MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chairperson. I now call Mmbengeni Mutali. You'll notice that this applicant is the applicant who was released early in January and we were looking for him and we couldn't find him until one of his relatives traced him and brought him. He is back here.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, we notice that an application for attempted murder has been made by this applicant?
MR NDOU: Yes that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the position?
MR NDOU: That is the position.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mutali, what language would you prefer to use?
MR MUTALI: Venda.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you any objections to taking the oath?
MMBENGENI MUTALI: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
Mr Mutali, when were you born?
MR MUTALI: On the 10th July 1971.
MR NDOU: I see. Now you've brought an application for amnesty in respect of the attempted murder on Mr Limvumu, is that correct?
MR MUTALI: Yes it's true.
MR NDOU: Now you've heard Mmabatho Mulaudzi giving evidence, is that correct?
MR MUTALI: Yes it's true.
MR NDOU: And now we understand that on that day you were also present there, is that right?
MR MUTALI: Yes it's true.
MR NDOU: Now what role did you play on that particular day?
MR MUTALI: On that day it was on the 2nd February 1990. By then we were in the ground, playing field, where there was a meeting.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Could I just enquire, you've heard her evidence? Do you agree with everything that she said?
MR MUTALI: Yes I agree with all that she has said.
JUDGE DE JAGER: In your mind, why did you participate in killing the deceased?
MR MUTALI: I participated in attempting to murder the person or the deceased because I was falling under Chinga Youth Congress which was intending to do so. Usually or normally I used to attend the meetings of that organisation.
JUDGE DE JAGER: And what did you think the deceased had done wrong?
MR MUTALI: The wrong which the deceased had done was that the deceased was a witch and that the deceased was practising a bad traditional healing methods in the community, more especially towards us, the youth.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Why do you say he practised a bad medicine, what did he do that was so bad? Because some people are doing good things, some bad, what did he do that you considered to be bad medicine tradition?
MR MUTALI: I was born being a typical Venda person and I know that there are different kinds of mutis.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, but what did he do, why was he labelled a bad person?
MR MUTALI: Mr Limvumu truly was collaborating with the people who were working in the previous government.
JUDGE DE JAGER: And were you against the previous government?
MR MUTALI: Yes I was opposing it since I was there, supporter of the ANC although it was banned by then.
JUDGE DE JAGER: And in killing Mr Limvumu did you think that you would enhance the case of the ANC and change the government?
MR MUTALI: Yes.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you.
MR NDOU: Now what role did you play on the day in question?
MR MUTALI: The day on which the deceased was killed, what I did is this. I was in a guard standing next to my sister who is Mulatu, a distance which is about 15 metres from the home of the deceased. When the group entered the house of the deceased and started to attack the deceased, within 15 minutes the one called Popular went home and fetched a tyre and petrol. On arriving with those things she gave me that tyre and petrol - and paraffin. There at the home of the deceased, the crowed grabbed the deceased out of the house and then they made him lie on the footpath next to the gate leading to his home. The deceased was no longer alive by then and then I moved away from the guard and I took that paraffin and a tyre to the direction of the deceased who was already dead by then. What I did is this. I took the tyre and put it on top of the body of the deceased and then asked for a match from the people who were standing behind me and then I lit. After lighting the match, then I ran away to the direction where Popular was standing and then we dispersed in running. That is what happened.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Do you want to say anything to the family of the deceased?
MR MUTALI: Yes. I'm humbling myself seeing Ms Wandele Limvumu and her mother there, I don't recall her name. I'm so sorry, I humble myself before you and before this Committee with all the wrongs that I have done during those days whereby the country was in turmoil and everything was not in order. But looking now, I realise that the situation is different from that one of the past, so I humble myself in the light that by then I was still young although there was some objective we were intending to meet, just like the changes which are now at the moment. With these few words I humble myself before you saying that please forgive me for all the wrongs I've done in the past. I thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any further questions?
MR NDOU: Nothing more.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG: This bad medicine practises that the deceased and other witches used at the time, could you see this working, could you see those bad practises working in the community?
MR MUTALI: Yes.
MR VAN RENSBURG: How?
MR MUTALI: It can't whether to myself or Mr Ndou, if I don't want Mr Ndou to occupy his post now, it's possible that I can go to a traditional healer who is involved in witchcraft and receive the medicine which I can use it against Mr Ndou as he is here and it's possible that Ndou might lose balance as he is or rather lost his job and that those ...(indistinct) oppressing the rights of another person by using that muti or medicine. What is most important here, we know that this is related to jealousy so that those people who would be jealous that they didn't want you to work, to occupy the post they're occupying and sometimes, just like myself as I am here, I can go to the traditional healer so that I can have a medicine or muti which can protect me against other or bad omens at my workplace and that there are other medicines or mutis that can be used to heal ones wound and which is traditional muti or traditional medicine and these medicines are different.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG
MR MAPOMA: I have no questions, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
MR NDOU: Nothing more, Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU
CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.
MR MUTALI: I also thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Any witnesses, Mr Ndou?
MR NDOU: No further witnesses.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg?
MR VAN RENSBURG: No witnesses, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?
MR MAPOMA: No witnesses, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg, have you got any submissions to make?
MR VAN RENSBURG: In this specific instance I leave it in the hands of the Committee and I have no further submissions to make.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van Rensburg. We don't need any submissions neither from you, Mr Ndou. What's the next one?
MR MAPOMA: The next one is incident number 3, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg, you're excused for the day then. Can we perhaps start? I don't know how long tomorrow's matter is going to start but we're hoping to finish at about 11 tomorrow. If we start 9 o'clock, do you think we can manage to finish the case? Okay, then we'll adjourn till 9 o'clock tomorrow. You're excused.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
