ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Which matter are we going to proceed with now?
MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, we are proceeding with incident 16, the applicants are Solomon Modise Muenda and Aubrey Leshweu Mokaleng.
CHAIRPERSON: The representation is as in the last matter?
MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, who have we got here.
MR NDOU: We have Solomon Muenda.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Muenda, what language would you prefer to use?
MR MUENDA: Venda.
SOLOMON MODISE MUENDA: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU: Thank you Honourable Chairman. Mr Muenda, you have made an application to the Committee for amnesty in respect of the murder of Tseisi, is that correct?
MR MUENDA: Yes, that is correct.
MR NDOU: And you have also submitted an affidavit as part of your application, which has also been submitted to the Committee. I want to find out from you if you confirm the contents of this affidavit?
MR MUENDA: Yes, I confirm.
MR NDOU: Now also could you briefly explain to the Committee as to what you personally did on the date in question and as to how it came about that Tseisi was killed?
MR MUENDA: Yes, I can explain.
MR NDOU: Please do so.
MR MUENDA: On the 2nd of October 1990, it was found that Katchela Maphaha hanged himself, on the 3rd of October it is then that we had a meeting. In that meeting we decided to take a resolution on how is it going to happen that this thing comes to an end of killing these youth.
On the very same day of the 3rd, we went to Mr Maphaha, the father of the deceased.
MR NDOU: Okay, let's take it slowly. This Katchela Maphaha, who was he?
MR MUENDA: It is a school child who hanged himself.
MR NDOU: How old was he?
MR MUENDA: I am not sure of the years, but he or she was in the secondary school.
MR NDOU: I see. What role did he play? Why was he so important?
MR MUENDA: I am saying that he or she is important because she proved to be active in political matters.
MR NDOU: How active?
MR MUENDA: He used to attend meetings which were held in various areas in the country.
MR NDOU: Okay, and then? He hanged himself, then what happened?
MR MUENDA: It is then that we went to his or her father.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Why is it his or her? Was it a girl or a boy?
MR MUENDA: It was a girl, she was a girl.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Then could we refer to her as she?
INTERPRETER: With Venda there is a problem, that pronoun can stand for he and she.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Interpreter, now you know it is female.
INTERPRETER: Thank you.
MR NDOU: Yes, you can proceed. You can proceed.
MR MUENDA: On our arrival to the father of Katchela, we questioned him as to how Katchela died. He said that he proceeded to the people who threw bombs to find out what killed her. On his arrival from the bomb throwers, he indicated that it was Masakona Tseisi who killed her.
From there, on the 6th of October, on Saturday, it is then that we agreed that we must go and question Masakona Tseisi as to how she killed her. It is on the very same day that she was killed. She didn't ultimately explain how she killed her, because the group of people drugged her and then took her outside and then we went somewhere to the valley where she was stoned. As myself who is speaking, I stabbed her several times.
From there, before she was burnt, we agreed to go and fetch petrol. The person who were sent to take petrol is Aubrey Mokaleng. When they came back with petrol, it is then that Aubrey Mokaleng poured the petrol on her and then I lit the match and then the deceased died. It is then that we dispersed.
MR NDOU: Now what we want to find out from you is how would the death of Masakona Tseisi benefit you or be advantageous to your cause?
MR MUENDA: To us, we were going to benefit as far as we were concerned, because we took it that these people who use medicines, if they are eliminated or they are no longer there in the village, it means that the activists, many activists amongst us, will no longer be disturbed by anything, so that they could achieve their aim of progressing.
CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, how did you connect, let's assume that this child's death was caused by the deceased. How was that political?
MR MUENDA: As far as I was concerned, I think it was linked with politics because the deceased, Masakona Tseisi, was viewed as a person who practised witchcraft and so those people were the people who give the top officials medicines, so that they could be able to control Venda. Venda which by then, we were no longer in need of it, and we were in need of it to be incorporated into South Africa.
CHAIRPERSON: This child was hanged, did she hang herself or what?
MR MUENDA: She hanged herself.
CHAIRPERSON: Now, what was the deceased's connection with that, or any government official, how was that connected?
MR MUENDA: The link was with the deceased Katchela Maphaha because her father heard about it from a bone thrower, that his child was killed by Masakona Tseisi.
CHAIRPERSON: All right, let's assume that that was the truth, why was there a political connotation attached to that, if at all, if there was a political connotation?
MR MUENDA: Yes, I think it linked with politics because Masakona Tseisi was viewed as a witch and as such she was disturbing people like Katchela Maphaha to be disturbed so that she cannot continue with her activism. I believe if she was still alive, she would have been something in politics, if she was still alive.
CHAIRPERSON: But how do you know that the reason for killing her or casting a spell on her, was to stop her, was for political reasons and not any other reason?
MR MUENDA: We realised that because she was a child who has proved to be very active in politics.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we know that, we know that. Why do you say that her death was caused by the deceased for political reasons?
MR MUENDA: We viewed it like that because Katchela Maphaha, in view of Katchela Maphaha regarding politics, she was very active and then we took it for granted that she killed her because she was active in politics.
CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't have any proof that that was the case? It may very well have been for some other reason, other than politics, correct?
MR MUENDA: Other reasons, no, there is no other reasons.
CHAIRPERSON: Why do you say so?
MR MUENDA: There is no other reasons because Katchela or Masakona Tseisi, there was no other thing that they owned, there was nothing which they owned.
JUDGE DE JAGER: But this happened after the coup, after the change of government? Ravel's government was already thrown over and Gen or Col Ramushwana took over, so you already had a new government in favour of the ANC? Isn't that so?
MR MUENDA: That the government was overthrown or was taken, I think it is not true.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Wasn't the government overthrown on the 5th of April 1990?
MR MUENDA: Our main aim was not for this government to be taken by the soldiers, but our aim was for the reincorporation into the RSA. By then it was not yet reincorporated into South Africa, it was still under the soldiers of Ramushwana.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, but the soldiers of Ramushwana and Ramushwana himself was in favour of incorporation into the RSA?
MR MUENDA: So, I don't think that is true.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Well, I know that he later advocated it at the negotiations that he was in favour of incorporation?
MR MUENDA: I think that is not true, because that the Ramushwana government was in favour of reincorporation is that when I look, I realised that many things were blocked by the soldiers from it, and then we started to no longer rely on soldiers, because it is long that they were blocking our ways and we loose hope in them.
CHAIRPERSON: Look, political activity was allowed more freely after the coup d'etat is that not so? Correct?
INTERPRETER: He is asking for the question to be repeated.
CHAIRPERSON: After the coup d'etat in Venda, political activity was freer, one could be active in politics more readily than was previously the case? Not so?
MR MUENDA: I might agree.
CHAIRPERSON: I am asking you whether you agree or not, do not tell me whether you might do so.
MR MUENDA: May you please repeat your question.
CHAIRPERSON: Look, in the old days political activity was stifle, not so and that was one of the problems experienced by the youth and by the community in general, correct?
MR MUENDA: Yes, that is true.
CHAIRPERSON: And that stifling was controlled by the then government of Venda, correct?
MR MUENDA: Yes, it is true.
CHAIRPERSON: You now tell us that those people who were stifling political activity, who were the government officials, etc, were being assisted ...
MR MUENDA: Yes, that is true.
CHAIRPERSON: And they were being assisted in being kept in power by the powers of the witches, correct?
MR MUENDA: Yes, it is true.
CHAIRPERSON: That was your belief. And it becomes political because you were part of a group of people who wanted free political activity as well as reincorporation into South Africa, correct?
MR MUENDA: Yes, it is true.
CHAIRPERSON: And as I understand the implication of your evidence, that is why and how witches became political targets?
MR MUENDA: Yes, yes, it is true.
CHAIRPERSON: Are we in agreement so far? Now, would you also agree that after the coup d'etat political activities became free or freer than it was in Venda? Not so?
MR MUENDA: During the time of Ramushwana, you are referring to the time of Ramushwana?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR MUENDA: Yes, I agree, but we were not fully confident of them because their soldiers oppressed us from long ago and we used to see Ramushwana and soldiers, and I used to see Ramushwana travelling with a certain MP who was called Manduana and we were not relying wholeheartedly to him.
CHAIRPERSON: I am going to ask you nicely, just answer the question, I don't want a long answer. While Ramushwana was, may according to your evidence, have been not in favour of reincorporation, you were aware that after the coup de'etat the whole nation with all its political or most of its political aspects were in negotiations? Not so? Those negotiations took a long time, correct?
MR MUENDA: I cannot remember which negotiations you are referring to.
CHAIRPERSON: The national negotiations that settled this country, the most important negotiations ever in the history of this country. I am not talking about negotiations between workers and the bosses. I am talking about the negotiations that occurred outside Johannesburg, Kemptonpark.
MR MUENDA: Yes, I remember of multi-party talks.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Ramushwana was there, correct?
MR MUENDA: I am not sure, I've got no idea about that.
CHAIRPERSON: In those negotiations the question of reincorporation was on the agenda, not so? You knew about that?
MR MUENDA: Yes, I agree.
CHAIRPERSON: And the actual aspect of reincorporation would necessarily take time then? Correct?
MR MUENDA: Yes, I agree.
CHAIRPERSON: Now, if that is so and you had free political rights to political activities, how can you justify the belief that your political freedom to reincorporation was being stifled, when in fact it was being negotiated? That is the effect of your evidence, that is why the deceased was killed? You explain that to me.
MR MUENDA: Could you please repeat the question, I am not clear on that?
CHAIRPERSON: If the question of reincorporation was being negotiated, which you say you knew of, how could that aspect of re-negotiation form the basis for your political reason to participate in the killing of the deceased?
MR MUENDA: As far as I am concerned, I think when Ramushwana was in the multi-talks, it happened at the same time when here in Venda we were, witches were being burnt. What I know is that Ramushwana was not here, and I think he heard about it while he was maybe in those multi-talks, that Venda was ungovernable. It is then that I believe that even Ramushwana himself was not aware of what was happening there in Venda and the community here in Venda was not quite sure as to what Ramushwana was doing there at the multi-talks.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Ndou, any more questions?
MR NDOU: I don't wish to take this any further Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU
CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg, have you got any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG: Just a few, thank you Mr Chairperson. Who pointed the deceased as a witch?
MR MUENDA: It is Albert Maphaha.
MR VAN RENSBURG: That is the father of the activist, is that correct?
MR MUENDA: Yes, it is correct.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, but did he point her as a witch or did he point her as the person responsible for that child's death?
MR MUENDA: He pointed her as a witch.
MR VAN RENSBURG: You see that is not what you say in your statement in paragraph 21, referring to page 6(e). No mention is made there that she was pointed as a witch, only that she was identified as the culprit. Do you see that?
MR MUENDA: I am unable to see that.
MR VAN RENSBURG: why? Can't you read?
MR MUENDA: I can read.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay. I will read it to you
"... the deceased in this incident, Masakona Tseisi, was identified as the culprit."
Even if you read paragraph 20 -
"... the deceased's family proceeded to a bone thrower to establish the cause of death as well as the person who was responsible for it."
You see, there in 20 and 21 there is no mention made of a witch? So it could have been any person that was pointed by that bone thrower, is it not so? Shall I repeat the question for you?
MR NDOU: Yes, maybe it will be better, I don't understand the question as well.
MR VAN RENSBURG: It is actually a simple question. In paragraph 20 and 21 of your statement you refer to a bone throwing incident, where a person was appointed to be responsible for the death of the youngster, and in 21 the deceased was identified as the culprit. Nowhere is it mentioned that the deceased was in fact pointed as a witch.
ADV SIGODI: Sorry, to come to your assistance Mr van Rensburg, let's start with why would a person go to a bone thrower?
MR MUENDA: Traditionally in Venda, when a person passed away, we go to the bone thrower to find out or to establish the cause of the death.
ADV SIGODI: Yes, and the person who would be identified as the person who was the cause of the death, what would that person be in the view of the community?
MR MUENDA: That person would be viewed as a witch.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman. So is that the reason why you described the deceased as a witch?
MR MUENDA: Yes, it is true.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you have any other instances or rumours that you knew of, to indicate that she was a witch, apart from this bone throwing incident?
MR MUENDA: There is nothing else which I know, I started to know about it then.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Why did you stab the deceased?
MR MUENDA: I stabbed the deceased because the deceased was the person who was an obstacle in us, preventing us to continue with our political activities.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Because according to you she was a witch, is that correct?
MR MUENDA: Yes, it is true.
MR VAN RENSBURG: So you believed her to be responsible for the death of this youngster?
MR MUENDA: Yes.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, do you agree that the deceased, that is Masakona Tseisi was related to that youngster's father, to Albert? Do you agree with that?
MR MUENDA: That I won't say I agree completely, I am not sure of that, I don't know of that.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay. I put it to you that the youngster's father, or let's put it the other way around, that the deceased was the aunt of the youngster's father, do you agree with that?
MR MUENDA: I might agree because you are telling me that now.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay. The reason why I am asking you that is if you accept that there was a family relationship, shouldn't the deceased also have been involved in this process of going to see the bone thrower to identify the culprit?
MR MUENDA: Would you please repeat your question?
MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes. The question is seeing that there was a family relationship between these persons, shouldn't the deceased also have been invited or even known, informed, about the decision to go and see a bone thrower?
MR MUENDA: I am not sure if she was a close relative or not. That is why don't know about that.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, I will put it to you and it is my instructions on behalf of the victims that the deceased's family, not herself, her family was in fact present during the bone thrower's ceremony and that Masakona Tseisi was not identified at that ceremony as the culprit?
MR MUENDA: No, we heard that Masakona Tseisi was appointed as a witch. Now that you are saying that is not true, it means that Maphaha lied to us, because he is the one who fed us with the information. We didn't go there.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I will further put it to you that at the bone throwing ceremony, the culprit was identified as a large lady wearing a ZCC badge. Have you ever heard this rumour before? What do you say to this statement?
MR MUENDA: That I never heard, I only heard about Masakona Tseisi. This thing of a badge, I didn't hear about it.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay. Were you present when the youngster's father, I think his name was Albert, when he informed the community that the culprit was identified as Ms Tseisi?
MR MUENDA: Yes, I was in that yard, but I was not so close to him, but I was informed by other people who were with Mr Albert.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Hm. I have no further questions to put to this specific witness, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?
MR MAPOMA: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou?
MR NDOU: None Honourable Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU
ADV SIGODI: Before the deceased was killed, you say that she was fetched by a large crowd of people, is that correct?
MR MUENDA: Yes, that is true.
ADV SIGODI: And then after questioning her, in paragraph 23 you decided to kill her. What questions were put to her before she was killed?
MR MUENDA: The questions were to indicate for us the persons she practised witchcraft with and then she didn't respond to that, because the crowd started to attack her.
ADV SIGODI: Was that the only question that was put to her, to indicate who were the other people that she practised witchcraft with?
MR MUENDA: Yes, I remember that one only.
ADV SIGODI: And she was never asked as to why she had killed the Katchela?
MR MUENDA: No, time didn't allow us there, because the crowd was emotional.
ADV SIGODI: So how do you justify the fact that "we decided to kill her as we viewed her as one of the people who did not want those who challenged the authority of the then ruling National Party government"?
MR MUENDA: We have used the information that we had from Albert Maphaha because he was coming from the bone thrower.
ADV SIGODI: Yes, but you never gave her a chance to state why she killed the deceased, she never gave you that reason?
MR MUENDA: The problem there was that the crowd was emotional and it was no longer prepared to listen, but if it was myself, I would have allowed her to explain that.
ADV SIGODI: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR NDOU: I now call Aubrey Mokaleng
