CHAIRPERSON: Today we'll be starting with the hearing of the applications of Messrs Motlokoa, Mosia, Mofokeng, Sera and Mohomane.
Before we start I'd like to just introduce the panel to you. On my right is Doctor Tsotsi, he is an attorney and comes from Port Elizabeth. On my left is Mr Sibanyoni, he is also an attorney and comes from Pretoria. I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge of the High Court from the Eastern Cape, attached to the Transkei Division of the High Court there.
I ask the legal representatives please to just place themselves on record.
MR MHLABA: I am Booker Mhlaba, I'm appearing on behalf of the applicants.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mhlaba.
MR SESELE: I am Lesane Sesele, I'm appearing on behalf of the Mosebi family.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sesele.
CHAIRPERSON EXPLAINS TRANSLATION EQUIPMENT
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba?
MR MHLABA: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Before we proceed with the applications of the applicants scheduled for today, I have Mr Chairman, Mr Mokoena who was a co-applicant in the application which was heard yesterday, and for some reasons he was not brought to the hearings.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's right. Thank you, Mr Mhlaba. What is the position there with that matter?
MR MHLABA: The position with Mr Mokoena, he wants to formally withdraw his application for amnesty. The basis for his withdrawal is that he did not commit the act at all, he denies involvement in the crime.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr Mhlaba. It is noted that Mr Mokoena who was the 5th applicant in yesterday's hearing has formally withdrawn his application, thank you very much.
APPLICATION OF TSHOKOLO JOSEPH MOKOENA - APPLICATION NO. AM 0016/96: FORMALLY WITHDRAWN
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, you're also placing yourself on record as the Evidence Leader?
MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson. For the record, my name is Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mhlaba, with regard to Mr Mokoena, you have had the opportunity to properly consult with him?
MR MHLABA: Certainly, Mr Chairman, Mr Mokoena is sitting beside me and he can confirm what has been said on his behalf.
CHAIRPERSON: Well I accept without hesitation what you've told us, but if he wishes to confirm it he may but it's not really necessary, thank you.
MR MHLABA: May he then be excused?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Thank you, Mr Mokoena.
TSHOKOLO JOSEPH MOKOENA EXCUSED
MR MHLABA: Thank you, Mr Chairman. In this bundle we have two applications ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Two incidents, yes.
MR MHLABA: We have two incidents, and I would want to first deal with the incident involving Molahleki Patrick Motlokoa who is the only applicant in this very incident. May I call him?
CHAIRPERSON: Certainly, Mr Mhlaba.
Are your full names, Molahleki Patrick Motlokoa?
MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR MHLABA: Thank you.
Mr Motlokoa, is it correct that you were born during 1955, the 11th month on the 9th day at Bethlehem?
MR MOTLOKOA: That is correct.
MR MHLABA: You are the applicant in this matter and you are applying for amnesty in respect an offence of murder and robbery.
MR MOTLOKOA: That is correct.
MR MHLABA: And the person who died in this incident is Peacock Tsosane, is that correct?
MR MOTLOKOA: That is correct.
MR MHLABA: And you are serving a prison term in respect of the very offence, is that correct?
MR MOTLOKOA: That is correct.
MR MHLABA: During the period or shortly before you stood trial for this matter you were hospitalised for some sickness, is that correct?
MR MOTLOKOA: That is correct.
MR MHLABA: Can you briefly explain to the Committee what was wrong with you?
MR MOTLOKOA: I was attacked by a minor stroke, then I was taken to the hospital.
INTERPRETER: The speaker is not audible, can the mike be drawn closer to him?
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the interpreter is saying that he can't hear you, could you please speak a little bit louder and closer to the microphone, thank you.
MR MOTLOKOA: I was taken to the hospital in Harrismith. I don't remember the date. I was hospitalised for three days. I am not able to remember well what was the problem with me.
MR MHLABA: You have drawn to my attention that as a result of this condition you have a loss of memory to a certain extent, is that correct?
MR MOTLOKOA: That is correct.
MR MHLABA: You are making an application for amnesty and the reason for you doing so is that the offences which you have committed were committed with a political objective, is that correct?
MR MOTLOKOA: That is correct.
MR MHLABA: Did you on the 19th of May 1993, belong to any political organisation?
MR MOTLOKOA: I was a member of the SDU of the ANC.
MR MHLABA: I want you as far as you can recall, to explain to the Committee when you became a member of the SDUs and how you came to join the SDUs and the ANC.
MR MOTLOKOA: I started being a supporter of the ANC in 1983. I was a card-carrying member of the ANC in 1990, then in 1992 I joined the SDU in Phuthaditjhaba.
MR MHLABA: I want you Mr Motlokoa to take us through the incident which occurred on the 19th of May 1993, in which incident the deceased Peacock Tsosane was killed.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, Mr Mhlaba, I believe the interpreter has got a problem with the sound, if you could just ...(inaudible).
Does that question have to be repeated or was it translated? Did you hear the question, Mr Motlokoa?
MR MOTLOKOA: ...(no English translation)
MR MHLABA: Mr Motlokoa, I invite you to take us through the incident which happened on the 19th of May 1993, in which incident Hadibonoe Peacock Tsosane was killed.
MR MOTLOKOA: ...(no English translation). We were armed with two 9mm. While we were patrolling we met the deceased Tsosane ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Motlokoa, before you proceed, I think we missed a little bit of the translation. Who were you with? It didn't come through.
MR MOTLOKOA: I was with John Kubeka. We went to Phillip Mosia's place together with John Kubeka. When we arrived at his place together with Phillip Mosia, we went out to patrol. It was about a kilometre from Mosia's place. That is when we met the deceased, he had stopped a car there trying to remove some stones on the road.
I approached him with my firearm, I wanted him to give me his weapon because I knew him, that he was a policeman. He refused to give me his weapon. He tried to grab my weapon, so we were fighting over my firearm and then John shot in the air. He was trying to scare him. When John Kubeka realised that he was a policeman he decided to shoot him and then we left.
The deceased was with another woman in the car, and then we locked that woman in the boot of the same car they were driving and then we ran away from there.
MR MHLABA: Mr Motlokoa you've told the Committee that you went out patrolling, can you tell us more about this patrolling, what were you looking for and what were the reasons for the patrol?
MR MOTLOKOA: There was a rally during the day which was hosted by the SRC college of education. During that rally the police arrived and the students were chased away. That night we decided to attack the police so that we could disarm them.
MR MHLABA: You have told the Committee of you intending to disarm the police officer and to take his firearm, what was the reason for this mission?
MR MOTLOKOA: The reason for disarming them, I was going to take these weapons to give them to the SDU.
MR MHLABA: You also mentioned that your companion shot once to scare the deceased off, are you telling the Committee that your main aim was to get hold of the weapon which the deceased was in possession of as opposed to killing him?
MR MOTLOKOA: We were intending to kill him because he was our enemy.
MR MHLABA: Why do you say he was your enemy, can you explain more?
MR MOTLOKOA: My uncle's child here in Welkom was taken by the police and he was beaten and as a result he was taken to the hospital. We tried to report that case but we don't know what happened about that case. That is when we realised that the policemen were also our enemies because my uncle's son was also a comrade and in many instances the police were always in the company of the IFP people, killing people. That is when we realised that they are also our enemies.
MR MHLABA: While a member of the SDUs, was it at any stage mentioned that the police are legitimate targets of the SDUs and your political organisation?
MR MOTLOKOA: Our commander of the SDU told us that the police and the soldiers were legitimate targets.
MR MHLABA: And was it ever mentioned or resolved in any of your meetings that the police and the soldiers being legitimate targets should be disarmed so that the arms can be used to protect the people by the SDUs?
MR MOTLOKOA: That is correct.
MR MHLABA: So is it your case, Mr Motlokoa, that in killing the deceased, Peacock Tsosane, you were furthering the interests of your political organisation and ensuring the smooth operation of the Self Defence Units?
MR MOTLOKOA: That is correct.
MR MHLABA: Do you have anything to add in support of your application for amnesty?
MR MOTLOKOA: I don't understand your question.
MR MHLABA: Other than what you have already told the Committee, do you have any other thing to add in support of your application?
MR MOTLOKOA: I just want to ask for forgiveness from the families of the deceased because what I did happened during that time when we were fighting, it was war.
MR MHLABA: Mr Motlokoa, I want to take you through your application - and I refer the Committee to page 5 of the paginated bundle, in paragraph 11(b) of your application you are requested to answer, it says
"If so, state the particulars of such orders and approval and the date thereof and if known, the name and address of persons who gave such order or approval."
And you indicated in your form that a programme of action and again:
"Peter Mokaba, ANC Youth League leader."
Can you explain to the Committee what you meant by this?
MR MOTLOKOA: What I'm saying here is that the person who was training us told us that what we are doing was known to Peter Mokaba and also Chris Hani knew about our operations, that we have to attack the police and the soldiers.
MR MHLABA: So by this you were not implying that you got direct orders from Peter Mokaba to engage in this very transaction?
MR MOTLOKOA: That is not so.
MR MHLABA: Thank you, Mr Chair, that concludes the evidence-in-chief.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mhlaba. Mr Sesele, do you have any questions to ask this witness?
MR SESELE: No questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR SESELE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Motlokoa, after you shot dead the policeman, what became of the car which the policeman was driving?
MR MOTLOKOA: We left the car at that spot.
MR MAPOMA: With the woman companion locked in the boot of that car?
MR MOTLOKOA: That is correct.
MR MAPOMA: Did you not attack the woman?
MR MOTLOKOA: No, we did not.
MR MAPOMA: Is it your evidence that the woman was never injured as a result of your action?
MR MOTLOKOA: She was never injured.
MR MAPOMA: Then as you intended to take the firearm, did you in fact take the firearm from the police after you shot him dead?
MR MOTLOKOA: Yes, that's correct, we took the firearm after shooting him.
MR MAPOMA: Why actually did you kill this policeman when you had already received the firearm?
MR MOTLOKOA: We killed him first and then took his firearm.
MR MAPOMA: Why did you kill him?
MR MOTLOKOA: It was our instruction to kill and to disarm the police.
MR MAPOMA: And you say by killing that policeman you were furthering the aims and objections of the African National Congress? Is it your evidence that the ANC had a policy in 1993 to kill the policemen?
MR MOTLOKOA: I don't understand your question.
MR MAPOMA: You are saying, Mr Motlokoa, that by killing that policeman you were furthering the aims and objectives of the African National Congress, hence you say your action was politically motivated. Now my question is, did the ANC in 1993 have a policy to kill the policemen?
MR MOTLOKOA: It was not the police of the ANC but there were other operation which we had to carry out, which included killing the police.
CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by that, Motlokoa?
MR MOTLOKOA: What I mean is that is was not the policy to kill, it was just to cut the strength of apartheid.
MR MAPOMA: Let me put this question the other way around. Was the action of killing those policemen in line with the policy of the ANC, of killing that policeman?
MR MOTLOKOA: That is correct, it was in line with the policy of the ANC.
MR MAPOMA: Why do you say so?
MR MOTLOKOA: Even before while we were trained by Justice he told us it was the only way to show the previous government that it was not prepared for the changes.
MR MAPOMA: Now, was that message going to be delivered by killing the police?
MR MOTLOKOA: That's correct, the apartheid government would realise that we are still fighting.
MR MAPOMA: As I understand it the ANC suspended the armed struggle in 1990 if I'm not mistaken, I'm subject to correction. Now this action of your was an armed action perpetrated by yourselves and the ANC at that time had already suspended the armed struggle, how do you explain your action in the circumstances?
MR MOTLOKOA: I don't understand your question well.
CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Mapoma is putting to you is that by the 19th of May 1993, the ANC had suspended the armed struggle and now he's asking, taking that into account how do you explain your actions on that day, killing the policeman, taking into account the fact that the ANC had in fact suspended its armed struggle by that stage?
MR MOTLOKOA: Yes, that's correct, it had suspended the armed struggle but we as the members of the SDU, we have our own operations that we were still carrying out.
CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying that your SDU carried out its own operations in conflict with ANC policy, contrary to the ANC policy, despite the fact that you were an ANC Self Defence Unit?
MR MOTLOKOA: No, that is not so. We got our instructions from our commander.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, who was your commander?
MR MOTLOKOA: We only knew him by the name of Justice.
MR MAPOMA: Where was Justice, I mean Commander Justice from?
MR MOTLOKOA: He was from the place known as Tabakuseo.
MR MAPOMA: How far is that place from your place?
MR MOTLOKOA: It can be about six kilometres from the place where I stayed.
MR MAPOMA: And who was your local commander of the SDU?
MR MOTLOKOA: He was the only commander in our place. We only had one commander and that was him.
MR MAPOMA: And he did not specifically instruct you to go and conduct that operation, is it not so?
MR MOTLOKOA: He gave us that instruction.
MR MAPOMA: No, no, no, let me get you correctly. Are you saying Justice instructed you that on that day you must go and look for a policeman and kill him and disarm him?
MR MOTLOKOA: He didn't say specifically in that day.
MR MAPOMA: What actually did he say, what actually did he order you to do?
MR MOTLOKOA: His instruction was that we should go out and kill the policemen and take their weapons.
MR MAPOMA: So do I understand you to mean that even if you managed to get that weapon from this policeman you would kill him anyway?
MR MOTLOKOA: That is correct, we would kill him.
MR MAPOMA: Why do you say Peter Mokaba and Chris Hani knew about your operations?
MR MOTLOKOA: Justice told us during our training that Peter Mokaba and Chris Hani knew about these operations, they were well aware of our operations.
MR MAPOMA: Why did you not mention this Justice in your application?
MR MOTLOKOA: I completed this form with my co-prisoner in jail.
CHAIRPERSON: But that doesn't answer the question. If you
take a look at paragraph 11(b), which you've already been
referred to, there's a specific question which says:
"If so, state particulars of such order or approval and
the date thereof and it known, the name and address
of the person who gave such order or approval."
Now you've quite clearly said to us that you got the approval for this killing from Justice, your commander. Now the question asked by Mr Mapoma is, why didn't you mention Justice's name in response to that question? It doesn't matter whether you were filling in the question together with co-prisoners or with whoever it was, you knew what happened, why didn't you mention Justice in response to that question?
MR MOTLOKOA: Like I've already said that I was filling this form with my co-prisoner. I was explaining to him what was happening during our training, how Justice used to explain instructions to us. I was never given instructions by Peter Mokaba.
CHAIRPERSON: But that's the question, that's exactly why Mr Mapoma asked you the question. If you were never given instructions by Peter Mokaba, why do you put his name there and not Justice who you say gave you the instructions?
MR MOTLOKOA: I was explaining to him, I was talking about Justice, that is the person who was helping me to fill in these forms. I told him about the training that we got from Justice. He used to talk about Peter Mokaba and Chris Hani who were well aware of such instructions and operations.
MR MAPOMA: Mr Motlokoa, who wrote down the answers?
MR MOTLOKOA: His name is Lengwabala.
MR MAPOMA: Mr Motlokoa, I put it to you that the action of killing the deceased person, the policeman in May 1993, was not in line with the ANC policy. What do you say to that?
MR MOTLOKOA: What I'm saying is that it was in line with the policy of the ANC. We were told so by Justice. He used to teach us about that, that the policeman is your enemy, you don't have to trust him.
MR MAPOMA: Yes, the point is, even F W de Klerk, the State President of the then government was not trusted by the ANC because the apartheid government was the enemy of the people but the ANC did not have a policy to kill the leaders of that government, do you understand that? That the police were the enemy of the people does not necessarily mean that the ANC had a policy that those people must be killed. That's what I'm putting across to you, what do you say to that?
MR MOTLOKOA: I do not disagree with you, not all the policeman were killing people, but how would you know that this one supports apartheid or he does not?
MR MAPOMA: No further questions, thank Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions to ask the witness? Sorry, before I hand it over to you, do you have any re-examination, Mr Mhlaba, arising out of questions that have been put?
MR MHLABA: No, no re-examination, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MHLABA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, Doctor Tsotsi?
DR TSOTSI: Do I understand you correctly to say that while you were struggling with the deceased for the possession of your gun, John Kubeka shot the deceased?
MR MOTLOKOA: Yes.
DR TSOTSI: So you yourself did not shoot the deceased at all?
MR MOTLOKOA: I wanted to shoot the deceased ...(intervention)
DR TSOTSI: ...(indistinct) whether you actually shot him.
MR MOTLOKOA: No, Sir.
DR TSOTSI: Now you say that John Kubeka shot him when he discovered that the deceased was a policeman, is that right?
MR MOTLOKOA: I don't understand the question correctly, Sir.
DR TSOTSI: You say that John Kubeka shot the deceased.
MR MOTLOKOA: Yes.
DR TSOTSI: When he discovered that the deceased was a policeman, is that correct?
MR MOTLOKOA: No, not when he discovered that he was a policeman.
DR TSOTSI: Okay, why did he shoot the deceased?
MR MOTLOKOA: He shot him because he was a police officer and that we wanted to disarm him.
DR TSOTSI: But how did you know that?
MR MOTLOKOA: We knew him because we were with him in the same area.
DR TSOTSI: And where is he now, John Kubeka?
MR MOTLOKOA: He's there.
DR TSOTSI: And the lady who was with the deceased ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: When you say: "He is there", where? Just for record purposes.
MR MOTLOKOA: He is inside this hall.
MR SIBANYONI: What is his other name?
MR MOTLOKOA: That is John.
MR SIBANYONI: Is he one of the applicants?
MR MOTLOKOA: I don't know but I know that he was notified to be present.
DR TSOTSI: Was he charged for shooting the deceased?
MR MOTLOKOA: Yes, he was charged.
DR TSOTSI: And what was the outcome of the case?
MR MOTLOKOA: He was sentenced for death and seven years in prison.
DR TSOTSI: Was he charged together with you?
MR MOTLOKOA: Yes, he was my co-accused.
DR TSOTSI: Was there anybody else who was your co-accused apart from him?
MR MOTLOKOA: Phillip Mosela was not found guilty.
DR TSOTSI: Now you've also told us that the police, you didn't like the police because they had dispersed a meeting of the students and that on the day that they did so you made a decision, you decided that you were going to go for the police.
MR MOTLOKOA: Yes, that is correct.
DR TSOTSI: So you were actually motivated by personal hatred or spite against the police?
MR MOTLOKOA: The way they were harassing the people and torturing the people, those who were fighting for their human rights.
DR TSOTSI: You also told us that they beat up your uncle's son. They took your uncle's child to Welkom here and beat ...(indistinct)
MR MOTLOKOA: Yes, that happened in the previous years before this incident.
DR TSOTSI: It was one of the reasons why you didn't like the police?
MR MOTLOKOA: One of the reasons was that they were torturing the people who were fighting for human rights and for freedom.
DR TSOTSI: I'm talking now about your uncle's son. You decided that because the police had mistreated your uncle's son you were going to go for them?
MR MOTLOKOA: No, Sir. When we reported this case, when we started to report this case, ...(end of tape)
DR TSOTSI: You say they didn't pay attention to the case, and then what did you decide about it? What did you decide to do as a result of the failure of the police to take up the case?
MR MOTLOKOA: We went to the lawyer to complain and because of lack of funds we did not continue.
DR TSOTSI: Now you say on the night after the police had dispersed a meeting of the SRC, a meeting convened by the students SRC, you say that
"That night we decided to attack the police."
Is that correct?
MR MOTLOKOA: Because they harassed the SRC during the day.
DR TSOTSI: And that is - was that before or after the shooting of the deceased?
MR MOTLOKOA: It is after they've harassed the SRC that we made a decision to attack the police.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to put to the witness?
MR SIBANYONI: Yes, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Motlokoa, who put up the stones, the sort of roadblock?
MR MOTLOKOA: They were put there by the members of the SRC. They put them there during the day and some other items.
MR SIBANYONI: As you were patrolling the area, what was the purpose, what were you looking for?
MR MOTLOKOA: We were actually looking for the police because we knew that they will also patrol that area.
MR SIBANYONI: And if you would find the police, what would you do with them?
MR MOTLOKOA: We will shoot him and disarm him.
MR SIBANYONI: Where is Justice today?
MR MOTLOKOA: I've never seen him since I was arrested.
MR SIBANYONI: No further questions, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Was the deceased dressed in uniform at the time of the killing?
MR MOTLOKOA: No, he was not dressed in uniform.
CHAIRPERSON: Was he driving a marked police vehicle?
MR MOTLOKOA: He was driving a police car with numberplates indicating that it was a police van.
CHAIRPERSON: Now you said that Mr John Kubeka was here, whereabout is he sitting?
MR MOTLOKOA: He is sitting there.
CHAIRPERSON: On the stage?
MR MOTLOKOA: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Who is the person otherwise known as "Shooter"?
MR MOTLOKOA: That is John.
CHAIRPERSON: Had you been drinking liquor that day or evening prior to the shooting?
MR MOTLOKOA: No, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that when you came across this vehicle with the deceased removing the stones from the road, it was just by chance that when you happened to get there the deceased was out of the vehicle removing stones that were blocking his path of travel on the road?
MR MOTLOKOA: Yes, that's correct, we saw that as an opportunity because he was already out of his van.
CHAIRPERSON: Because you see I'm looking at the bundle of papers that are before us and at page 87 thereof there is a statement, I think it's made by yourself, which was used in the trial. Now reading at the bottom of this page you say
"I left with them. We were now a distance from Mabote's place when we saw stones in the road. When we got to the stones Shooter said we should then get other stones and put them in the road to block the road."
Did that happen at all?
MR MOTLOKOA: We never removed the stones in the road.
CHAIRPERSON: What I'm saying is, in this statement it is said that you got other stones to put on the road.
MR MOTLOKOA: Stones were already in the road. There were about two stones which were already removed and then we put other stones because we were trying to block the road.
CHAIRPERSON: You didn't then just by coincidence come across the deceased when he was removing stones from the road, because now you say that you put stones in the road. You must have put stones in the road and then waited for some vehicle to come, not so?
MR MOTLOKOA: When we arrived the stones were already there and the deceased's car was already there.
CHAIRPERSON: But didn't you just tell me now that you put two stones in the road? You said there were two stones there and you put stones in the road? Didn't you just say that a moment ago?
MR MOTLOKOA: Yes, we put two stones in the road and then we moved on.
CHAIRPERSON: Now did you put those two stones in the road before you killed the deceased or you and your companions killed the deceased or after you killed him?
MR MOTLOKOA: We put the stones there before we killed the deceased.
CHAIRPERSON: And then you say you moved on, where did you move onto?
MR MOTLOKOA: We didn't move on for a long distance from the place where we put the stones, we were still near that place where we put the stones.
MR SIBANYONI: Did the deceased stop at the place where you put the stones?
MR MOTLOKOA: Yes, that's correct, he stopped there but by that time we were already away from that place and then we turned back and that is when we attacked him.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why your co-perpetrators, John Kubeka and Phillip Mosia haven't applied for amnesty in respect of this incident or don't you know?
MR MOTLOKOA: What I know is that Mosia has not applied for amnesty because he was acquitted. Kubeka has applied for amnesty but we are in different prisons.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just once again to refer to this statement that I've referred to earlier on, page 87. You said that
"On the day in question I was at home with my friend, Phillip Mabote at Beirut. We were sitting there busy drinking the liquor."
Did that happen?
MR MOTLOKOA: That is not correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you at your trial raise the question of you doing this, performing these acts, this action as a member of the SDUs?
MR MOTLOKOA: No, I did not.
CHAIRPERSON: Why not?
MR MOTLOKOA: Because I wanted to be acquitted so that I can continue with such operations.
CHAIRPERSON: Why did you put the woman in the boot of the vehicle?
MR MOTLOKOA: We put her there so that if she was also a police, she should also die.
CHAIRPERSON: So you put her in the vehicle with the intention of her ultimately dying, is that what you're saying?
MR MOTLOKOA: That's correct. We thought that she was also a policeman, policewoman.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever think of any of you, or decide to try to take the motor vehicle?
MR MOTLOKOA: No, Chairperson. Once again I just read from the statement just for your comment, page 88
"I closed the boot ..."
That's after putting the woman in it.
"Shooter took the key. He wanted to start the motor vehicle. Maboti said we should run away as there was another car coming from behind."
What do you say to that?
MR MOTLOKOA: I closed the boot of the car, that is true and then we left, we ran away.
CHAIRPERSON: When were you arrested in relation to the commission of the offence?
MR MOTLOKOA: I was arrested after two weeks because then I had already been arrested for another case related to gold.
CHAIRPERSON: Where was the deceased's firearm at the time of your arrest?
MR MOTLOKOA: I hid the weapon at my place.
CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you hand it over to your commander?
MR MOTLOKOA: I went at our meeting place the following day but he did not arrive until I came back to Welkom, because I was supposed to come and contact my lawyers in connection with the other case related to gold.
CHAIRPERSON: And when you went out that evening, were you armed, the evening that the deceased was killed?
MR MOTLOKOA: That's correct, I was armed.
CHAIRPERSON: What were you armed with?
MR MOTLOKOA: I was armed with a 9mm.
CHAIRPERSON: And Kubeka?
MR MOTLOKOA: He was armed with a 765.
CHAIRPERSON: And Mosia?
MR MOTLOKOA: He was not armed.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the panel?
MR MHLABA: I've got no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sesele?
MR SESELE: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR SESELE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?
ADV MAPOMA: No questions Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Motlokoa, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba, how do you want to do this, are you going to call other applicants now or do you want to deal with this matter as a separate issue and conclude it?
MR MHLABA: Please, Mr Chairman, I would prefer to deal with this matter as a separate issue, then I will start with the other incident of June. Kubeka is in the hall here and my instructions are that Kubeka has applied for amnesty but we tried to get through with the relevant people in Cape Town and they say they cannot find his form, they've got no records that he has applied.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
MR MHLABA: And that will conclude the evidence of the applicant in this matter.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sesele, I take it you're not involved in this particular incident at all. Mr Mapoma, any further evidence?
ADV MAPOMA: No, Chairperson, there is no further evidence in this particular matter.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to address us now, Mr Mhlaba?
MR MHLABA ADDRESSES COMMITTEE: I can briefly address the Committee. Thank you, Mr Chairman.
The applicant has submitted an application which I submit is in accordance with the enabling legislation. The applicant states that he committed this very offence with a political objective.
There is evidence here which remains undisputed, that he was a member of the SDU which was the formation of the ANC and there is further evidence that he was given instructions, or it was collective resolutions taken in their meetings that police and the members of the South African Defence Force were legitimate targets of the people and their political organisation.
Mr Chairman, it was further stated that it was resolved that in order to protect the people and the community, they needed to find arms. And the place where they could get those arms was to disarm the police and the members of the South African Defence Force.
CHAIRPERSON: And kill them?
MR MHLABA: And kill them.
So it is on those basis, Mr Chairman, that I believe that the applicant here had the motive which is political. It may appear in the eyes of the Committee that in view of the fact that the African National Congress had already suspended its armed struggle, the conduct of the applicant here was not justified but however, Mr Chairman, it is a very well-known fact that people who participated in political activities at various levels, especially in the level in which the applicant was participating, were not upraised of the decision of the National Executive Committee of the ANC. I can further add that depending on the sophistication of the actual perpetrator, people were not even keeping updated about the events which are well publicised in the media. The Committee should, Mr Chairman I submit, view the conduct of the applicant to befit his circumstances, his level of sophistication and the level in which he participated in the formations.
So it is my respectful submission that a political objective can be sometimes unreasonable but it remains such. It is therefore my submission that the applicant has committed this offence with a political objective and consequently entitled to amnesty. Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mhlaba. Mr Mapoma, do you have any submissions to make?
ADV MAPOMA: No, Chairperson, no submissions.
NO SUBMISSIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much, Mr Mhlaba, Mr Mapoma. I see now that it is quarter past eleven. I think this would then be a convenient time for us to take the tea adjournment and after the tea adjournment we will commence with the other applications that are before us. Thank you, we'll take the short tea adjournment.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba, with regard to the previous application, Mr Motlokoa's application, we'll reserve the decision and a written decision will be handed down in the near future.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
