Amnesty Hearings

MR MEYER:: Mr Chairman my, the next applicant is Director Ramaligela.

CHAIRPERSON:: I call a person who's name is on the list here as number four. Mr Ramaligela do you have any objection to taking the oath.

MR MEYER:: If I can just interrupt Mr Chairman, Mr Ramaligela would like to make use of the interpreter.

CHAIRPERSON:: Certainly. Would you put on the device? Mr Ramaligela do you have any, do you have any objection to taking the oath?

MR RAMALIGELA:: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON:: Mr Meyer?

EXAMINATION BY MR MEYER:: Thank you Mr Chairman. Director Ramaligela would you just state for the record your current occupation and where do you reside.

MR RAMALIGELA:: I am currently working in the Provincial, as a Provincial Inspector. I am residing at Darwana, meanwhile I am based in Pietersburg.

MR MEYER:: Are you a member of the South African Police services this stage.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

MR MEYER:: Now, Director is it correct that during 1981 you were a member of the Venda National Force?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

MR MEYER:: And which branch of the Venda National Force were you with?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Security Branch.

MR MEYER:: You mean to say the Security Branch of the police department.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

MR MEYER:: Is it correct that you were involved in the investigation of the Sibasa police station that took place in October 1981?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

MR MEYER:: What was your rank at that stage?

MR RAMALIGELA:: I was a Captain.

MR MEYER:: Now we already have evidence on record that the police station was attacked on the 26th of October 1981, who originally was in charge of the investigation of that attack?

MR RAMALIGELA:: It was Captain Sifuwa who was in charge, I was also personally in charge.

MR MEYER:: Is it correct that Warrant Officer Managa and Constable Nesamari was also involved?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

MR MEYER:: You say that both you and the captain you referred to were in charge. Just explain to us what you mean by that.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, all that I want to say is that I just want to present the Chairperson with this information that the late Sifuwa was the one who was quite responsible and I was working under him.

MR MEYER:: Was it correct that you were responsible for the arrests of the detainees which are listed also in your statement in paragraph 15, page 62 of the bundle.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

MR MEYER:: Were you involved in the investigation of the attack from the beginning?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

MR MEYER:: Now, it is common cause really that most of the people listed in paragraph 15 were members or employees of the Lutheran Church except for the last two. How, why were these people arrested and detained?

MR RAMALIGELA:: As we were busy investigating we discovered that there was quite a good evidence that these people were responsible in helping in moving or transporting these people who bombed the police station. And also to take them, convey them to their next destination.

MR MEYER:: What information did you have regarding the people listed in 15.6 and 15.7, Mamela and Ravele?

MR RAMALIGELA:: 15.6 we discovered that Mr Mamela was one, he was a prosecutor and on the same day that we heard that it was discovered that he went there and he went there to investigate just to see as to how many people were in the police station, the policemen.

MR MEYER:: And with regard to Ravele?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Mr Ravele started off by saying he personally presented himself to the late Sifuwa and gave him the detonator of a hand grenade and said that he found it from the mountain, from the people who helped him.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: May I interpose Mr Meyer? Are you saying that you knew about Mr Ravele’s alleged involvement prior to him being detained by you? Or this is information which came to light after his arrest and detention?

MR RAMALIGELA:: That was before the arrest that we didn't know anything about him. It was he himself personally who came to us as somebody who was presenting information to us.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: You say he volunteered this information to the police?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Without having been arrested at all.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: When was this?

MR RAMALIGELA:: That was after the bombing of the police station. As matters were still just like that we heard that on the other side where Ravele stayed there was a gun explosion. I personally together with Mr Managa went to this man's place. On arrival we found him and took him from his home towards the office just to prove that he was personally volunteering to work with us. On questioning him and looking at him we suspected that he could have been the one who was responsible but he denied that he did, we could realise that he had a scar or a mark, a burning mark on the arm. That was when we wanted to ask further more. It came to my realisation that it was him who knew exactly where the gun exploded and the mark was a direct evidence of the gun.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: How did it come to your realisation that he was the one that was involved? Is that what he volunteered to you? Is that what you mean when you say he volunteered this information when he had been taken from his home to the police station and was being questioned by you?

MR RAMALIGELA:: It was immediately after we had taken him to the police station and we knew that he was ready to help us and he could tell us, lead us into the evidence and we didn't want to interrogate him from his home, because everybody will be able to see that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: How did you know that he was ready to help you?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well I can't recall vividly because he just showed that he was ready as Mr Mmbengeni he only brought the detonator and he showed that he had that willingness to commit himself to bring that detonator to us. As such that we could just conclude that he was ready to help us.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: You may proceed Mr Meyer.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Immediately after that we realised that he was now, he wasn't ready to co-operate with us and I personally...

MR MEYER:: If I can interrupt you Director. I don't think it is necessary to give us the whole background of Mr Ravele’s arrest. Let's go back to the people of the church. What was you information regarding the political affiliation or sympathy of these people?

MR RAMALIGELA:: With regard to the church people I didn't personally know where they were politically affiliated, however, as I checked from the Security Branch I realised that there were files on what we were doing, but I did not know them personally except Mr Mahamba whom I stayed with at ...(indistinct). The arrest while I couldn't personally say exactly I only read from the office because I went in 1979 there the Security Branch and I was able to discover that they were involved, especially Dean Farisani's file Posiwa. I couldn't see much from Posiwa’s file. Or I couldn't see a file from Posiwa’s side. From then as we were investigating we discovered that there were some two people who went to Mr Posiwa’s place who wanted some kind of help with regard to transport to the bombing of the police station. Mr Posiwa then took them to Mr Mahamba at Kwendo area, from there they arranged to have a meeting and a van was provided to convey these people to the police station and it was also arranged furthermore that Mr Chikororo would be able to help with his kombi. And as we discovered we realised that it was actually very true that Mr Chikororo's kombi was responsible and also Mr Ravele was responsible in helping, so was the case with Mr Poswana, he was involved with arrangement. As regard to Mr Dean Farisani it is true that I saw Dean Farisani at Louis Trichardt on the day that the incident took place. We even greeted each other and we exchanged words to the effect that he said he was going to Johannesburg. However as we were investigating or interrogating, these people confirmed that Dean Farisani knew about it, although on the day of the bombing of the police station he wasn't around. He knew something about it, about the arrangement of the helping the freedom fighters. It was then, in fact I can say that these people were arrested on different occasions. What I can say just to add on that adding to the list from 15.1 Mr Mahamba was arrested and sent to Tzanani, I can't recall the dates exactly as to when was a particular person arrested. Mr Mahamba was never charged as we know that he is a cripple. As regards to 15.2 Phineas Mboleni Posiwa I personally assaulted him very much.

MR MEYER:: Before we get to that, were you involved personally in the arrests of all these seven people, or only some of them?

MR RAMALIGELA:: It's only 15.5 and 15.6 that I wasn't responsible in the arrest. However, the rest I was.

MR MEYER:: Now after they had been arrested what happened to them?

MR RAMALIGELA:: We interrogated them there and then.

MR MEYER:: What was the aim of you interrogation?

MR RAMALIGELA:: We wanted to ascertain much information on what exactly happened so that we should charge them and they must be sent to court in regard to what they did.

MR MEYER:: Did you want to extract confessions from them?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes. We wanted them to confess so that they could be sent to the magistrate, so that there should be a written of oath, there should be a confession rather. The two did write the confession in statement, namely Mr Posiwa and Mr Poswana.

MR MEYER:: Alright, we'll get to that in a while. Now with regard to the interrogations, were you personally involved with the interrogations of all the detainees?

MR RAMALIGELA:: I wasn't actually involved in all of them. I was involved in as far as Mr Mahamba, Posiwa, Poswana and Mr...(indistinct) and Ravele ...(indistinct).

MR MEYER:: Could you just mention those, you said you were involved with Mahamba, Posiwa ...

MR RAMALIGELA:: 15.1, 15.2, 15.3, 15.4 and 15.7.

MR MEYER:: Now during the interrogations you used methods which are, to call it unconventional might be a bit of an understatement, what took place during these interrogations and what did you do that you are asking amnesty for?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Mr Meyer, maybe to make it easier for your client shouldn't you just request him to relate what kind of assault he committed in respect of those he is admitting to have assaulted? Probably would be much easier, then he can give a description of what he did to that particular person.

MR MEYER:: I'll do so Mr Chairman. Alright, Director let's start with Mr Mahamba, number 15.1. Can you explain to the panel what methods you used. Did you torture him, did you assault him etc?

MR RAMALIGELA:: With regard to 15.1, Mr Mahamba, there was no particular method that we use in regard to torture. We only talked to him about, you normally say to us this ...(indistinct) and all those things, we do agree.

With regard to 15.2, Mr Posiwa, I used one particular method of him standing for quite a long time without sitting down. I assaulted him, I hit him, using the open hand. I used my fist on his stomach.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Used you fist where?

CHAIRPERSON:: Stomach.

MR RAMALIGELA:: On stomach, yes.

MR MEYER:: You mention in you application that you made him do frog-jumps. Can you explain to the panel what that means?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes. From there I also used the bag full of water and put it on his head. On that bag I....

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: He's not answering your question. You must listen to what your counsel is saying. What do you mean when you say you made him to frog-jump? That's what he wants you to explain to us.

MR RAMALIGELA:: With regard to frog-jump, you know one would squat down with hands above, jumping forward and leaping forward. Do you want me to demonstrate perhaps?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Yes.

MR RAMALIGELA:: This is how I did. This is how they would do it for quite a long time.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Now when you say for quite a long time can you give an approximation of how many minutes it took for you to order him to do that? I mean how long he had to do those frog-jumps?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well I can't really tell you exactly how many minutes, because I wasn't actually looking at the watch, but I could see that it was quite a long time, which could not be less that five minutes.

CHAIRPERSON:: Just for the record, the witness demonstrated a frog-jump by getting down in a squatting position with both his hands above his head and then keeping the legs bent jumping up and down on the same spot keeping both hands extended above his head.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes for the record, thank you.

MR MEYER:: You were busy also testifying about water and the hood that you placed over his head and so on.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes. Well I put water, you know put the bag on him and put some water on him.

MR MEYER:: Just explain to the panel, what was the aim of putting the hood over his face? What was it made of, and how exactly did you go about using that as a method.

MR RAMALIGELA:: That bag, I will normally put that bag in water and just hold on the neck, just to suffocate them, so that they will come to the truth.

MR MEYER:: Am I correct, do I understand you correctly then, that when you put this hood over the person's head that he is unable to breath?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes. It was difficult to breath. One will suffocate.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Are you saying that you put the bag over one's face and you then put the hood, or you mean a hood?

MR MEYER:: Yes. It is not a bag first and then a hood. It's referred to as a hood, but it is in a form of a bag.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Is it what is commonly known among the Security Branch circles as a white-bag method? Is it similar?

MR MEYER:: I didn't catch that word, excuse me.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: The white-bag method.

MR MEYER:: I'm uncertain. I don't know the term myself.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: If Mr Ramaligela you could just explain to us how this bag method was used. Would you put water - would you submerge it in the water first before putting over somebody's face?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well normally that was the situation. One will put water after putting on the head, or alternatively, the other way round. However, in this particular case, I put it on his head and put water on top.

CHAIRPERSON:: This is a material bag, made out of material, or is it plastic or leather?

MR RAMALIGELA:: It is just made out of cotton. It is just an ordinary cotton - made out of cotton.

CHAIRPERSON:: Thank you. Mr Meyer?

MR MEYER:: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Furthermore, the very same Mr Posiwa, I used an electricity shock, which shocked him on his ears and then I made winding, sort of like winding it. Well, he then requested that I should really leave him because he was going to say the truth.

MR MEYER:: I just want you to explain in a bit more detail about how this shock treatment was done. Were the electrodes attached to which parts of his body were they attached and how exactly then did you then apply the electricity to his body?

MR RAMALIGELA:: It was attached to the ears and is just like a pegs form, two pegs, which are attached to the ears, and then I will really wind.

CHAIRPERSON:: When you were doing this were the other members of the investigation team present, some or all of them? Or were you alone, one on one, just you and Mr Posiwa?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, I was doing that with Mr Managa and Mr Nesamari. There were three.

MR MEYER:: Before you continue with any of the other victims, can you remember clearly how often these assaults and torture methods took place and when you applied these methods to which of the victims, or not?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, I can't really recall as to how often. However, with regard to particular people, especially when we are looking for absolute truth, it will also depend on what the person was saying, we will really insist kicking the person, doing all sorts of things.

CHAIRPERSON:: I notice, Director if you take a look at page 63 of your documents, paragraph 35 particularly of your application, when you're describing what you did to the various victims. Referring to Mr Posiwa, you say you slapped him with open hands, punched him with fists, he was also kicked, mostly I made him stand up for long periods, and he was also ordered to do frog-jumps', but you make no mention of the electric shock method. Is there any reason for that omission, or can you explain the omission?

MR RAMALIGELA:: With regard to ... It is true I wrote it the way it was, but when it comes to electric shock, it just slipped my mind. I just don't want to leave anything, I want to say everything that I did.

ADV BOSMAN:: How about the water over the head, that's also not mentioned in 35?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, that is why I am admitting that I didn't say that I could have forgotten that. However, as it happened a long time ago, I just want to say everything in detail as to every person was involved.

CHAIRPERSON:: Are you just saying that the admission is just because at the time of making the statement you didn't recall it and you have recalled it subsequently?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes, I recall subsequently.

MR MEYER:: Thank you Director. The next person you dealt with then is Mr Mahamba.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Mr Meyer, may I interpose? Are you now sure over having taken some time to think about this incident? You have now recollected and your recollection is much better.....

(Problems with the sound system)

CHAIRPERSON:: I think if we could just have a five-minutes adjournment, and I've also had a request from someone to have an adjournment. If they could just take a look at the sound system.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON:: .... Khampepe when we adjourned was putting something to the witness or asking a question of the witness.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Mr Ramaligela, have I pronounced it properly?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: I want to take it that you have had time to recollect the events properly, pertinently with regard to the assault on Mr Posiwa?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: The assault that you omitted in your written application you've now been able to cover when you give your viva voce evidence, shortly before we adjourned, am I correct in assuming so?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: What I want to find out is what would be your response if evidence was to surface through Ms Mtanga, or that you might have used electrodes not only on the earlobes of Mr Posiwa, but also on his private parts, would you dispute that?

MR RAMALIGELA:: There in the private parts, I don't agree, what I know that I used them, I used electricity in the ears and in the toes.

CHAIRPERSON:: So you are saying the ears and the toes?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes, in the toes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: See you had not mentioned the toes before. You only made mention of the earlobes. It is important for us to know the ... (Mr Ramaligela interjects) ... Just wait for me to finish. It is important for us - this is the important aspect of your evidence. It is important for us to know exactly how you assaulted Mr Posiwa for you to be able to satisfy the requirement of full disclosure.

So, you are now saying you also used electrodes on the toes as well but not on his private parts?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Did you at any stage put irons on his hands, thereby hand-cuffing him during the application of the bag method?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes. I thought I'm still continuing to explain what I did in Mr Posiwa. I've not yet finished.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Oh, the reason why I was asking this was because I thought you were now proceeding to give an explanation on Mr Poswana. That's what Mr Meyer was about to ask you. That's when I requested for an interposition. If that is so then, I may have made a mistake and I will allow you to proceed to give a full explanation on how you assaulted Mr Posiwa.

MR RAMALIGELA:: I thank you. As I continue, this Mr Posiwa, I hand-cuffed him by iron in the hand and in the legs and I insert a broom-stick with two table, others in the front and then we hold it together and then we put him on top of the table.

?:: Is that the so-called helicopter method.

MR RAMALIGELA:: I'm not sure of the name. It is some of the things that we've used, but I don't know it's name.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: When you say you inserted a broom-stick, where did you insert it?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Between the hands and the legs where we have hand cuffed with irons, and then we insert the broom-stick inside.

We then hang him pouring water on his head so that he can tell the truth of what we were searching for. He then said to me he understands, he wants to tell me the truth. Is then that we take him down and take him to Mr Ramushwana to say this man is now prepared to tell the truth.

CHAIRPERSON:: Did you at any stage ask him or instruct him to say things that you wanted him to say? In other words to make a statement that is more your statement, or partly your statement rather than his own statement?

MR RAMALIGELA:: I don't remember that incident where I asked him to go and tell Mr Ramushwana this or that, but what was investigating was for him to tell what he did, and I didn't advise him to say anything.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Now over a period of how long did this torture as you have now explained continue?

MR RAMALIGELA:: It might have took, but normally I didn't check the watch, but his assault should have taken about two-and-a-half hours.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: So, was this done in one day, or when you say two-and-a-half hours you are actually adding up all the many minutes in the many days that the assault or torture took place?

MR RAMALIGELA:: In Mr Posiwa, we questioned him for about two days. In everyday, in each day there could be two-and-a-half hours.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Yes you may continue.

MR RAMALIGELA:: What he talked with Mr Ramushwana I didn't know. I can only continue with Mr Poswana.

MR MEYER:: Before you do that Director, not only with regard to Mr Posiwa, the detainees that were arrested and detained, were they detained in one place all the time or were they moved around?

MR RAMALIGELA:: They were normally not put in the same place, but they were not put in a group. One should be arrested and placed in Guyani and the other one placed in Vuyani and in Sibasa, and sometimes we used to take them and come and interrogate them in our office.

MR MEYER:: Was there a specific reason why they were moved around?

MR RAMALIGELA:: The idea of putting them to different places was to make sure that when we ask another person the other person mustn't relate the same story to make that we didn't get the truth. We tried to find information from a person at Chitali and find information from another person in Vuyani, but look into them they were the same to confirm that they are telling the truth.

MR MEYER:: With regard to - you have now spoken about the fact that the detainees were held in different centres. But with regard to each individual detainee, was such a person also kept in one place since the day of his arrest or was he also moved from one place to another?

MR RAMALIGELA:: We don't let the person to stay in one place the same time, but we used to take him to other places with the idea that where he is be removed from other place might assist him in his mind to tell the truth because he is being transferred now and again.

MR MEYER:: So are you saying that it was also with the idea of, let's call it to disrupt this detainee also with the idea of getting him to co-operate?

MR RAMALIGELA:: In looking into that it was a matter of assaulting or torturing.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: You are basically saying it was some kind of emotional torture, just moving him around and getting him to be interrogated by different people, is not so?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes, it's true.

MR MEYER:: Director you were on the point of moving on to the next detainee who was assaulted by you. Which one of them are you going to testify about?

MR RAMALIGELA:: It's 15.3, Mdangani Petrus Poswana.

MR MEYER:: In your statement you mentioned that he was assaulted in a similar fashion as Posiwa. Is that correct?

MR RAMALIGELA:: It's true. He was arrested by myself and then I assault and detained him, and I have tortured him just like Mr Posiwa.

MR MEYER:: Did you use the same methods exactly as you used with Mr Posiwa? Did you maybe not use some of the methods that you used on Mr Posiwa, or did you add anything that you hadn't done to Mr Posiwa, or was it generally the same treatment?

MR RAMALIGELA:: In Mr Posiwa, it was different because of time, but the ways I've used were the same. With Mr Poswana, time was longer because he was refusing that he didn't do anything. Then we tortured him now and again, beating him thoroughly.

MR MEYER:: And just to make it complete that you also used the shock treatment on him and the hood and the broom-stick methods?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes, broom-stick was also used.

MR MEYER:: Did you use electric shock treatment on him.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

MR MEYER:: Did you use the method where you put the hood over his head and where you put water over him?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

MR MEYER:: With regard to Reverend or Dean Farisani, what methods of interrogation did you use as far as he is concerned?

MR RAMALIGELA:: In Mr Farisani, we started by, we started as Masisi. We arrested him. I went there with Mr Managa, and we interrogated him and he said he knows nothing. We started to hit him by fist. Then in the office where we were interrogating him, there was a hood and then I push him in his chest and then he got knocked with the wall and then I hit him at the back. From there we kept on beating him. He fell down, we kicked him and we found that it's better to take him and then we ask, we'll take him next to us so that we can interrogate him, and then we take him to my office.

On our arrival, the next day, we call him to interrogate him. Dean refused that of course he knew nothing, but of course I saw him in Louis Trichardt and then we exchanged words there. As we continue there, I realised that it's better to intimidate him, because there was a boiling kettle, we pour water and then it was red boiling and then I said I want to pour water through is anus. And then he said, "No don't do that, I will tell you the truth." Then he continued to deny, and then I shocked him with electricity, winding all over his body. But where I can ask something I'm now telling the honest truth. There is no incident in which we took electricity shock to the private parts.

Torturing of Dean was different from the others because we intimidate him by the boiling kettle and hitting him by the stick. The rest which I mentioned to Posiwa and Poswana also happened to Dean.

CHAIRPERSON:: Sorry before you proceed Mr Meyer, just to get back with Mr Poswana you said with Mr Posiwa there were just the three of you present when he was tortured. With Mr Poswana who was present besides yourself if anybody. With Mr Poswana and once you have told that, then if you could say who was present with the Dean Farisani when he was tortured.

MR RAMALIGELA:: I was with Mr Managa and Mr Nesamari. CHAIRPERSON: Was that with Mr Poswana when you were torturing?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes, I was still with those two men I have mentioned, Mr Managa and Mr Nesamari.

CHAIRPERSON:: And with the Dean Farisani?

MR RAMALIGELA:: They were present. Apart from at Masisi, Mr Nesamari was not there.

MR MEYER:: Just to take you back, sorry to interrupt your thought, you said with regard to Mr Posiwa the questioning or you questioned him for about two days. Is that correct?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes, with regard to Mr Posiwa it took about two days, with regard to Posiwa it was a similar period of time because there was no agreement.

MR MEYER:: Are you referring to Poswana that was also two days.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes, the same happened to Posiwa and Poswana, it was two days each.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Didn't you say in your evidence before that you tortured Poswana much longer because you couldn't extract the information.

MR RAMALIGELA:: What I said that with regard to Mr Poswana there was a similar time because there was no, not much information that was extracted.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Meaning therefor that you tortured him for longer than two days? I mean, more than two and a half hours a day.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: But you still tortured him within two days.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

MR MEYER:: Can you tell us how long in the case of Mr Poswana, how long per day did you use, approximately if you can remember.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well I can't recall as to how long from the morning up to what time, but I can remember that it was two days and as we were torturing Mr Poswana there was quite a bit of a lengthy period of time.

MR MEYER:: And with regard to Dean Farisani? Can you tell us if you can remember how long his interrogation took?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, approximately when we were at Masisi we started around after lunch up to around four o'clock or five o'clock and then subsequently approximately three hours. Then we went straight away in the evening to an area which is quite close to us and I think with regard to time it was a very long period of time. I can't tell exactly how different it was with regard to, in comparison to Poswana’s time.

MR MEYER:: With regard to Dean Farisani, was it also over a period of more that one day that he was interrogated, or did it all happen on one day?

MR RAMALIGELA:: With regard to Dean Farisani it was three days because we started at Masisi, then we went straight away to our offices in Sibasa and then back to the cell and then we took him again on the following day. It was three days with regard to Mr Farisani.

MR MEYER:: Still with Dean Farisani, there was evidence led before the, a different committee, the Gross Human Rights Violations Committee, that he was made to stand on his head. Do you remember anything of that sort?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Oh yes, I can recall that. We made him to stand on his head when were at Masisi, again we asked him to do the frog-jumping, but this is exactly what I instructed him to do.

MR MEYER:: Did you use electric shock treatment on him?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Oh yes.

MR MEYER:: And the method of the water and the hood over his head?

MR RAMALIGELA:: That method too.

MR MEYER:: And the method where you put the broom-sticks through the cuff's, did you use that on Dean Farisani?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Only once and the stick just got broken and we couldn't continue with this kind of method.

MR MEYER:: Then if we can move on to the next point....

CHAIRPERSON:: Sorry Mr Meyer just before you move on, do you know whether Dean Farisani was taken for medical treatment?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well I heard about that. The fact that he was taken ...(indistinct) hospital.

CHAIRPERSON:: And did General Ramushwana speak to you at all in regard to Dean Farisani, to say 'lay off him' or 'hold back on him, don't hurt him'?

MR RAMALIGELA:: He said that after he had already been taken to the hospital, we were told that no we should not continue with the deed.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Flowing from that, during your interrogation of Mr Farisani, did you make Mr Ramushwana aware of the methods you were applying, during your interrogation?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, we could not communicate that to him, because it was our own discretion.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: You did not discuss the methods you were using on any of the suspects with your superiors.

MR RAMALIGELA:: I can't recall telling him exactly as to how we were dealing with the suspects. However what I knew is that he wouldn't agree to that kind of methodology.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: You say he would have agreed had he know.

MR RAMALIGELA:: I can't tell exactly if he will agree but I think with regard to our etiquette if one is doing such a false or wrong etiquette, one wouldn't really consult a senior.

ADV BOSMAN:: May I just ask, while you were torturing any of these three victims, did the General enter the office where you were doing the torturing at all?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, he will frequently come around as we're interrogating.

ADV BOSMAN:: Can you remember what he saw? Can you remember what you were doing at the times when he was present?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, the office, there were windows and we would be able to see that he was coming and then we could just suspend what we were doing.

ADV BOSMAN:: Thank you, you may continue.

MR MEYER:: Thank you. If we can move then on to Mr Ravele. You also said in your statement that he was assaulted in the same manner as Mr Posiwa. Can you expand on that, what methods did you use on him?

MR RAMALIGELA:: With regard to Mr Ravele, there was no difference up to the time when we went to his place. With regard to the matters, we use the same ideology of threatening just to hit him we're using our bare hands and fist, and we also hanged him using some kind irons and broom-stick. With regard to electrifying shock we couldn't use in Mr Ravele’s case because he confessed immediately and he took us to the place where there was an AK47. We were able to dig it up.

MR MEYER:: Did you in fact find an AK47?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes, he was able and there were bullets as well and also magazines for missiles.

MR MEYER:: Where did you find that?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Right in his own house, it was still a new house. He was able to dig and then extract those things.

MR MEYER:: Can you remember in the case of Mr Ravele you said that he co-operated immediately. How long were you busy with him before he gave his co-operation? Can you remember if, if you can't remember just say so.

MR RAMALIGELA:: What I can recall that he said to us, after we had beaten him, but he said he didn't want to be tortured continuously, it is better for him to be taken to the place where there were, this other ammunition or gun. Then I arranged with the mobile police, and we went to the mountain. We found some 'doppies' of the hand grenade, while he did say that no, these things were no longer there, they could have been taken. From there we took him back and just charge him from the charge, the court. That was on the basis of him being found in possession of those AK47's just to help the freedom fighters.

MR MEYER:: Okay, let's move on then to Mr Chikororo. You said in your statement that you never assaulted him. Is that in fact so?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well it is true I didn't really charged Mr Mamela and Mr Chikororo.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: May I find out if you never charged Mr Chikororo and Mr Mamela, why you even mentioned them in your application? Why was there need for you to say something about them?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, let me say with regard to Dean Farisani, Mr Mamela, Mr Chikororo and Mr Poswana. They were not charged. I am quite sure that Mr Ramushwana did explain that these people had already been beaten and we could see taking them to court, it was going to really disappoint us. But I don't think really, I think I might have forgotten that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: You may proceed Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER:: Thank you Mr Chairman. When after the police station had been bombed, the people you were trying to find, to arrest, were they only the people who were directly involved in the attack, in other words, the people who shot the firearms and shot rockets etc. or were you also trying to find anyone who was involved?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well we were looking for people who helped the in bombers and those who bombed. We were looking for both those kind of categories.

MR MEYER:: What was your instructions from your seniors with regard to the solving, if I can call it that, of this attack on the police station.

MR RAMALIGELA:: The instruction came, well I didn't really have a direct access to the President, that it came directly from Mr Ramushwana that you know people wanted these people to be brought to books. The old man referring to the late President Mr Mpepu.

MR MEYER:: You said in your statement in paragraph 42 you mentioned that, 'I can safely say that no person was ever seriously assaulted, no person ever had serious wounds inflicted or even medical treatment.' Could you just explain to us why you made such an allegation in that statement?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well these information that is in my statement, well I couldn't say much on the people who were taken to the hospital or who had, however today after I have submitted a statement I realised that I lied, it is better for me today before this committee just to say exactly what I did on these people.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Why did you have to say that in your application form knowing that you are applying for amnesty and the primary condition for satisfying the amnesty, the granting of amnesty is that you must tell the truth. Why did you think that you have not seriously assaulted the people when you knew then, that you had assaulted them in the manner that you have described to this committee, which cannot be described as just serious, I mean minor injuries that was sustained by the victims which were under your hands.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Chairperson, I think on my own I just want to again apologise for having omitted the few things in my statement. However what I want to say now even if it is not written in the statement is exactly how I did it, and that is why I am apologising and I am sorry for not having mentioned it.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: I know. I want to know why, why did you do that knowing that telling the truth of your participation in these assaults were important. Why did you do that?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, I didn't do it deliberately. I just forgot about it and also, you know it happened a long time ago. However it came subsequently as I was thinking that I had to mention everything.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: I don't know whether you understand my question. My question is why should you ascribe the assaults that you committed on the victims as being minor when you yourself must have know that these were serious assaults?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, somehow you know, maybe it is also because personally these people were really frightened of us and they couldn't really tell us exactly where they were hurt.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Didn't you see blood flowing from some of the victims during the assault on them by amongst others yourself? In the case of Mr Farisani was he not hurt to an extent that he had to be taken to hospital, wasn't that information within your knowledge at the time when you completed this application form?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, I at the time when I was filling in my application form I had forgotten, but now it came to my mind again when I was filling in this form, no there was not much I didn't have a representative who was guiding me as to how serious the case was. Up to the time when I got this representative who is currently here who explained to us that now this is how things work. Well, I am just an ordinary person who was not quite aware as to how many, how things are done.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: The statement that appears on page 64, paragraph 42, where you say 'I can safely say that no person was ever seriously assaulted, no person ever had serious wounds inflicted or even needed medical treatment. Wasn't that statement told to the attorney who subsequently prepared this document?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, some of these things were taken before the legal representative. This application was done before our knowledge of the legal representative.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Was this not prepared by a lawyer? What I am reading to you, was this not prepared by a lawyer?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, after we had written these things before we got somebody to guide us and our legal representative wrote these things, anyway it is true that he is the one who wrote these things.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Yes, you were therefor legally assisted. Is it not so? That is why the state is paying for your legal representation so that you can be able to comply with the requirements of the act. You went on if you check, paragraph 49, you say 'I respectfully submit that none of the assaults were at all serious.' Now you are not speculating here, you are saying this as a fact as something that you know, that you remembered quite well. As mentioned before you proceed in paragraph 44, 'there was never any blood, serious injuries or necessity to receive medical treatment. I respectfully submit that there was no gross violation of human right'. Did you not say this? Are you saying your attorney put something that you never instructed him to put in your application form? This is a supplementary affidavit that was prepared by your attorney, Mr Ramaligela. You can't say that you were not legally advised. By this time when you completed this supplementary affidavit when you deposed to the supplementary affidavit, you had the benefit of a lawyer.

MR RAMALIGELA:: It is true, there was legal help. I admit that some of the things that I mentioned here were not enough that is why I am able to commit myself and also to correct what is written here, that it is not actually true, I am just trying to add on what happened subsequently as I did explain today.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Why did you not say that people received medical attention if something that was within you at the time when you consulted with your lawyer?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Let's say that Chairperson, well it could have just come to my attention at the time, however what I am explaining today is exactly what I did.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: You are not responding to my question. At the time when you completed this application form, at the time when you deposed to this documentary affidavit, you must have been told that the condition of being granted amnesty is full disclosure.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes, I was told about that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: You had a time to reflect on what you had completed when you previously completed your written application form, which appears on the previous pages. Am I correct in assuming that? You completed this on the 9th of November 1996. Subsequently, your attorney's caused a supplementary affidavit, a supplementary affidavit to be completed, on your behalf. As a result let me remind you, as a result of enquiries that came from our office they requested for further particulars.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Now why did you then lie and say there was never any blood, nor serious injuries that necessitated medical treatment when you must have know then that people who were tortured by you did suffer serious injuries, that people who were tortured by you, ultimately had to go for medical treatment?

MR RAMALIGELA:: I admit that I didn't write these things and also my attorney told us that we should speak the truth. As a person I do realise that it is wrong, I shouldn't have said the way I said it and I do understand, Chairperson, that what I am explaining now is, with regard to the statement I did a serious omission, did make a serious omission.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: In your having to lie to your lawyer.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, perhaps I don't understand exactly what you, I am not saying I did lie, maybe it was just a serious omission somehow.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: You may proceed Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER:: Is it correct Mr Ramaligela that after you had deposed to this affidavit, signed in December 1997, if I am correct, did you have further consultations with your legal representative and your co-applicants?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes I do consult with the person who is next to me. In the first incidence I was consulting the person next to him. In their document I explained that this principle I mentioned I explained to them why I assaulted them and how I tortured them. On Friday I was with them, explained to them that there is something which we have omitted and I will explain that to the commission, and I explained to them which things were that and then is this that I am explaining here in front of this Commission.

MR MEYER:: Would you tell us what was your objective when you committed these assaults and tortures on the detainees.

MR RAMALIGELA:: My idea to assault these people was only to find the truth as to whether they involved themselves in the bombing of the police station.

MR MEYER:: Do you know what happened to the detainees later on after, or can you tell us which one of them were charged criminally and what was the outcome of those proceedings?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Some of them, except Reverend Posiwa -there are cases where we have drawn Posiwa went to court and he was found guilty by the court. Then further on Reverend Posiwa and Reverend Poswana and Dean Farisani and others who are appearing in 15.1 to 15.7, also make a civil charge against the government that they were assaulted and then we didn't appear before the court to give evidence, but we issued statements to say we know nothing about that, which is something which I feel I must also apply for amnesty for that, because I submitted a statement which is saying that I know nothing, but now I'm telling the truth.

CHAIRPERSON:: So is that civil litigation concluded, is it finished? Do you know? Do you know what happened with it - that case that the victims sued the government for damages?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes, it was completed, and in our ...(indistinct) as a government we didn't go to court. It was settled outside the court.

MR MEYER:: The statement you were referring to, is that the one appearing at page 102 of the bundle?

MR RAMALIGELA:: This is the statement I'm referring to.

MR MEYER:: And more specifically the part, the paragraph just above your signature or the one above that, the second last paragraph, 'Posiwa was not at any stage during his interrogation assaulted or ill-treated by anyone of us.'

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

MR MEYER:: What was the reason that you made the false statement?

MR RAMALIGELA:: The idea was that we will go to court and refuse that we assaulted them while we were interrogating them, and doing civil claim.

MR MEYER:: So do I understand you correctly, you wanted to defeat the civil claim at this stage already saying that they were not tortured or assaulted or ill-treated.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

MR MEYER:: Now Director if you, you have now testified before the panel on the acts that you committed and it's clear that you seriously assaulted the detainees, some of them, you tortured them. How do you feel about what you did as you sit here today?

MR RAMALIGELA:: From my heart, myself, as I'm now telling the truth, I am feeling that I have tortured other people severely, to such an extent that to all that I've mentioned and their families, I'm requesting that they let them forgive me. There was nothing that I was doing because I was intending to gain personally, but it was because of the deeds of the Government of the day.

Coming to Dr Farisani, I'm quite sure that truly he will forgive me, because I still remember that last week Tuesday he requested me to stand up while we were burying my brother that to tell in the public that I was being used by the previous government. Today, as he was speaking today, he said, 'we will be forgiving each other in Tzaneen on the 4th and 5th.'

MR MEYER:: Is there anything else you would like to say to the victims of the tortures and assaults?

MR RAMALIGELA:: There is nothing which I could say.

MR MEYER:: Nothing further at this stage. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON:: Thank you Mr Meyer. Mr van Rensburg are there any questions you would like to ask this applicant?

MR VAN RENSBURG:: Thank you Mr Chairman. I have no questions to this witness.

CHAIRPERSON:: Thank you Mr van Rensburg. Ms Mtanga, are there any questions you would like to ask this application?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA:: Yes, Chairperson. Thank you. Mr Ramaligela, I would like to ask a question regarding your torture of Mr Poswana, Reverend Poswana. Reverend Poswana has indicated that if a person walked into the interrogation room when you were interrogating him and torturing him, they would have found blood on his body and blood on the floor and hair on the floor. Where would that hair have come from?

MR RAMALIGELA:: I cannot understand your question properly. You said one person entered my room in which we were interrogating people, blood and hairs were found on the floor or this he came and found them in the office. I can't understand your question clearly.

MS MTANGA:: If a person walked in while you were interrogating Mr Poswana, the person would have found his blood, his hair on the floor, so I'm asking where would that hair have come from, because you haven't indicated here that you did anything to his hair?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well I can't recall exactly what was discovered, but anyway we used to beat them in that room. It is quite possible that the blood could have been evident.

CHAIRPERSON:: I think what he is getting at here, is it going to be put, Ms Mtanga, that Reverend Poswana had hair removed, bodily hair, either shaved or taken out of his body and it was lying on the ground, not just one little piece of hair, but a substantial amount of hair. Do you know anything about that? Was hair taken off his body either by shaving or pulling it or cutting it, do you know anything about the removal of hair from the body of Reverend Poswana during the course of the torturing?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes. Pardon me for that, yes we did pull his hair and we were just throwing them down. It is true.

MS MTANGA:: Where did you pull the hair from?

MR RAMALIGELA:: From the head. The top of his head or on the head.

MS MTANGA:: Mr Ramaligela, did you only pull the hair from his head only?

MR RAMALIGELA:: (Replied in Venda - no translation)

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: How was this hair pull out of his head? Can you explain?

MR RAMALIGELA:: He had long hair and we were just pulling and the beards were very long, and we just pulled, and struck, pushed him down.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: What did you use? Did you your hand?

MR RAMALIGELA:: We would use our hands.

MS MTANGA:: Would you agree that the same method of pulling hair was used on Mr Posiwa, and it has left a scar on his head?

MR RAMALIGELA:: I can't deny that, because I can't recall everything. We would use anything, any object that was quite closer to us just to torture them.

MS MTANGA:: You have also testified that Mr Poswana was interrogated and tortured for two days and on each day it was a maximum of two-and-a-half hours torture.

CHAIRPERSON:: I think he said it was longer than two-and-a-half. Posiwa was two-and-a-half and he said that the torturing of Reverend Farisani was longer than two-and-a-half, but also over two days, but longer sessions. He said he can't remember the exact length but it was longer.

MS MTANGA:: Your description of 'longer' for Mr Poswana’s torture, could it have been the whole day and partly the evening because that's his evidence he is going to be put to you?

MR RAMALIGELA:: We started in the morning and we had a break in the middle and then we went on after lunch, but I don't think it went up to four o'clock in the evening, I can't tell you exactly how many hours, because we were not making use of the watch then. I'm just speculating.

CHAIRPERSON:: Are you in a position to dispute what Reverend Poswana might say about the duration of the torture he received?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well I don't want to dispute that. What I do agree that he may say a different version, this is just what I did exactly on him.

MS MTANGA:: Mr Ramaligela, in your evidence regarding the applying of electrical shocks on the victims' bodies, you have denied that you used the shocks on their private parts. Do you still maintain this?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, on private parts I didn't use anything in that regard, but we could use that on other side of the body. With regard to private parts, that is quite respectful. Even though we knew that is quite a torture we respected that.

MS MTANGA:: You respected their private parts?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

MS MTANGA:: Do you deny that when you were torturing Dr Farisani you may him lie on his back with his hands up and legs up and you kicked him on his private parts, do you deny that?

MR RAMALIGELA:: With regard to Dean Farisani, yes, I kicked him on his ribs. Not on the private parts, I can't recall. Personally I am saying exactly what I did on my own.

CHAIRPERSON:: But it is being put to you now that Dean Farisani was made to lie on his back with his hands in the air and he was kicked in his private parts. That is being put to you. That is the instructions that Ms Mtanga has received from Dean Farisani who she is representing as a victim. Now what she is saying is, are her instructions correct? Do you deny that? Do you say "Well, I can't remember, I may have done that" or do you agree and say "yes I did do that"?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, I do remember, but I can't remember exactly that I went further towards to the private part. Yes I remember I did kick him, but I don't think really I remember very well.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: You have previously remembered that you kicked him on his back. Is it possible that you could have kicked him somewhere else other than his back, like his private parts?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, that is possible. It could have happened.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: How is it possible that you are able to recall certain things and are unable to recall others?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, as it happened, as I said it happened a long time ago and in those days when one was working under pressure one couldn't just really remember everything because there was pressure behind us. We were really asked as to what we were doing. I can't really locate this and say this is how happened chronologically as somebody who is relaxed.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: This was an important incident at the time, is it not so? The bomb being at Sibasa police station, it was one of the very first incident of violence as it were in this region. Is it not?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: So much so that there was pressure as usual alleged in your papers, to put to bear on you to leave no stone unturned in your investigation?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: And you recall exactly what you did to certain people in order to try and extract the information that was necessary for you to proceed with the charges that you wanted to prefer against them. In order to impress the authorities that you were effective. Is it not so?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Therefor it would be something that one would expect you to remember if you hit somebody in his private parts, unless it is something that you would do ordinarily.

MR RAMALIGELA:: With regard to the private part dealing, well yes, I can't say I did kick him or that, I can't remember exactly or which side of the body. I can't remember exactly.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Was kicking someone in his private parts a method that you would use ordinarily during your interrogation of suspects?

MR RAMALIGELA:: No.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Therefor if you had done it in this instance, it is something that you would have remembered.

MR RAMALIGELA:: I am not seriously denying that I did kick him, I might have kicked him even then, because one was cross you know, there was a onward progress report which was required at Thohoyandou and you know that was quite confusing.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Proceed Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA:: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Ramaligela in your evidence you have omitted the most important thing, about the tortures that you carried out on these victims, on this people, that when you effected, for each method you used there was a desired effect and you haven't explained to this committee what is it that would happen to the person and that would make him fear or get tired, especially the electric shock are being applied on people. Can you explain to this committee what was the effect of it on the body of the person being tortured?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, what we actually wanted was certain was that these people had to admit that they knew something so that we could charge them in court. The methods that we used was anybody at our disposal whether fists or bare hand, even the electricity, or electric shock.

MS MTANGA:: Mr Ramaligela I want you to explain to the committee the effect of the electrical shock on one's body when applied.

CHAIRPERSON:: Why do you use the electric method rather than the helicopter method or the wet bag method? What effect does the electric method have? That is what she wants to know.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, with regard to electric shock one realises that it does shock a person so that one realise that life is going and as such you know one comes with the correct evidence other than you know the ordinary helicopter method.

CHAIRPERSON:: The electric shock method as applied by yourself, did one person crank the handle and hold the device while another person move the electrodes over the body of the victim or did you attach the electrodes and then one person then just turns the handle? How did you do it?

MR RAMALIGELA:: We will just put it on the earlobes before winding. We can't put them on the - one would put them on the earlobe and the one will be on that side and then wind.

CHAIRPERSON:: Did you cover the electrodes with a wet cloth or did you just stick the electrodes on and then wind and if you didn't cover it, did it leave burn marks?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, we will cover with a wet cloth and put it on the earlobes even on other parts of the body we will the same.

CHAIRPERSON:: That's to stop the burn marks.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Indeed.

CHAIRPERSON:: And then did you put water else there to increase the flow of the current? Was the other water used? Did you wet the body, make him put his feet in water or something like that?

MR RAMALIGELA:: We normally used to have a bucket full of water.

MS MTANGA:: Can you tell this committee how many people did it require to carry out this electrical shock on a person, on one person, how many people did you require to assist you?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Even one person was enough because no it wasn't difficult to attach that and just to do the actual application of that.

MS MTANGA:: Mr Ramaligela I am putting it you that the victims, on all the victims went through this electrical shock on all, on their bodies and including their private parts and it is their evidence that once the shocks were applied on their bodies they would, the bodies would jerk so strongly that one person could never be able to hold them and even three people, so you had to have had a team of people around you and indeed, there were more than six people present in the torturing of these gentlemen and their names you have not given to this committee. Do you refute this?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, with the regard to the names I can't remember so vividly as to who else was in except the late Sifuwa, who perhaps could have been the fifth person, I can't remember the other person.

CHAIRPERSON:: You have said it was yourself and then Managa and Nesamari and maybe the deceased Sifuwa. So that is one, two, three and yourself is four. Now you are talking about five people. Do you know who the fifth one would have been.

MR RAMALIGELA:: I can't remember as to who the person was.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: May I interpose. You seem to have been the chief investigator, so to speak, with regard to the investigation relating to the bombing of the Sibasa police station.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, I was the second in charge. The person who was officiated was Captain Sifuwa who was later, later General Ramushwana took over.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: But you seem to have been the one who conducted the investigations quite extensively and did extensive interrogations in relation to this incident. That's the Sibasa bombing incident. Is that correct?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Now you, and only you would be in a better position than General Ramushwana to place us in a better picture as to who was involved or who constituted the investigating team, who was doing the interrogations. Is it not so?

MR RAMALIGELA:: It is true.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Who did you work with in relation to the Sibasa bombing was interrogating the suspects that you have mentioned in paragraph 15.

MR RAMALIGELA:: I had Mr Managa, Mr Nesamari and we were three.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Mr Managa and Mr Nesamari. That's all? Now it has been put to you that it would be impossible to administer this electric shock method unless there were more than six persons. Is that true?

MR RAMALIGELA:: With regard to electricity, I am saying one could implement this as an individual because you know, it is just a matter of standing on the other side and wind.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: So you don't agree. Do you dispute what is being put to you? Are you saying you could conduct that electric shock method with only two people assisting you?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, I just want to put it clearly to the Chairperson that even one person will administer that, however we were three.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Yes, I just want you to respond to what has been put to you because you haven't responded.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well it is true I can't remember exactly who the other people were, the ones that were co-operating with me because we are told that it is something that could be done by at least six people. Well, then I can't remember who the other people were.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: But if you can't remember who would, you would know whether it would require six persons or not. Are you saying it is possible that there were more than three people who had been involved when the electric shock method was applied on the victims.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, there could have been other people but I can't remember. I can't remember exactly who the people were because normally we will do these things while being only three, Managa, Nesamari and myself.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Was there any occasion when you were joined by other policemen during such interrogations?

MR RAMALIGELA:: No. In the particular office we were only three except that the late Mr Sifuwa who will come just to make sure that the report is handed to Thohoyandou office. And if Mr Ramushwana was able to hear what was happening he'll come around as well.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA:: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Ramaligela, Mr Chikororo and Mr Mahumela will give evidence that you are the person in charge of their interrogation and you are the person who tortured them the most. Do you deny this?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, I can't deny that I tortured them so much or extensively, however what I can not agree on what they are saying is that personally I didn't really touch them personally on my own. I can't remember touching them. Well yes, they were tortured, because they were arrested and I was also part of the people who ...(indistinct) them. We did deprive them of their rights. We detained them and some of them were not really properly functioning at our works, and some of their businesses were not operating as normal as it would appear. (The mike is not on)

MS MTANGA:: If you say you did not torture Mr Chikororo and Mr Mahumela, who are the persons who tortured them?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Hasn't he said he can't deny?

MS MTANGA:: He said he didn't touch them, he can't deny but...

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Well it is a little confusing because on the one hand he can't deny but also from his previous evidence he hasn't touched them.

CHAIRPERSON:: Do you know who tortured Chikororo and Mahumela? Those two victims.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, I am quite sure that he, as far as the people who are going to speak they will be able to explain who tortured Mr Chikororo.

CHAIRPERSON:: No, I am asking you. Do you who tortured Mr Chikororo and the other gentleman, Mr Mahumela? If you can't remember, say so. If you can remember who did it, please tell us. It is a simple question.

MR RAMALIGELA:: But I can remember with regard to Mr Chikororo, he was tortured by Mr Nesamari.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: The question that has been put to you by Ms Mtanga is that Mr Chikororo will come here and give evidence that you personally tortured him.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, I can't deny that as well, that I did torture them, that is why I am trying to explain that I can't remember vividly. The fact that he was one of the arrested or detained, yes I do remember that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: In your evidence in chief you were explicit on this issue. You said you didn't touch Mr Chikororo and Mr Mahumela. How can you now say during cross-examination that you can't deny that you tortured Mr Chikororo and Mr Mahumela, when you were initially were very very explicit, you were firm. You knew you had never touched them.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes it is true. I am trying to explain that these people were tortured. I was part of the people who were torturing the two, the detainees. However personally I don't remember touching Mr Chikororo and Mr Mahumela.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: What Miss Mtanga is saying is that Mr Chikororo will come and say you, and only you, tortured him and Mr Mahumela will also come and say the same thing, that you and not anyone else, that you personally tortured him. You would dispute that, is it not so?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, I can't remember vividly touching them on my own or personally. However, if they are saying...

CHAIRPERSON:: Can you remember vaguely whether you ...

MR RAMALIGELA:: No, not the least.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: That is not the impression that I personally heard during your evidence in chief. You were crystal clear on this issue that you never touched them. I just want to remind you of your evidence in chief.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:: Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA:: The victims will be giving evidence on the extent of their injuries, especially the visible ones. Are you able to tell this committee how seriously wounded were these people that you were torturing, at the end of your torturing session? How seriously wounded were they?

MR RAMALIGELA:: With regard to this case I think I did explain to the committee that it is true that I tortured people, I assaulted them, I kicked them. I did everything that I mentioned on these people. That I am also able to realise I was really torturing people, so much that I am not saying that any person who may come and say contrary to I am saying, however what I have explained is that the people that I work with directly were...

(break in recording)

MR RAMALIGELA:: That's true.

MS MTANGA:: Mr Ramaligela it is the victims view that the way you present your evidence regarding the extent of the tortures on them, you are under playing the seriousness of the wounds they incurred as a result of your torturing. What do you say to this?

MR RAMALIGELA:: With regard to the seriousness of the wounds, I can't tell exactly how big they were, because on our own, they couldn't tell us exactly how badly injured they were because I couldn't see any evidence, or anything coming from the hospital and I am not saying I am disputing that this people had, I couldn't see anything visible or written by the doctor that this is how they were injured.

MS MTANGA:: Mr Ramaligela, Dr Farisani whom you have testified that you seriously beat him more than all the victims that you are applying for, he had blood coming out of his ears. Do you dispute this?

MR RAMALIGELA:: No I don't dispute it.

MS MTANGA:: Can I be given a second, Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON:: Yes, certainly.

MS MTANGA:: Dr Farisani will also testify to the effect that his torture went on for two days and it was two full days. The fourth and the fifth of January 1982. Do you dispute this?

MR RAMALIGELA:: No I don't dispute that. I did say that in my evidence initially.

MS MTANGA:: I have also been asked by Dr Farisani to ask you what was the basis of his arrest? What was the grounds for arresting him?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Dr Farisani was arrested because we received information that during the time of the plan of the police station bombing, he was told about it and he was quite aware and that there were some two people who were looking for him whom we thought they were the same people who bombed the police station. That is why he was arrested.

MS MTANGA:: Thank you Mr Chairperson. No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON:: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Mr Meyer, do you have any re-examination?

MR MEYER:: Nothing, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON:: Judge Khampepe, do you have any questions.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Sir, you've just, Mr Ramaligela, just stated now that the reason why Mr Farisani was arrested was because you received information that connected him to the planning of the attack at Sibasa police station. When did you receive information that connected him to the attack?

MR RAMALIGELA:: It was after we had arrested these other people who had link with the Dean.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Yes, you arrested him on the basis of the information that was obtained by you when you were interrogating these suspects, some of the suspects that you have alluded to under paragraph 15. Is it not so?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Which information was obviously obtained when you had administered the various methods, unconventional methods of torture as you have testified to before us.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well I, could you just repeat the question please?

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: You received information that connected Mr Farisani to the planning on the Sibasa police station attack and that information was obtained from the suspects that you had interrogated and subjected them to torture.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Did you rely on the information that was obtained, or extracted under torture and use that as the only basis for arresting Farisani?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well there was nothing else that we could see or do other finding out from himself after hearing from these other people who were detained, other than taking Dr Farisani and hear from him.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Have you had cause to go through with you legal representative on the evidence that was tendered by Mr Farisani amongst, others before the Human Rights Violations Committee, which is an annexure before the bundle that your legal representative must have. Did he go through the evidence that was tendered by some of the suspects that you tortured when they gave evidence before the Human Rights Violations Committee?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well I am quite sure they read all these things.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Did they go through that evidence with you?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Were you for instance told Mr Farisani says amongst others, that you made him to do press-ups? Were you told of that?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes, I was told. I did forget to mention that in my evidence, in my initial evidence, while I was quite aware that it use to take place in our offices.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: You forgot to mention that in your evidence.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes. This is something that happened a long time ago. After so many years it is easy for these things to be forgotten. Well, it is just an omission, it does happen.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: You see you are being legally represented and they have explained to you an important requirement for amnesty, that you have to satisfy full disclosure. I am quite aware that these things happened 18 years ago and it is for that reason that I wanted to find out if you were told of what the victims had said before another standing committee of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Because what this process is about is to try and have a full picture of what happened. In your case you've got to disclose precisely what you did and why you did it in order to qualify for amnesty. Were you also told that Mr Farisani had said that you threw him up and made him to fall down onto the concrete cement?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well I can't dispute that. Yes, we tortured him extremely. One will remember all these other things. We did torture him extremely.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Yes, that the other means of torture that you applied was to dance up and down on his body while boxing him also in karate and, with karate or judo or....

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: You were made aware of all these things.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes. Well I was quite aware, again it was another serious omission and as I was explaining how I tortured him.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: And that at one stage you clapped him until his eyes was visibly swollen?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well yes I did that, but anyway, I can't remember, I only realised on the following day - that he was swollen on the following day and I recall that it was myself who did it.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Was there a time when you took him to Park station and there administered the wet bag method of torture and then applied electric shocks on his body?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes I did explain, even in my initial evidence that I did shock him electronically.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Yes, I am talking about the electric shock that was administered in Park Station. Do you know of that incident?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, I am quite sure that when he personally Mr Dean talked about Park Station I think he is referring to the office in which we used to administer, because we didn't have a jurisdiction to go to Johannesburg.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: You never took him to Johannesburg?

MR RAMALIGELA:: No.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: There was also one thing which I wanted to have clarified.

You have made reference to a certain date, the 10th of November 1981 and you say that, that was when Mr Ramushwana assumed office as a Commander of the investigating team. Are you sure of that date?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes. I can remember the date very well because I, you know it was just between two days, only two between then Mr Ramushwana came in.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Yes, and by that time Mr Farisani had already been arrested, when Mr Ramushwana took over the command of the investigating team.

MR RAMALIGELA:: By then he wasn't arrested yet. He was only arrested thereafter.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: I think it will assist us because Mr Ramushwana didn't know exactly when he assumed command. You have also testified that you used these various methods, and that Mr Ramushwana never came personally to be aware of them when you would hear him approaching you would then immediately stop whatever torture you were in the process of doing. You remember?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes I remember.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Now why did you stop, why wouldn't you want him to see how you were being effective in trying to extract information?

MR RAMALIGELA:: What I didn't explain in this commission about you know our etiquette does not really allow one person to assault the other person before one's senior. Mr Ramushwana was my senior and it was not personally allowed, I mean officially allowed.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: So you were aware when you were administering all these methods of torture that they were being done without Mr Ramushwana's approval?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes, we were not even supposed to tell him exactly - tell him how it was, but we could use our own discretion in using any object for anything.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Who told you that you could use a discretion when administering such methods when you knew your senior was not aware and would not approve of you using those methods?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well he personally, he had access to the President and then he will say to us: "Look, the President is really worried". And he is saying "please use some other means". But he couldn't say exactly how we could administer. It was just my own discretion that this was how I could use that.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: But he never gave you any reason to believe that you could use the methods that you used. He never gave you any reason for you to believe that you could use such methods.

MR RAMALIGELA:: No.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON:: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions that you would like to ask the witness?

ADV BOSMAN:: Just one question, thank you Chairperson. I didn't quite follow your reply to the one question. You said "he would say please use some other methods or other means" apropos what did he say that? What elicited that remark from him, when he said "please use some other means"?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well personally, I don't know exactly, because he couldn't say exactly, he just said just use some means to extract information. He didn't say shock people or kick people of just you know, stand on top their bellies or whatever.

ADV BOSMAN:: But what I don't follow is the use of the word "other means". In other words there must have been some means which he was referring to.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well he wasn't clear. He didn't tell us directly as to what to use. Maybe he knew other methods. But I don't remember him saying a particular method or prescribing another method.

CHAIRPERSON:: Did you understand him when he said that -to be giving you the go-ahead to use, which Mr Meyer has referred to before as 'unconventional methods', that he would condone the use of methods that shouldn't be used, such as beating up people with hands and helicopter method, electric shock etc. etc?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Well, I think it is difficult really to be answerable exactly. I don't how, but I didn't him to realise that we were unconventional methods.

JUDGE KHAMPEPE:: You have earlier on indicated quite clearly that the reason why you didn't want him to see you using those methods and that you would stop as soon you heard him approaching was because you knew he wouldn't approve of you using those methods.

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes it is true, I know he wouldn't really approve of what we were doing, because that is why we used stop doing what we were doing, but we work under pressure.

CHAIRPERSON:: Was it in your standing orders or in your code of conduct or in you rules and regulations whatever you want to call them, that the police should not assault persons arrested?

MR RAMALIGELA:: Yes, we did sign all those undertakings that we do not have to beat people.

CHAIRPERSON:: Yes, thank you. Mr Meyer, do you have questions arising from questions that have been put by members of the panel.

MR MEYER:: Nothing thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:: Mr van Rensburg?

MR VAN RENSBURG:: No questions, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:: Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA:: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:: Yes, thank you very much. Thank you Director, that concludes your evidence you may stand now.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON:: I think this is a convenient although a late time to adjourn. Would you be available to start tomorrow at nine o'clock.

MR MEYER:: Anytime Mr Chairman, no problem.

CHAIRPERSON:: You mentioned that you had some sort of problem tomorrow. You were called in at late notice. Have you managed to make any arrangements?

MR VAN RENSBURG:: Yes, thank you Chairman, I did manage to make some arrangements. I will be here at nine o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON:: Thank you. Would that be suitable Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA:: Yes that suits me fine.

CHAIRPERSON:: Thank you very much. I would like to thank the people for working a bit of overtime this evening. We'll now adjourn and resume with this hearing tomorrow morning in the same venue, the 5th of May at 9 o'clock. Thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS