MR MHLABA: Thank you, Chair. May I now call Mandla Wellington Fokazi?
CHAIRPERSON: I'm informed that the Xhosa interpreter is now available and we'll be able to proceed with the evidence of Mr Fokazi.
MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mhlaba?
EXAMINATION BY MR MHLABA: Thank you, Chair.
Mr Fokazi, for record purposes, can you confirm having been born in 1945, the 2nd of November, is that correct?
MR FOKAZI: That is correct.
MR MHLABA: Do you have a family?
MR FOKAZI: Yes, I do have a family, a wife and children.
MR MHLABA: And you are applying for an amnesty in respect of a crime which was committed on the 2nd of April 1992 around Bethlehem, is that correct?
MR FOKAZI: That is correct.
MR MHLABA: And the basis of your application is that you have committed this crime with a political objective, is that correct?
MR FOKAZI: That is correct.
MR MHLABA: Did you during that period belong to a political organisation and if that being the case you are requested to tell us the name of the organisation and when you joined it.
MR FOKAZI: Yes, I was a member of a political organisation, the ANC.
MR MHLABA: At the time of this incident, that is the incident which you are applying amnesty for, were you employed?
MR FOKAZI: No, I was unemployed.
MR MHLABA: Are you able to explain the circumstances why you were not working?
MR FOKAZI: Yes, I can explain this way, in 1990 I was working at Glodan Engineering in Edenvale. We were assembling taps. I was receiving a salary. Then there were riots between Inkatha and the ANC. As I was working, but I couldn't go to work because of a problem with transport and I was also scared that I would be affected because of the violence at the time.
One day I went to the firm and when I arrived there the owner of the firm told me to choose between two things because people around the firm were looking for me, people that I was playing cards with during lunch, so he told me to choose between my job and my life. I then stopped working because of that, I resigned.
Then violence continued in Thokoza. In 1990, before the end of 1990 the ANC took a decision that the community have to protect themselves, it then formed the Self Defence Units. I was then one of the members of the Self Defence Units. I was trained in Polla Park. We were trained by the people who were able to use guns.
The police then came. We thought that they were trying to bring peace. After a while we realised that the police were also involved in this. We reported this to our organisation the ANC, that there are people that are involved in this violence or maybe they are the perpetrators of this violence.
Then the ANC didn't trust that because we were the ones who were telling the ANC. We wanted them to prove this so that when the police came we would then kill them and then show the ANC that here are these people that were involved.
And the Minister of Law and Order at that time said that that was not true because he was also the Minister of the Police. He didn't want to admit that the police were involved but we tried to show them that the police were involved in the violence.
One day when this violence was still continuing the hippos came. We thought that they were there to bring peace but we were doubting the white policemen. And in that hippo with other, the police from elsewhere came to bring about peace in the area. We realised that those police in the hippo, the people who got out of that hippo were Inkatha members and they attacked us. A lot of people were injured in that incident.
Again on one day, to show you that the police were involved, a Blue Ribbon bakery car came and people went there to get bread for their Spaza shops and it happened during that time in that Blue Ribbon car, the Inkatha members were the people who got out of that car. There were also Boers inside. There were white people inside that car. We then saw that this violence is continuing. It was also reported in the televisions and we were then involved in this. That is how I lost my job or I resigned.
MR MHLABA: Tell the Committee, Mr Fokazi, about your involvement in the shooting incident at or near Bethlehem where you were subsequently arrested with Mr Makhura and others and convicted and sent to jail.
MR FOKAZI: On that particular day it was on the 2nd of April in 1992, we were from Polla Park. Our aim from Polla Park - we received a telephone call from Sebenzile, the deceased. The call was from Natal and Sebenzile received this telephone call. They wanted some help. He was our section commander but there was a central commander, Nozulu.
They then told us that we were going to a certain place in Inanda in KwaZulu Natal. We were eight and then we went there but one of us, Johannes Nxala was not a member of the Self Defence Units as we were members of the Self Defence Units.
We went through Bethlehem and he had a problem with Sebenzile, he owed him money of the Golden Product. His brother-in-law promised him money. We then went to Bethlehem to his brother-in-law. Unfortunately we couldn't find him in his house, we found Simon Mofokeng in the house.
He then met with his brother-in-law, Johannes Nxala and he went to the garage. He then got what he wanted from him. After a while we continued with our journey. They had a problem with each other, Sebenzile didn't want to listen to him but as I was close to him I tried to speak to him as he respected me.
If I'm not mistaken from Bethlehem to that particular area. I think it is two or three kilometres away from Bethlehem to this area and then there was a T-junction to the left and there's a tar road in that area. I was at the back, Nxala was in front and the driver. Nxala and the driver were in the front and Sebenzile, the five of us were at the back.
When we saw that there was conflict in the car I told Makhura about this conflict in the front seat, then the driver stopped the car, got out of the car, we accompanied Morena and we were going to go back to the car but because we couldn't walk for a long distance they followed us with the car.
When we were about three or four kilometres we heard a sound at the back, the AK47 sounds. We then realised that something was happening behind us. We then continued, we went forward. I don't know whether you understand me.
MR MHLABA: Can you proceed and explain what happened?
MR FOKAZI: When we were moving forward because we couldn't go back, we did not know what was happening there, we met a white person with his people in a farm. I was behind and I was passing urine and he pointed these people with a gun and he told them to get into a van, a white van. I don't remember whether it was a Mazda or Izuzu.
They then got in the car, Nxala and Stephen Makhura. He also told me to get into the car. He was speaking Sotho and I didn't understand Sotho but it happened that I got in the car because I could see that he was pointing to this car. We didn't know where he was taking us.
He drove in a high speed and we were scared because we didn't know where he was taking us. Makhura said to me, he told me to take out my firearm so that I could scare him. I then did so. To scare him I shot on top, one shot, the first shot. He didn't want to drive forward and there were people in that car. There were also rods there, I didn't know what he was going to do with them.
Those people then grabbed me. They tried to take my firearm. Tony then stood up. They didn't know that Tony, (Stephen) had a firearm. He then pointed them with the firearm and this white man stopped the car, they jumped out of the car and they ran.
This white man continued driving. I then shot for the second time. He then stopped the car. When he stopped the car he got out of the car and when he got out of the car he tried to come to our direction. I thought that he was coming to me. He then - when he stopped the car, Johannes jumped out of the car, he then met Tony and Tony realised that he was coming towards me. I prepared myself for him because I could see that there was a fight. Tony then shot him. I didn't shoot at that time. Tony shot twice. We then ran away to the township. That is all.
MR MHLABA: So you were subsequently arrested by the police at the township, is that correct?
MR FOKAZI: Yes, we were arrested by the police in the township.
MR MHLABA: In your application from, Mr Fokazi, you mentioned under paragraph 9(a) - I'm referring the Committee to page 3 of the paginated document, you have indicated under acts or omission or offences that you are applying for amnesty in respect of an offence of murder, attempted murder, robbery and possession of an illegal firearm and ammunition. Are you able to explain to the Committee why you have applied for all those offences?
MR FOKAZI: Yes. First of all, when we were arrested it was found that I was involved in killing the police, one police and the other one was not dead at the time. I also had an illegal firearm and they say that it was attempted murder, murder and possession of firearm. That is why I've written these down, because I was there.
If I was not there I wouldn't be involved even though I didn't take part in killing but I was there. Because it was said that maybe we have planned this before. So they said it's a common purpose. That is why I made this application concerning these incidents because if I was not there, if I was at home I wouldn't have been arrested for that but because I was there with my co-accused who did this, I then applied and I was sentenced for life and 21 years.
MR MHLABA: So is it your case, Mr Fokazi, that in getting involved with the shooting of this white driver of the bakkie you were furthering the aims of your organisation?
MR FOKAZI: Can you please repeat your question, Sir?
MR MHLABA: Is it your case that in getting involved in this very offence where you, which involves the incident where the driver of a white bakkie was shot, you were furthering the aims of your political organisation? In other words you wanted to ensure that you arrive at your destination and execute the mandate of the organisation?
MR FOKAZI: That is correct.
MR MHLABA: Do you have any other thing to add in support of your application for amnesty, Mr Fokazi?
MR FOKAZI: Yes, there is something that I would like to add concerning asking for forgiveness to the people, to the families of the victims because the victims were still young. The deceased and the one who survived, I would like to apologise to their families because this is painful, nobody would enjoy this. I would like to ask for forgiveness for my involvement in this case and to the people of South Africa at large.
And to my, the family of my co-accused I would like to ask for forgiveness because now in this country there is democracy and I would like to build the nation, to build South Africa in a democratic country. So I would like to ask for forgiveness with my whole heart, thank you.
MR MHLABA: Thank you, Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions to ask the witness?
MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions to ask the witness?
DR TSOTSI: Yes, I have a couple of questions.
What happened with the rest of your group at Bethlehem? You have told us what happened to you, Fokazi and Nxala and somebody else but what about the other persons that were in your group when you set out?
MR FOKAZI: As we were eight when we got to Bethlehem or in which group the people went who took the other line went to Ficksburg, which group are you referring to?
CHAIRPERSON: The whole group. We know that Mr Makhura was arrested with you and we know that Mr Nxala was with you, what happened to Mr Ngala? Then also, what happened to the other people in the other group that you know of?
MR FOKAZI: Some of us when they ran to the other side, to Ficksburg, others were left in the fields. According to the photos we saw in Court they died and their weapons were next to them, according to the photographs we saw in Court. But fortunately to us and unfortunately to others two of them succeeded in running away. They went to our homes to tell our families that some of us were arrested.
Sebenzile Ndabeni was one of the people who were left there and Mac Gregor. The two who ran away was Nozulu and Joe Makubela. Joe is from Mozambique. They told our families that we were arrested. About Nxala, we were arrested with Nxala. Nxala got me in prison, while I was in prison. We were arrested with him. Mac Gregor and Sebenzile died and others ran away but Joe died.
DR TSOTSI: What about Nozulu, what happened to him?
MR FOKAZI: I'm not sure now about Nozulu because of the situations in our areas. As we were arrested in 1992, in 1992 amongst us there were informers and they would tell the police about our operations and some would die in that manner.
So I don't know Nozulu. There are a lot of people who died in that area and there's still conflict even now in that area so I don't want to lie because even Nozulu is not his name, it is his clan name. We didn't know our real names at the time, we knew each other when we were arrested. They used to call me Gadebe, they didn't know my name as Mandla Fokazi, so that is the way it is.
DR TSOTSI: Well where does Nozulu come from, where was his home, do you remember, do you know?
MR FOKAZI: He was from the Transkei as I am also from the Transkei.
DR TSOTSI: What part of the Transkei?
MR FOKAZI: ...(no English translation)
DR TSOTSI: ...(no English translation)
MR FOKAZI: I don't know where in the Transkei. I don't know whether it's in Elliot or in Tsolo. I'm not sure because he used to go in those places but I'm not sure where exactly he was from.
DR TSOTSI: Where was your home in the Transkei?
MR FOKAZI: In Katjane in Transkei.
DR TSOTSI: Were you trained there as a freedom fighter?
MR FOKAZI: Yes, I was trained.
DR TSOTSI: And was Nozulu trained also?
MR FOKAZI: Yes, he was trained, he was more trained than myself. He was trained by the whites in South Africa.
DR TSOTSI: Where was he trained?
MR FOKAZI: I'm not sure whether in the South African Defence Force or in the South African Police, I'm not sure. Nozulu didn't want to work with them. They wanted to train him because they could see that he was intelligent, they wanted to use him. He then realised that they were using him so he didn't want to work or co-operate with them.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions you'd like to ask the witness?
MR SIBANYONI: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson.
You spoke about Tony and you were referring to Mr Makhura, am I correct?
MR FOKAZI: Yes, I was referring to Mr Makhura, Steven.
MR SIBANYONI: And you also spoke about Johannes who jumped off the car, who is Johannes?
MR FOKAZI: It was Nxala, Johannes Nxala, Johannes ...(indistinct) Nxala.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know Tshokolo Joseph Mokoena?
MR FOKAZI: I knew him when we were arrested.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you only meet him after your arrest?
MR FOKAZI: Yes, we met when we were arrested.
CHAIRPERSON: And the fourth applicant, Fusi Simon Mofokeng?
MR FOKAZI: I know him because we went to his place. I saw him there to his home.
CHAIRPERSON: Was that the first time you saw him?
MR FOKAZI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: That was on the same day, the 2nd of April?
MR FOKAZI: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know Thabo Motaung?
MR FOKAZI: I don't know Thabo, I saw him in the identification parade in Kroonstad. That was the first time I saw him. I then saw him again in Court.
CHAIRPERSON: He in the Court's case, what I can gather from having read some of the record and the Judgment in particular, I mean from reading the Judgment, is that he testified in the trial that you and the other people that you were with had gone specifically to the Bethlehem area to commit a robbery on a farm owned by a person by the name of Osman because it was known by Mokoena that there was cash in a safe on the farm and that the whole thing was a robbing expedition. What do you say to that evidence of Thabo Motaung? ...(end of tape)
MR FOKAZI: ...(inaudible) deny that, Chairperson. I don't know Thabo. The first time I saw him was in the identification parade in Kroonstad and the second time was in Court. He was used. I would like to explain that. I don't know whether I should continue explaining that.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR FOKAZI: Thabo was used. After a while they found that he was used because he did not know what he was saying. All he was saying was a lie. And I was old to go for - I was not there - we were not there to rob, we had weapons so that we can fight. So that is a lie what he said.
He went to Fusi Mofokeng in Kroonstad. We received a letter stating that he visited Fuzi Mofokeng in Kroonstad in jail when we were arrested. If I'm not mistaken I think it was in 1995 or 1996, if I'm not mistaken. When Thabo went to Fuzi he said that he was asking for forgiveness because he was promised something.
He told Fusi that he lied in Court and he was asking for forgiveness and he was going to try to help us to get out of jail and then Fusi asked him how he would do that. He then said he made certain affidavits but I don't know to which office. He went to the Magistrate in Kroonstad. He made a confession statement about our case. The Magistrate said that he should go to the members of the ANC, those that were said to have planned this affidavit. The lawyer of the ANC had to make an affidavit and send that affidavit to him as a Magistrate and the Magistrate would sign and stamp it and send it to the Justice Department.
So Chairperson, what I'm trying to say is that I'm aware of this but it is not true, it is a lie and there is evidence about that. And on the 25th of August George Ndlosi was working for the TRC in Johannesburg. I told him about this. I was together with Clement Ndabeni. We told him about what happened before and we didn't know exactly what was the end of this. George Ndlosi said they would follow this case because I said to my co-accused it is better to hide this boy because if the police were aware that he was giving out such an information they would take him out of the way.
Then Fusi Mofokeng told me that he was out of the way. So I didn't know about this robbery. Thabo just told a lie about this but he didn't straight to me. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Now that vehicle in which you and your companions were driving in when it stopped at the place where you later heard the shooting taking place, was the bonnet of that vehicle ever opened in your presence?
MR FOKAZI: Yes, the bonnet of the car would be opened by the owner of the car but it had a problem with the brakes. I could say that the brake fluid had a problem. There was a pipe there that had a problem. I used to use that car. So what I'm trying to say is that I know that the bonnet would be opened.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you see it being opened at the place that you stopped when you and Mr Makhura and Nxala left to walk back to Bethlehem, was it opened there or not, that you saw with your own eyes.
MR FOKAZI: I didn't see it then but I knew that the car had a problem. I didn't notice whether it was opened or not.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mhlaba, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the panel?
MR MHLABA: None, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions arising?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Yes, Mr Chairman, just one.
Mr Fokazi, when you left that motor vehicle, whom in your group did you leave behind?
MR FOKAZI: That motor vehicle, the people who were left there, there were five people, it was Sebenzile, Nozulu was the second one, Mac Gregor the third one, Thozamile Ndabeni, the driver and Joe. It was Joe Nozulu, Sebenzile, Mac Gregor and Thozamile Ndabeni, the driver.
MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Fokazi, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED
