Amnesty Hearings

PART-HEARD MATTER

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) proceeding today with the applications of Messrs Nesamari, Ramushwana, Managa, Ramaligela, Netshivale. We commenced these proceedings some time ago in Tzaneen and the matter is part heard. Four of the applicants have testified and today we'll be proceeding with the evidence of the fifth applicant, Mr Netshivale. And I'm also informed that we'll also be hearing evidence from the victims.

Before we start, I'd just like to introduce the Panel to you. On my right is Judge Sisi Khampepe, she is a member of the Amnesty Committee and is an acting judge attached to the Cape Court. On my left is Advocate Francis Bosman, also a member of the Amnesty Committee and she comes from the Cape. And I am Selwyn Miller, a judge of the High Court from the Eastern Cape, I'm attached to the Transkei division of the Court. I would at this stage also like to ask the legal representatives to kindly place themselves again on record for the benefit of those persons who weren't present at the last hearing.

MR MEYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, my name is Meyer, initials BH and I'm an advocate at the Pretoria Bar and I've been instructed in this matter by the firm Booyens, Du Preez and Boshoff, represented by my colleague, the attorney, Mr De Klerk.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Van Rensburg?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman, my name is Van Rensburg, SJ from Kriek and Van Rensburg Attorneys in Tzaneen. I act on behalf of or under instructions from the State Attorney and I represent the fifth applicant in this hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson. I'm Lulama Mtanga, David and ...(indistinct) for the Truth Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van Rensburg, it's your client that has to testify this morning.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman, we are indeed prepared and I'd like to call Captain Carlson Netshivale to the stand.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Netshivale, do you have any objection to taking the oath?

MR NETSHIVALE: No, I don't object.

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated. Thank you, Mr Van Rensburg, you may proceed.

EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Captain, can we start off by you putting your current rank and position on record, please.

MR NETSHIVALE: (Microphone not picking up).

MR VAN RENSBURG: Where are you stationed?

MR NETSHIVALE: I am staying at Thandou.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Can you tell us something about yourself? When did you join the police force?

MR NETSHIVALE: That was in 1979.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And were you subsequently also a member of the Venda Force?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes, it's true.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Evidence has been led so far that you actually were also a member of the Security Branch, is that correct?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes, it's correct.

MR VAN RENSBURG: When did you join the Security Branch?

MR NETSHIVALE: I joined the Security Branch immediately after training 1979.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: May I interrupt, Mr Van Rensburg? I seem to be having serious problems with my headphones. My apologies, could I be assisted?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that better now, Judge Khampepe?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Sorry, Mr Van Rensburg, you may carry on.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Netshivale, can you please us something? How did it come about that you actually joined the Security Branch? Were you appointed or were you invited or did you make application to join the Security Branch?

MR NETSHIVALE: After training, I was just selected to join the Security Branch. I didn't apply for that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, and was there some kind of security clearance that you had to obtain before you could join the Security Branch?

MR NETSHIVALE: What I know is that the person doesn't simply join the Security Branch but, there were certain investigations which were made to find out if the person was against or in favour of the government of the day. But maybe it was found that I was in favour of the government of the day.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Who actually did these investigations that you're referring to?

MR NETSHIVALE: I can't say who it is because after basic training I was just selected to work in the Security Branch.

MR VAN RENSBURG: As a member of the Security Branch, was it ever expected of you to make such an investigation on other policemen to find out if they were suited to join the Security Branch?

MR NETSHIVALE: What happened is that for a person to be in the Security Branch, there were enquiries which were made to find out whether the person is for the government of the day or is against the government of the day, just like if a person was in favour of the government, then that person could be taken and work for the Security Branch.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, the question is did you actually investigate some persons for this specific clearance?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes, I investigated other people when they were to be appointed to the police service. There were enquiries so that we can go and investigate that person.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And was it expected of you to file a report on such an investigation?

MR NETSHIVALE: There were reports which were written and directed to the office and, I think they were filed but personally, I'm not sure if they were filed or not. But I still remember that everything was written down but I suspect that it was kept for filing.

MR VAN RENSBURG: ...(indistinct) If it was found that an applicant was sympathetic to the liberation struggle, do you think he would be appointed to the Security Branch?

MR NETSHIVALE: You are referring to me or to other people who were employed?

CHAIRPERSON: To any person, the question was, Mr Netshivale, would you think that people who were sympathetic towards the liberation struggle would be appointed to the police force?

MR NETSHIVALE: No, they wouldn't.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Let's now turn to the events after 26 October 1981. That is the day on which the bombing took place at the police station. What rank ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The Sibasa Police Station?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Pardon, Mr Chairman, yes. Sibasa police station. What rank did you hold at the stage?

MR NETSHIVALE: I was a constable.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Were you present at the Sibasa police station on that day?

MR NETSHIVALE: No, I wasn't there.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Can you please start to describe your specific role in the investigation and the interrogation that followed the bombing?

MR NETSHIVALE: After the bombing of the police station, there were people who were arrested. And it was then that I was called upon to participate in the interrogation.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Were you every present during the arrest of any of these people?

MR NETSHIVALE: I was not present.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you play any part in their actual arrest at all?

MR NETSHIVALE: When they were arrested, I was not there. I saw them while they were in our offices only.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, now, when these people were found yourself in the offices, what were you instructions? And tell us what was your involvement in that.

MR NETSHIVALE: What I participated in was when I was instructed to interrogate those people. And then it was there when I was involved in the assaulting so that they can tell the truth about how the police station was bombed at Sibasa and by whom.

MR VAN RENSBURG: ...(indistinct) instructed by whom?

MR NETSHIVALE: The persons who normally gave instructions were people who were working with those things, more specially, Mr Ramaligela, who is also Mr Managa, they are the people who were seriously involved in this issue. And others who used to believe in that those people should be beaten up. And then it was just referred to while we were at work that those people who are against the government must be assaulted.

MR VAN RENSBURG: These people that you have named just now, were they of equal rank to yourself or of higher rank?

MR NETSHIVALE: They were of higher rank and I was their junior.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for the record, Mr Netshivale, Mr Ramaligela and Mr Managa who you've just made reference to, are they applicants number three and four in this application at this hearing?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Do you understand the question, Mr Netshivale? The question is are you referring to applicants number two and three in this hearing.

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now General Ramushwana testified that at the time, there was an investigation or an interrogation team selected to investigate the bombings. The question is were you part of that investigation team?

MR NETSHIVALE: No, I was not part of the investigating team. I was just called upon to give a little help.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Perhaps we should now turn to more specific instances. Can you tell this hearing specifically who the persons are who you assaulted or were present when they were assaulted?

MR NETSHIVALE: It's Mr Chikororo, Phoshwana, Phosiwa ...(intervention)

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Won't you be slow, we are trying to take down what you are saying. You've indicated that you participated in the assault of Mr Chikororo.

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, who else?

MR NETSHIVALE: Phosiwa, Phoshwana and Mahumela.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Anyone else?

MR NETSHIVALE: In connection with? With incidents at Sibasa or any other thing?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Only in connection with the incident after the Sibasa bombing.

MR NETSHIVALE: Those are the only people I can still remember.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now starting with Mr Chikororo, can you tell us where did you find him and what did you do to him?

MR NETSHIVALE: ...(indistinct) Mr Chikororo, he was arrested and he was brought to the office which is referred to as 'Vembe' by them. And there he was interrogated about the bombing of Sibasa police station and he was refusing, saying that he knows nothing, he was beaten and I also participated by using my clubs.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Pardon, by using what?

MR NETSHIVALE: Slapping.

MR VAN RENSBURG: You slapped him with open hands?

MR NETSHIVALE: Sometimes we used bare hands and because they were not beaten by myself alone, they were also beaten by electric shocks.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And what else?

MR NETSHIVALE: And watered bag covering their head.

CHAIRPERSON: I think at this moment, Mr Netshivale, we're talking just about Mr Chikororo, you're saying 'they were beaten,' just confine yourself to Mr Chikororo and the question put to you by Mr Van Rensburg is what did you yourself do to Mr Chikororo? You said you hit him with your open hand, was there anything else you did? And then perhaps the next question will be asked is 'Did anybody else do something to him in your presence?' But just at this stage tell us what you personally did to Mr Chikororo.

MR NETSHIVALE: There is nothing which I did except helping him be beaten.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: In what way did you assist?

MR NETSHIVALE: ...(no English interpretation)

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Did you not at any stage slap him with an open hand?

MR NETSHIVALE: I've already explained that I slapped him.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, your evidence was a little confusing because it seemed to suggest that what you were explaining, you are also explaining the participation of other people. Did you use electric shocks on Mr Chikororo?

MR NETSHIVALE: No, I didn't use those.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: So, you actually slapped him?

MR NETSHIVALE: I only slapped him.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: How many times?

MR NETSHIVALE: I can't remember offhand but I know very well that I did slap him.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: On one occasion?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, it happened a long time ago, I can't remember offhand now. I only remember that I slapped him.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Did you personally participate in assisting anyone to use the water bad method of torture?

MR NETSHIVALE: I was merely participating in helping or assisting.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: By holding him down?

MR NETSHIVALE: Just to hold him so that they shouldn't run away or should not lose whatever had tightened them.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Mr Van Rensburg?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Netshivale, I'm still asking questions about how you assaulted Mr Chikororo only. Did you assault Mr Chikororo in any way else except to slap him with open hands?

MR NETSHIVALE: There was no other means that I used in assaulting Mr Chikororo.

MR VAN RENSBURG: If we can now turn to the interrogation of Mr Phosiwa, can you tell us what your part in the interrogation was?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, regarding Mr Phosiwa, I did the same as I mentioned earlier?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Only slapping him with open hands?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes. I only slapped him in a similar manner.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Were you ever present when Mr Phosiwa was assaulted by other means, by other persons?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Please tell us about that.

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, the same methods were used, the bag full of water and electrification method.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Can you tell us in more specifics how he was electrically shocked?

MR NETSHIVALE: There was equipment which I can really relate to now because I wasn't personally - directly involved in using it. What used to happen was that they will attach it to the earlobes and it will be put around, sort of like there will be a winding system. That's all about it, regarding electrification or electric shock. Well, regarding the water bag, it was about putting a small bag in water, putting it around the head so that he shouldn't breathe well.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, did you ever see the electrodes during the shock treatment being attached to any other part of Mr Phosiwa's body except his ears?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, what I can remember, it's only on the earlobes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And what were you doing whilst the other persons were busy giving him, that is Mr Phosiwa, these electric shocks? What was your involvement in that?

MR NETSHIVALE: I was personally involved in helping out, just to hold so that they could not get lose, especially the equipment.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, and what was your personal involvement whilst the wet bag was used on Mr Phosiwa?

MR NETSHIVALE: Regarding Mr Phosiwa, it was just a similar method, the bag was put around his head and there was a time he will be released, sometimes I was just watching with other people.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, and during these assaults on Mr Phosiwa and the interrogation whilst you were present, where did you slap him with open hands on his body?

MR NETSHIVALE: I can just remember that it was on the face and even on the back.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And it happened on only one occasion or several different occasions?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, on several occasions.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And did it last over a period of days or several occasions on the same day?

MR NETSHIVALE: It will be an entire period, perhaps even on the following day I wouldn't be in so, I can't tell exactly what happened on the following day however, most of the times I was around, I was on the other office and I will be invited in, especially at the place where they were interrogating.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Are you saying that it is possible that you actually or were present during the assault for several days on Mr Phosiwa?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes, I can vaguely remember that it couldn't have been more than two days, I might have seen him for two days.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Is there anything else you want to add to your evidence before this hearing regarding your assault on Mr Phosiwa?

MR NETSHIVALE: No, nothing further to that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, if we can now turn to the interrogation of the Rev Phoshwana. Can we start off by asking you what did you personally do to assault the Rev Phoshwana?

MR NETSHIVALE: In a similar manner, the method was just of holding when the electric shocks were being conducted.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you slap the Rev Phoshwana at any stage?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes, I did. I did slap him.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Where?

MR NETSHIVALE: I can just remember that it was just in a similar manner, on the face and on the back.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And were you present when the electric shocks and the wet bag treatment was used on Rev Phoshwana?

MR NETSHIVALE: I was personally present.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you do anything more than just holding him so that other persons can give him this treatment?

MR NETSHIVALE: No. I didn't do anything beyond that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: This assault by yourself and the other Security Branch policemen on Rev Phoshwana, did it take place over a number of days or only one day?

MR NETSHIVALE: I can't remember vividly, what I can remember is that it may not have been more than two days.

MR VAN RENSBURG: We come now to the fourth person that you have mentioned and that is Mr Mahumela. Mr Mahumela was a prosecutor at the time, is that correct?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: He's the third person, Mr Van Rensburg. Isn't he the third person?

MS MTANGA: Chikororo, Phosiwa, Phoshwana.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Oh, yes, fine.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Were you present when the said Mr Mahumela was assaulted?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes, I was present.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you personally assault that said person?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes, I did beat him. I slapped him on the face and on the back. I also held him down as the electric shock was taking place.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And the wet bag?

MR NETSHIVALE: I was merely assisting.

MR VAN RENSBURG: How?

MR NETSHIVALE: As that bag was put, they will want to resist so I was just holding so that they shouldn't take it off.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Were you present when Mr Mahumela was assaulted by any of the other policemen in any other way than the ways that you've discussed so far?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes, I will personally be there at some time but not always. I might have been out on duty but, during most of the times of his assault, I was there. He might have been beaten in my absence.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Netshivale, we're not talking about things that happened in your absence, we want to know what you're involvement was. So the question is did any other policeman in your presence assault Mr Mahumela in any other way than the ways that you have mentioned?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, what I can think of is that he was being beaten by other people who were on duty.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And these people, were they members of the Security Branch?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How was he being beaten? Was he being hit with open hands or fists, was he being kicked, was he being hit with clubs or any other sort of instrument?

MR NETSHIVALE: I can't remember vividly but he might have been kicked at some stage, he might have been kicked at some stage. I can't remember so vividly in as far as how the assault took place.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now you've testified that you were actually only involved in a minor way during these assaults on these four persons, is that correct?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes because I will only be invited to come and assist in a similar fashion.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Invited by whom?

MR NETSHIVALE: The following people invited me, Mr Managa, Mr Ramaligela and some other senior people whom I cannot recall but these are the people who will invite me.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And as far as you were concerned, what was the object of this torture and interrogation? Why was it executed on them?

MR NETSHIVALE: It is because these people were not really in favour of the then government. And as such they will be arrested because it was assumed that they wanted to contradict the principles of the then government.

CHAIRPERSON: So, what are you saying, Mr Netshivale? Are you saying that they were tortured for the sole reason because they were not in favour of the government?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying because ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not trying to get - or was not one of the objectives trying to get them to make some sort of confession or other for the purposes of the police investigation?

MR NETSHIVALE: One reason was that they should really confess as to who were the people involved in the bombing of the police station.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: How do you make a statement as you've just made now, that they were arrested because they were not in favour of the then government if you knew, at that time, that the reason for their arrest was to solicit information with regard to the bombing of Sibasa police station?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, the question wasn't put in that fashion. If it had come that way, I would have answered that they were being beaten so as to bring confession forward.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: The question was put to you by your lawyer. Your lawyer was very specific in questioning you, in trying elicit the reason as to why the persons that you've alluded to as having participated in the assault were assaulted.

MR NETSHIVALE: I didn't interpret it that way. I thought the question wanted me to say exactly what I said. Now that you are putting it that way, I now realise that it had something to do with the confession regarding the police station of Sibasa.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Interesting. You may proceed, Mr Van Rensburg.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. During the time of the assaults and the interrogations on these four persons, were they being asked questions at the same time as the assault?

MR NETSHIVALE: It wasn't taking place simultaneously. There was a time when somebody will come in and there will be another person.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I'm sorry, I didn't follow your answer. Can you just repeat the answer please?

MR NETSHIVALE: What was the question again?

MR VAN RENSBURG: The question was at the time when these people were assaulted, was there certain questions put to them at the same time?

MR NETSHIVALE: Can you please repeat the question for me? Are you saying were they being asked personally or are you saying were questions being directed at them at the same time when they were being assaulted?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, the question is were questions being directed at them at the same time during the interrogation and during the assault?

MR NETSHIVALE: They will be asked questions at the same time as being beaten and on other occasions they will be beaten without being asked questions regarding the person who bombed the police station.

MR VAN RENSBURG: No Sir, the questions were mainly aimed at the identity of the persons who bombed the police station, is that correct?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes. The idea was to find out as to who bombed the police station and where they were.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now, can you please tell us your personal feelings at the time. Did you agree with such methods of interrogation?

MR NETSHIVALE: Personally, at the time, it was necessary for them to be beaten, at the same time being asked as to who bombed the police station.

CHAIRPERSON: And why do you say it was necessary for them to be beaten?

MR NETSHIVALE: Because I used to believe that if they were not beaten, they wouldn't really confess as to who were the people who bombed the police station because at the time, it was a measure event. No one will just say he or she had bombed the police station if they hadn't done so.

CHAIRPERSON: So, I take it from what you've said now that your answer to the question put to you by Mr Van Rensburg which was 'Did you agree with the methods used?' is your answer that you did agree with the methods used?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, at the time, there was nothing I could do whether I will agree or not. I had to follow the course of the day or assault them in a similar fashion.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, would you say that your opinion regarding this and the way that suspects should be interrogated has changed since then?

MR NETSHIVALE: Could you repeat the question please for me?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Would you say that your attitude - I'll rephrase the question a little bit to make it easier. Would you say that your attitude as to how suspects should be interrogated, including assault, has changed since 1981?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes, it has since changed.

MR VAN RENSBURG: In what way?

MR NETSHIVALE: Because I can now realise that it was terribly wrong and it was not fair for me to have been doing that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Were you ever alone in the room when you assaulted these four persons that you have testified about?

MR NETSHIVALE: No, there was no such a time where I was personally and physically alone in the room with them.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Were any of the persons ever seriously injured by yourself during these assaults?

MR NETSHIVALE: There was no person who was physically seriously injured at the time.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Would you say that any of the persons needed medical attention during or after these sessions with the shock instrument and the wet bag?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes, sometimes they were taken for medical attention but, during those days even if they were so assaulted, it was difficult for them to go for medical attention.

CHAIRPERSON: We're talking about these particular victims, Mr Chikororo, Phosiwa, Phoshwana, Mahumela?

MR NETSHIVALE: I'm also referring to them.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they or were they not taken for medical treatment that you know of?

MR NETSHIVALE: I can't recall but I don't remember that they were taken to the hospital, in my knowledge. Maybe they were taken without my knowledge but I don't know anything about that. They might have gone there but I didn't see that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I think you still haven't answered the question pertinently. The question put to you is whether anyone needed any medical attention pursuant to his assault whilst you were present.

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes. I think Mr Chikororo was needing medical attention referring to the way he was beaten, he should have taken to the hospital.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Are you referring to the beating by yourself or, what beating specifically?

MR NETSHIVALE: What I've seen is that he was injured, his mouth was red with blood.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Do you think that any of the persons suffered permanent disability because of this assault in which you had been involved?

MR NETSHIVALE: No.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Can you perhaps describe the relationship, if any, that you have today with these victims and specifically the four that you've mentioned, that you've assaulted?

MR NETSHIVALE: I don't have any enmity since it happened. We used to meet and we greet each other and we share jokes together. And then to me and them it's over, it was just a thing of the old days.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And do you have anything specifically to tell them today regarding your actions?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Please proceed.

MR NETSHIVALE: To the people I have assaulted, people like Mr Chikororo, Mr Phosiwa, Mr Managa and Mr Mahumela, I feel very sorry that why I did participate in assaulting them. And then I ask for forgiveness, even to their families, relatives although some of them I have already asked for forgiveness, I'm repeating it today in front of the people to say that I participated - because I participated. With those words I'm saying forgive me please. That was for the past, let us now start with new life in the new South Africa. I thank you.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Is there anything you want to add to your evidence before this hearing?

MR NETSHIVALE: There is nothing new I want to add.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, there are no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Van Rensburg. Mr Meyer, do you have any questions you'd like to ask this applicant, Mr Netshivale?

MR MEYER: Just a few questions, Mr Chairman, not many.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEYER: Mr Netshivale, you testified in your evidence now that you were invited to assist the other interrogators during the assault, is that correct?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes, it's correct.

MR MEYER: Is it also correct that you, at that stage, you were a constable and you were one of the junior members of the Security Branch?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes, it's true.

MR MEYER: And is it also correct that the way that things used to be done was that the junior members would participate in the interrogations in general?

MR NETSHIVALE: You may repeat your question.

MR MEYER: The normal practice at that stage was that junior members could participate in the interrogations as they pleased basically.

MR NETSHIVALE: No, we were normally invited. We were invited to go and participate.

MR MEYER: So, you were not instructed by your senior officers and told by them specifically 'I want you to give this suspect five slaps,' what would happen is that you would be asked to assist during the interrogations, is that correct?

MR NETSHIVALE: Could you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, is it correct that you were not instructed to specifically assault a person but you were merely invited to assist in the interrogation?

MR NETSHIVALE: I was instructed to assault.

MR MEYER: Then why did you say earlier that you were invited?

MR NETSHIVALE: Then we were invited, maybe from my office and then I was instructed to assault or to hold. You were first called and then instructed to do what to do.

MR MEYER: Yes, but if you were instructed you were instructed to assist?

MR NETSHIVALE: Sometimes we were instructed to hold, or we were instructed to assault and then I assaulted.

CHAIRPERSON: So Mr Netshivale, are you saying that the only reason why you assaulted those people who you told us you assaulted was because you were instructed to do so? You never assaulted any of those persons on your volition?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes. Because if it was not allowed, so it was allowed, that is why I was instructed to assault then I assaulted.

CHAIRPERSON: So just to get it clear, before you slapped somebody with your open hands, some other person had said to you 'Netshivale, you go to the victim and slap him.'

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: On the face or on the back or whatever?

MR NETSHIVALE: That was not referred to, where to assault.

CHAIRPERSON: So the only discretion you had was which part of the body to slap the person on?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes, that was my own discretion, I was not instructed where to slap.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Mr Meyer, may I interpose, just to get clarity on what he's saying with regard to this particular aspect of his evidence? Is it your evidence that you were instructed to assault in a particular manner or is it your evidence that you were instructed to assault and it would then be your discretion, you would use your discretion as to how you would assault a particular detainee? Do you get the difference between the two versions?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes, I used my own discretion.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Were you instructed to assault in a particular manner? Like, for instance, would you be instructed to assault by slapping the suspect? Would that be your instruction?

MR NETSHIVALE: There were no instructions on how to assault.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Thank you, Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman. So, Mr Netshivale, are you telling us now that you acted solely on the instructions of your senior officers?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes.

MR MEYER: Does that include Director Ramaligela?

MR NETSHIVALE: But there's a difference in that these things were not happening simultaneously. I don't know, you are referring to which incidents.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, were you at any stage instructed by Mr Ramaligela to participate in the assault on any of the detainees?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes.

MR MEYER: And I take it you told your attorney about that earlier when we started with this hearing?

MR NETSHIVALE: Could you please repeat your question?

MR MEYER: Let me tell it shortly, Mr Netshivale. It was never put by your attorney, to Mr Ramaligela that you acted on his instructions in the assaults. How do you explain that?

MR NETSHIVALE: Maybe he skipped that but, in the statements, it's there.

MR MEYER: Yes, I want to put it to you that you also acted on your own, or voluntarily and that it was not only on the instructions of Mr Ramaligela that you assaulted the victims.

MR NETSHIVALE: There is a certain incidents in which one can just assault without one instructions because it was a tradition that those people must be assaulted but, it started after receiving instructions.

MR MEYER: So, you're saying now that there were occasions in which you assaulted the victims yourself without being instructed?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes, it's true.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Now with regard to the incidents for which you are seeking amnesty, you're applying for the assault on Mr Chikororo, Mr Phosiwa, Mr Mahumela and Phoshwana. And I have understood your evidence to mean that with regard to all these incidents, you acted under instructions, specifically from Mr Managa and Mr Ramaligela, to assault these persons. You have now stated that there would be an occasion where you would assault persons without being instructed. Would those incidents also relate to the assault on the persons that you have mentioned, the four persons that you have mentioned, Chikororo, Phoshwana, Phosiwa, Mahumela? Did you at any stage assault any of these persons without any instruction from either Mr Ramaligela or Mr Managa?

MR NETSHIVALE: That is why I've already explained that the interrogation didn't take place for one day only but, I just - maybe on the other day, maybe I assaulted them without instructions but, I think sometimes, even if they didn't give instructions, because it was known that they were there to be assaulted and interrogated, it could have happened that I assaulted them without such instruction. But it started with instructions.

MR MEYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Netshivale, is it correct that it was normal practice in the Security Branch to use methods of assault and so forth on suspects?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes, they were assaulted. It was not only in the Security Branches. By then, if a person was arrested, he was supposed to be beaten in order to find out evidence. In any case people were assaulted. It wasn't just like today where they are no longer assaulted.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: So you did not require any instructions from anyone to assault a suspect?

MR NETSHIVALE: Sometimes but it was not every person who was to be assaulted but, it depends on how the person is reacting to the questions as they were expected by the interrogator. If the person is telling the truth, then if he was lying, then he could be beaten or assaulted.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: My second question is, there was no need for you to get instructions from any senior officer for you to assault a suspect?

MR NETSHIVALE: There was a need because, one cannot just assault a person not knowing why he or she was arrested but, if we were told why he's arrested and that he or she be assaulted in connection with that case, it's then that we can do that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You've just conceded to Mr Meyer's statement that it was normal practice for the Security Police to use methods of assault on suspects and you conceded, you said 'Yes and it was not only restricted to the Security Branch, it was a practise that was prevalent, not necessarily with regard to the Security Branch but also with regard to the other branches of the police.

MR NETSHIVALE: During those days it was just like that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Thank you, Mr Meyer?

MR MEYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I have nothing further.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEYER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Meyer. Ms Mtanga, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mr Netshivale?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, I do have a few.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Mr Netshivale, you have testified that you were present when Mr Chikororo was tortured. How many people were present at the time you were torturing Mr Chikororo?

MR NETSHIVALE: I can't remember as to how many there were. However, there were many.

MS MTANGA: Can you give us an estimation?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, I'm afraid I cannot lie. I can't tell exactly how many there were.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you're not being asked to lie, Mr Netshivale, what Ms Mtanga is asking you is for an estimation. You said there were many, now that word many is very wide. What do you call many? Was it three people, two, twenty people? Just some sort of idea how many people were present when Mr Chikororo was tortured when you were personally present yourself?

MR NETSHIVALE: I can estimate that there was more than six.

CHAIRPERSON: More than six can mean a thousand. Are you saying about six people or eight people because more than six means anything above six?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, I don't want to say the exact number or the figure which may not have been the right one because I've forgotten, I only know that there were many because I can't really tell you exactly whether there were - or I can only say there were more than six.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you say there were about more than six but about in the region of six people? Because you see more than six means very little, it means only that there were not one, two, three, four or five people or six people. I mean it can mean there were thousands or hundreds of other people.

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, there were not one thousand.

CHAIRPERSON: No, we're trying to get an estimated figure. About how many people were there would you say? I'm not asking you for an exact figure, about how many people?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, that's why I said there have been more than six but there were less than ten, I hope.

CHAIRPERSON: Now that's a better answer. Now we've at least go an estimate of the people.

MS MTANGA: Mr Chikororo will give evidence that there were not less than 15 people who were present at the time he was tortured and who also participated in the torture, what do you say to this?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, I can't really deny, I cannot dispute that because you know, there is a proverb which says that the person who was physically tortured or affected cannot forget.

MS MTANGA: What he wants to know and what he is concerned about in your evidence is that you do not mention the names of the people who participated in the torture besides yourself, Nesamari, Mr Managa and Ramaligela, why is that?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, I haven't been asked to specify the other people in terms of names. I think the question was around the figure.

MS MTANGA: Can you give us the names of the people who participated with you?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes, I can do that.

MS MTANGA: Go ahead and give us the names.

MR NETSHIVALE: Okay, I thought you wanted to ask. I can remember Mr Masindi, Mr Morengeni, Mr Mabuda, Mr Thovhakale, maybe somebody will spell it nicely. Thovhakale, John Managa.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can you just repeat that name, I didn't get it.

INTERPRETER: T-H-O-V-H-A-K-A-L-E.

MS MTANGA: Is Johan Managa the brother of Mr Managa, the applicant in this matter?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other names you can remember?

MR NETSHIVALE: And other people, well, I've forgotten were also there.

MS MTANGA: Was Mr Ramaligela amongst the people that tortured Mr Chikororo? Can you remember if Mr Ramaligela and Mr Managa were present at the time and participated in the torture?

MR NETSHIVALE: Are you specifically referring to Mr Chikororo or to other people? I can't remember exactly regarding Mr Chikororo, it happened a long time ago. I can only remember that a specific person was present when it took place.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember whether Mr Ramaligela and Mr Managa, the applicants at this hearing were present when Mr Chikororo was tortured?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, I can vaguely remember regarding Mr Chikororo.

CHAIRPERSON: You must say whether you can or can't remember. Was Mr Managa, your co-applicant and was Mr Ramaligela present when Mr Chikororo was absent when Mr Chikororo was being tortured?

MR NETSHIVALE: I can still remember that Mr Managa was present.

MS MTANGA: Did he participate in torturing Mr Chikororo?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes, he participated.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Has it not been your evidence that you were instructed specifically by Mr Ramaligela and Mr Managa in assaulting Mr Chikororo?

MR NETSHIVALE: Could you repeat your question, please?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Has it not been your in your evidence-in-chief that you were specifically instructed by Ramaligela and Managa to assault Mr Chikororo?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, these instructions were given haphazardly, not specifically referring to a particular person at the time. He too, Mr Ramaligela, instructed that these people should be assaulted.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Was Mr Ramaligela present when you assaulted Mr Chikororo?

MR NETSHIVALE: That is why I'm saying, regarding Mr Ramaligela, during the time when Mr Chikororo was being assaulted, I cannot really connect whether Mr Managa was present.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I'm not asking about Mr Managa, I'm asking about Mr Ramaligela.

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, I can't remember so vividly as to whether he was in or not.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You can only remember the names that you've mentioned, Masindi, Morengeni, Mabuda and Thovhakale that they were present during Chikororo's assault but you can't remember whether the senior officers were present during Chikororo's assault?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, sometimes they might have been in their offices when we were busy with them. The interrogation room wasn't really next to the office or really in the office, they had their own offices, then they will invite us for interrogation. It might have happened that during the interrogation of a particular person one of the seniors could not have been in so one could not really reconnect what happened in the time, whether Mr Ramaligela was present during the assault of Mr Chikororo, that might have been so however, he may have gone to his office during the time when Mr Chikororo was being assaulted.

CHAIRPERSON: When the electric shock treatment was being applied to Mr Chikororo, was a senior member present?

MR NETSHIVALE: Could you repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: When the electrical shock treatment was being applied to Mr Chikororo, was a senior member present?

MR NETSHIVALE: I can remember that Mr Managa was present.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson. In your evidence, you have stated that electrical shocks were only applied on the earlobes of Mr Chikororo, do you still maintain this testimony?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes. Yes, it was on the earlobes.

MS MTANGA: I put it to you that Mr Chikororo will give evidence that you were involved and that you were one of the people who had tortured him and you were one of those people who had applied electrical shocks on his private parts, what do you say to this?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, I don't know about that. I'm not aware.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Did you, or did you not, ...(indistinct).

MR NETSHIVALE: No, I didn't do that.

MS MTANGA: Regarding the pulling of hair of Rev Phoshwana, you've heard in the evidence that hair was pulled from his private parts, that is his pubic hair.

CHAIRPERSON: And also from his head, I believe.

MS MTANGA: From his head, beard and his pubic hair. Were you one of the people who pulled his hair or did you pull hair from Rev Phoshwana?

MR NETSHIVALE: I can't remember all about the pulling of hair where ever they were.

MS MTANGA: Rev Phoshwana will give evidence that you personally pulled his hair from the head, the beard and also his pubic hair. What do you say to this?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, maybe he will want to lie about me.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Is it something that you can remember or something that you know you did not to do?

MR NETSHIVALE: Could you repeat again, please?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Is the pulling of Rev Phoswana's hair from his body, his pubic hair and also from his beard, something that you know did not do or something that you cannot remember having done?

MR NETSHIVALE: I cannot remember that it took place.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: But you do recall that you slapped him?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: But you can't recall whether you actually did anything other than slapping him?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, I can't remember, I'm just saying I slapped him.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: But you can't recall doing anything other than slapping him, that's my question.

MR NETSHIVALE: I was merely slapping him with my bare hand.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: So you know that you only slapped him and did nothing other than slapping him?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, I'm saying that I don't know any other thing other than slapping. I was merely using my bare hand.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, so it's not something that you can't remember, it's something that you know. You know you did not do anything other than to slap him.

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, what I can remember is that I used my bare hand just to slap him.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you deny that you pulled his hair?

MR NETSHIVALE: I really deny.

MS MTANGA: Mr Netshivale, in respect of the four people you are applying for, that is Messrs Mahumela, Rev Phoshwana, Chikororo and Phosiwa, is it your evidence that you never pulled any of their hair?

MR NETSHIVALE: I can't remember so vividly about the people mentioned above and about the activities.

MS MTANGA: You also don't remember - do you also deny that electrical shocks were applied on all of them, on their private parts?

MR NETSHIVALE: I can't remember regarding the private parts. I can only talk about the earlobes.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't you think it reasonable, Mr Netshivale, if you can remember the electrodes being attached to the earlobes, that you would remember the it was also attached to their private parts? Remember it being attached to their earlobes and not to their private parts?

MR NETSHIVALE: I have witnessed that, regarding the earlobes.

MS MTANGA: Mr Netshivale, as the person who was involved in torturing these people, which method do you regard was most effective in enabling you to get information you wanted when you were torturing these people?

MR NETSHIVALE: The electric shock and the wet bag.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga. Mr Van Rensburg, do you have any re-examination of the witness?

MR VAN RENSBURG: There's no re-examination, thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Van Rensburg. Judge Khampepe, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman, do you have any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Netshivale, did General Ramaligela or anybody else place any limitations as to the methods that you were to use when interrogating people?

MR NETSHIVALE: No, there were no limitations.

ADV BOSMAN: At the time when you participated, did you believe that these people were able to give information in regard to the bombing of the police station?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, what I heard was that they were talking about how it was bombed but, when it came to documentation, we didn't have access to what was being written.

ADV BOSMAN: So on what basis did you participate?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, it was because I was being given orders.

ADV BOSMAN: Do I understand you correctly then, that you did not have real reason to believe that they could give information?

MR NETSHIVALE: Sorry, could you repeat the question, please.

ADV BOSMAN: Do I understand you correctly, that you did not really have reason to believe that they could give information?

MR NETSHIVALE: Could you repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question is you said that you were not part of the investigating team into the bomb blast that took place at Sibasa, is that correct?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You were merely as an outsider, as it were, to that investigation, invited to assist in interrogating certain people who were suspects in that investigation?

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes, it is true.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't have the information regarding the progress of the investigation?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, I didn't have that information.

CHAIRPERSON: So you yourself were not in a position, you yourself, to determine whether the people were lying or not?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, I didn't know whether they were the right people or were merely being suspected.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman.

ADV BOSMAN: So what you are saying, it was ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

ADV BOSMAN: The orders were your only basis for participating?

MR NETSHIVALE: I was merely asked to assist during the interrogation.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, that answers it.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: With the leave of the Chair, if I can put one question which is a question to clarify what you've just stated flowing what has been put to you by my colleague, Adv Bosman. You've stated that you were not given any limitation by Mr Ramaligela on how you were to assault the suspects? There were no limits on how you were to assault these suspects and it is your evidence flowing from the questions but to you by Ms Mtanga that the most effective method of extracting information from suspects in your opinion was that of an electric shock and the wet bag method.

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes. That is what I'm saying, yes ...(intervention).

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I'm still coming with my question. I'm still coming with a question. My question is, knowing that the electric shock and the wet bag method was the more effective method in extracting information from the suspect and having participated in these assaults solely for purposes of extracting information with regard to the bombing at Sibasa police station and having now heard your evidence, that no limitations were placed on you on how you were to assault the suspects, why did you chose what you would, in your opinion, regard as a soft method on the suspects? You only slapped them.

MR NETSHIVALE: It is because - as a junior officer, I hadn't been given the order to use the wet bag or electric shock. As I've already indicated that I can't even tell you in what form the bag was. It may have been protected or covered by a cloth, I wasn't given the equipment to use, only the senior people were using the equipment while I was just assisting.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: What could have prevented you to apply the electrodes on the suspects concerned?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, I don't know. I wasn't instructed to use the equipment.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: But you were not instructed to slap either, were you?

MR NETSHIVALE: I wasn't given that instruction either.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. Your instructions were to assault with a view to obtaining information.

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes, it is true.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yet you chose only to slap and not to apply any electrode on any other part of the body, even though you knew that that was the most effective method?

MR NETSHIVALE: If I had been given those equipment, I could have used them but I wasn't given them to use.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Who should have given you the equipment?

MR NETSHIVALE: Well, the senior people.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Mr Ramaligela?

MR NETSHIVALE: Mr Managa. Well, they didn't give me.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Were those the only persons that instructed you in assaulting the four persons that you've alluded to?

MR NETSHIVALE: They are the people I can remember, they were the ones who playing a major role.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Van Rensburg, any questions arising out of the questions that have been put by Members of the Panel?

MR VAN RENSBURG: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG

MS MTANGA: Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Meyer?

MR MEYER: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MEYER

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: I just want to bring this information to the attention of the Committee. On page 72 of the bundle, there is an affidavit of Mr Netshivale where he mentions other victims' names that he has not given evidence on.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that the reason why so I can gather is because it was restricted to the Sibasa bombing incident.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, if I may be allowed to, one of those victims who have not been mentioned, Mr Cavella is here and I do not have any instructions from him. Mr Cavella.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Yes, his name also on page 72, at the bottom.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Is he also involved in those who are arrested in connection with the bombing of Sibasa police station?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I've not met with him so I don't know what his position is.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, can I ask a question?

MS MTANGA: Mr Netshivale, under what circumstances was Mr Cavella tortured by you, because he has indicated that he was also one of the people you personally tortured.

MR NETSHIVALE: His name is was mentioned because there was a time in which he was taken to the office for assault. I don't think it had anything to do with the bombing of the police station.

MS MTANGA: Are you also seeking amnesty in respect of the assault that you carried out on him?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: No, Ms Mtanga.

MR NETSHIVALE: Yes. He doesn't seem to have been involved in the bombing of the police station.

MS MTANGA: Okay, thank you, Mr Chairperson.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Whilst we're on this issue, Ms Mtanga ...(end of side A of tape)

... and Miranseni amongst others, were implicated. Were Section 19.4 notices served?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I don't have 72(a) on my bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Judge Khampepe is privileged, neither does Adv Bosman or myself have 72(a).

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Mr van Rensburg, who afforded me this privilege? I seem to be the only one privileged with this information.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Chair. ...(intervention)

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Were these not documents that were given during our sitting in Tzaneen?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Ja, that is correct. I can confirm. You can see page 72 is the same one as included in the bundle, but the affidavit is incomplete.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Is incomplete.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And therefore I requested it to be added as well.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, yes. And did you also afford Ms Mtanga a copy of the documents that you gave us?

MR VAN RENSBURG: It was in fact received through her office and faxed from Cape Town if I remember correctly.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I would imagine, because I think what seemed to have been a problem ...(indistinct) is that the affidavit as included in our bundle, was incomplete, it did not include the 2nd and the third page of the affidavit.

MR VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And these two documents came from our office, so they were not actually given by you at our last sitting? It is a document that Ms Mtanga should be having in her possession.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, after I started consulting with the applicant I noticed that there's two pages missing from the bundle. Page 72(a) and 72(b) represent those two missing pages.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. Ms Mtanga, in the event that they have not been notified, could you also proceed to make sure that they are then notified in terms of Section ...(indistinct)?

MS MTANGA: I will do so, Chairperson.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions arising out of what Ms Mtanga has raised now?

MR MEYER: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MEYER

MR VAN RENSBURG: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MEYER

CHAIRPERSON: That then concludes the testimony of Mr Netshivale. Thank you, Mr Netshivale, you may stand down now. Mr Van Rensburg? Mr Van Rensburg, are you calling any further witnesses?

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR VAN RENSBURG: No further witnesses will be called, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that then conclude the cases of the applicants, of all the applicants?

MR MEYER: Indeed so, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I confirm.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I would like to call Doctor Farisani as a witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly. Will he be testifying from where he's sitting at the moment?

MS MTANGA: I think that should be the position, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Could we please have your full names?

CHINOANE SIMON FARISANI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms Mtanga.

EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Dr Farisani, you've heard the evidence of all the five applicants and, I would like you to put evidence before this Committee on the electrical shocks that were applied to you, specifically the electrical shocks that were applied on your private parts and all the assaults that were carried on you on your private parts by the applicants.

DR FARISANI: On 23 November 1981, at Masisi police station, Mr Ramaligela came accompanied by at least two other people. One of those was a woman whose name I do not know and another was a so-called terrorist whose name I do not even know till today and I think there was another police - Security Police person. Mr Ramaligela interrogated me in the station commander's office. And when he became unsatisfied with my verbal statement, he threatened me in several ways. He said he's aware that I would have preached a dangerous sermon at Chipiwa's funeral if I had not been detained. But another thing he said was that he would go beyond all the torture methods used on me previously in my earlier detentions by crushing my private parts to entertain the woman who was travelling with him. This he did not disclose to you, your Worship. On 25 November, same year ...(intervention)

MS MTANGA: Dr Farisani, I may just interfere, did Mr Ramaligela actually do something to crush your private parts?

DR FARISANI: Yes, on 4 January 1982 and 5 January 1982, respectively at Masisi and Sibasa ...(indistinct) torture centre, he tried hard to achieve that goal. On the 4th, amongst other torture methods, he and Managa and Rambuda forced me on my back and forced me to raise my legs and Ramaligela personally jumped on my private parts. He made it clear he wanted to crush my manhood once and for all. Further attempts were to no avail because every time he jumped I rolled. On 5 January, the electric shocks started with the earlobes, they moved to the toes and to the thighs and ultimately to my private parts. I did show the electric marks on my private parts to several people. Former magistrate Samuel Makige and Chandama did see that, the doctors at Chilitsini Hospital, I did show them the electric shock marks, especially on my testicles. I did report this to the International Red Cross team that visited me at the hospital. I did report this, amongst others to the then attorney-general. And when I laid charges against the Security Police while in hospital, I did mention amongst others this assault on my private parts. Throughout my life, since that experience, I did not fail to mention this atrocious attack. Your Worship, in my three books, especially in this one I have here, 'Diary From a South African Prison' written for the first time in 1985 in German, and later, '87, in English, I describe all the tortures. The Security Police note themselves they did interrogate me why I did write this book. So, in conclusion, to cut a long story short, it is the most painful, atrocious lie and a very serious conspiracy among the Security Police to deny their deliberate focus on private parts as one of the most effective ways of achieving whatever intended goals they had. My story would rest here on the story of private parts.

MS MTANGA: Dr Farisani, just one question. On the methods of torture that were carried out on you, what would you regard as the most excruciating one?

CHAIRPERSON: We're talking about in relation to this incidence.

MS MTANGA: Sibasa incidence.

CHAIRPERSON: The Sibasa ...(intervention)

MS MTANGA: In relation to the tortures carried out on you.

CHAIRPERSON: ...- the detention, your detention following the Sibasa incidence, the police station incidence.

DR FARISANI: In humility, your Worship, I will address only that. I did testify before the Human Rights Violations Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we do have a transcript of that testimony before us.

DR FARISANI: Thank you. Among the most atrocious methods they did not mention, beginning at Masisi, was a direct threat to my life. On 25 November, Mr Ramaligela in the company of others like Nesamari and Managa, they interrogated me the whole day. At the end of that interrogation, they provided me with stationery to write farewell to my bishop, my family and everybody and made it very clear that they wanted to kill me and throw my body in Mozambique. I almost wrote but decided not to, the threats to torture me slowly until I die did come on 4 January but, some few methods they didn't mention, Managa, Ramaligela and Rambuda who's name was never mentioned by them here, Mr Rambuda, they did not mention literally banging my head against the wall. It was terrible. They did not tell you how they pulled my hair and my beard. They did not tell you how they lifted me, threw me into the air to fall on the concrete floor. They mentioned sticks but they forgot to mention chairs. And it's a said chapter that they said there were light injuries. Coming to 5 January, they ignored a few other critical things which were very important in that process. Mr Managa should have admitted that he told me as I entered the torture chamber, that nobody enters this room and goes out alive unless he says and does what we want. Both should have told you too that they used the death of my very close friend Isaac Mohape to send chills down my spine.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Isaac? If you could repeat the surname, Isaac?

DR FARISANI: Isaac Chipiwa Mohape who was tortured and died within two days of his detention. To intimated me they boasted of how he screamed and what he said before he died.

MS MTANGA: Dr Farisani, the Mr Mohape you're referring to, was he arrested for the Sibasa police station bombing?

DR FARISANI: Yes, he was arrested in connection with the bombing and I was dean and deputy bishop of the Church then and, amongst the things they feared was that I would preach a dangerous sermon at his funeral which is true, I would have preached one of my most dangerous sermons.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Farisani, approximately when did Mr Isaac Mohape die?

DR FARISANI: He was detained on 12, if I'm not mistaken, of October 1981. And I heard of his death on the 14th of October while I was addressing graduation in Natal. When I came back, I got messages indirectly that I should not go to comfort his family. I went twice and on 18 November, 15 minutes after I came back from praying with his widow and with his bereaved mother, the Security Police came and picked me up. Now, back to the methods of torture at Vembe, they failed to mention critic people who made my pain even worse. The late sergeant Makgato who mocked and ridiculed me throughout the torture. They failed to mention, amongst others, the name of Mr Matjena who ridiculed me tremendously throughout the process. But what critic they forget, the name of Col Kruger who walked into the torture chamber, found me naked and handcuffed to the back, sitting in the water mixed with blood and, he looked at me and grinned and smile. And he said to me 'Dean, I never thought I would see you under these circumstances in my life.' And I'm surprised that they forget these critic names.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was Col Kruger? What was his position?

DR FARISANI: He was a Col and a member of the Security Branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Of the Venda ...(intervention)

DR FARISANI: In Venda. They forget this man played a very important role in this torture and detention.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, may I find out what role he played specifically, this Col Kruger?

DR FARISANI: In my case, he's one of those who used to occasionally interrogate me even before I was detained. And during the torture he came to mock me and he's one of those, I think if I'm not mistaken, who on 8 February 1982, together with - their names they forget conveniently, captain Bezuidenhout who tried to take me to the Magistrate Court and on that day I saw some of my colleagues around the Magistrate Court but, after that, Col Kruger decided I'm not going to go into that court and he took me to Mathatshe or Venda Central Prison. He played a critical role in hospital because he together with Gerson Ramaburana, after I laid charges against the police, they came to intimidate me and force me to suspend the charges until further notice. And made it very clear to me that unless I withdrew the charges, they would be forced to chose between me and their Security Police. And the choice was obvious. What's also critic is the conspiracy to deny the extent of injuries. So summarise my own injuries, when I landed at Chilitsini Hospital on 7 January, your Worship, my head was this swollen and Gabriel Ramushwana saw it. Ramaligela, Managa, Nesamari, they saw it. My eyes were this swollen and red with blood. Literally, your Worship, I was breathing through my ears, my mouth was swollen. Your Worship, if I stood before you there, you can still see marks on my knees, there were deep wounds into which I could put the tips of my fingers. And the Security Police must tell you what they did with my medical records ...(indistinct) in hospital where I spent all together 106 days. The X-ray copies would tell you a story what happened to my ribs. During that time, Mr ...(indistinct) would tell the papers that I was in hospital because I had a headache. So, I'm not surprised at this minimising of the injuries that we went through. The station commander, Mr Rambuda, who I saw is here. He helped nurse my wounds when I was at Sibasa police station. So, the intensity of the torture was such that my treatment did not only end at Chilitsini, your Worship. In recuperation I went to the Western Cape, my wife remembers me collapsing at night and being rushed to Victoria Hospital. I went to Groote Schuur Hospital as follow up to electric shock treatment. At Venda Central Prison, when I collapsed, my colleagues are here like Chipiwa Mahumela who helped pressurise the police until I was returned to hospital. Your Worship, I cannot exhaust this story. Now, one thing they must still tell us, when I was rushed to Madimbo Military Hospital, it was after I received my clothes from home and I suspect some poisoning of those clothes because, it happened both at Masisi and at Venda Central Prison, and every time after I received clothes from home, and when I was transferred from Madimbo Military Hospital to Chilitsini Hospital again, I asked the police to take along all the medicines I got from the military ...(intervention)

MS MTANGA: Mr Farisani, if I may just interfere. What had happened to your clothes? What were you suspecting about your clothes?

DR FARISANI: I suspect because you see, when I would be wearing my clothes which I always had, these things didn't happen but, every time I received clothes from home, something would happen.

CHAIRPERSON: Like what?

DR FARISANI: Okay, let us go back to 1 February 1982 as Masisi. I was taking a shower in the cubicle, after I had received clothes from home and worn them. I felt very weak, I felt dizzy, the ordinary police noticed it and they rushed me to Madimbo where I got two injections, one injection on each buttocks. And a gargling liquid and some pills. Come 2 February, I collapsed, my heart palpitated, shortage of breath, I needed water every minute or two. Let me once again thank the local police, were it not for them, I would have died on that spot. And they rushed me back to Madimbo. The doctor came to the van and he said 'Is this the guy who was here yesterday?' The police said yes. He gave me a blue pill and water and said 'Rush him to the nearest hospital.' I remember his words, 'He will...' and he hesitated and said 'He may die.' And I was rushed back to Chilitsini Hospital. Now, when I changed into hospital clothes, life would return to normal. The same when I collapsed at Venda Central Prison. When I got to hospital and changed into hospital clothes, I would feel okay. This suspicion, I must be very honest with you, comes after the stories around the poisoning of Rev Chikane's clothes. And I began to try to understand that the symptoms are quite similar to what I went through.

MS MTANGA: Dr Farisani, have you got any other evidence about methods that were used and the consequences thereof? That were not disclosed by the applicants?

DR FARISANI: Yes. Apart from electric and physical torture, coming to my own case, and I don't want to speak for others but I must mentioned I saw Caviar on, I think it was 8 February who was put in my cell. He was this swollen and that was after he saw me at hospital and tried to follow the police van. Until contrary information, I'll take it it is not true that he was not arrested in connection with the Sibasa police station. Now, let me come back. In my case, amongst other things they used at Sibasa torture centre, they would knee me in the groin. Ramaligela, Managa and others, they would knee me in the groin. They would bring a team of young boys, I think they were Security Police trainees who would come and laugh and mock you. I'm surprised they forget that expert team. Now the other thing they used are handcuffs. You see, I was handcuffed to the back and the handcuffs cut into the flesh, the marks are still visible on my wrists. Now, what's also interesting, and that's why I question their political motives sometimes, Gabriel Ramushwana told you that he doesn't know why I was detained. And what he told you is true. On 7 January 1982, he came to my cell in the company of two youngsters, he sent them out and he said to me 'We know that you innocent in this whole matter. All our good pastors are going to die but look, just write what we want because otherwise you will die.' So partly, the story he told you is true. And also Ramushwana did play a role in the writing of statements, in my first statement, when he came with it for me to sign, I found new paragraphs which I never wrote. Among the paragraphs was the one that said 'Chipiwa Mohape participated in the bombing of the police station.' In spite of all the pains I'd gone through, in spite of all the false confessions I was forced to make, I was not prepared to be accessory to the lie that would justify Isaac Chipiwa Mohape's death. And I resisted. Mr Ramushwana left and came back and said 'Sorry, it was a typing error.' Typing error that brings a new paragraph all together into the statement. There were more paragraphs to which I objected and he told me 'This is enough, we can't remove anything any further. Otherwise it will create problems.'

MS MTANGA: Mr Farisani, have you got any further evidence regarding the methods that were used by the applicants because we want to confine our evidence to that?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: May I ask Dr Farisani, did Mr Ramushwana assault you in any way whatsoever apart from trying to force you to sign a statement which you were not prepared to because it didn't reflect the accurate facts?

DR FARISANI: Thank you, your Worship. At the time when I could see, that is without the canvas bag, Ramushwana did not physically touch me, but his voice together with that of Col Kruger and other White officers whose names were never revealed here, I can say physically he was present on the premises but he never touched me.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Was he ever present when you were assaulted by other police officers?

DR FARISANI: On the premises, yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: No ...(intervention)

DR FARISANI: Inside the torture room, I'm not sure because much of the time I couldn't see. My head was covered. But occasionally when they removed the hood, there were other people I could see, some of their names I've mentioned.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You may proceed, Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Dr Farisani, does that conclude your evidence or is there something else you want to add?

DR FARISANI: Yes, the best I want to say is that as you may know, my mother is seated over there. She went through tremendous pain and harassment. My wife and children, my wife is over there, she went through tremendous pain, the children still suffer from the consequences of not only the Sibasa detention but of all the detentions we went through. You may be aware that cumulatively all those detentions led to my staying at the ...(indistinct) torture centre for treatment for almost a year in 1987. The most painful thing for me, I am a pastor by call, I support this act around reconciliation, I supported the processes of the law that you are implementing wholeheartedly. But, in spite of some of the statements that they are sorry, they regret, the evidence on the floor hides critical elements of information. Perhaps I should conclude by saying what I'm saying to you I'm not saying here for the sake of amnesty or being against amnesty. My books, 'Diary From South African Prison,' 'Justice in My Tears,' it addresses Isaac Mohape, it address Nesamari, my congregate and others. The book 'In Transit' addresses these issues. There's a video, 'Torture of a South African Pastor' produced by the Lutheran ...(indistinct) Federation in Geneva. There's another video in America, 'A Remarkable Man' and another one, 'Torture, the Shadow of a Beast' and also the information that the police settled out of court in our case, I know what it means but I also know what it doesn't mean. Now, if amnesty is based on the truth, I don't think we've heard the whole truth.

MS MTANGA: Does that conclude your evidence, Mr Farisani?

DR FARISANI: Thank you very much, yes.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Dr Farisani. I see that it's now 13h00, I think this would be a convenient time to take the lunch adjournment before I give an opportunity to the legal representatives for the applicants to ask some questions. We'll now take the lunch adjournment and if we could aim to recommence at 13h45, please. We'll take the adjournment until 13h45, thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHINOANE SIMON FARISANI: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) questions to put to Dr Farisani?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEYER: I do, Mr Chairman, thank you. Dr Farisani, do you remember giving evidence before the Human Rights Violations Committee in 1996?

DR FARISANI: I do.

MR MEYER: I here have with me a transcription of your evidence that you gave then and, I've read through it and not once during the evidence before that Committee do you mention anything about your private parts being injured. Can you explain why that is so?

DR FARISANI: The tortures that I went through, the methods that were used were so many and so varied that if I by chance leave one of them, it would only be natural but, if you read my book, 'Diary from a South African Prison' which I published first in Germany in 19 ...(intervention)

MR MEYER: Yes, Dr Farisani, I'm really not interested in your book. What I'm talking about is your evidence before the other Committee. And you, in your evidence-in-chief, refer to this whole question of your private parts as the most atrocious lie which was told by my clients, the applicants. Yet, in 1996, three years ago, you never once mentioned that your private parts were either being jumped upon or that electrical devices were attached to it.

DR FARISANI: I repeat, Mr Ramaligela kicked my private parts.

MR MEYER: Yes, I know, you've said that. What I want you to explain to me is why didn't you tell the Human Rights Violations Committee about it?

DR FARISANI: I repeat, the torture methods used were so many that if at one given instance or on one day I forget one of the methods, it's only human and natural but the fact remains that in documents preceding 1996 there's written evidence to the effect that I was tortured on those parts. And the people I talked to after those tortures, including the police and lawyers got that information including the charges I laid against Mr Ramaligela and others, included that kind of torture.

MR MEYER: Dr Farisani ...(intervention)

DR FARISANI: And they know that.

MR MEYER: ... in your evidence-in-chief you specifically said that what is most disturbing to you and what you called the most atrocious part of the applicants' evidence is that they left out or denied that they injured your private parts. How on earth is it possible that you can forget to mention anything about it when you gave evidence before?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I think his evidence is that he omitted it, not forgotten it.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think he says forget.

MR MEYER: Let's just get it clear. You told me now that it's natural for a person, because of the varied methods of torture, to forget some, one or more of the methods that were used? Is that correct?

DR FARISANI: It is correct.

MR MEYER: So, are you telling us now that at the stage you gave evidence before the Human Rights Violations Committee, you forgot about the fact that your private parts were injured?

DR FARISANI: I have said the methods were so many, it's not surprising that one would omit one of those methods in a long list of torture. But in their hearts they know the doctors saw that I had been shocked electrically on my private parts and if you look at those medical records yourself for the sake of truly ...(intervention)

MR MEYER: Yes, Dr Farisani, don't refer me to other documents which I don't have in my possession. I'll refer you to page 123 of the bundle which is part of the transcription of your evidence. Mr Chairman, it's about line 23 on that page.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Paragraph 14?

MR MEYER: Yes, just about paragraph 14. And there you said

"Well they tied those electrical on my ears, they poured water, some water just on the floor."

So, you remember that you were being or that you were shocked with electrical devices but you specifically mentioned here that they were attached to your ears.

DR FARISANI: In my statement you will find the word 'Park Station,' it has nothing to do with Johannesburg it is a euphemism for private parts.

MR MEYER: Yes, I'm not referring to that. You in any event didn't say anything about electrodes when you referred to Park Station. You referred here to an instance when you were shocked with electrical devices and you specifically mentioned that they were put or tied to your ears as you put it. Now, how can you remember that you were being shocked or tortured with electricity and still then forget that the electrical devices were also attached to your private parts?

DR FARISANI: I would like you to read the paragraph that has to do with Park Station and when you read that one, it will be clear that it refers to electric shocks that were even applied in the area I call Park Station.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, are you saying, Dr Farisani, that your use of Park Station on this page, page 123, is a euphemism for private parts?

DR FARISANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So, you say

"Well, I realised that I had arrived at Park Station."

Now how can it in that context refer to private parts?

DR FARISANI: Yes. When I referred to Park Station, I was referring to, euphemistically, to the private parts. Because what they did, they left my pants on and used the urine hole on the underpants to connect the electric appliances.

CHAIRPERSON: But, this term Park Station, as a euphemism for private parts, is that well-known? I must admit it's the first time I've ever heard of a person's parts being referred to as Park Station. As far as you're concerned, was it well-known or was it your own private euphemism?

DR FARISANI: I've used several geographical names like Phumbatha, like Phiphedi and Park Station, referring to the most sacred - the furthest place that you can go to in this part of the world. If you would say you are travelling by train to Park Station, it means you have reached the destination.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, so, did you without the explanation because I don't see there's any explanation in this testimony of yours before the HRV Committee explaining the meaning of Park Station as used by yourself. Did you just anticipate or expect that the Committee Members at that hearing would have understood it to have meant your private parts?

DR FARISANI: I had expected the general community to understand and had hoped that the Committee would also understand. Perhaps I should have explained at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

DR FARISANI: But I'm very honest to say that's how I used the word Park Station.

ADV BOSMAN: If I might just speak up on the Chairman's question, Dr Farisani, if you look on page 123, you are using the word Park Station in the context of a place there, don't you agree? It reads

"Well, I realised that I had arrived at Park Station, like Park Station, when I arrived there."

On my reading of it you're using it in the context of a place. If you could perhaps enlighten me there, I don't follow your argument that you meant private parts.

DR FARISANI: Thank you very much. I was explaining the tortures that happened to me at Sibasa or Ruvembe torture station. And everything I'm saying in that part of the statement is relating to 5 January 1982. And when they forced me to undress, I say I realised I had reached Park Station. In other words, I had come to the final destination of torture.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR MEYER: So, are you now saying that you used Park Station to indicate the final destination you'd arrived and not as a euphemism for private parts?

DR FARISANI: It means both and the two are not inseparable. It means I've reached the destination, the worst of tortures that Mr Managa and Mr Ramaligela had promised me. And indeed, this was late in the afternoon, they tortured me using different methods from morning to lunch time. And after lunch time, they said 'You'll still see the worst that we can do.' And that's when they transferred the electric wires from the earlobes, from the toes, from the thighs to my private parts. And when that did not illicit the kind of result that wanted, as Mr Ramaligela admitted, same day, then they moved to the boiling kettle method.

MR MEYER: Yes, let's not talk about that now. So, you're saying now that when you refer here to Park Station, that was at the stage after they had already tried the earlobes and the toes and what have you, then they went and they attached it to your private parts, that is where the Park Station comes in?

DR FARISANI: Yes.

MR MEYER: But then why do you mention later on the part that I read to you

"Well, they tied those electrical devices on my ears."

And this you mention after you mentioned Park Station, but now you tell us that Park Station was, or the private parts session was after the ears and the toes?

DR FARISANI: Basically these people, as they by their own admission, they tortured me that whole day on and off and they would pull these wires from point A to point B, point C to point D. It's not as if they were just specifically methodological.

MR MEYER: Dr Farisani, I put it to you that you're telling lies to this Panel. At no stage where you used the word Park Station do you mention anything about electrodes being attached and, the only time where you talk about the electrical devices is on page 123 where you specifically say that they were put onto your ears.

DR FARISANI: The whole truth is the torture squad, by their own admission, used electrical devices on the parts I've mentioned, including the private parts.

MR MEYER: No, no, they never admitted that they used that method on your private parts. That's the whole problem. In your evidence before the HRV Committee, your evidence corresponds with what they say, the electrical devices were attached to your ears. And now today, you come and tell us no, they were also attached to your private parts. Something which you've never mentioned before.

DR FARISANI: I repeat that they tortured my private parts.

MR MEYER: And another thing which you said in evidence-in-chief is that they also or Mr Ramaligela jumped on your private parts, do you remember saying that?

DR FARISANI: Yes, he did.

MR MEYER: Yes. This is another thing which was never mentioned before the HRV Committee, what's your explanation for that one?

DR FARISANI: If that has been omitted, it is nothing more than an omission but the fact of the matter is that Ramaligela jumped on my private parts at Masisi.

MR MEYER: Dr Farisani, I still can't understand how it is possible that something which you referred to here today as the most atrocious part of the evidence of the applicants, namely the assault on your private parts, you just omitted three years ago when your memory should have been fresher than today.

DR FARISANI: I repeat what I've said before ...(intervention)

MR MEYER: Yes, you cannot give an explanation, is that correct?

DR FARISANI: I've given you an explanation which you find difficult to understand and to accept.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Mr Meyer, have you had recourse to page 122 of the transcript in his evidence which is not, I should concede, crystal clear, but which does address the issue of dancing up and down? That is Mr Ramaligela, I think it's incorrectly spelt out but there is a reference to Mr Ramaligela having danced up and down and saying he wants to destroy his family.

MR MEYER: Yes, I've noticed that, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You have.

MR MEYER: Yes, but my submission is that it's got nothing to do with his private parts whatsoever as I read it.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, shouldn't you probably draw his attention to that and probably get him to explain what he meant because that to me is not clear, I don't know what he understands by, I mean what he wanted to say when he says somebody was dancing up and down and saying he wanted to destroy his family. I don't know how you can dance up and down and saying he wanted to destroy his family, I don't know how you can dance up and down someone wanting to destroy his family and what family was he referring to? I would be happy if that can be canvassed to him.

MR MEYER: I'll ask the question, Mr Chairman. Just have a look on page 122, Dr Farisani. Do you have it before you?

DR FARISANI: Yes, I do.

MR MEYER: You mention there that Ramaligela and I take it that that refers to Ramaligela was

"Just dancing up and down and saying 'I want to destroy your family.'"

The Panel would like to know what you meant by that.

DR FARISANI: It means that Mr Ramaligela, after together with his team forcing me on my back, raising my legs, he jumped up onto my private parts saying 'I want to destroy your manhood. You will never function with your wife again. And you'll feel like a small bull and we're going to destroy these cells of yours which make you feel like a little bull.' And he tried over and over again and I frustrated him because every time he tried, I would roll over.

MR MEYER: You never mentioned that either. Are you satisfied, Judge Khampepe?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, that has been clarified because I couldn't relate the dancing up and down to the destruction of his family. If his family meant his manhood, I now understand in what context the use of the word family was made in that sentence.

MR MEYER: I see. If I can just have a minute, Mr Chairman. So, Dr Farisani, can I then assume that your explanation for not mentioning the whole thing about your private parts to the HRV Committee was that you simply omitted it?

DR FARISANI: It was an omission and I think I was speaking in Venda that day, I do not know how the quality of translation was like, reading by what I have read, the quality is quite poor, translating my Venda into English but I've said there's collaborative information of many people to whom I've shared this information about my private parts, including the police themselves.

MR MEYER: Yes, well, that ...(intervention)

DR FARISANI: So, it's not as if I created something this morning.

MR MEYER: ...information is not before us. Well, for what it's worth and I think it's been already testified to in the applicants' evidence-in-chief, they deny ever touching your private parts or injuring them in any way.

DR FARISANI: They did not only deny that, I don't think they admitted placing the wires on my toes and on my thighs. It's apparently very embarrassing for the applicants to admit interfering with what in Venda is called 'Butzhimo,' the most sacred part of a person's body, his private parts. But all the people I've talk to since my torture till today, they know that this evidence was alive and as existing as from the days of that torture.

MR MEYER: You've said that on 25 November, I think it was, you were given stationery to write a farewell to your family or something to that effect, is that correct?

DR FARISANI: To my family, my bishop, my friends and relatives.

MR MEYER: Now, you refer to 'they' gave it to you, can you be more specific, can you remember who did that?

DR FARISANI: That day, Mr Ramaligela, Mr Managa, Mr Nesamari were present, there might have been others but those three I remember specifically.

MR MEYER: Yes, present when you were assaulted?

DR FARISANI: 25 November did not involve assault, it involved interrogation at the end of which they were not satisfied with my statement and they decided enough is enough, 'You're no longer fit to leave, now to exonerate ourselves, we want to kill you, you chose,' Mr Ramaligela said ...(intervention)

MR MEYER: Dr Farisani, just answer my question, who gave you the stationery to write the message?

DR FARISANI: Mr Ramaligela in the company of his colleagues.

MR MEYER: I want to put it to you that Mr Ramaligela and Mr Managa will deny that they were involved in that exercise.

DR FARISANI: It's their democratic right to deny but it remains the truth

MR MEYER: Is it correct that you were arrested on other occasions as well besides this incident with regard to the Sibasa police station?

DR FARISANI: It is true but I do not know what it has to do with this application for amnesty which ...(intervention)

MR MEYER: Yes, please don't ...(intervention)

DR FARISANI: ...understood ...(indistinct) to the Sibasa bombing.

MR MEYER: The Panel will decide about the relevance, Dr Farisani. Because you mentioned the names of other people like Makgato, Matsena I think ...(intervention)

DR FARISANI: Matsena.

MR MEYER: Matsena and Col Kruger. Is it correct that these people were not involved with regard to the Sibasa police station attack, this was a different arrest or incident where you were involved?

DR FARISANI: I referred to those names in connection with my interrogation on 5 January 1982 and it is as certain as I sit here that those names I mentioned were involved on those processes around my torture on the said date. Mr Matsena, including Mr Makgato and the other names I've mentioned already.

MR MEYER: All right, well, be that as it may, they are not involved in this application anyway. All right, and then you also mentioned other methods which were used, one of which was they would, and I take it you refer to the applicants, they would use their knees and hit you in the groin with their knees, do you remember saying that?

DR FARISANI: Yes, I do.

MR MEYER: Did you also, when you said they would hit you with their knees in the groin, did that also refer to your private parts?

DR FARISANI: The groin, the knee, no, they did not knee my private parts, they kneed my groin.

MR MEYER: Okay. May I just have a minute, Mr Chairman. Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have nothing further.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEYER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Meyer. Mr Van Rensburg, do you have questions you'd like to ask the witness?

MR VAN RENSBURG: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any re-examination, Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No re-examination, Chairperson, thank you.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Judge Khampepe, would you like to ask the witness any questions?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I have no questions to put to Mr Farisani.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank you, Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Dr Farisani. That then concludes your testimony.

DR FARISANI: Thank you very much, your Worship.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson, the next witness that I will call is Rev Phoshwana.

CHAIRPERSON: What are your full names, please?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Reverend, Ms Mtanga.

EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson. Rev Phoshwana, I would like to request you to confine your evidence to the methods that were used on you by the applicants and which they have denied having used, that is the applying of electrical shocks and the pulling of your hair. And will you also give the names of the people who were involved in these methods? Can you please answer?

REV PHOSHWANA: Thank you very much. I was detained on 5 January. On that very same evening, I was given blank papers by Mr Ramaligela to write the so-called confession. The following morning, on 6 January, Mr Ramaligela came in the company of two other police people. And then he took me to the interrogation office and took me into the office where there was Mr Ramushwana and, then Mr Ramushwana asked whether in those papers which I was supposed to write confession, I had written the confession. And Mr Ramaligela said 'Hy het kak geskryf.' And then he tore that paper.

I was taken into another office, when I entered that office the first person I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you proceed, Reverend, when you say he tore the paper, did he read what was on before he tore it or did he tear it without having reference to the contents?

REV PHOSHWANA: I took it that he read because he took those papers from my police cell so, we draw from the police cell into the office, interrogation office.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you may proceed.

REV PHOSHWANA: And then when I was taken into that interrogation office, at first glance, when I entered the office, there were more than nine police people in that office. And Mr Netshivale was one of them, and he was the first one to lay his hands on my head and pulled my hair. The rest followed, pulling my hair, my beard and puberty hair. And that was the beginning of the ordeal which after lunch, included even torturing me in my private parts where they attached electric devices and I remember vividly clear when Mr Ramaligela commented that 'Now we are doing this, you will no more give bags to the Communists.'

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, who said that? Mr Ramaligela?

REV PHOSHWANA: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Now who amongst the people who were present during this particular torture tortured or touched you on your private parts?

REV PHOSHWANA: I would not specifically say it's so and so because what happened is that after beating me physically, and handcuffed my hands behind my back, they put the canvas bag over my face. But the voices I could hear were that of Mr Ramaligela and Mr Nesamari and Mr Managa.

CHAIRPERSON: So when this, we'll call it the electric shock treatment, was applied to you, did you actually have a bag over you face at that time?

REV PHOSHWANA: Precisely.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Prior to this bag being pulled over your face, who had been in that interrogating room?

REV PHOSHWANA: Mr Netshivale was there whom I remember vividly clear because he was the first one who laid his hands on my head and pulled my hair.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes?

REV PHOSHWANA: And Mr Nesamari was also there. The late John Managa was also there and quite a number of other including Mr Matsena.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes?

REV PHOSHWANA: Mr Thakalane and Mr Makgato.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And was Mr Ramaligela there as well?

REV PHOSHWANA: He's the one who took me into the office ...(intervention)

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: There?

REV PHOSHWANA: ...interrogation office, yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And how soon after some hair had been pulled out of your body was this bag pulled over your head?

REV PHOSHWANA: It was after I'd been order to do some press ups, frog jumping which Mr Ramaligela admitted and demonstrated at Tzaneen and also made to sit on an imaginary chair and stand on the wall with my head down. I can't remember exactly how soon but it was after those, what were called preliminary warm-ups.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: So, it was a continuous chain of events?

REV PHOSHWANA: Precisely.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Thank you. You may ...(intervention)

REV PHOSHWANA: Because I was tortured for three days.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, you may continue, Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Rev Phoshwana, what injuries did you suffer as a result of these methods applied on you?

REV PHOSHWANA: Thank you. I had 25 scars all over my body including the tip of my penis and the testicles which I showed the doctor at Chilitsini and then also I injured my hands with the handcuffs, the scars which are still visible, even now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Your hands or your wrists? Your wrists?

REV PHOSHWANA: The wrists, yes. And all these 25 scars were noted by doctor at Chilitsini.

MS MTANGA: You have heard the evidence ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have to - sorry Ms Mtanga, if I may while you're still on this point, were you confined to hospital at all? For treatment?

REV PHOSHWANA: No. No.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you treated and discharged? Given medicine?

REV PHOSHWANA: I was not even given medicine, I was taken to Chilitsini Hospital by instruction of the magistrate after I appeared in court and told the magistrate that the statement I was forced to signed was duly induced from me through torture. So that's when I was taken there for the doctor to note all those things.

CHAIRPERSON: You were basically referred there by the State?

REV PHOSHWANA: Yes, that's right.

CHAIRPERSON: And so, you hadn't gone to the doctor on your own volition, your own private doctor for treatment or whatever?

REV PHOSHWANA: I didn't have access to the private doctor because I was under solitary confinement.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson. Rev Phoshwana, you have heard the evidence of the applicants that they deny having pulled your hair from the private parts and they also deny that they applied electrical shocks on your private parts. What do you say to this?

REV PHOSHWANA: It saddens me because I had expected that they will say the truth and nothing else but the truth. As I said, Mr Netshivale was the first one to lay his hands on my head and that's why his face never left my face because it was my first time to see how a human being can pull somebody's hair in that manner which is so cruel, beard and puberty hair.

And the attachment of electric shocks on my private parts, I'm not making it up. I believe the medical doctors will attest to that because the doctors noted those scars.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: But you can't say precisely who attached any of those electrical devices to ...(intervention)

REV PHOSHWANA: It's only 12 January, on 12 January when I was not covered that I saw Mr Nesamari attaching literally before I even passed out again.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say attached, attached it to your private parts ...(intervention)

REV PHOSHWANA: ...(indistinct)

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: ...not your earlobe or anything.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: To your private parts?

REV PHOSHWANA: That's right.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, and who was present when he was making those attachments ...(intervention)

REV PHOSHWANA: He was with the late John Managa.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Were they the only people involved on 12 January?

REV PHOSHWANA: On the ...(indistinct), those are the two who were present.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MS MTANGA: Rev Phoshwana, is there anything you would like to add to your evidence regarding the methods?

REV PHOSHWANA: The other method which may not be related to the private parts was the elbowing on 5 January when I was transported from Tshakhuma to the police station, Mr Managa and Mr Ramaligela were always elbowing me because I had been sandwiched in their van.

Secondly, when I was tortured they also referred to the fact that if I don't co-operate, I will drown in a bucket and follow Chipiwa Mohape who drowned in that particular bucket.

MS MTANGA: Is there anything else that you want to add to your evidence?

REV PHOSHWANA: Unless if there are questions.

MS MTANGA: Does this conclude your evidence then?

REV PHOSHWANA: Yes.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Reverend. Mr Meyer, do you have any questions you'd like to ask the witness?

MR MEYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, yes I do.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEYER: Reverend, you also testified before the Human Rights Violations Committee, is that correct?

REV PHOSHWANA: That's correct.

MR MEYER: Now, I have exactly the same problem with your evidence as I had with that of Dr Farisani. If you look at page 143 of the bundle.

REV PHOSHWANA: Yes sir.

MR MEYER: You mention there that the electric shock treatment was used on you and you say then, it's the third line

"Then they clipped electrodes on my earlobes."

REV PHOSHWANA: Correct.

MR MEYER: Why didn't you say they were attached to your private parts?

REV PHOSHWANA: If it's not mentioned, it could be omission. But I remember giving this statement to the person who was taking the statement from me before these matters were brought to the hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if you say it was an omission, Reverend, could you explain how you could of omitted it or why it was omitted? Was it omitted for any specific reason or was it just because you forgot to mention it.

REV PHOSHWANA: It could have been omitted by the translator.

CHAIRPERSON: So what are you saying? Are you saying that you did mention it or you can't remember whether you mentioned it? What is the situation? Or you were too embarrassed to mention it? That's what I'm trying to get at. You say it was an omission, I want to say 'Well, why was it an omission?'

REV PHOSHWANA: Embarrassment was not part of giving this evidence. What could have happened is that when I gave this evidence or the statement down to the people who were investigating before the actual hearing commenced, it could have been omitted after that or in the hearing but I mentioned it when the people who were taking statements wrote it down.

CHAIRPERSON: People from the TRC?

REV PHOSHWANA: That's right.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You see, what Mr Meyer is having a problem with is the fact that the transcript of your evidence before the Human Rights Violations Committee specifically mentions electrodes having been clipped on your earlobes and they do not refer to such electrodes having clipped on your private parts, now that is specifically omitted. No evidence refers to such electrodes having been clipped on any other part of your body other than the earlobes. That's the problem that he has and he wants you to explain why, if you say you stated that kind of evidence before the Human Rights Violations Committee, that is not contained in the transcript that is before us which only refers to such electrodes having been clipped on your earlobes only.

REV PHOSHWANA: That is what I'm saying.

CHAIRPERSON: I think just to put it more succinctly, if one can remember electrodes being attached to the earlobe, one would think that one would also remember it being attached to one's private parts. Now you mention it being attached to your earlobe, how then could the omission have come about when you make no mention at all of it being attached to your private parts? In fact, one would probably think the opposite, one would think that if you were to forget anything, you'd forget the earlobe before the private parts.

REV PHOSHWANA: That's what I'm saying that it could have been an omission, the fact that I mentioned it to the investigators. I might have took it for granted that that statement has been given to the Amnesty Hearing when they sat in October. But I'm 100% sure that I gave it to the investigators.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Did you give a statement to the investigators or are you saying this was omitted probably when your evidence was being translated into English, when you were giving your evidence in Venda before the Human Rights Violations Committee? I'm getting a little confused. Was there a written statement that was submitted prior to this hearing taking place which was taken down by TRC investigators?

REV PHOSHWANA: That's right.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And that statement was signed by you.

REV PHOSHWANA: That's right.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And handed over to the TRC and it was pursuant to that statement that you appeared before the Human Rights Violations Committee and gave evidence?

REV PHOSHWANA: That's right.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Meyer?

MR MEYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman. So Reverend, your explanation for also not saying anything about this is also that it was an omission?

REV PHOSHWANA: Correct.

MR MEYER: Well, what a coincidence that both you and Dr Farisani omitted this important piece of evidence.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: May I just find out something, Mr Meyer, from Ms Mtanga? Reference has been made to this statement having been given to the Human Rights Violations Committee which must have formed part of the evidence or the proceedings that took place on 4 October 1996 before the Human Rights Violations Committee. Are you in a position to give us any information, Ms Mtanga, with regard to a written statement that was allegedly made by Rev Phoshwana prior to him giving such evidence before that Committee?

MS MTANGA: Lady Chair, I didn't have this information before Rev Phoshwana testified here today. And I'm not in possession of such a statement. I was only furnished with the Human Rights Violations hearings transcript.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes.

MS MTANGA: But I can make endeavours and see if the ...(indistinct) office can furnish us with a statement and probably fax it to us while you're sitting here.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes.

MS MTANGA: I will try and do so.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You may proceed, Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Rev Phoshwana, I want to put it to you that you are also telling lies to this Panel when you say that your private parts were in any way injured.

REV PHOSHWANA: It's extremely unfortunate that the learned advocate doesn't believe.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the learned advocate is merely representing his clients. His clients have denied that they tortured you by applying electrodes to you private parts and he's doing what advocates should do, putting these clients' versions to you and saying that it didn't take place.

REV PHOSHWANA: Thank you, Mr Chairman. What I'm saying is that he was wrongly briefed by his clients because, what I'm saying is exactly what happened to me and I take it that the learned advocate's clients had even given him the records which the doctors made note of those scars, 25 all of them on my body.

MR MEYER: Reverend, you said that the first person you saw, I think it was on 6 January, when you were taken some office, and you remember the face of the fifth applicant, Mr Netshivale. Is that correct?

REV PHOSHWANA: Yes. That is entering the interrogation office.

MR MEYER: Yes, and he is the one also that pulled your hair and also your pubic hair, is that correct?

REV PHOSHWANA: The first one who laid his hands on my head, the first one, not the only one.

MR MEYER: Yes. And then later on, I just want to get it clear if we're referring to the same incident. You said that you remember other people who were in this office or the room was Nesamari and John Managa and Matsena, is that correct?

REV PHOSHWANA: Yes, and Mr Makgato also.

MR MEYER: Makgato?

REV PHOSHWANA: Yes.

MR MEYER: Okay, I didn't get that. And were they the people who were taking part in the pulling of the hair?

REV PHOSHWANA: Because I was not yet covered, Mr Matsena and Mr Makgato and Thakalane did not pull my hair but the rest did.

CHAIRPERSON: Just mention the two names who didn't.

REV PHOSHWANA: Who didn't is Mr Matsena, Mr Makgato and Mr Thakalane. They are three who didn't because by that time I was not yet covered so I could see.

MR MEYER: Of the people you mentioned, only Mr Nesamari is one of the first four applicants who were involved in that, do I understand you correctly?

REV PHOSHWANA: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Wasn't your evidence that Mr Kruger was also there? No?

REV PHOSHWANA: No.

ADV BOSMAN: Rev Phoshwana, I wonder if you can just clarify this for me. At the beginning of your evidence, you said that Nesamari was the first to lay his hands on me.

REV PHOSHWANA: Netshivale.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes and now you've said that, I think that you said Mtanga was the first one to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think my notes says that Mr Netshivale was the first and that other three persons mentioned he himself said that they didn't do it while he could see but the others did it including Mr Nesamari.

REV PHOSHWANA: Why I said, Mr Nesamari, it was on the 12th.

ADV BOSMAN: Oh, are you referring to two different dates?

REV PHOSHWANA: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, that clarifies it then.

REV PHOSHWANA: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Meyer?

MR MEYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman. All right, well just for the sake of completeness and I mean it's been denied already in the evidence-in-chief, but Mr Nesamari denies that he pulled your pubic hair in any event.

REV PHOSHWANA: I think he was denying it out of shame but that's exactly what happened. He denied it that he even attached electrodes on my private parts on 12 January 1982. It's a pure denial and a lie.

MR MEYER: Is it not possible that some of these - that some people were pulling the hair out of your head and some others were pulling your beard and the others were pulling your pubic hair, was that the situation?

REV PHOSHWANA: Because there was no method that we start with the head, down to the beard and then to the puberty hair, the first person who laid his hands on my head was Mr Netshivale, then the rest followed and they pulled hair all over my body as I mentioned.

So, it was not say 'Okay, well let's start with head, down to the beard and then to the hair.' Puberty hair.

MR MEYER: Yes, well, were they all busy at the same time?

REV PHOSHWANA: They were scrambling, ja.

MR MEYER: Now isn't it possible that you are mistaken and that Mr Nesamari might have pulled your beard or the hair on your head and that someone else was pulling your pubic hair?

REV PHOSHWANA: I'm saying Mr Nesamari, I'm singling him out and the late general Managa for 12 January 1982, that he attached electrodes on my private parts. That's why I'm singling him out.

MR MEYER: So, with regard to the pulling of your pubic hair ...(intervention)

REV PHOSHWANA: He was part of the group.

MR MEYER: But you can't say for certain that he pulled your pubic hair?

REV PHOSHWANA: He did because, the people who didn't I mentioned them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think what Mr Meyer's getting at, you've said there was at a stage what maybe described as a hair pulling frenzy ...(intervention)

REV PHOSHWANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: They were all acting at the same time, pulling hair, at the same time from your head, from your pubic parts, from your - I see you don't have a beard, from your moustache - Did you have a beard ...(intervention)

REV PHOSHWANA: I only cut them out after.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. From your beard. What Mr Meyer is saying is, may it be so that Mr Nesamari, although he pulled your hair, that he didn't pull your pubic hair? He himself, personally?

REV PHOSHWANA: That to me, I did not witness and note down who is pulling my pubic hair because they were scrambling.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. You're saying that he pulled your pubic hair - you're saying he pulled your pubic hair because you're associating him with all your attackers who were pulling your hair. You can't say specifically exactly from what part of your body he pulled hair?

REV PHOSHWANA: All those people I mentioned, that they did not pull my hair, only those three.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

REV PHOSHWANA: Those are the ones who didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

REV PHOSHWANA: But the rest pulled my hair from all over my body, the head, beard and puberty hair. They were scrambling for pulling.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no ...(intervention)

REV PHOSHWANA: So there's no probability that Nesamari could not have pulled either beards or hair or my pubic hair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's what we're saying. But he might not necessarily have pulled your pubic hair, he might have pulled your hair from head and your beard but not your pubic hair.

REV PHOSHWANA: I think I would have seen him had he abstained.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Meyer.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: May I get clarity on one thing, Mr Meyer, with your indulgence?

MR MEYER: Certainly.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You are saying Mr Nesamari was the first to lay his hands on your body?

REV PHOSHWANA: No, Mr Netshivale was the first.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Netshivale was the first?

REV PHOSHWANA: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Thank you, Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Yes but, Reverend, I don't want to labour this point but we're talking about an incident that took place 18 years ago and you are now taken to a place that you're not used to, you must have been in shock, and there is a whole bunch of people starting to attack you by pulling your hair from all over. Is it not possible that you may be mistaken and that Mr Nesamari might have pulled the hair from your head and your beard but did not pull out your pubic hair?

REV PHOSHWANA: Can I say this adage in Venda which will clarify my position? In Venda we say (through interpreter)

"A victim does not forget but the one who has victimised does forget."

So the issue of a shock here in fact imprinted this picture in my memory and my mind that I don't forget and I will never forget. So it is not a shock that might have encouraged me to apply and call for amnesia and say I've forgotten this and that.

MR MEYER: And yet you forget to mention to the HRV Committee that electrodes were attached to your private parts?

REV PHOSHWANA: I hope I made my point very clear, that before I appeared here in October, it was in this very same building, the TRC investigators took the statement down ...(intervention)

MR MEYER: Okay, don't worry, Reverend.

REV PHOSHWANA: Yes.

MR MEYER: We've covered that now. If I can just have a minute, Mr Chairman. Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEYER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Meyer. Mr Van Rensburg, do you have questions you'd like to ask?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Can you just repeat the name of the first person who pulled your hair, Reverend, please?

REV PHOSHWANA: Mr Netshivale.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Pardon?

REV PHOSHWANA: Mr Netshivale.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Have you known Mr Netshivale before that day?

REV PHOSHWANA: No.

MR VAN RENSBURG: It was the very first time that you had seen him?

REV PHOSHWANA: Precisely.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And you only learnt his name afterwards?

REV PHOSHWANA: That's right.

MR VAN RENSBURG: When?

REV PHOSHWANA: It was during my detention before I was released on the first of June 1982.

MR VAN RENSBURG: That you learnt his name?

REV PHOSHWANA: That's right. I think it was precisely on 27 January when they took me to Chaukuma for further investigations. And he was the first one who asked me a question, 'Why are you so happy? What have you dreamed?' Then because I was put in the van together with him and others, then they started talking about the names, then I could attach the names to this face that was imprinted on my memory.

MR VAN RENSBURG: So, this picture of Mr Netshivale pulling your hair was imprinted in your memory, is that correct?

REV PHOSHWANA: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Why did you then omit to mention his name when you testified before the HRV Commission?

REV PHOSHWANA: It could be the same thing, that the statement I gave to the TRC investigators has his name.

MR VAN RENSBURG: You mentioned that there was a lot of policemen simultaneously pulling your hair from all over your body.

REV PHOSHWANA: That's right.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I think the word 'frenzy' was used by yourself.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: By the chair.

REV PHOSHWANA: I used scramble.

CHAIRPERSON: I used the word frenzy.

MR VAN RENSBURG: That is correct, the Chairman used the word frenzy.

REV PHOSHWANA: I used scramble.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes. Okay, now would you then say that it is possible that it is not Mr Netshivale that came to you first to pull out your hair but it was rather a simultaneous attack by several policemen, simultaneously ...(intervention)

REV PHOSHWANA: He was the first one.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Netshivale testified that he also slapped you with the open hands. Can you remember that?

REV PHOSHWANA: Oh yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Why haven't you told this Commission about that?

REV PHOSHWANA: No, I was told to confine myself on the things that these police people have denied.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that the very first point that was put to him by Ms Mtanga was just to concentrate on the disputed parts of the evidence.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I will accept that, thank you, Mr Chairman. Was it during that same day that you were actually slapped by Mr Netshivale as well, on the 5th?

REV PHOSHWANA: I was tortured for solid three days, 6 January, 8 January and 12 January. It's only on 12 January when Mr Netshivale was not present.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Would you then say, and bearing in mind Mr Netshivale had denied that he pulled your hair, apart from that fact, he has told this Commission everything that he has done to you?

REV PHOSHWANA: Yes, the slapping, yes he did. And he admitted that. I didn't see him attaching electrodes because I was covered with a bag, with a canvas bag but the fact that he refused that he pulled my hair, it may be that he's also refusing that he attached electrodes on my earlobes and parts of my body. But that I can't hold him responsible because I was covered.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Van Rensburg. Ms Mtanga, do you have any re-examination?

MS MTANGA: No re-examination, Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Judge Khampepe, no questions? Adv Bosman, do you have any questions? Thank you very much, Reverend, that then concludes your testimony and you may stand down.

REV PHOSHWANA: Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, the next witness that I will be calling is Rev Phosiwa.

BRIAN PHINEAS PHOSIWA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Rev Phosiwa, I'd like you to confine your evidence to the methods that were applied to you which the applicants have denied having used. Can you go ahead and give your evidence before the Committee?

REV PHOSIWA: The day on which I was arrested I was taken to Mavatshe. I stayed there for a long period, after a long time I was taken to the offices of the police who were investigating the cases by then. That person I met first was Gabriel Ramushwana.

Gabriel Ramushwana is the person who interrogated me for a while. His first question was why I was arrested, 'Reverend, why are you arrested?' Then I answered 'I don't know, I'm suspecting that now that I'm in this office, they wanted to tell me why I am arrested.' He further questioned me about the meetings in which he was asking whether I was present. So, where I attended, I said yes, where I didn't attend, then I said no.

After a while he took out some photos of a burnt police station and corpse which were burnt there and said, if you can go before the court of law and find that there are people who damaged like this, what do you think it will be the judgement of this case? Then I said I don't know because what you are showing me, I don't know. And then he said you don't want to tell me the truth, then I will take you to police who will not be able to listen to what you are saying and then you will relate that in a difficult way.

And then I tried to show that if he is thinking that I know something concerning the bombing of the police station, then I said I know nothing. But what I know is that there were two - or there were boys who came to my place on a certain date. Those boys ...(intervention)

MS MTANGA: ...(indistinct) we have evidence about the background of your arrest. What we'd like you to confine your evidence to are the methods of torture, the pulling of hair, who did it on you.

REV PHOSIWA: I was assaulted by fists as I entered the office where there were those policemen and I didn't know who beat me because there were so many. As I tried to count there were about eight or more than eight.

After that, I was force to sit in the water and I was forced to take of my clothes with my underpants and a bag which was wet which, every time water was poured with that bag, I was unable to breathe. It was tightened here around my neck and I was handcuffed backwards. After that I was forced to jump standing by wall, frog jumping.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: ...(indistinct) I thought you were trying to confine Rev Phosiwa so the methods of torture that he says has not been disclosed by the applicants.

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chair.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I recollect the evidence, the frog jumping method has been admitted, maybe you may be allowed through the Chair, is there anything that he is disputing from the evidence given by the applicants? The methods of torture already described by the applicants as having been administered on him, is he saying they have not to that extent complied with the requirement of full disclosure, if so, what is it that he says was not disclosed by the applicants?

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson. Rev Phosiwa, on page 156 of this bundle, the second paragraph, Chairperson, I think it's the fifth line. You've said that

"I didn't know what was going to happen. That is where the electric shocking took place on my private parts."

You've heard the evidence of the applicants that they say they never applied electrical shocks of the private parts of the people that they detained. I want you to tell this Committee who applied electrical shocks on your private parts, do you know who applied the electrical shocks?

REV PHOSIWA: By then, as I was assaulted, I was asked as to I have got how many children. I said I've got four and they said that's all. I didn't know what they mean when they said it's over now. It's then that four people sat on my legs because I was lying on my back, by two people, two sitting on the other leg, others assisted me here on the head, it is then that I was - something was happening in my genitals and it took a long time and it was very painful. That happened to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, now can you identify any of your assailants at that occasion, when you were having these electric shocks?

REV PHOSIWA: I cannot recall who did that because it was done while I was with the bag covering my face.

MS MTANGA: Who were the people present? You said there were eight people when you were being tortured. Who were these eight people who were present at the time of your torture?

REV PHOSIWA: Whom I recall their name by then, it's Mr Managa, Ramaligela, Nesamari and Mr Netshivale was present but by then I was not knowing his name and others.

MS MTANGA: Can you not recall who the other people were besides the ones who've applied here today?

REV PHOSIWA: The other person, I still remember whom I'm suspecting that he didn't participate, who was just talking verbally, is the old man, Mr Mazena.

MS MTANGA: At the time people were holding you down, you said four people sat on your legs and two others sat on your arms and another person at your head. Was your head covered by this time ...(intervention)

REV PHOSIWA: By then my head was still inside the bag and somebody was still tightening the bag so that it cannot be loose.

MS MTANGA: So you could not see who were the people sitting on you?

REV PHOSIWA: No, I was unable to see those people who were sitting on my legs and those people who were assisting. But it's only that when the bag was taken off my head, it was then that I managed to identify Ramaligela, Managa and Nesamari and the old man, Matsena.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: May I impose, Ms Mtanga? How soon after the electric shocks had been administered on your private parts was the bag taken - was this bag which had been pulled down your face, taken off your face?

REV PHOSIWA: I can't remember that it was how soon but, they just decided to stop it because they were tired and they take the bag off. But there is a day in which it lasted the whole day from the morning, approximately from seven or eight until in the evening.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. I don't think you actually get the ambit of what I'm trying to obtain from you. What I want to know is at the time when electric shocks were being administered on your private parts, you were unable to identify who was doing what because this bag had been pulled down over your face.

REV PHOSIWA: Yes, it's true. I was unable to identify who was doing that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And immediately after these electric shocks had been administered on your private parts, the bag must have been pulled over, is it not so?

REV PHOSIWA: It was not removed immediately.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: How long did you stay with your face inside the bag after the electric shocks had been administered on your private parts? Can you give us an estimation in terms of a few minutes, two minutes, a few seconds or a few hours?

REV PHOSIWA: It couldn't have lasted for an hour.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And during that time after the electric shocks, after they had stopped electrocuting you, on your private parts, what were they doing whilst your head was inside that bag?

REV PHOSIWA: They were sitting, others were standing, they were resting. I think they were thinking of a new method that they can use.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: So you were not tortured, save for the fact your face was still inside this bag?

REV PHOSIWA: While I was tortured, my head or my face was inside the bag.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, after they stopped administering the electric shocks on your private parts, you say they didn't do anything for approximately an hour or they didn't remove the bag for approximately an hour?

REV PHOSIWA: Yes, it's true. After that it was removed and then Ramushwana opened the door, he came and then I was taken to Mr Ramushwana, I was shown papers with bombs and guns and I was asked which bomb was used to bomb the police station.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: What I want to know from you is what happened from the time the electric shocks were not administered on your private parts to the time when the bag was not pulled over your head, what happened? Did anything happen? Were you tortured during that time?

REV PHOSIWA: Electric shock method was the last of what was happening, that is the last one from what they have related to us here.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: So you were just left to stay there with your head inside the bag for almost an hour?

REV PHOSIWA: Because that method was done for the last time, it is the very same time that I was taken outside and then taken somewhere because it was in the evening.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. And when the bag was pulled out of your face, who was in the room?

REV PHOSIWA: When the bag was removed from my face I've mentioned that there was Mr Ramaligela, Managa, Matsena and Nesamari. It's the people who I managed to identify, including Mr Netshivale. The others I didn't know them and even now I don't know them.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: It was the same faces who had been there before the electric shocks were administered on you?

REV PHOSIWA: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Rev Phosiwa, on page 155, you mentioned that your hair, that is hair from the head, was pulled from the root and this left a scar on your head. Do you know who pulled your hair from the head?

REV PHOSIWA: Well, I do not know. I could not even know who ultimately led to the pulling of the hair but on giving evidence Managa seemed to have know.

MS MTANGA: At the time your hair was being pulled, were you covered with something? Couldn't you see the people who were pulling your hair?

REV PHOSIWA: I was not covered.

MS MTANGA: I have no further evidence to lead, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga. Mr Meyer, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Rev Phosiwa?

MR MEYER: Mr Chairman, may I just take an instruction from my attorney?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MR MEYER: No questions to this witness.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MEYER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Meyer. Mr Van Rensburg, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the witness?

MR VAN RENSBURG: No questions, thank you Mr Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: Judge Khampepe, would you like to put any questions?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I have no questions for Rev Phosiwa.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Reverend. That concludes your testimony.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: The next person I will call, Chairperson, is Mr Chikororo.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Chikororo, what are your full names, please?

RAMANO SELWYN CHIKORORO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga?

EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Chikororo, as you've seen how we've given evidence on the aspects of, the nature of the methods used on you. I'll also want you to confine yourself to the methods that have been denied by the applicants such as the applying of electrical shocks on you. Can you give evidence on that aspect? And then also tell the Committee what the consequences of that torture were on you.

MR CHIKORORO: Yes, although I may not put it in that order but I think I'll try and be very brief and to the point.

The day I was detained, I was taken to Tsanane Police Station where in the charge office, I was slapped by Joe Nesamari. It was so hard that immediately blood ran out of my ear which for two weeks I tried to get medication and medical attendance for. And I couldn't get it, it became septic ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, was the bleeding from inside the ear or was it because it cut the skin on the ear, what was it?

MR CHIKORORO: It was from inside the ear. And it became septic and I had to squeeze the pus out on my own with a money clip.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you request medical treatment?

MR CHIKORORO: Yes, I mentioned it to the station commander and requested for attention. I only got it I think after two and a half weeks, that's when a doctor came. Subsequent to that, nothing of substance happened between November and January.

Mid-January, I think round about the 12th, that's when I was taken to Vembhe torture centre which consequently is about 200 metres from my home. I was taken to Mr Matsena and Mr Ramaligela - no, sorry, Ramushwana, I'm sorry. The two of them, Ramushwana saying he was a brother to me and Matsena saying that he was a father to me, gave me a statement that was said I was part of - this statement was complete in as far as the people who were involved and the things that transpired there were contained.

Now I indicated to these people there's nothing to add to this statement since nothing else of subsequence happened except that one. Now they said they are afraid that if they take me to the boys, the boys will handle me in such a manner that they as part of my extended family, they will feel very bad about it. That's when I was taken to the torture room.

Then when I got there, after all the lighter methods were used, then Mr Makgato said he's going to fetch 'Johnny Mindreader.'

MS MTANGA: Mr Chikororo, before you get there, who were the people present in the room before you were tortured?

MR CHIKORORO: Mr Ramaligela was there, Mr Managa was there, Mr Nesamari was there, Mr Msefua(?) was there. If I remember very well, Patrick Motelo was there who happened to be my classmate. I think one Mafenya, young fellow was there as well. Mr Netshivale was there and a few other younger fellows were also in that room.

MS MTANGA: Okay, you can go on with your evidence, you said Mr Makgato went to fetch whom?

CHAIRPERSON: He went to fetch 'Johnny Mindreader,' Johnny, the mindreader.

MR CHIKORORO: Yes, he said he was going to fetch 'Johnny Mindreader.' I had no inkling as to who that was.

That's when Mr Ramaligela who denies ever torturing me, took a bag which was too small for my big head, he is the one who cut it to fit my head. And then he put it on my head, my hands were handcuffed to the back, that's when they administered electric shocks. And during that period I was in my briefs - no, I was wearing underwear only. He, Mr Ramaligela, was in charge of the interrogation team. He told me that 'You can also appeal to your God, he never helps some of the people who went through this room.'

Shocks were applied all over the body, including my private parts and Ramaligela even mentioned to me that if you haven't given birth, it will never come. This process went on I think from about 09h00 in the morning to say immediately before 20h00 in the evening.

When they found that they were about to fail to get information, that's when Nesamari said 'Give him to me.' Then he connected electrodes to my private parts, my groin and my earlobes at the same time. Then, during that period I felt as if my body was separating in half. That's when I agreed to give the evidence they wanted which I wrote.

Then Mosishiwa took it to Gabriel Ramushwana and when he came back to me, Gabriel Ramushwana, and said to me 'Why did you have to lie?', I said to him 'Bra Gabe, this is what I had to say.' Then he turned to Ramaligela and said to him 'Ons is in groot kak. This whole thing is a whole big lie.' Then I was taken bag to Tsanane police station.

Subsequent to that, I was taken to Slome Hospital because some of the police members at Tsanane police station were concerned about the state of my health. I was urinating black urine and I appeared to be deranged, mentally. On arriving at the hospital, I collapsed in the consulting room. That's when I was admitted. Otherwise, before that I was only consulted from inside the police van.

CHAIRPERSON: How long were you confined in hospital, Mr Chikororo?

MR CHIKORORO: If I remember well, it was about two and a half weeks.

MS MTANGA: Mr Chikororo, you said Mr Nesamari took over the applying of electrical shocks on you.

MR CHIKORORO: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Was Mr Ramaligela and Mr Managa present at the time he was doing this?

MR CHIKORORO: Yes. Yes, they were there.

MS MTANGA: Wasn't your head covered at this point?

MR CHIKORORO: My head was covered. What used to happen is that - I mean I know, let me put it to the Committee that I know Ramaligela for a very, very long time, before even that. I couldn't have mistaken his voice because I even played cards with him before because he was a friend of my uncle.

So, he would give instructions and take it from there, so I couldn't mistaken any other person to be responsible. I couldn't have seen physically as to who applied the electrodes on my body but when Nesamari said particularly 'Give him to me,' he put those electrodes on me. He was even mentioning that 'Now my boy, if you don't give me information, it will never happen that you will give information again because I'm going to make you to give information.'

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, you said that you used to play cards with Mr Ramaligela.

MR CHIKORORO: Yes, with Ramaligela ...(indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: Now how did you know it was Mr Nesamari who said 'Hand him over to me.'

MR CHIKORORO: I know his voice. I'd talk to him before so, and I couldn't - his voice is quite unique, even if you can put me in a room now, I'll identify his voice.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Do you have anything that you want to add on in respect of the applying of electrical shocks on you except what you have said now?

MR CHIKORORO: I don't have anything to add.

MS MTANGA: What do you say about the fact that the applicants deny. Mr Ramaligela has emphatically denied that he tortured you or he was present when you were tortured and the fact that they deny ever applying electrical shocks on you, what do you say about that?

MR CHIKORORO: I am very disappointed at Ramaligela. I thought personally that he might be taking this process serious. In as far as the younger fellows are concerned, I think there's a cloud somewhere which is prohibiting these people from telling the truth which I believe is a disgrace. I had on my own, even from the day they tortured me, I had decided to say - I was cracking jokes with them, to their annoyance, and I had said, I was even battling with my good Reverend here that I had personally forgiven them. But whether the Nation and the Committee should forgive people who don't want to tell the truth when they are not pressurised, I feel that is a disappointment.

MS MTANGA: Does that conclude your evidence, Mr Chikororo?

MR CHIKORORO: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga. Mr Meyer, do you have any questions you'd like to ask the witness?

MR MEYER: Yes, Mr Chairman, I do but could I ask an indulgence of a ten minute break, I just need to clear some points of his evidence up with my clients?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly, we'll take a short adjournment, ten minutes to allow Mr Meyer to take instructions.

MR MEYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

RAMANO SELWYN CHIKORORO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Meyer, are you in a position to proceed?

MR MEYER: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman, and thank you for the adjournment.

MS MTANGA: Excuse me, Mr Chairperson, can I be allowed to - something has been brought to my attention during the break, that in the translation when Rev Phosiwa was giving evidence, he had stated that he couldn't see who pulled his hair from the head because he was made to face the wall, the part that stated he was made to face the wall was never translated by the interpreters, I just want to put that on record.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, we'll take note of that, Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Meyer?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chikororo, your referred to a person called 'Johnny Mindreader' that was going to be called. Do you remember that?

MR CHIKORORO: Yes.

MR MEYER: Who was this and did he ever arrive? Do you know who it is?

MR CHIKORORO: Yes, I know. It was this electricity gadget which I never saw.

MR MEYER: Oh. All right, now you've already testified that the electric shock method was used on you during the interrogation. Is that correct?

MR CHIKORORO: Yes.

MR MEYER: And it was done by Mr Nesamari, is that correct?

MR CHIKORORO: Not he alone.

MR MEYER: Yes. I didn't quite catch that part of the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: I think ...(indistinct) at the end, what Mr Chikororo said that after a whole day of torture from 09h00 to approximately 20h00 then he recognised the voice of Mr Nesamari saying 'Hand him over to me.' And it was thereafter that the electrodes were attached to various parts of his body and he was shocked, causing excruciating pain, is that right?

MR CHIKORORO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So Mr Nesamari came at that stage.

MR MEYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I just wasn't quite clear on that evidence. All right, and you've mentioned that you heard the voice of Mr Ramaligela while this process was taking place.

MR CHIKORORO: Yes, I heard his voice and whenever the sack was taken out, he was just next to my head.

MR MEYER: Now, is it possible, we know or I think it's more or less common cause that Mr Ramaligela was the head of the interrogation team who had to investigate this bombing of the police station. Do you agree with me that Mr Ramaligela, when you heard his voice, it's possible that he was looking in to see what progress was being made by his subordinates?

MR CHIKORORO: I don't remember his voice being absent from that torture room from the time I entered until the time I left. He is the one who said 'Let's put the sack back on his head because this boy is not co-operating.' And he is the one who will say 'Stop.' So, I am of the opinion that he was ever present. If maybe he went out, it might have been for a minute or two and he came back which was insignificant.

MR MEYER: Okay, I'll get back to that just now. All right, and then I also have to put it to you, as you are well aware that the applicants deny ever using the electric shock method and attaching the electrodes to your private parts.

MR CHIKORORO: That's a big, big, big disgrace, Mr Chairman.

MR MEYER: Okay, but you testify that you couldn't see who put the electrodes on you? You just heard Mr Nesamari's voice saying 'Give him to me.' Is that correct?

MR CHIKORORO: Yes, the other electrodes earlier, I can't exactly say who put them but the instruction were always from Muthuphei Ramaligela.

MR MEYER: Until it was taken over by Mr Nesamari?

MR CHIKORORO: Yes, that's when he requested to handle me, physically.

MR MEYER: Mr Chairman, there is just one instruction I need, if I can just have a minute. Yes, just to clear up this point, Mr Chikororo, Director Ramaligela says that he was, during the time while you were being tortured or assaulted, interrogated, he was there most of the time but he did go out on occasion. But then went back into the room where you were being held, do you agree with that?

MR CHIKORORO: On occasion, maybe if it meant that he walked out for a minute, and I felt two or three minutes he'll be back which to me, because I was battling with the pain and other things was insignificant. Even if he went out for five minutes or ten minutes, even this one long session would begin with him for 15, 20 minutes and end with him there. In as far as I'm concerned, he was always there.

MR MEYER: There were also other people present during your interrogation, is that correct?

MR CHIKORORO: That's correct.

MR MEYER: So, besides - let's leave out general Ramushwana for the moment, the second, third and fourth applicants, besides them there were also other people who were involved, is that correct?

MR CHIKORORO: Yes.

MR MEYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have nothing further.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEYER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Meyer. Mr Van Rensburg, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the witness?

MR VAN RENSBURG: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you commence, Mr Van Rensburg, Judge Khampepe has indicated she'd just like to clear something up with Mr Meyer.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Mr Meyer, what are your instructions with regard to the evidence accused by Mr Chikororo to the effect that Mr Ramaligela is the one who put the bag over his head?

MR MEYER: Oh, thank you Judge Khampepe, I omitted to ask him about that or to give - yes. Mr Ramaligela says that he can't remember but it is possible he was involved in that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Van Rensburg?

MR VAN RENSBURG: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, do you have any re-examination?

MS MTANGA: No re-examination, Chairperson, thank you.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Judge Khampepe, do you have any questions you'd like to ask Mr Chikororo?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I have no questions for Mr Chikororo, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Chikororo, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.

MR CHIKORORO: Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I will call my last witness, Mr Mahumela.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you full names please, Mr Mahumela?

CHIPIWA ANTHONY MAHUMELA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms Mtanga.

EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Mr Mahumela, you have heard the evidence of the applicants that the only assaults that were carried out on you was that you were slapped with bare hands and nothing serious happened to you, you suffered no serious injuries. Can you tell the Committee how were you assaulted by the applicants and what were the consequences of that assault?

MR MAHUMELA: Shortly after being taken in on 12 November 1981, I was taken into a room where there was a large number of Security Policemen. I should point out to the Committee that a considerable number of those people were well-known to me because of past contacts. Some of them attended the same school as me, some of them interacted with me in my line of duty at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct that at that time you were a public prosecutor?

MR MAHUMELA: Not in fact I would sometimes fill in as a public prosecutor but I was actually a clerk to the civil court in the local magistrate.

CHAIRPERSON: Employed by the local Department of Justice?

MR MAHUMELA: Correct, your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, proceed.

MR MAHUMELA: The first person to approach me after being taken to that room was Mr Netshivale to whom I was well-known because the police over that period were running a soccer team. I was also a soccer player and my team and his would now and then clash, clash in terms of playing soccer. And we were very used to each other.

And without saying anything, he slapped me so hard that I started bleeding profusely from the nose. This necessitated some form of first aid in that water was poured at the back of my head. And the process of the torture stopped for a while, for about maybe 15 minutes. From there I was forced to perform rigorous physical exercises, push-ups, the so-called 'scooter' which implies half a squat. I also experienced the so-called 'helicopter' which meant getting your hands tied together with your feet and being hung on whatever object there is they could hang you on.

CHAIRPERSON: I think from - is that where your hands and ankles are tied together and then a stick or a bar of some sort is put between your arms and legs and then suspended from two tables or two chairs or whatever to allow the victim to hand with his back towards the ground, from the bar.

MR MAHUMELA: Correct, your Honour, correct. I was also made to sit upright and stretch my legs. And some of them would trample on my legs to and fro and continuously.

I want to point out to the Committee that the number of people participating in my torture on that day was no less than 22 although it was to varying degrees and also that their participation was not simultaneous.

It all came through to me as a systematic sort of method that was aimed at a particular objective and I deduced that it was maybe meant to sort of drain me out and weaken whatever resistance they were perceiving on me.

I also want to make it known to the honourable Committee that my arrest on 12 November was not an initial one. I had been taken in for about two hours a day after the explosion. Whereafter a brief questioning, Mr Ramaligela promised that they will be coming back for me very soon.

On that day, the issue of the bombing of the police, I mean on the 12th, from around 09h00 when the torture started, it only featured very late, after maybe 15h00 in the afternoon. Perhaps I should not belabour the process by going into what was underway but, generally, the questions revolved around my history and whatever other activities I could have engaged in earlier in my life.

I was also made to stand on my head. I was also instructed to try and push a wall down which was very difficult because the floor was wet.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mahumela, were electrical shocks applied on you?

MR MAHUMELA: No, at no stage were electrical shocks applied to me. That it nearly happened but I can't remember exactly what happened but it would seem somebody was taken into a room next door and this, instead of continuing with the electric shocks, a large group of them left and went next door.

MS MTANGA: What event of significance happened during your torture that makes you question the evidence of the applicants today that the assaults on you have been very minor?

MR MAHUMELA: Your Honour, from 09h00 the torture went on and one, various people participating from one time to another and, around 16h00 if my estimation is correct, I was busy doing push ups, my knuckles were bleeding because I was instructed all the time to do it with my fists rather than with my palms. My knees were also bleeding and I just couldn't stand it any more. I just had no strength left in me.

And it was perceived that I was being cheeky and a number of Security Policemen, including one Mambeli Chibasi, Ntambeli Rambuda, a Mr Morengeni and Mr Makgato started trampling on me, all over my body. And in the process, a lady called Tinaboyo Rambuwane delivered a kick behind my ear. And that's the last I saw of that day.

CHAIRPERSON: You mean you lost consciousness?

MR MAHUMELA: Yes, your Honour.

MS MTANGA: You lost consciousness on the 12th that is?

MR MAHUMELA: Yes.

MS MTANGA: And then when did you recover from that, Mr Mahumela?

MR MAHUMELA: When I came to, I learnt that it's Sunday.

CHAIRPERSON: So what was the 12th?

MR MAHUMELA: The 12th was Thursday, your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: So, you're saying that at sometime after 16h00 on Thursday, when you got this kick behind the ear, you were unconscious for the whole of Friday, the whole of Saturday and a portion of Sunday?

MR MAHUMELA: Your Honour, I have to be very careful with the exact state in which I was. All I know is that I don't know what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's say you were not compus mentus from the time of the kick until some time on Sunday.

MR MAHUMELA: Yes, yes, your Honour, yes. When I came to I was told it's Sunday. And I was told that the place where I was is a prison hospital. And a prison warder who was also a nurse called Mrs Motenda had to explain to me why I was not lying on the bed, because there are beds in the prison hospital.

Some mattresses had been put on the floor and my hand had been handcuffed to one of the beds. And she explained very, very humbly that they had to do the handcuffing for my own safety.

CHAIRPERSON: So were you having some sort of fits during that period?

MR MAHUMELA: Your Honour, I have no personal recollection of what was happening.

CHAIRPERSON: It wasn't explained to you why it was for your own safety that you were handcuffed to the bed?

MR MAHUMELA: It was explained that it had been envisaged that I would fall off the bed.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mahumela, are you able to - were you told why you would have fallen from the bed if you had been left on the bed? What were you doing that would have led you to fall?

MR MAHUMELA: No full explanation was actually given to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Because, you're saying that you were lying on a mattress which was on the floor?

MR MAHUMELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And your hand was cuffed to the bed.

MR MAHUMELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So it doesn't really make sense that your hand was cuffed to the bed to stop you from falling off the bed because you weren't on the bed, you were on the floor.

MR MAHUMELA: I was made to understand that there had been an intention to attach whatever they could have deemed fitting to attach on me for medical purposes. And the understanding was that I would have torn it off in the state in which I was.

CHAIRPERSON: So in any event is was the hospital authority that did it for their own reason, it wasn't the police or somebody who did it to torture you further or to ...(intervention)

MR MAHUMELA: In my perception, your Honour, it had nothing to do with the police, and the apologetic tone of the people handling me at that time made me deduce that it was no way of perpetuating the torture I had undergone.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mahumela, is there anything else you want to add on the methods that you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you proceed, after being rendered unconscious and not know what you were about for three, three and a half days, did that have any lasting effect on you?

MR MAHUMELA: Your Honour, it did have a lasting effect. From that year, after the release, I would have constant nightmares, up until 1993 when somehow I got some therapy. And it became much, much, much better. Secondly I started developing blank moments which explains a scar I have on my forehead.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you black out and collapse?

MR MAHUMELA: Yes, your Honour. That has also received treatment and it has improved to a certain degree by now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mahumela, are you saying the scar on your forehead has something to do with the black outs that you had?

MR MAHUMELA: Yes.

MS MTANGA: When did you sustain that scar?

MR MAHUMELA: It has nothing to do with the period over which I was detained.

MS MTANGA: Oh.

MR MAHUMELA: I just suspect that it may be a consequence of the three days that I consider is missing in my life.

MS MTANGA: All right, do you have any other evidence to lead in respect of the methods that the applicants have denied. Or not on the methods they've used but the ones they've denied?

MR MAHUMELA: Yes, the pulling hair. I should point out that this method appeared to me very popular with them to an extent that one would even perceive that they would scramble to be the ones to do it. And in my case ...(intervention)

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: May I interpose? Are you still leading to the evidence that the same method was also applied on you?

MR MAHUMELA: Yes, your Honour.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mahumela, was any hair pulled from your private parts?

MR MAHUMELA: No, your Honour.

MS MTANGA: From what parts of your body was hair pulled?

MR MAHUMELA: Only my hair and my beard.

MS MTANGA: And do you know who did this to you, who pulled your hair?

MR MAHUMELA: Yes, your Honour.

MS MTANGA: Who did this?

MR MAHUMELA: The two Managa brothers.

MS MTANGA: Are you talking about the applicant in this matter and his late brother?

MR MAHUMELA: Correct, your Honour. Mr Nesamari, Tinaboyo Rambuwane, the lady, Mr Morengeni and Mr Matsena. Mr Ramaligela did handle my hair but I don't know whether it was solely for pulling because he grabbed my hair and banged my head on the floor about twice. That was quite early in that day and, apart from that, he never did anything else to me.

Let me also point out that the use of the younger policemen came through to me as a strategy because, whenever they would be unleashed on you, I would be specifically told that I am playing difficult and my type will be set on me. And in all experiences that I had with them, was that the younger the policemen, the more brutal the torture.

MS MTANGA: Do you have anything that you still want to add on these methods that the ...(indistinct) have denied?

MR MAHUMELA: No, your Honour.

MS MTANGA: That means that this concludes your evidence?

MR MAHUMELA: It does.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mahumela. Mr Meyer, do you have any questions you'd like to ask Mr Mahumela?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEYER: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Mahumela, as far as my clients are concerned, are you implying them in pulling your hair, Mr Managa and Mr Nesamari? And further more, Mr Ramaligela, you say he took you by the hair and banged your head against the floor?

MR MAHUMELA: Yes.

MR MEYER: Was that the totality of their involvement?

MR MAHUMELA: I'm saying this within the context of mentioning methods used on me that the applicants didn't mention or confess to.

MR MEYER: I see. Sorry, Mr Chairman, if I can just have a minute? Yes, I just want to put the applicants' version to you. I don't know if you remember the evidence. And that is firstly Mr Managa denies that he was involved in your torture.

MR MAHUMELA: Yes, I remember the evidence as given by Mr Managa and I remember his also mentioning that the specific reason why I couldn't have been tortured was because I was a prosecutor at that time. And I also remember specifically that throughout my torture, he and many more kept on reminding me the fact that I am a prosecutor shall not influence them in any way in terms of them getting the truth out of me.

What frustrated me from time to time is that before 15h00 ...(intervention)

MR MEYER: All right, sorry, before you continue, I just want to interrupt you. I just want to put their version to you and get your comment on that.

MR MAHUMELA: Please.

MR MEYER: Yes, and I don't know if you remember, Mr Nesamari testified that he can't remember clearly but it's possible that he was also involved in your ...(indistinct).

MR MAHUMELA: I do remember that, yes.

MR MEYER: And the same goes for Mr Ramaligela.

MR MAHUMELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want him to comment on that now, Mr Meyer?

MR MEYER: Yes, well I just need to put the version, I think he's already given us his version of the events. Mr Chairman, if I can just, with regard - because he made mention of a specific event by Mr Ramaligela and I don't think Mr Ramaligela - he just gave broad evidence that he might have been involved. Can I just clear that up?

CHAIRPERSON: About the holding of the hair and bashing about two times?

MR MEYER: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman. Yes, he says he can't remember if that was done actually.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure that it was Mr Ramaligela who took you by the hair and banged your head on the concrete floor?

MR MAHUMELA: Yes, your Honour, I remember specifically because to me, Mr Ramaligela was simply honouring a promise he had made to me a few days before.

MR MEYER: Mr Mahumela, when Ms Mtanga was cross-examining Mr Ramaligela, she made a statement or she put to Mr Ramaligela that you will come and testify that Mr Ramaligela is the person who tortured you the most.

MR MAHUMELA: I have no personal recollection of how Ms Mtanga could have put it. But I also don't know whether can rate torture. To me, on that day I was tortured, as to who tortured me the most, I don't think I can tell, I think they were equally brutal and, the one would be in consensus with regard to what the other was doing from time to time. So, to me, I was tortured by the whole group of them.

MR MEYER: Just for your information, Mr Chairman, it's contained on page 123 of the transcript of the evidence so far.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MEYER: I have nothing further, thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEYER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Meyer. Mr Van Rensburg, do you have questions you'd like to ask the witness?

MR VAN RENSBURG: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any re-examination?

MS MTANGA: No re-examination, Chairperson, thank you.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: You've got no questions? Adv Bosman, do you have any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Just one question, thank you, Chairperson. Could you tell me, in so far as Mr Netshivale is concerned, was there anything which he did to you which he did not disclose during the evidence? It would appear to me as though he had disclosed what he had done to you unless I don't have my notes complete.

MR MAHUMELA: I wouldn't say - I couldn't read any concealment but, I did note that he didn't make specific mention of the exercises that I was told to perform.

ADV BOSMAN: Did he personally tell you to perform exercises or was he just present when you were told to?

MR MAHUMELA: Yes, he did personally tell me to conduct exercises after the bleeding on my nose had stopped.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising, Mr Meyer?

MR MEYER: Nothing, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van Rensburg.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, indeed I have, thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG: When you gave evidence as to which persons instructed you to do the physical exercises, you mentioned the names of quite a few persons but you did not mention the name of Mr Netshivale, isn't that correct?

MR MAHUMELA: That is not correct. I mentioned names with respect to the pulling of hair. And indeed, in that regard Mr Netshivale didn't play a role.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And he also didn't play any role with regard to the jumping all over you which was done by the people that you mentioned in your evidence.

MR MAHUMELA: Correct, your Honour. The trampling on my legs happened late that day.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes.

MR MAHUMELA: And Mr Netshivale, in my recollection was no longer in that room.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. So those were the exceptions where he didn't participate in any of the assaults that you were subjected to.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Can you recall exactly what exercises you were instructed to do by each and every person?

MR MAHUMELA: I wouldn't say I remember exercises that I was told to perform by each person but, amongst the applicants, those who been started me to conduct exercises, I do remember. But, as I told you the number was 22 and they participated to varying degrees, I wouldn't be able to give a recollection of the role of each and every single on of them.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Am I then correct if I then deduct that you can also not remember exactly what exercise Mr Netshivale instructed you to do?

MR MAHUMELA: That is incorrect. If you remember well, I did tell you that there was a particular way in which I related to Mr Netshivale, we were both soccer rides(?). And may I also mention that when I was told to do frog jumps, sometimes he would start off together with me, not only he, there were other people who were also soccer rides in the team and they would also perform with me to a certain extent and I would be instructed to continue alone after they stopped.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Mahumela, the question is what exercises did Mr Netshivale instruct you to do?

MR MAHUMELA: Yes, that's the question you had not asked. Now that it is asked I will answer it.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, please.

MR MAHUMELA: Mr Netshivale told me to stand upright, raise my hands up and I don't know what's the proper English, remember English came to us by ship, he told me to flicker if I may use that word.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) flex your hands?

MR MAHUMELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Like this?

MR MAHUMELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The witness just for personal record indicates holding his hands up, the flexing of his fingers by closing his hands to a fist and then opening them up as wide as he can stretch his fingers ...(intervention)

MR MAHUMELA: And all the time, my palms had to be above my head.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now, why didn't you give us this information when you gave evidence-in-chief?

MR MAHUMELA: I thought that qualifies for a rigorous exercise. And I remember mentioning rigorous exercise.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, and you mentioned what exercises, the frog jumps and the push against the wall and everything. But you didn't mention this one, why not?

MR MAHUMELA: I did mention 'and other exercises.'

MR VAN RENSBURG: Why didn't you mention this one, that's the question?

MR MAHUMELA: I simply just didn't mention it. No specific reason but it qualifies and falls under rigorous exercises in my definition.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I just have to put it to you that Mr Netshivale denies that he ever instructed you to do these exercises that you're now testifying about.

MR MAHUMELA: Well, he denies, I say he did.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, anything in re-examination?

MS MTANGA: No re-examination, Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: I mean any questions arising out of questions from the Panel?

MS MTANGA: None, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mahumela, thank you. That concludes your testimony.

MR MAHUMELA: Thank you, your Honour.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, Mr Mahumela was my last witness. And this concludes my evidence from this side. But I just want to refer the Committee to the statement that was mentioned by Rev Phoshwana. And it's been indicated to me by other victims that they also did make such statements and, I have made a

request to Cape Town to fax us the statements and I'm awaiting the fax from Cape Town.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. I see now that it's about 16h40, I think this would be a convenient time for us to adjourn and then, if we can reconvene tomorrow for purposes of receiving submissions.

MR MEYER: Certainly, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: What would be a convenient time to start, 09h30?

MS MTANGA: 09h30 would be suitable for me, Chairperson.

MR MEYER: That's fine with me.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, we'll now adjourn until tomorrow morning in this same venue and we'll start at 09h30 tomorrow morning and, tomorrow we will receive submissions from the legal representatives. That includes you as well.

MS MTANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, we'll adjourn then till tomorrow 09h30.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS