set out immediately before you wrote "For God, my people, my country". It is headed "The Objectives of the Attack" and if we can down to paragraph 5.

"The objectives of the attack: in the hope that the attack would activate Afrikaner leaders into united action, to save their fatherland and their people."

Did you write that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I wrote that, Mr Chairman, yes.

MR BIZOS: Implicit in this objective is your knowledge that the leaders of the Afrikaners needed to be shown the way as to how they were to save their people. Is it not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It was the suggestion, Mr Chairman, yes.

MR BIZOS: So that you committed murder in order that the Afrikaner leaders may wake up in order to save their people?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: You therefore knew that the Afrikaner leaders, including your own Dr Treurnicht, Dr Hartzenberg and all the other Afrikaner leaders, were asleep and were not prepared to use assassination for the purposes of saving their people?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is not correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Well, if they woke up, what did you expect them to do as a result of you murdering Chris Hani?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It wasn't to do with waking up, Mr Chairman, it was to bring the seriousness of the situation home as hard as possible and Mr Chairman, the sequence of events which occurred after the assassination, confirmed that my assessment of the situation was right.

MR BIZOS: We will come to that, but please answer the question fully. What did you expect them to do as a result of the example taken by you, by murdering Chris Hani?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I expected them ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: The direction, what did you expect the leaders, not the rank and file or others.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, yes. I expected the leaders to forget about the divisions of the past, which were so prevalent in Afrikaner circles, and to come together as a result of the seriousness of the situation, to see what their future action would be, and that happened.

MR BIZOS: Now let us deal with the Afrikaner leaders. I think that you missed the point made by the Chairman, with respect. What did you expect the leaders to do, and you told us that you would have hoped that they would unite and see how - what did you expect the leaders to do as a result of your giving them an example by murdering Chris Hani?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I expected them, Mr Chairman to mobilise the people and to step into the vacuum which was created by this chaos.

MR BIZOS: Let me see. First of all, can you please tell us on what page of your amnesty application we can find the, you disclosing that this as formulated in paragraph 5, was one of the objectives? Is it in you - is it in your application?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, it is not in my application, but it became very clear to me after the comments by a member of the Committee regarding the admissibility or the usability of Section 29 evidence, that I was in a situation where I had to declare whatever I could and I had to bring everything - everything possible to the attention of this Committee. And I must apologise, Mr Chairman. I can understand that I may have even done it too extensively, but this matter to me, Mr Chairman, is of so serious a nature, and I am so really ignorant and was ignorant up to the time that Judge Ngoepe brought that to my attention, that I realised then that if - I must now come up - give every detail regarding the whole thing. I was not under that impression for the - in terms of the application that it had to be on that application, because I knew I was going to be given a hearing, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Well, Mr Derby-Lewis, the heading of your document "The objectives of the attack", are a summary in effect of the direct question on the form, are they not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: If I can just get the ...

MR BIZOS: Yes, have a look at page 23.

(Laughter) - of Bundle A - page 23, Bundle A, question 10(a). Will you read out the heading, please?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Which heading, Mr Chairman?

MR BIZOS: Page 23, let me - let's get on.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, I have got it.

MR BIZOS: I will read it. 10(a)

"State political objectives sought to be achieved: go back to E11.

The objective of the attack: ..."

So you applied your mind at the time that you wrote Exhibit E11, what the objective is, is that correct? That you were called upon to - not called upon, you decided to say what the objective is, is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well, Mr Chairman, I believe that in putting the last sentence in

"Thus my obtaining an illegal weapon and passing it on to Mr Walus, was a deed committed within the counter-revolutionary and resistance climate at the time. We all wanted to stop the coming into power of an ANC/SACP government"

MR BIZOS: Please, Mr ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: "...and that would help us."

MR BIZOS: Please, Mr Derby-Lewis. The question is that the form asked you to state the political objective.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

MR BIZOS: You state the political objective under the heading of the objective of the attack on the 30th of the 4th 1993, paragraph 5, you state the political objective.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

MR BIZOS: That political objective does not appear in your application although in answer to it, you give us a long story from page 23, right up to page 26. Why was that political objective not disclosed to the Amnesty Committee when you filled in your form?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Because I, that document ... (intervention).

JUDGE NGOEPE: Sorry to interrupt. Mr Bizos, is this really a fair question? The - what appears in E11, paragraph 5, is a method of achieving a political objective, and can't it be said that by framing in broad terms, the political objective in the application form, that already encompasses almost everything, and I mean, in an application form an applicant can hardly be expected to set out every method he will employ to achieve the political objective. (Applause).

MR BIZOS: Thanks, Judge, but this is not a person who just fills in a form. He wrote from page 23 to page 26 the reasons why he did it.

JUDGE NGOEPE: I appreciate that, but I have difficulties in understanding E11, paragraph 5 as a totally new and independent objective, so new and objective that it can be said that it is not encompassed under the general objective, political objective.

MR BIZOS: Yes, but ...

JUDGE NGOEPE: To me, just one of the methods.

MR BIZOS: Of achieving the political objective, but the question is

"State political objectives sought to be achieved."

The political objective to be achieved, one of the political objectives is to induce the leaders of Afrikanerdom to do something to save their people.

JUDGE NGOEPE: No, he does not have more than one political objective. He had only one political objective, and that is in his own way, to achieve politically what he wanted to achieve for the Afrikaners. That's just one political objective. How he goes about achieving that, that is a matter of detail and method and perhaps strategy, but the political objective I would have thought, is always one.

MR BIZOS: Mr Chairman, with respect, if one has a look what he says on page 23, on page 24, particularly 10(b)

"Your justification for regarding such acts, omissions and/or offences, associated with a political objective ..."

which is the other heading, which he has to answer. And "Were they acts or ommissions or offences committed in the execution ..."

etc. And on page 26 that he did it on behalf of the Conservative Party. An objective is; what do you want to achieve? And he says in E5 that that was one of the objectives, and if you have a look, although it is a matter of interpretation, and I will agree that it is capable of that interpretation, but if we have a look at the heading of E5 - E11, he says the objectives of the attack; what I wanted to achieve by this attack, and one of the enquiries that this Committee has to make, what was it that the person was hoping to achieve. It is in that sense that objective is ... (intervention).

JUDGE NGOEPE: I see that, I don't want to let us get entangled into things, but all I can say to you is that the heading that you are referring to on E11 is simply the objectives of the attack. It doesn't say the political objectives of the attack. Whereas in the application form we talk of political objectives.

MR BIZOS: I concede the point, Mr ... Did you consider the murder a political act or not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman?

MR BIZOS: Did you consider the murder you committed a political act or not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, a total political act.

MR BIZOS: Thank you.

Did you consider that that political act would gain one or other of your objectives?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I considered that would have gained the whole idea, the whole motive behind this thing, in every respect.

MR BIZOS: One of your objectives to wake up the Afrikaner leaders?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: But there are other objectives as well.

MR BIZOS: Let's deal with this one.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Right.

MR BIZOS: We will deal with the others.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Right, right, ja, okay, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Now I want to ask you this - I am sorry I didn't realise that we had gone past the - the interruption with the video thing has put my feeling of time out of place.

CHAIRPERSON: Has taken up time. Yes. We will take the usual adjournment and resume within an hour. What is the time now? Quarter past one. We will resume at quarter past two.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CLIVE DERBY-LEWIS: (Still under affirmation).

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS: (cont)

Mr Derby-Lewis, when you heard of Mr Chris Hani's death, you told us that you went and had some coffee and you and your wife went shopping. Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: We had finished, we had actually finished tea, Mr Chairman, and we then went shopping, yes.

MR BIZOS: You went shopping. Now did you phone any of the rightwing leaders that you referred to in paragraph 5 of E11 on Saturday or on Sunday?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Or on Monday?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: But now if you spoke the truth when you wrote paragraph 5, one would have expected you to get to the phone immediately or use couriers or use whatever means could you communicate with the leaders of the right, to say fellow Afrikaners, leaders of the Afrikaner people, this is the moment, anti-Christ is dead, let's do what we have to do. Did you phone anybody to tell them that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Not at that stage. Not at that stage, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Well, you couldn't have done it from prison presumably, so we can assume that the purpose for which you did it in order to bring about unity among the Afrikaner leaders, to start a counter-revolution, you allowed the opportunity to slip by.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's not correct, Mr Chairman. In fact, I waited to see whether it would have had the desired effect, before committing myself to going to the caucus and then explaining to them what I had done, my motivation and asking them to join me in the action.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, can I just clarify, please. Mr Bizos asked you about that day or the next day or Monday or Tuesday, did you in fact make contact with anyone before you were arrested on the Saturday?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman. Sorry, maybe I should qualify that. I was contacted by the chief spokesman, regarding the issuing of a statement and so on.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: But I didn't initiate any contact, no.

MR BIZOS: The purpose of committing murder was for chaos to result, so that the White leaders of Afrikanerdom could seize the opportunity to have a counter-revolution. Why did you allow that opportunity to slip by?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: As I have stated Mr Chairman, I had been caught unawares because in my terms the assassination was not to occur on the Easter weekend. And although, Walus - Kuba had an 'nth degree of independence, when we discussed it I suggested to him that it do not happen then.

JUDGE WILSON: But I can understand that on the Saturday or the Sunday, but surely by the Monday you could have been making contact?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I was still trying - let me explain, Mr Chairman, I was really in a state of shock, as a result of the occurrence, because as I explained, it was not something which one does lightly. And as a result of that, I was totally demobilised at that stage - I was totally demotivated. I was in the situation where I sort of was standing back and waiting for something to happen and I didn't know what.

MR BIZOS: You knew, did you not, from newspaper reports on the Sunday and on Monday, that what you partly helped to happen, for people to go berserk, was in fact happening. Did you not know that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: And did you not know that the leadership of Mr Nelson Mandela, Mr Tokyo Sexwale, Mr Mbeki and others for calm and not to allow themselves to be provoked by a senseless act of murder to derail the negotiation process was being made. Did you realise that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: All the more reason for you to say to your fellow Afrikaner leaders, with whom you claimed such a special relationship, this is the time, awake, let us take over!

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, there was no haste in that regard.

MR BIZOS: There was no?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: There was no haste in that regard. Haste.

MR BIZOS: There was no haste?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's right, because there was nothing to connect me to the assassination.

MR BIZOS: Mr Derby-Lewis, have you lost touch with reality, Sir? The question is directed to that you wanted to achieve an objective to bring chaos to the country, to unite the White leaders, so that they can - your counter-revolution could succeed and you sit there Saturday, Sunday, Monday and you do nothing. Isn't that inconsistent with your claimed objective, that you wanted chaos to take place and for your likes to move into the gap in order to take the country over?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: You did nothing?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I did nothing, Mr Chairman. I waiting for, as I said, for an opportune moment.

JUDGE WILSON: You said there was nothing to tie you to the killing. I find that a little difficult to understand. You had planned the killing with Mr Walus, who had been arrested a matter of a few minutes after the killing. You had supplied him with the list of addresses so he could find the place. You had supplied him with the gun that he had used.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Wasn't there an awful lot to tie you to the killing, Mr Derby-Lewis?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, no, there was no evidence of that. Although I had done that.

JUDGE WILSON: And that Mr Walus told the police yes, Mr Derby-Lewis told me to, he gave me the gun.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I was convinced that Mr Walus would in fact not to do that, and that I will have ample opportunity to plan the next step.

JUDGE WILSON: But you did nothing for a week to plan the next step.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, that's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Did you tell Mr Walus that you hoped chaos would result as a result of your and his murder of Chris Hani and that the objective was to take advantage of the chaos in order to take over the government? Did you tell him that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I did, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Did you tell him that you thought that the murder would awaken the leadership of Afrikanerdom?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, I did, Mr Chairman. In fact, that was during our discussions the whole objective, he was fully aware of that.

MR BIZOS: I want to ask you a question, Mr Derby-Lewis. How is it that you and Mr Walus took it upon yourselves to be the saviours of Afrikanerdom if their leaders of the various political parties of Afrikaners, were not prepared to do anything about it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I believed that the other leaders were reading the situation incorrectly. That they were allowing themselves to be misled by Mr De Klerk and his regime, when it was patently obvious to me that De Klerk was busy with the betrayal of the Afrikaner people. It was clear to me at all times, long before many other people became aware of this.

MR BIZOS: You saw yourself as a prophet of sorts?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I did not, I did not, Mr Chairman. I just saw myself as being someone able to assess the situation, all things taken into consideration.

MR BIZOS: Now this business of waking up the Afrikaner leaders in order that there should be chaos and to fill the gap created by the chaos, Mr FW de Klerk was the President of the country, was he not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: The commander in chief of the Army.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: In charge of the police?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: And you have throughout your evidence told us how much contempt, if not hatred, you had for Mr FW de Klerk?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: For his behaviour, yes, Mr Chairman, not for him as a person.

MR BIZOS: If you wanted a power vacuum to come about, for you and like-minded Afrikaners that you purport to speak on behalf of, the natural target would have been Mr FW de Klerk and not Hani.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman ...

MR BIZOS: Power was in De Klerk's hands at the time.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, nobody would have gone to the trouble of causing chaos to avenge Mr FW de Klerk's death. Who in his wildest dreams could ever picture that? I certainly couldn't.

MR BIZOS: Well, he was in power, he controlled the Army, he controlled the Police, he controlled the structures of State and you were looking for a gap to take power, wasn't he the natural victim?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, because we knew with the very make-up of the man, that he wouldn't be able to handle a chaotic situation in the country. And ... (intervention).

MR BIZOS: No, you don't understand my question.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Maybe I don't, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: If you wanted to create a power vacuum, you should have gone for the man that was in power. And he wasn't even on your list.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman - Mr Chairman, it was patently obvious to me and to many informed people, that the real power was being transferred over to this power-sharing experiment which De Klerk had dreamed up. He was no longer in power.

MR BIZOS: Well, let's take it from another aspect, Mr Derby-Lewis. Do you agree that you intended to kill Mr Mandela?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: You say so in your statement, don't you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't say so in my statement, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: When the list was drawn, wasn't he number one?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I didn't draw that list, and I have stated categorically that I have never drawn that list.

MR BIZOS: Who drew the list?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Arthur Kemp, as was testified in the trial, and he drew it out of a much larger list, Mr Chairman, and I had nothing to do with the selection of the names. It was in fact, a coincidence that Hani's address was on that list.

JUDGE WILSON: Who numbered the list?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Walus, as I mentioned in my earlier testimony, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Who was number one on the basis of his numbering? I'm sorry, if you finished, Judge.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well, Mr Chairman, if you have a look at the list it states clearly that page 1 is A1, page 2 ... (intervention).

MR BIZOS: Who was number one to be eliminated?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, the name of Mr Nelson Mandela appeared on the page marked A1.

MR BIZOS: On the list Mr Mandela was number one for elimination, correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I repeat, Mr Chairman, Mr Mandela's name was on that list and the list is clearly marked A1.

MR BIZOS: Right. Why was his name on that list?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I think you must ask somebody else, I didn't draw up that list, Mr Chairman. (Laughter).

Mr Chairman, with respect, how many times do I have to repeat the fact that I did not draw up that list of addresses? And it was obvious from the testimony in the trial it was not done.

MR BIZOS: How did Mr Hani come to be number three? If number one was not Mr Mandela and number two Mr Slovo?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I explained that we numbered these people in terms of priority and in terms of their enmity, their degree of enmity to this Conservative Party and the cause of the Afrikaner. Mr Chairman, let me also go further then say that I also testified earlier that if I had anything to do with drawing up that list, and it was going to be a hit list and not an address list, I can assure you there would have been other names on this list other than the majority of names which were included in that list. I did not compose this list.

MR BIZOS: Mr Walus says in his statement

"Weapon and the list was handed over by Clive Derby-Lewis."

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: You knew that Mr Mandela's name was on it when you handed over the list?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: The next sentence is

"Reconnaissance was also done on Mandela's house."

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I knew nothing about that, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: "I thought that the old goat was not worth it."

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's certainly not my statement, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Did Mr Walus have any reason to lie to the police immediately after his arrest?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, with respect, I can't speak for Mr Walus.

MR BIZOS: "All writing on the list was done by myself on the list. Clive only said to work sensibly."

Did you tell him that he must work sensibly?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: He had the full responsibility, Mr Chairman, for ...

MR BIZOS: Full responsibility for what?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: For the attack and I could probably have said to him act sensibly. I assumed he was going to act sensibly anyway.

MR BIZOS: But now ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, can Mr Bizos just tell me to which document he is actually referring in which bundle?

MR BIZOS: Yes. R4, page 88.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: R4, page 88. Okay. Yes, I have it, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: You see that I have read it correctly?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, I see that, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: You can't furnish an explanation as to why he should have made any wrong statements in relation to you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I can't, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Now will you please have a look at the list that has Mr Mandela's house's picture on?

JUDGE WILSON: Which one are you referring to, Mr Bizos?

MR BIZOS: (Indistinct - speaker's mike not on)

"... Clive Derby-Lewis. Reconnaissance was also done on Mandela's house".

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, about the list, yes.

MR BIZOS: Yes, where were ...

JUDGE WILSON: (Indistinct).

MR BIZOS: No, Mr Chairman, what I ...

JUDGE WILSON: You referred the witness to the list, to the picture of Mandela's house on it.

MR BIZOS: After I asked the question, the witness asked what document was I reading from ...

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

MR BIZOS: ... previously and I understood him to want that reference.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, you told us that.

MR BIZOS: That's why ...

JUDGE WILSON: I am now asking you for the reference to the list.

MR BIZOS: Yes. It is Bundle A, page 30. Now is this the list that you and Kuba had?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Please have a look at page 65 of R4 and page 30 of Bundle A. Will you please look at the last paragraph on page 65?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

MR BIZOS: This is the typed version of your statement.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: "Kuba and I subsequently discussed the list and listed the names in order of importance."

Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I just want to check when the statement was made, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Mr Chairman, I have no objection to the instructing attorney of Mr Derby-Lewis showing him documents, but I would appeal that he does not talk to him when a question is being asked.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, he is indicating documents to me.

MR BIZOS: I have no objection to that.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And where you are referring to on the documents.

MR BIZOS: I have no objection. The last paragraph, page 65.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

MR BIZOS: "Kuba and I subsequently then discussed the list and listed the names in order of importance."

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Right, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Is that a correct statement or a false statement?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman, I said this and also in terms of priority.

MR BIZOS: Importance for what?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: As regards their enmity towards us, towards the Conservative Party and its cause.

MR BIZOS: Oh, was this an anti-popularity list or a murder list?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, it was not a murder list, it was an address list drawn up by somebody else.

MR BIZOS: So the person which, the person who was the most against you and the most unpopular amongst you, was Mr Mandela, because he is A1.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: He was the most important, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

MR BIZOS: "Now during the discussions which Kuba and I held alone, Kuba was not aware that other names were listed to cause confusion. He did not know nor ask why they were there."

Now if it was merely a list in order to show enmity, why were other names put there in order to cause confusion?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, as I mentioned in my explanation for paragraphs 44, 45 and 46, that was also portion of where I was talking to protect my wife.

MR BIZOS: Yes?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That statement was also aimed at that.

MR BIZOS: Please just give me a direct simple answer.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's the answer.

MR BIZOS: What was the ... (intervention).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... Mr Chairman, I can't ...

MR BIZOS: What was the purpose of confusing people about names on the list if it was not a murder list? You would not be concerned about listing people whom you did not like? There was no need to confuse anybody about the order in which you didn't like people.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, as I have already stated, that sentence was there to mislead the security branch personnel and it was part of my effort to protect my wife. It had nothing to do with the actual situation.

MR BIZOS: It begs the question, Mr Derby-Lewis, what did your wife need protection from?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have already testified to that, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: What did your wife need protection from?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: From the actions of ruthless people in the security branch who ... (intervention).

MR BIZOS: What ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Who were determined to use her to get me to make a full confession, even if it meant persecuting her.

MR BIZOS: Now please, try and come to terms with the question, Mr Derby-Lewis. If the list was not a murder list, what did your wife need protection from?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: She needed protection, Mr Chairman, in spite of the fact that it wasn't a murder list and in spite of the fact that I didn't draw it up, she needed protection from the fact that she was the person who asked Mr Kemp to get these addresses.

MR BIZOS: Mr Derby-Lewis, you are an experienced politician. Please answer the question.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman ...

MR BIZOS: During the discussions - just listen for a moment, please.

"During the discussions which Kuba and I held alone, Kuba was not aware that other names were listed to cause confusion."

You have already told us that that is correct.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I did not, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Oh, you didn't?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I said that that was part of the protection of my wife, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: I see.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And I think Mr Bizos is an experienced, sufficiently experienced advocate to understand what I am saying.

MR BIZOS: Yes, I accept your criticism. (Applause). I accept your criticism.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I can't hear you.

MR BIZOS: Why did you say that

"During the discussions which Kuba and I held alone, Kuba was not aware that other names were listed to cause confusion."

MR DERBY-LEWIS: To mislead ...

MR BIZOS: "He did not know or ask why they were there."

Why did you say that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: To mislead the security police who were interrogating me.

MR BIZOS: How were you misleading them and how were you protecting your wife by saying that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I was misleading them into believing that there were other reasons behind the preparation of the list, and that's why those names were on there and it was clearly those names were not part of a hit list because there was never an intention to murder the nine people who were on that list. There was never that intention, Mr Chairman, and no evidence even was produced in the trial to that effect.

MR BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: In fact, as I explained in my testimony earlier the police, when they discovered this address list in Kuba's flat, released - they leaked the information to the media, and they dubbed it a hit list.

MR BIZOS: Mr Derby ... (intervention).

JUDGE NGOEPE: Sorry, Mr Derby-Lewis, what is the confusion that - what is the confusion that was supposed to be caused?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, there wasn't confusion that was supposed to be caused. The statement during the discussions which Kuba and I held alone, Kuba was not aware that other names were listed to cause confusion. I mentioned that to confuse the security branch in an attempt to protect my wife.

JUDGE NGOEPE: In which way do you confuse, that's what I want to know, what is the confusion that you are talking about?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It was just something that I latched onto, Mr Chairman, for inclusion in this, to give it a feasible explanation for not - for the names that were on the list, that were not political targets, in other words. You know, there were a lot of names on this list who were not political targets in - beyond anyone's wildest imagination. They could never have been classified as political targets.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Derby-Lewis, if you had wanted to protect your wife, why did you mention Mr Kemp so frequently? That was a direct contact to your wife, wasn't it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, but I knew that my wife had a legitimate reason for getting the list.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, but once you mentioned Kemp, the police go to Kemp and Kemp says but I gave the list to Mrs Derby-Lewis.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, but Mr Chairman, they were aware of Kemp's involvement in any case, because it was recorded in my wife's diary which the security branch showed to me during the interrogation.

JUDGE WILSON: So they were aware when they were interrogating you, that the list had come from your wife, they had seen that in her diary.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Correct.

JUDGE WILSON: But you told a story about how you put the names on computer?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That was part of the - that was part of the sparring, Mr Chairman, as I said, to protect her.

JUDGE WILSON: You have just told us that they knew that she gave you the list. How were you protecting her, from what?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, at the time that I was interrogated they didn't know that.

JUDGE WILSON: I thought you have just told me that they showed you her diary which showed that the list, she had got the list from Kemp?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No.

JUDGE WILSON: And that is why you mentioned Kemp's name?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, they didn't indicate that, they just showed me the diary and one of the items in the diary was "A Kemp - list."

JUDGE WILSON: So you knew they had a diary from your wife saying "A Kemp - list."

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And you still thought you were going to protect her?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well, Mr Chairman, I had to try.

JUDGE WILSON: Why not tell the truth? Once you start making it look like this they would be very suspicious. If you simply said my wife is a reporter, I made use of a list she had of addresses.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, let me say that this statement which we are referring to, is the statement which was finalised as a result of many days of interrogation by the security branch and this was the statement which the security branch were prepared to accept, in terms of obtaining a confession from me and having it signed by a magistrate, which they were going to use against me. There was obviously sufficient in this, this statement, to convict both Kuba Walus and myself. And when I finally presented this in the form that they wanted it, because they came with information themselves during the interrogation that they wanted included, which I included, when we came to this situation, that was the last statement. And in fact, this was the only statement I was aware of in terms of the security police investigation was concerned, but I was assured that it was irrelevant and could never be used against me as evidence. But this was sufficiently satisfactory to the security branch that they were prepared to accept it, have it signed in front of a magistrate and to use it as a confession from me.

MR BIZOS: Your answer to a question by one of the learned Judges, that by saying that

"Kuba was not aware that other names was written to cause confusion, he did not know nor ask why they were there".

Once it was known that your wife had anything whatsoever to do with the list, far from protecting your wife, you were really arousing the suspicions of the security police, on an ordinary reading.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not competent to answer the question, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: But of course, we do not have to rely really on your word or let us remind you of what your wife said in paragraph 73 in R4, page 160. Do you see paragraph 73?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I do.

MR BIZOS: "In January 1993 I telephoned Arthur Kemp at The Citizen in Johannesburg and said I was going to send him a list of names and I wanted a description of their houses and their addresses."

Do you see that she says that she asked for a description of their houses and the addresses -

"This was done after much serious thought and because Clive and I felt that unless something dramatic was done the country would be controlled by Communists. Clive and I therefore highlighted the names of the people whom we believed to be the enemies of South Africa. Certain names were added to the list I sent to Arthur, such as Justice Goldstone and certain newspaper people. Goldstone's address was needed to determine where he lived, because I wanted to do an article as to how he, who helped to break down the Group Areas Act, was now living in a White area far away from the results of his 1984 Govender judgment. The journalists' addresses were requested because I wanted to write to them about their attitude towards this (indistinct). I asked for Mr Pik Botha's address because there was strong rumours that he owned property overseas and this had been reported in the Afrikaner newspaper and perhaps the company which owned his property, if indeed it was the case, would be the same company. The people on the list whom I believed to be the enemies of South Africa, were the participants in Operation Vula, who were never prosecuted by the government and members of the ANC and South African Communist Party. Some of the names were Maharaj, Hani, Mandela, Kasrils, Naidoo, Ramaphosa, Slovo. Clive and Kuba decided on Chris Hani to be eliminated because of his particularly brutal record and his position as chairman of the South African Communist Party, which they believed never should have been unbanned."

This is what your wife wrote down and signed and took an oath that it was correct.

Now I am not asking you to pass judgment on the correctness or other, or anything else about your wife's statement. But I want you to please look at Annexure, page 30, the description of Mr Mandela's house and the contents of your wife's statement. Does Mr Mandela - inclusion of Mr Mandela's name on the list, is it there because in order to confuse people or because he was one of the intended victims to be eliminated?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, you are asking me to comment on why this information was included?

MR BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I can't answer that, Mr Chairman, because I didn't draw up the list.

MR BIZOS: Well ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And I didn't put that information in there or ask for it.

MR BIZOS: Do you agree that you and Walus made Hani number three?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I agree that we numbered him three, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Therefore, there must have been a one and a two. (Laughter).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman ... (intervention).

MR BIZOS: Who was number one?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I am quite sure that I have already explained this in previous testimony, but as I said ... (intervention).

MR BIZOS: Who was number one to be eliminated, Mr Derby-Lewis, it is a simple question?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Number one on this list, Mr Chairman, on the page marked A1, which is not clear from this document which Mr Bizos has, the pages marked, according to the original document A1, was Nelson Mandela.

MR BIZOS: I am going to repeat the question and ... (intervention).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I heard the question.

MR BIZOS: ... I think that it would be in your interests to try and come to terms with the question, Mr Derby-Lewis. If Hani was the number three choice for assassination, who was number one choice for assassination?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I have already testified that Hani was not number three choice for assassination, he was number one choice for assassination, for the mere fact that we knew that he would be the target, the elimination whereof would lead to our achieving our objectives, and I said that on previous testimony.

MR BIZOS: Your wife mentioned Mr Mandela's name in paragraph 74 of her statement. Is he to be included as the names that were included in order to confuse anyone or because he was one to be eliminated?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I can't be expected to stand responsible for what my wife has allegedly said.

MR BIZOS: Well, I drew attention to this earlier on, presumably you asked here at some time or another why Mr Mandela's name was incorporated. Was it in order to confuse people?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I didn't ask her that question, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Nor in relation to Mr Slovo?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, she was doing her own journalistic job.

MR BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Why should I ask her those questions?

JUDGE WILSON: While we are looking at this list, I notice and I haven't noticed till now, that Chris Hani is the only one, that's on page 32, who has - have you got it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Page 35, I think, Mr Chairman. On the list?

JUDGE WILSON: On the list, yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have the list anyway, yes.

JUDGE WILSON: He is the only one who has got a description of the make of his motor car and apparently the registration number.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I don't know anything about that.

JUDGE WILSON: You don't know?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Sir.

MR BIZOS: Did you not say in your evidence in chief that you were aware that Walus was reconnoitring in other houses as well?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I didn't say that, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Didn't you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I didn't say that.

MR BIZOS: Well ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I wasn't aware of that.

MR BIZOS: I beg your pardon?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I wasn't aware that he was reconnoitring other houses. I never said that in my ... (intervention).

MR BIZOS: I'm sorry, I can't hear you.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't recall saying in my main evidence that Walus was reconnoitring other houses, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Right. When this list was shown to you after the - after it was brought back by Mr Kemp, did you see the description of Mr Mandela's house in Lower Houghton?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I did.

MR BIZOS: Now it is number 4, 13th Avenue, Lower Houghton, Why is the description necessary?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I didn't fill in this description, Mr Chairman. Can I just read what the note says and perhaps that will indicate why the description was necessary?

MR BIZOS: Yes. Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Note

"The house situated in an oak-lined road is deliberately not numbered, but is easily recognisable by the wrought-iron black fence."

But I don't know, I didn't ask for that and I didn't put it in.

MR BIZOS: Yes

"Which has had black metal sheeting placed behind it to limit the view from the road."

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Correct.

MR BIZOS: "It has a hi-tech electronic surveillance systems throughout, including a television camera mounted at the gate behind a glass panel. The gates are electronically controlled."

Are you saying that all this was necessary because the house didn't have a house number on? Is that what you are telling the Committee?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am saying that I don't know the reason for this.

MR BIZOS: Right.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: But I believe that ... (intervention).

MR BIZOS: But you have suggested a reason?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That the fact that the house was deliberately not numbered, could have been the reason.

MR BIZOS: It could quite - if the purpose was an innocent one, was it necessary to give the security arrangements? Couldn't you say that it is between houses six and eight, which presumably were numbered and two houses away from 13th Avenue and Central Street on the southern side of the street. It wouldn't have been necessary to have all these security arrangements noted, unless someone wanted to get into it in a "skelm" manner.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I don't know the motivation, how many times do I have to repeat it? Mr Bizos is now asking me to speculate over various things which appear on this form, and I am not in a position to do so.

MR BIZOS: When you and your wife saw it, did you not query Kemp and say hey, Kemp, we are not going to break in there, we are not house-breakers, we are honourable politicians and honourable journalists, we are going to knock on the door?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, Kemp wasn't in the picture when I saw this list. I saw this list in Cape Town.

MR BIZOS: But when you saw it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: So how can I question Kemp in Cape Town?

MR BIZOS: When you saw it, did it not strike you that this was a strange way of identifying the house?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, when I saw this in Cape Town, I was on my way to a session of the President's Council, to an actual meeting of the President's Council. And I gave a passing glance at the top page and that was that, and we made some mundane comment about how the fat cats live in luxury or something to that effect, not anything important, and then I rushed to be at the meeting of the President's Council in time, after seeing it.

MR BIZOS: Have a look at page 31, Joe Slovo

"Unable to establish the precise address but the following should be sufficient with a bit of leg-work."

A simple statement that it is the house next to house number so-and-do on the northern side and so-and-so on the southern side, number so-and-so. That would have been sufficient, wouldn't it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't know, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Or the colour ... (intervention).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't know where the house is, I have never been there.

MR BIZOS: Or the colour of the walls?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't know, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Or the type of hedge there was.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Once again, I don't know, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: And if it was intended for gravy train purposes, it was quite negative, wasn't it?

"A medium-sized tin-roof, three bedrooms, study, small kitchen, sitting and dining rooms, with an old garden with huge trees and no access from the front. The back area faces onto the road and has heavy duty metal bars covering all open areas. There is also a double garage facing onto the road."

What was the necessity for that other than for the purposes of breaking-in or lying in wait in order to kill him?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I don't know. Mr Bizos is asking me to comment on something with which I had nothing to do.

MR BIZOS: Well, you see, when you say that your wife - you don't know why your wife said that this was for the purposes of eliminating people, I am going to suggest that the evidence is overwhelming, having regard to these descriptions, that she was speaking the truth when she said that you and she drew up a list in order to eliminate people?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, how then do you explain the fact that only those two houses have any information, other than the actual address?

MR BIZOS: Well, you knew how to deal with the top three ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Richard Goldstone ranks as well.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, with respect. Under, on the page on which Judge Goldstone - Goldstone's address appears, it says

"Pinelands Townhouse Complex, entrance in First Avenue, Hyde Park. Very near to Hyde Park Shopping Centre. Number not known, but it is one of the townhouses at the end of the complex."

But Mr Chairman, the most important house on that list was the residence of Chris Hani, and Mr Chairman, it is a fact that it was obvious for everyone to see, according to Mr Walus when we discussed it afterwards, that there were security measures in place at Mr Hani's residence, and yet, there is not a word mentioned, although it is clearly visible from the street. And I am quite sure, Mr Chairman, that the same applies to other houses on this list. So I can't be expected to explain that and I don't understand why Mr Bizos is harping on this.

MR BIZOS: Do you know who put the car numbers there and whose cars they were?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It is typed here, Mr Chairman, no, I don't know whose, what car numbers they are and it looks like a BMW with a car registration, not two cars. It looks like one car.

MR BIZOS: One. Now was this a car which was used by Mr Hani from time to time?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have no idea, Mr Chairman, how should I know.

MR BIZOS: Didn't you ask when you saw the list?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, because it wasn't on the list.

MR BIZOS: Now you see, you ... (intervention).

JUDGE WILSON: I think perhaps we could record at this stage that it does not appear to have been the car he was driving when he was killed. That car can be seen in Volume 12, and the number of it is RDG692T.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, but I know nothing about these car details in any case, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: There will be evidence that this was a car which Mr Hani used, it belonged to one of his friends. Now, Mr Derby-Lewis, may we return to 11, page E11?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, okay, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: "The objectives of the attack." Please read your own handwriting in relation to number one.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Number one, Mr Chairman

"To strike a blow for Almighty God and Christianity against the anti-Christ Communism in the form of the leader of the SA Communist Party."

MR BIZOS: Can we please look at your application to - will you show us where you said that this was for a strike, to strike a blow for Almighty God, by killing the anti-Christ?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It is not in there, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Not in there?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, as we mention with point 5 on the same document.

MR BIZOS: Now I don't want, generally speaking, I refrain from asking people about their religious beliefs, but because of your evidence and because of what you wrote, in 11.1 of Exhibit E, I must ask you this. You were born into the Catholic Church?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Does the notion of the anti-Christ play any role in the Catholic Church in modern times, since the time of the Inquisition?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, the Catholic Church also observes the holy Bible and the holy Bible is quite clear in its teachings regarding the anti-Christ.

MR BIZOS: Do you believe that cataclysmic events would overtake the world at the instance of the anti-Christ?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not qualified to answer that question, I have never had thoughts on that, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Well, you thought about the anti-Christ and you said that you struck a blow for God. I would have thought that you are the best person to ask as to what the notion of the anti-Christ is.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I think I made it quite clear in my previous testimony, that before Mr Hani was even selected as a target, I was aware of the fact that we were fighting against Communism. It was quite obvious the National Party regime also propagated the concept of fighting against Communism. And Communism, Mr Chairman, is the vehicle of the anti-Christ.

MR BIZOS: And apartheid isn't? (Laughter).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, that is another point.

(Loud laughter and cheering)

But, Mr Chairman, while Mr Bizos raises the aspect of apartheid, I am sure that he raises it ... (intervention).

MR BIZOS: No, just say yes or no and we can proceed.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, please, grant me an indulgence here. Mr Bizos has made a very, very snide remark, as though I am a defender of apartheid, and Mr Chairman, I have categorically stated on numerous occasions, I am not a defender or a propagator of apartheid. I detested apartheid because in terms of Mr De Klerk's own admission, apartheid was a policy of White supremacy and the Conservative Party's policy has never propagated White supremacy, Mr Chairman. We propagated equal - equal opportunities and equal self-determination ...(tape ends)

MR BIZOS: ... that they could not live with the statement of the DRC that apartheid is a sin.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, because at that stage the National Party Government had said that they are breaking with separate development as a policy, and that was the motivation, and you must call members of the Afrikaanse Protestantse Kerk to come and testify on that, Mr Chairman, if you want more details. Don't ask me what was behind their statement.

MR BIZOS: I don't want this to descend into a religious debate either. I merely want to test your credibility, Mr Derby-Lewis. If the church that you joined was formed - one of the reasons, that the DRC declared apartheid a sin, how did you join it, not believing in apartheid at any stage?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Because apartheid in their terms, Mr Chairman, was the policy of separate development, and I could see no sin in that policy. (Applause).

MR BIZOS: Yes, I think that you are a little confused, but I am not going to try and clarify it. You say they saw apartheid as separate development or did you see separate development as non-apartheid? Is that what you want to really say?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: I see. Well, never mind, you have said what it was.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Right, thank you.

MR BIZOS: Now you were never in favour of apartheid?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I have never been in favour of apartheid.

MR BIZOS: Did you ever renounce ... (intervention).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry, White supremacy apartheid, never.

MR BIZOS: Did you ever renounce forced removals?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, by the time I became actively involved in politics ... (intervention).

MR BIZOS: The answer is no. Is it no or is it yes?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: There were no longer forced removals when I was a public representative.

MR BIZOS: Well, very well, you never protested, you never protested against forced removals because there were none whilst you were in politics.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Quite so.

MR BIZOS: When did you start in politics?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: In 1977, Mr Chairman. (Laughter).

MR BIZOS: Are you saying to the Committee that there were no forced removals after 1970?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman ...

MR BIZOS: 1977, when did you say?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Ja, Mr Chairman, I am saying that when Mr PW Botha took leadership of the National Party, in 1978, he stopped separate development and he stated that the whole policy was a failure and it had to be abandoned. But in fact ... (intervention).

MR BIZOS: But ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Please let me finish, because this is relevant. In fact, Mr Chairman, at that stage in 1978, it was common cause that in terms of the ethnic orientation of territories in South Africa, that an average of 70 - these are the figures that are at my disposal, and I have never had them questioned in any political arena anywhere in this country or outside, that in terms of those figures, Mr Chairman, that something like a percentage of 72% of all of the peoples of the different ethnic groups, were either resident within or in the immediate surrounds of their traditional territories. That was the information to my, available to me. And Mr Chairman, that told me something. We could never ever have effected forced removals to the extent that would be required to effect such a massive move of people from one place to another. They must be moved voluntarily and I believe they moved in that area because industrial development was taking place, Mr Chairman, and if I can use Bophuthatswana as an example, that is proof of that. Bophuthatswana was the economic success story of the policy of separate development.

MR BIZOS: Well, I am not going to debate with you the heresy of indebtedness that the leader of that country left to South Africa, but never mind, Mr Derby-Lewis.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I can't do that, Sir, and I can't be responsible for that.

MR BIZOS: Let us get on, let us get on with more relevant matters. You say you never heard of a forced removal after 1977?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Not to the best of my knowledge, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: It's a collateral issued I am not going to -but let's deal with the main issue.

"After the largest Afrikaans church, the NG Kerk, Dutch Reformed Church decided to open its doors to all races and to renounce apartheid, a group of right-wingers formed their own church, the APK, under Duminy Nico van Rensburg."

Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: And according to the compilers of this report,

"The church is unashamedly racist and only Whites are allowed to be members".

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, that's the opinion of the writer of that report.

MR BIZOS: Well, let's take the opinion away from the fact. Has it got any Black members?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, it does not, Mr Chairman. (Laughter). (Applause).

MR BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, to the best of my knowledge it doesn't have English-speaking Whites there either.

MR BIZOS: I don't know that that makes it any better. (Laughter/booing).

If it doesn't take Englishmen, what are you doing there?

(Laughter/Applause).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos - Mr Bizos, Mr Bizos, please, I would just like once again to appeal to the people, they are in fact disturbing these proceedings, by making the noise they are making. Please try and restrain yourself. I said a few days ago we are not in a theatre, this is a serious matter. So please allow these proceedings to carry on in a dignified way.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, may I enquire from Mr Bizos what is the relevance of this question?

MR BIZOS: I can just say, Mr Chairman, he claims to have done it for God and Christianity, Mr Chairman. I am entitled to test the sincerity of his feelings, once he claims to be a Christian. And I want to ask him, I will want to go on to ask him if there is a Christianity for Blacks and a Christianity for Whites, and such other questions in order to show that his written and verbal statements are a lot of humbug, Mr Chairman. That is the relevance of it.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, permit me to answer Mr Bizos' questions.

MR BIZOS: No, I will ask the questions, I was addressing the Court. Wait for the questions, please.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman ...

JUDGE WILSON: You did ask him a question Mr Bizos and you complained that he hadn't answered it yet.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: May I answer the question, Mr Chairman?

MR BIZOS: Please.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I wish to remind the Committee that the question Mr Bizos addressed to me, which he wouldn't allow me to answer, was what was I as an Englishman doing as a member of the Afrikaanse Protestantse Kerk. I want to answer that question. For Mr Bizos to call me an Englishman, Mr Chairman, is actually an insult, because I am - Mr Chairman, I am of both Scots and German descent, and if anyone, and I think possibly one of the members of the Committee will understand our problem with being called Englishman, Mr Chairman. Because if there are two nations in the world who are more at loggerheads with the English than the Germans and the Scots, I would like to know. And the fact that I use English here, as I explained to you, Mr Chairman, I was prepared to use both English and Afrikaans. I am speaking mainly English to assist the Committee, because I appreciate the language problem, but if Mr Bizos carries on in this trend, Mr Chairman, I will be forced to assert my Afrikaner identity and speak Afrikaans. And I don't want to do that. (Applause).

CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed.

MR BIZOS: Now Mr Derby-Lewis this church that you belong to, did you go to it the day after the murder?

MR PRINSLOO OBJECTS: Mr Chairman, what is the relevance of that question?

CHAIRPERSON: He can just answer yes or no.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am quite happy to answer that, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: I beg your pardon?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am quite happy to answer that. I did not go to church on that particular Sunday.

MR BIZOS: You didn't go to church?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No.

MR BIZOS: Wasn't it a wonderful opportunity to go and give praise to the Lord for the death of the anti-Christ?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I don't have to go to church to practise my religion. I practise my religion every minute of the day. (Laughter).

MR BIZOS: Including when you conspired to kill Mr Hani?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: So that can we then say that the first reason that you give why Mr Hani was killed by you, was because you wanted to kill the anti-Christ and save South Africa?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: The first paragraph reads as follows, Mr Chairman

"To strike a blow for Almighty God and Christianity against the anti-Christ Communism in the form of the leader of the SA Communist Party."

Nothing about South Africa.

MR BIZOS: Well, so that it was an entirely religious and not a political motive?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, with respect, I think I have answered that trend of question so completely. If I must re-read this question of the objectives and then re-read the chapter in my form which is relevant, is that necessary, Mr Chairman?

MR BIZOS: I didn't ask you about that, I merely asked you this; that you say, when I added that in order to save South Africa, you denied it. And you said you didn't say anything about saving South Africa. You only did it for God and Christianity.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, when I said that, Mr Chairman, I wanted to make sure that the record was correct.

MR BIZOS: Yes, good.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Right.

MR BIZOS: And then once the record is correct, and this quote and we deduct what I said, and what I added, this is a very deeply felt religious conviction, is it not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: This first paragraph?

MR BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: And as you put it in as the first attitude of the first objective, it must have been the predominant motive?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: As a practising Christian, Mr Chairman, my priority is to Almighty God before all else.

MR BIZOS: Your first, your first duty is to God and Christ and that's why you took part in the murder?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: My duty is to Almighty God.

MR BIZOS: To Almighty God?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Correct.

MR BIZOS: To Christ?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: To Christ and to Almighty God.

MR BIZOS: Particularly to kill the anti-Christ.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Do I have to read this again, Mr Chairman to answer that question.

CHAIRPERSON: You have asked that question already, Mr Bizos.

MR BIZOS: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman. Now ... (intervention).

JUDGE NGOEPE: Sorry, before you leave that paragraph one. It is not clear to me, I don't know as yet how relevant the whole question of Christianity is going to be. It may appear later to be much more relevant than one thinks, I don't know. But, are you saying that what you have done, the killing of Hani, would have been something that your church would have gone along with?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I believe so, Mr Chairman, yes.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Your church, you are of the view that your church approved of that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am of that view, yes, Mr Chairman, having discussed it with the late Dr Treurnicht on a theological basis and receiving his assurance that in certain circumstances it would be permissible to kill the anti-Christ.

JUDGE NGOEPE: But Dr Treurnicht was not a member of that church, was he?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I don't know - no, I don't think he transferred over but he was very sympathetic towards that church and he was very disillusioned with the hypocrisy within the Dutch Reformed Church at the time of his death.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Did you have with members of your church, did you have a discussion of - or perhaps let me start it after the event. After the murder of Chris Hani did you discuss the incident with your church?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, I didn't have the opportunity. Only, as I testified earlier ... (intervention).

JUDGE NGOEPE: Before the killing, did you discuss the question of ... (intervention)

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman ...

JUDGE NGOEPE: ... killing somebody, an anti-Christ?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I discussed it with Dr Treurnicht, because to me he epitomised everything that I believed in.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Yes, I am asking about people in your church.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No.

JUDGE NGOEPE: You said Dr Treurnicht was not in your church.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, but I couldn't go to people within my church, Mr Chairman, and discuss this, because I was then spreading the net of potential informants against me and ... (intervention).

JUDGE NGOEPE: On what basis do you think that your church would have approved of this?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well, Mr Chairman, it was the anti-Christ. The church sees Communism as the "bose magte in die wêreld".

JUDGE NGOEPE: That's the basis on which you come to that conclusion?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes Sir.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Yes.

MR BIZOS: (Indistinct - speaker's mike not on) ... from the same - I am going to read out from the same report that I have been reading up to now, in furtherance to the learned Judge's question.

"The APK is totally opposed to violence in any form and believes in missionary work amongst Blacks, whom they view with their patronising paternalistic outlook."

Does that correctly describe the policy of your church?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't know, Mr Chairman, but I am sure that wasn't written by somebody from the AP Kerk, was it?

MR BIZOS: I am asking whether you agree with it or not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not aware of that. I am not aware of that ...(intervention)

MR BIZOS: Are you able to deny that this is the attitude of your church?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not able to comment, because I have no detail ...(intervention)

MR BIZOS: You are a member of this ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I have no deals whatsoever about their missionary activities, no deals, no details.

MR BIZOS: Well ...

JUDGE NGOEPE: Mr Derby-Lewis, I think this is a legitimate question, because it flows from what you said to me that your church would have approved the killing of Chris Hani.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

JUDGE NGOEPE: And I think this question is a legitimate one, in that they read you the stance, what appears to be the stance of the church, which seems to contradict what you say.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE NGOEPE: And I think you should apply your mind to that aspect.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am trying to do that, Mr Chairman, but that - that statement there, it was clearly produced not by somebody in the AP Kerk, and the question was whether I was aware of the AP Kerk having missionary ideals amongst Africans. And my answer was I don't know. I am not aware of their missionary activities.

MR BIZOS: Can you refer us to any statement made by the founder of the church or anyone in authority of the church or anyone who is capable of interpreting the doctrine of the church which says that your church would have approved of your murdering Mr Hani in April 1993?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, without the necessary research facilities I find that it impossible to answer at this stage.

MR BIZOS: Why did you tell the learned Judge that your church would approve of it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Because, Mr Chairman, I have subsequently discussed it with ministers of religion and not have at any stage received any criticism from them, on the contrary, I have had maximum support from them.

MR BIZOS: Now when you say prior to the action, they may be you know, they may be ministers of religion who are very forgiving and maybe they want to comfort you, but prior to your - prior to your doing this, did your church or anybody in your church suggest that a solution for South Africa's problems was killing people like Hani?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: No.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Excuse me, Mr Chairman, can I just ask my learned friend a question? Thank you, Mr Chairman. Procedural query which I have, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Yes, you asked me who - what was the source of the matter that I - the information about your church came. There is a report, partly based on research, and partly based on interviews, by the Independent Board of Inquiry on the Rightwing Organisations.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, with respect, I have been in prison four and a half years, I don't even know the existence of that body mentioned.

MR BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: So I can't comment on it.

MR BIZOS: Well, anyway ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: The validity.

MR BIZOS: You can't deny that.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: But I can't confirm that either.

MR BIZOS: Yes. Have you studied Catholicism or Protestantism or their views on who may be branded the anti-Christ, Mr Derby-Lewis?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, I have been too busy with politics.

MR BIZOS: And yet you performed this act for religious reasons.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I have already explained the justification which I sought.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, alright.

MR BIZOS: Would you read out the second objective, please?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Certainly, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: On 11, E11.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's number two, Mr Chairman?

MR BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

"To destroy the military leader

of Umkhonto weSizwe, who, by his own acknowledgements were responsible for the cold-blooded murders of elderly Whites, women and children and attacks on them and on our security force personnel."

MR BIZOS: Yes. Did you discuss this with anybody, your party, your church or anybody else?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have already said I haven't, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: And you never advanced that as any reason to any of the people - you didn't seek anybody's opinion in relation to this?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman. As a leader of the party I ... (intervention).

MR BIZOS: Would you read the next one, please?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Certainly, Mr Chairman, item number three, I repeat again

"To focus attention on the fact that the future of my people was being betrayed through concocted forums such as the Multi-party Forum and that we were aware of those plans and that we would oppose them with everything in our power."

MR BIZOS: Yes. You didn't seek anybody's advice whether this was a valid reason or not, before you committed the murder?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I didn't have to, Mr Chairman, there were sufficient statements ...(intervention)

MR BIZOS: And in the fourth, the fourth paragraph?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Number four

"To focus attention on the fact that my people are entitled to a territory of their own in Southern Africa, wherever it may be, but that this is indisputable."

MR BIZOS: Yes. Now at the time that this murder was committed there were negotiations at Codesa.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Which we were not a part of, Mr Chairman, yes.

MR BIZOS: Some of the time you were and some of the time you were not.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: At the time that this occurred we were not, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: When was your party party to the negotiations at Codesa and when was it not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I don't remember the exact dates. I'm sorry.

MR BIZOS: Did they take part in Codesa before this?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't know, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Did they take part in Codesa after this?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't know, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Well ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: My details on... (intervention).

MR BIZOS: For a person - I'm sorry. For a person who was so vitally concerned for the future of the country, you seem to have taken very little notice of the political process that was taking place at the time?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, for my people Codesa was totally irrelevant.

MR BIZOS: Why did your party join them from, I think twice if not - at least once if not twice?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well, Mr Chairman, I can assure you I had nothing to do with that decision and opposed Codesa all the time. In fact, I led a demonstration of rightwing organisations against Codesa at one stage.

MR BIZOS: Contrary to the policy of your party ... (intervention).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: My party ...

MR BIZOS: ... which we know on an occasion joined it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: My party were not there when it happened, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Oh, I see.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Right.

MR BIZOS: Yes. Now I want to pay some attention to what Mr Walus said. Would you please turn to R4, part 2, at page 306?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry, the page number, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: 306.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, that's - 306. Yes, I have it, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Please let us ask you what you say about what Mr Walus said to the police

"After this I saw a copy of the list to which is referred in the document. He identified a list of nine names to me as the list that he had used, and on which he had also written down Chris Hani's motor vehicle's registration number. Mr Walus' version was as follows."

Now listen to it carefully and let us see whether you agree with this possibly.

"Do you know this typed lists with the nine names on it which is numbered by hand? I see the following BMW 525i - BWY5253. It is also written by hand next to the name Chris Hani.

Walus: Yes, this is a photocopy of the list which I used during my reconnoitring of Chris Hani and Nelson Mandela. I numbered it myself. During one of my reconnoitring of Chris Hani, I noticed the BMW 525i at his house and wrote down the registration number on the car next to his name."

Now do you, did you ask Mr Walus to reconnoitre Mr Mandela's house?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I did not, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: If what he says here is correct, do you say that he did it on his own account?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I think you must direct that question to Mr Walus, Mr Chairman, I am not competent to reply to that.

MR BIZOS: Do you know whether your wife asked him to do it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have no idea, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Was Mr Walus to be just the puller of the trigger or was he also responsible for decisions of who should live and die in the ANC and SACP?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, when Mr Walus and I discussed it, we identified Mr Chris Hani as the target.

MR BIZOS: Did you give him any authority at any stage to reconnoitre anyone else?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Do you know whether your wife gave him any authority to go and reconnoitre anyone else?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: In view of your great friendship with him, can you advance any possible reason why he should have reconnoitred Mr Mandela's house without his being requested either by you or by your wife?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, my friendship with Mr Walus does not make me a mind-reader, and as I suggested earlier, perhaps if Mr Bizos would be better advised to direct the question to Mr Walus.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, did you ask him?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: He asked me that question, Mr Chairman, and I said no.

JUDGE WILSON: Because I have a note of your evidence-in-chief on Wednesday afternoon, when you said, and I read from my notes, that

"You had ruled out Easter weekend as innocent people might be at home and get injured. I don't know why he chose that day. Walus told me that he had to reconnoitre and surveillance the routes, for bodyguards, et cetera. He said he had been doing this to a couple of houses".

Did you ask him, Mr Derby-Lewis, who the other houses were?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I didn't, Mr Chairman, because there was no need to, because I had identified Mr Chris Hani as the target and what Walus chose to do in his free time, was his choice.

MR BIZOS: Well, I want to suggest to you, Mr Derby-Lewis, that that is not the only point on which you have contradicted the evidence on the record. I will come back to it once we have checked our notes, in order to show you that there are a number of other instances where you actually contradict your evidence, but let us proceed.

He says:

"I numbered it myself ..."

Did I read the whole of it, I can't remember? No, okay. Yes, this -

"I numbered it myself. During one of my reconnoitring of Mr Chris Hani I noticed the BMW 525i at his house and wrote down the registration number of the car next to his name. The number plates were false and it was mentioned and I put it the next day to Mr Walus that it was false

"How was it false?

One day when I was driving in Lindenvale, Kempton Park area, I saw a red Laser, the same like the ones I am driving. I wrote down that registration number and bought stick-on numbers at a hardware shop to fit the same registration number that the other red Laser which I wrote down. I used the stick-on numbers on my red Laser number plates the first time I reconnoitred Hani's home, that was for security reasons."

Did you discuss with him how he was reconnoitring and that he was using false number plates?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, those arrangements were his own.

MR BIZOS: Please look at page 307? The second paragraph towards the end

"Clive and I started to discuss in the direction of eliminating selected members of the ANC/SACP Alliance."

Is that true or false?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: What, where are you? Oh, halfway down the second paragraph?

MR BIZOS: Halfway down the second paragraph, ja, "Clive and I". Is that true?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, we discussed how to achieve the objective of stopping this in a very general manner, and as I mentioned in my testimony earlier, that if this attack on the late Chris Hani had not had the desired effect, then obviously we would have had to target a further member of the enemy.

MR BIZOS: Please read that statement and tell me whether it is true or false?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

"That was unacceptable for us and Clive and I started to discuss in the direction of eliminating selective members of the ANC/SACP Alliance."

MR BIZOS: Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, that's correct.

MR BIZOS: And is the date correct that this started in February 1992?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, because you will see that he actually, he says there

"Especially during the second part of 1992 when Clive and I discussed the worsening of the security situation."

And I have already testified that after the mobilisation story we started discussing plans of how to achieve and how to stop the rot.

MR BIZOS: Yes. Well, was - during the second part of 1992, is that date correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: So your discussion about eliminating people started with Walus in the second part of 1992. Would you like to give us a month when that started?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, I don't recall exactly when, but I know it would be after September.

MR BIZOS: After?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: The latter part of September.

MR BIZOS: Late September?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And after that, after the mobilisation congress had been held.

MR BIZOS: Late September. Very well. You say after the Kimberley ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It would have been after the mobilisation congress.

MR BIZOS: Yes, very well, thank you, that's near enough for my purposes, thank you.

"Clive asked me if I was prepared to eliminate political opponents and I agreed to do so."

Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct, that was part of our discussions, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: And when was that discussion?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That was also in that period, it was an ongoing discussion.

MR BIZOS: September, September 1992?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, that would have been - it was part of our ongoing discussions, Mr Chairman, we didn't have one discussion. We were having ongoing discussions. Every time we had an opportunity to come together we had these discussions. This would probably have been towards the end of October.

MR BIZOS: Yes, this October?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, I would say October.

MR BIZOS: Very well.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Even November maybe.

MR BIZOS: Well, thank you, maybe October, November. Let's go on.

"Towards the end of February 1993, during a visit to Clive at his home, he showed me a list with nine names."

Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct, yes.

MR BIZOS: "We discussed the names on the list and I numbered them according to priority of elimination."

Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, that's not correct, Mr Chairman, I think he must have misunderstood. It was in order of priority of enmity towards the Conservative Party, which I stated on a number of occasions.

MR BIZOS: How could a person misunderstand order of priority to do what or not to do, I don't know what to do, what's supposed to do, the priority, with elimination?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, this question must be directed to Mr Walus, I can't answer for his statements.

MR BIZOS: "At that stage no date was set when to begin with the eliminations."

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct.

MR BIZOS: "Clive only said that I must work sensibly."

What did that mean?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well, he ... (intervention).

MR BIZOS: Well, first of all did you say that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, but ... (intervention).

MR BIZOS: You did say it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... the time-frame is a bit different, Mr Chairman. What I testified earlier is that I decided - we decided in February that Hani was going to be the target, and he then got the address list. He then went on to do the recce and it carried on from there.

MR BIZOS: "At that stage no date was set when to begin with eliminations, only said that I must work sensibly."

Work at what?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well, with the planning of the assassination of Mr Chris Hani.

MR BIZOS: You say that the only person envisaged was Chris Hani? Is that your evidence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct, Mr Chairman, yes.

MR BIZOS: And if this was said by Mr Walus to the police, it's wrong?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I think that perhaps the language problem could have been responsible for that, but I don't know, you must direct that question to Mr Walus.

MR BIZOS: Do you speak Polish, Mr Derby-Lewis?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I don't, Mr Chairman, but Mr Walus battles with English.

MR BIZOS: What language did you speak to him?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I spoke to him in English, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Did you ever have any trouble communicating with him?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I didn't, Mr Chairman, no.

MR BIZOS: Why do you say that he may have had communication problems with the police?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I suggested that as a possibility and then I also said direct the question to Mr Walus, don't direct it at me.

MR BIZOS: I see, yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Because I can't explain it.

MR BIZOS: "After I ..."

JUDGE NGOEPE: Sorry, Mr Bizos, sorry to interrupt here. The word "elimination" here has been used more than once.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

JUDGE NGOEPE: And with regard to the first one you said that as far as you are concerned this had to - all you were doing with him, with Mr Walus, was to set the names in order of enmity?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, I testified earlier that in February, shortly after the statement by Mr Hani that the weapons must come back from Angola, that I identified Mr Hani as a target and that's when we actually started talking about the elimination of Hani.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Ja, but I am reading from here, the sentence,

"...and I numbered them according to priority of elimination."

and you told us that that was not the - that was not the purpose. When the names were set out in...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I said we numbered them in a priority order in terms of their enmity ...(intervention)

JUDGE NGOEPE: That is correct.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ....towards the - I don't know why Mr Walus said this, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Yes, and my question is, was the discussion between yourself and him such that it could possibly have caused Mr Walus to misunderstand the discussion between you and him? To think that they were being listed for in priority of elimination instead of understanding that this was - they are being listed in order of enmity?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, we were clear, that only Hani had to be eliminated, but then during our discussions we also had discussed that if this doesn't succeed then obviously we will - may have to target somebody else to achieve the desired objective.

JUDGE NGOEPE: It would have had to have been a major misunderstanding between him, between you and Mr Walus. If he thinks this - I list these people in this order for purposes of elimination, while you on the other hand think that these people are being listed in order of enmity?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

JUDGE NGOEPE: There would have to be quite a huge misunderstanding between you two.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It could be with the two concepts, Mr Chairman, the elimination of Hani and the fact that if it didn't achieve the desired effect the elimination of others could have caused that confusion.

JUDGE WILSON: Why should you want to list them in a list of enmity to the Conservative Party?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't know, Mr Chairman, quite honestly. We needed a code, as I mentioned in my earlier testimony, we needed a code so that we could discuss the question of the assassination over the telephone without triggering off suspicion to either of our womenfolk or anyone else who may be in the vicinity and the numbers suited it, suited that purpose.

JUDGE WILSON: But if there was only one person who was going to be assassinated you would never have had to mention anybody else. You wouldn't need a selection of numbers, would you? You could just talk about our friend.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, but Mr Walus insisted he be given the list to take with him with a number on it.

JUDGE WILSON: He insisted on the numbers?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, and he actually numbered, I think he testified somewhere in this or given a statement that he numbered the list.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Mr Bizos, I interrupted you while you were to move on to the next paragraph.

MR BIZOS: But you see, would you not have to speculate in relation to the questions put to you by the learned Judges, Mr Derby-Lewis, because Mr Walus says in the next paragraph

"After I received the list from Clive Derby-Lewis, I started to do reconnoitring."

Am I doing wrong in using the word "reconnoitring"? I don't know what, I think this is military - reconnaissance. So if you don't mind, I will use the English word.

"After I received the list from Clive Derby-Lewis I started to reconnoitre. I started with number one on the list, Nelson Mandela."

Is that false?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, that question I ask you to direct to Mr Walus.

MR BIZOS: No, the statement is ... (intervention).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is, Nelson Mandela was not a target.

MR BIZOS: And he certainly didn't do that on your instructions?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Or with your knowledge?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Or the instructions or knowledge of your wife?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, as far as I know, and I can't speak once again for my wife.

MR BIZOS: So if your evidence is correct then presumably the Committee is entitled to deduce that Mr Walus is his own man, he doesn't need a Derby-Lewis to do things for him?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, whatever Mr Bizos's speculation, I instructed Mr Walus to target Mr Chris Hani.

MR BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Whatever else he did he must be asked why he did it.

MR BIZOS: "And after I reconnoitred his house once, I thought the old goat was not worth it. Joe Slovo, priority number two on the list, address was not available, and I decided to concentrate on priority number three on the list, Chris Hani."

This, of course, is completely inconsistent with your evidence and the answer to the question posed by the learned Judges?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct.

MR BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It could have been prompted by a volume intake of alcohol as was testified, Mr Chairman. (Laughter).

MR BIZOS: Oh, I see. (Laughter). You are prepared to speculate about that.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am just offering it as a suggestion, I am not speculating. He will, he will answer the question, I understand.

MR BIZOS: Incidentally, did he ever utter any complaints against the police to you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well, he told me how he had been treated, Mr Chairman, and he told me that at one stage he couldn't remember how he got back to his cell, and he told me that he made no statements to them.

MR BIZOS: He told you that he made no statements to them?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct.

MR BIZOS: He didn't tell you what is recorded on page 306 -"Captain ..."

Bottom of the page -

"Captain, please don't go and arrest Clive Derby-Lewis also now. He is a very big friend of mine, I will take everything on myself. I was alone when I shot Hani. Clive and I only planned the murder together."

He is a great friend of yours?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: He didn't tell me that, Mr Chairman. But I appreciate his friendship.

MR BIZOS: Especially if he was going to cover up for you.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, that is speculation, sorry.

MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson, for record purposes, that is not Mr Walus' statements, that is Capt Deetliefs, and I took it up with my learned friend, Mr Mpshe, that there are cassettes that refers to interviews with Mr Derby-Lewis and it also refers to the specific statement, but up to this point we have not received it. It is part of the questioning. Just to test the accuracy of this, we will have to look at that. So it is not accepted that if you remain quiet that it is correct.

MR BIZOS: It's reported in the first person as if it were a statement made, but we will prove the circumstances under which -and once you raised, this is raised on your behalf, what did you say the name of the colonel was that you sent it to? That you sent the letter of thanks to?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: The letter I directed to the head of the uniform branch of Benoni Police Station, Mr Chairman, and that was to the best of my knowledge, was a gentleman by the name of Colonel Roos - R-O-O-S.

MR BIZOS: Thank you for that clarification. Did you - were you regularly asked by the people in charge of the cells and of the police station, whether you had any complaints?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I can't recall them asking me once, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: You can't?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No. And I wasn't bothered about it either.

MR BIZOS: If there are references in the Occurrences Book, contemporaneously written whilst you were there, that you specifically said that you had no complaints, will you say that those entries are false?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I will say they are false, most definitely, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: And we will produce the original letter tomorrow, and you may have to rethink as to who you wrote it to and how you sent it, Mr Derby-Lewis.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is not possible, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: Yes, well, don't anticipate it.

Now I want to deal with your wife's statement in relation to this list, please. Firstly, in R4, page 161, the second part of paragraph 80.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Page 161, Mr Chairman?

MR BIZOS: 161.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: The second part of paragraph 80.

MR BIZOS: "The next day it was confirmed in the Press that Kuba had been arrested. Clive then said that it appeared to him as if Kuba had been set-up because it was a rather amateurish job and Kuba had not, for example, changed the number plates and so forth."

Did you say that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman ...

MR BIZOS: I beg your pardon, did you say what your wife says you said?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I am not prepared to comment on anything contained in my wife's statement, because I have in my possession here a statement by one Johannes Hendrik de Waal. I don't know whether it has been discovered to the Committee. But this statement, Mr Chairman, from the information on this statement it is obvious to me that Captain De Waal was lying about certain aspects of his treatment of my wife during her detention. One of the points that I picked up clearly, was a point that she had no complaints, according to him, any day. And suddenly, there was a problem where he said and my wife had to take her medication. Now if my wife had no complaints about illness, I don't understand what she had medication for, and in fact, she told me later that she had had, what she believed to be a minor heart attack in hospital, and as a result had to take medication, but there is nothing in this statement which says anything about that incident.

MR BIZOS: We will look at that statement in due course, Mr Derby-Lewis. Will you please listen to the question? Your wife has written and signed a statement

"The next day it was confirmed in the Press that Kuba had been arrested. Clive then said that it appeared to him as if Kuba had been set-up because it was a rather amateurish job and Kuba had not, for example, changed the number plates and so forth."

I am only asking you to admit or deny the statement attributed to you by your wife.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That information is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BIZOS: It is correct? Oh, now we are getting somewhere, yes. (Laughter).

Now let us go to other - have you forgotten that you said that you never discussed changing number plates or anything like that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I didn't say that, Mr Chairman. I said that Mr Walus was responsible for his own arrangements.

MR BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It came out in the court case.

MR BIZOS: No, you said, very well, we will leave it at that. I am going on to a new point, I don't know whether you want to continue, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. If you are going to embark on another line at this stage, this might be an appropriate time to adjourn. We will adjourn now and resume at 09:30 tomorrow morning.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS