MR NDOU: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. Before I proceed Honourable Chairperson, I also wish to indicate that we are lucky, the applicant we were looking for, has arrived, and he will be ready to proceed. I am now going to call Andrew Rammbwa, who is the second applicant.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rammbwa, which language would you prefer to use?
MR RAMMBWA: Venda.
ANDREW RAMMBWA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed.
EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU: Thank you Honourable Chairman. You are the applicant in this matter and when were you born?
MR RAMMBWA: I was born on the 3rd of March 1967.
MR NDOU: I see and you are presently serving a prison service in the Thohoyandou Medium A prison? Is that correct?
MR RAMMBWA: Yes, that is correct.
MR NDOU: And now, you have applied for amnesty in terms of Section 18 of the Amnesty Act. For which charges do you want to apply for amnesty?
CHAIRPERSON: Don't you think it is safer for you to tell us that at the end of the hearing?
MR NDOU: Oh, thank you Honourable Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rammbwa, you know why you are at this hearing, not so? It is in connection, as I understand your written application, with the death of Mr Edward Mavhunga and the incident that occurred the day he died at his house?
MR RAMMBWA: Yes, I know that.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you present at the previous hearing when all the historical details were given to us?
MR RAMMBWA: I was present here all the time.
CHAIRPERSON: You heard what was said at that time?
MR RAMMBWA: Yes, of course.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree with what was said in respect of the background and the history that led to this attack?
MR RAMMBWA: Yes, I agree with everything.
CHAIRPERSON: Tell us what you did yourself, in respect of that incident.
MR RAMMBWA: I went to the deceased's home in order to ask him to leave the Village and the deceased refused to leave the Village. Before further talks can be pursued, the deceased started to throw the spear to the crowd and the stones and he was also using the assegai and then the people threw the stones back. I am one of the people who really threw the stones to the deceased. Furthermore when we were fighting with the deceased, it is then that the deceased was fighting very hard, and I was also there fighting with him. It happened that people decided to stop the people, to say let the children and the wife leave the place because we were not fighting with them, and then those people were taken out and were taken to the chief's kraal and then the deceased remained in the house. When the deceased remained in the house, what I did to the deceased then is that I took furniture which was there, while the deceased was alone, while others had already left, I took the furniture and threw it on top of the deceased while it was burning, and I also burnt the furniture which was inside the house. That is all.
MR NDOU: I don't know if we should take this any further Honourable Chair?
JUDGE DE JAGER: Perhaps for clarity, he was accused 8 at the trial according to the charge sheet on page 34?
MR RAMMBWA: Yes, it is true.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Then if you can look at the sentence on page 46 or page 93 of the numbered volumes, he was sentenced on counts 1, 2, 3 and 7. Count 1 being the public violence in entering the people, Petrus Mavhunga; count 2 setting fire on the property of Edward Mavhunga; count 3 had the intention to injure Edward Mavhunga and count 7 killing Edward Mavhunga? Would that be the matters in which he is applying for amnesty?
MR RAMMBWA: Yes.
JUDGE DE JAGER: All those he was convicted on?
MR RAMMBWA: I am applying for amnesty with regards to that.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you. Were you involved too in setting fire to the house of Edward Mavhunga on the 28th of February 1990?
MR RAMMBWA: Yes, it is correct.
JUDGE DE JAGER: So you are applying for incidents on the 28th of February 1990 as well as the incidents on the 6th of April 1990?
MR RAMMBWA: Yes, I am asking regarding all these aspects.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr van Rensburg?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Rammbwa, you were not present at the meeting on the 6th of April, is that correct?
MR RAMMBWA: I was in that meeting.
MR VAN RENSBURG: If the Chairperson will just give me one second, please.
CHAIRPERSON: While Mr van Rensburg is looking for his things, can I ask you something that he is likely to put to you. This grouping of youth that was referred to as the Mavhunga Youth Congress, did it exist?
MR RAMMBWA: Yes, it once existed.
CHAIRPERSON: If someone had to come put it to you that it didn't exist, what would you say?
MR RAMMBWA: A person who would say that it never existed, is a person who never attended our meetings.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Rammbwa, I refer you to a statement that you made that was contained in the Police docket, in case docket CR11/4/90.
CHAIRPERSON: What page is that?
MR VAN RENSBURG: Page 9 and 9(b) of the bundle.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Is that the numbered pages?
MR VAN RENSBURG: That is the numbered pages, yes. Do you have the relevant passage that I am referring to?
MR RAMMBWA: I don't have them with me here.
CHAIRPERSON: Isn't it easier for you to tell him what is written in there?
MR VAN RENSBURG: I will do that. Thank you. You see in that statement, and I put it to you as a statement, that you can react to, in that specific statement that I have referred to, you have stated that you were at the time at the soccer ground when the people arrived, singing, in a group and saying that they are proceeding to the kraal of one Mavhunga.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg, we've got to be very careful here. The statement doesn't seem to be signed or attested to or whatever, I am not too sure whether, what the source is of this. So we've got to tread very careful here, let's find out from him if that is what he said.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is the object of my question, we can handle it on that basis, yes. Mr Ndou, can I just ask you, have you shown him the relevant passage?
MR NDOU: Yes, he is looking at it.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you. Mr Rammbwa, do you see that statement that is contained in that bundle that has been given to us?
MR RAMMBWA: Yes.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, is that a statement made by yourself to the Police?
CHAIRPERSON: In that statement it says there that you were at the soccer ground and boys arrived there, singing. Did you tell anybody that?
MR RAMMBWA: I am surprised to see that statement, I don't know it.
CHAIRPERSON: It says further that they told you that they were proceeding to the kraal of one Mavhunga. Did you tell anybody that?
MR RAMMBWA: No, I didn't tell anybody that.
CHAIRPERSON: It then states there that "we" which includes you, arrived at the said kraal and it was set alight.
MR RAMMBWA: No, I disagree with that.
CHAIRPERSON: "Abel Muhadi lit the match and then set the hut on fire", did you tell anybody that?
MR RAMMBWA: No, I didn't tell anybody about that.
CHAIRPERSON: The hut got burnt. From there they said that they wanted to proceed to a place called Condeni. Did you tell anybody that?
MR RAMMBWA: No.
CHAIRPERSON: "From there I did not accompany them any more, they proceeded to Condeni." Did you tell anybody that?
MR RAMMBWA: No, I didn't tell anybody that.
CHAIRPERSON: "I only noticed when the huts were on fire, that is all." Did you tell anybody that?
MR RAMMBWA: No, I didn't tell anybody that.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg, we have gone through the whole statement.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. I will continue. Have you in fact made a statement, a warning statement to the Police after you had been arrested for these specific instances after the death of Mr Mavhunga? Have you made a warning statement, that is the question?
MR RAMMBWA: No.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman, if necessary, I will follow that up with other evidence later, I have no further questions to this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG
MR MAPOMA: No questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, have you got any questions?
MR NDOU: Nothing further Honourable Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU
JUDGE DE JAGER: According to the evidence in court, given by Rosinnah, you were one who hit her with your fist when she left the house?
MR RAMMBWA: No, I didn't beat her.
JUDGE DE JAGER: That is on page 74 of the record.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, I think you must look very carefully at what he is applying for because I think what he is sentenced for and what he has testified to, may not be inclusive of each other.
MR NDOU: Honourable Chairperson, I have noticed now that the charge of public violence, does not come out clearly. Although he does say in general terms that he is applying for amnesty in respect of the arson charges and the murder charge.
CHAIRPERSON: As I understand this sentence, the public violence was alternative to count 2 which was a first attempt of arson. The application does not refer to that one.
MR NDOU: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: But at any rate, I will leave it in your hands, you will tell us at the end.
MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR NDOU: My assistant is just whispering to me that the third applicant who has arrived, indicates that he is not prepared to proceed with the matter. We just want to find out if he wants us to have the application withdrawn. Honourable Chairman, the applicant indicates to me that he is no longer interested, he wishes to withdraw the application.
CHAIRPERSON: You are Ailwei Maivha?
MR MAIVHA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Your Attorney has just informed us that you wish to withdraw the application for amnesty that you made some time in 1996?
MR MAIVHA: Yes, it is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: It relates to the attack on Mr Mavhunga's homestead when he died?
MR MAIVHA: Yes, it is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: I understand you have travelled from Johannesburg to come here today?
MR MAIVHA: Yes, it is true.
CHAIRPERSON: When did you decide you wanted to withdraw this matter?
MR MAIVHA: It is now, because I want this thing to be postponed, I don't think I can speak effectively. I think if I cannot be allowed, if you cannot postpone my case to a further date, then I think for now, I am tired. I feel like sleeping, I won't be able to make an effective contribution.
CHAIRPERSON: Wait, we will come to that. When did you decide you wanted to withdraw, today?
MR MAIVHA: Yes, it is now, today.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou was representing you some time in July last year, is that not so?
MR MAIVHA: Yes, it is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you contact him some time ago to find out "look, what is my position"?
MR MAIVHA: I didn't think about it in the past, it is something that I am deciding just now.
CHAIRPERSON: No, when did you know you must come here, when did you decide you were coming here?
MR MAIVHA: I knew about this, that I will be testifying here, within two weeks.
CHAIRPERSON: Two weeks ago?
MR MAIVHA: Yes, two weeks ago.
CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you contact Mr Ndou?
MR MAIVHA: I was not in possession of his phone number.
CHAIRPERSON: What do you want to do now?
MR MAIVHA: For now I was asking Mr Ndou, I was asking Mr Ndou that my mind is not well today, and I asked him to postpone this for tomorrow, then I decided to withdraw, because for now, I cannot testify.
CHAIRPERSON: Why can't you testify?
MR MAIVHA: I am tired, strained and feeling asleep and I don't think, I want to make up my mind so that my mind can refresh so that I can give evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: Why are you sleepy? It is twelve o'clock?
MR MAIVHA: I am tired, I have just arrived and the transport which I was using, was not comfortable and I am feeling sleepy and tired now.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you not sleep last night?
MR MAIVHA: No, I didn't sleep last night.
CHAIRPERSON: What did you do last night?
MR MAIVHA: I was sitting on a train coming back to this hearing.
CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you come to Thohoyandou, let's say Friday or Saturday?
MR MAIVHA: I was working on those days.
CHAIRPERSON: The first time you could get onto a train was yesterday, last night?
MR MAIVHA: Yes, that is right.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou your client has asked us to postpone this matter. The best I can do is till tomorrow morning. Hopefully he will be able to sleep tonight, to find somewhere comfortable to sleep so that he is not in a similar condition tomorrow. I am a bit perturbed that he didn't take you into his confidence and merely told you that he wants to withdraw the matter without really asking you and telling you what his condition was. But nonetheless, we will come to his assistance and postpone the matter till tomorrow morning, nine o'clock. Let us come to this agreement in front of him, if he is not here nine o'clock, that is the end of the matter. Do you understand that, Mr Maivha?
MR MAIVHA: Yes, I understand that.
CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear that?
MR MAIVHA: Yes, I agree.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, because we are indulging now, and I can quite understand that maybe you are in that situation not because of your own fault, but we have 15 other matters to see to. You will see there behind you are people who have an interest in the quick solution of these hearings. Fortunately for you, you are not in their position and therefore I would ask you to see to it that we don't waste further time. It is possible that some of them may be released some time. Do you understand?
MR MAIVHA: Yes, I understand.
CHAIRPERSON: Your hearing then is postponed until tomorrow morning.
MR NDOU: Thank you Honourable Chairman, we will submit his affidavit today.
CHAIRPERSON: Well aside from that, tomorrow morning, without wasting time, what these three people are applying for, I would expect you to be in a position to tell us tomorrow.
MR NDOU: Thank you Honourable Chair.
