CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. My name is Judge Pillay. I'm going to ask my colleagues and then the different representa-tives to announce themselves for the purposes of the record.
JUDGE POTGIETER: My name is Denzil Potgieter.
ADV SANDI: My name is Ntsiki Sandi.
MR GQAMANE: My name is Nyameko Gqamane.
CHAIRPERSON: You appear for who, Mr Gqamane?
MR GQAMANE: I'm appearing on behalf of the applicant in this matter, Mr Thembile Zikina. On the application it appears Ngxokolo, but when he gave evidence he will explain as to how it happened to be Ngxokolo. But the surname is Zikina.
MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I'm Thabile Thabethe, the Evidence Leader.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, I see some of the members of the public who are attending this hearing are not equipped with headphones. Is it possible to rectify that?
MS THABETHE: I will enquire from the sound technician. It's being arranged, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Gqamane?
MR GQAMANE: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, this is an application on behalf of the applicant for an incident that occurred on the 7th August 1976 here at Centenary Hall.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you intending to call him to give evidence?
MR GQAMANE: Yes Chairperson, I'll call the applicant to testify.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that I should refer to him as Mr Zikina?
MR GQAMANE: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zikina, which language would you prefer to use?
MR GQAMANE: Chairperson, he is going to use Xhosa and then we will be assisted by ...(indistinct). Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: I didn't get that answer. What language would he prefer to use?
MR GQAMANE: Xhosa. He is going to use Xhosa, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gqamane, there are official interpreters here. If he speaks into the microphone when it's lit they will pick it up and translate to us now.
MR GQAMANE: Thank you Chairperson.
THEMBILE NGXOKOLO aka ZIKINA: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR GQAMANE: Thank you Chairperson.
Mr Zikina, do you confirm that you are the applicant in this matter?
MR ZIKINA: That is correct.
MR GQAMANE: Do you also confirm that the incident you are about to testify is an incident that occurred on the 7th August 1976?
MR ZIKINA: Yes that is correct.
MR GQAMANE: Can you tell the Chairperson as well as the Honourable Members of the Committee as to what happened on that day?
MR ZIKINA: On the 7th August 1976 I came here at the Centenary Hall. There was a boxing tournament, there were many people here and there were tickets that were sold and other people had forged the tickets and those people were arrested. There was chaos at the door, everybody wanted to get inside and the Police came. They tried to push the people away and they assaulted the people and administered teargas and the people who were still outside there, we decided to run across the road and then we started pelting the Police with stones. Many people were injured on that particular day. Some people lost their properties.
When we left the Centenary Hall one of the people who were outside there talked to us and told us to go on with the battle with the Police because the situation was even worse and they started ululating freedom songs. Other people there were still scholars but at the same time, at that I was employed and during the discussions it transpired that even the education that the people were getting was not up to the standard. A large group of people united and the discussions went on and there was no turning back.
We went down the road. This was all because of the Police. Our intention was not to destroy the hall or try and cause some confusion.
CHAIRPERSON: Now what caused the chaos, you said because of the chaos you people left the hall and outside you attacked the police vehicles?
MR ZIKINA: It is because we had the money, we wanted to get inside the hall but the Police, instead of arranging for that, they were dismissing us and we decided after realising that we were not going to get our money back, we decided to fight the Police because they were not doing justice.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the reason you fought with the Police, that you weren't going to get your money back?
MR ZIKINA: I was not the person who was in the forefront, there were other people. I also got that message after some time as to what was the cause of this whole chaos. I took action because the other people were already pelting stones and others were singing Black Power songs.
CHAIRPERSON: You were in the hall initially?
MR ZIKINA: I was still outside the hall but with the intention to get inside.
CHAIRPERSON: And then? What happened then? So you didn't pay yet?
MR ZIKINA: We had the tickets, we had already bought the tickets.
CHAIRPERSON: And you weren't being allowed in?
MR ZIKINA: People who had tickets were outside and even the hall inside was full. There was no chance for the people who were having tickets outside to get in.
CHAIRPERSON: And thereafter the Police were attacked?
MR ZIKINA: There were security guards and they didn't know what to do. There were still a few policemen in the vicinity.
CHAIRPERSON: And then they were attacked with stones?
MR ZIKINA: Yes they were pelted with stones.
CHAIRPERSON: Why? Why did you pelt? Well let me ask you this, did you in fact pelt them with stones as well?
MR ZIKINA: I was also among those people. I was still very young at the time. I also had a ticket and I realised I was not going to get my money back. I decided to participate and the other people were singing on the other side, shouting slogans.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you throw stones?
MR ZIKINA: Yes, I cannot deny that.
CHAIRPERSON: Why? Why did you throw stones?
MR ZIKINA: There was confusion, people shouting slogans, everything was happening and we decided to do it.
CHAIRPERSON: Why did you throw stones?
MR ZIKINA: The reason for me to participate is because I realised that I was not going to get my money. As the Police were administering teargas and it became apparent to me that I was not going to get my money.
CHAIRPERSON: So the actual reason you threw stones is because you were not going to get your money back, correct?
MR ZIKINA: I can say so but there were other things also. I realised that there was nothing left and that was the kind of treatment that we were getting and we thought that was going to lead us to our freedom because we were oppressed at the time.
CHAIRPERSON: Was that discussed?
MR ZIKINA: It is like it was discussed informally because we were standing outside.
CHAIRPERSON: How was it discussed outside? In a meeting? By people who were throwing stones or what?
MR ZIKINA: Other Police ran away and then the hit squad came and they came with the teargas.
CHAIRPERSON: I want to ask you something. Am I correct in understanding your evidence that the only reason you threw stones that day at the Police outside this hall was because you felt you were not going to get your money back? Am I correct?
MR ZIKINA: I can say that is one of the reasons.
CHAIRPERSON: This story about getting your freedom was not a consideration on that day? You were angry at not being able to get your money back, is that not so?
MR ZIKINA: I can say that is one of the reasons but at least I could detect from what was being said by the people that there are so many things that were taking place in places like Johannesburg and I would even read newspapers about what was going on.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Gqamane?
MR GQAMANE: Thank you Chairperson.
Mr Zikina, after you left the hall, before you pelted the stones to the Police officers was there any person who gave the instructions that you must pelt the stones to the police officers?
MR ZIKINA: I think there was also an instruction that we should go ahead, shouting the slogans like Black Power and pelting stones.
MR GQAMANE: So if I understand you correctly it was not something that was preplanned but something that happened on the spur of the moment, is that correct?
MR ZIKINA: This incident here at Centenary Hall was never discussed, it was not preplanned.
MR GQAMANE: At that time were you a member of any political organisation or any liberal movement?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gqamane, there's a difference between liberation movement and liberal movement.
MR GQAMANE: I'm sorry, Chairperson, I want to refer to as a liberation movement, thank you.
MR ZIKINA: I was not a member but I was just a follower. Black Consciousness Movement.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zikina, you applied for amnesty on the normal form 1 document, is that correct?
MR ZIKINA: Yes that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you sign that yourself?
MR ZIKINA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And did you complete that form yourself?
MR ZIKINA: We got the forms and we were told to take them to the charge office to be signed.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you complete, did you fill in all the answers yourself?
MR ZIKINA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Have a look at page 2 on that application form. Is that your handwriting?
MR ZIKINA: Yes, that is my handwriting.
CHAIRPERSON: Look at paragraph 7(a). Is that your handwriting, did you complete that question?
MR ZIKINA: This is a policeman's handwriting and I told him that I was never a member of ANC. Those are the things that happened when I was in prison after being sentenced for this incident.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that your handwriting at paragraph 7(a)?
MR ZIKINA: I thought I wrote Black Consciousness but it looks like my handwriting.
CHAIRPERSON: Will you accept that's your handwriting or not?
MR ZIKINA: Somebody - I did fill in the form but I think something happened and then the information was transferred into the other form. There was another form that I filled in before but I think this information was later transferred. This was not the form that I filled in and then that form, the one that I filled in, was taken.
CHAIRPERSON: I want to ask you, I don't know how to make it more simple, you see that handwriting there on paragraph 7(a)? Have a good look at that handwriting. Is that your handwriting?
MR ZIKINA: Yes I can say that this is my handwriting.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now let me read to you what is contained in paragraph 7(a) and 7(b). 7(a) the question is
"If you are or were an officer or office bearer or member or supporter of any political organisation or institution or body or liberation movement, state the name thereof."
You completed that answer in saying:
"African National Congress and the military wing, Umkhonto weSizwe or Spear of the Nation."
The second part of that question is:
"State capacity in which you served in the organisation or institution or body or liberation movement concerned, if applicable, and membership number, if any."
There you filled in:
"I was just an ordinary personnel or personeel."
Do you understand that?
MR ZIKINA: Yes I understand that.
CHAIRPERSON: Now where does it come from that you were in the Black Consciousness Movement? You in fact said earlier now that you told this policeman that you were never a member of the African National Congress? Now how does this appear in your application which you had filled in?
MR ZIKINA: I think I made a mistake later on. I think I made a mistake while I was reading the question.
ADV SANDI: Sorry, can I just ask you to explain that? What do you mean when you say I think I made a mistake whilst I was reading the question? What did you think was the meaning of the question?
MR ZIKINA: I thought that the question was about what was happening during those times in 1976 after I was released from prison.
MR GQAMANE: Can I get a clarity from you, Mr Zikina? When this incident occurred you were a supporter of the Black Consciousness Movement, is that correct?
MR ZIKINA: Yes that is correct.
MR GQAMANE: When you filled in these forms, form 1, were you a member of any political organisation or liberation movement?
MR ZIKINA: When I was in prison I joined the political organisation, I became a member of a political organisation.
MR GQAMANE: Which political organisation is that?
MR ZIKINA: The ANC.
MR GQAMANE: Were you a member of Umkhonto weSizwe at any stage?
MR ZIKINA: No, I was never a member but we used to have the same ideas while I was in Mossel Bay and Cape Town.
MR GQAMANE: If I understand you correctly, when you filled in form 1, more in particular in paragraph 7(a) did you understand what was asked on that question?
MR ZIKINA: I made a mistake in paragraph 7(a).
MR GQAMANE: What mistake is it?
MR ZIKINA: I thought that they were referring to the period when I was released up until in 1996 when I filled in this form.
MR GQAMANE: So if I understand you correctly, when the time you filled in this form you were a member of the African National Congress and you were a supporter of Umkhonto weSizwe, is that correct?
MR ZIKINA: Yes, when I was filling in the form that was the situation.
MR GQAMANE: Let's go ...(intervention)
ADV SANDI: Wasn't Umkhonto weSizwe disbanded before 1996 when you filled in the form?
MR GQAMANE: In 1996 there were other operations that were taking place but I was not involved. I would get that information from other people.
ADV SANDI: As far as I know the MK did not exist as an organisation in 1996, that is the time you said you filled in the form?
MR ZIKINA: I understand that but I read the question at the time and I put the response. I thought that the question was about that concept.
MR GQAMANE: Thank you Mr Chairperson and Members of the Committee.
Mr Zikina, are you still a member of the African National Congress?
MR ZIKINA: Yes.
MR GQAMANE: Let us go back to the incident that occurred in ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Before you carry on there? Which organisation did you belong to in 1976 then, in August?
MR ZIKINA: I was just a follower of the Black Consciousness Movement.
CHAIRPERSON: In broad terms?
MR ZIKINA: I was still learning at the time, learning more about the principles of the Black Consciousness Movement.
CHAIRPERSON: Sir, all I'm asking you, you were not a formal member of any of the Black Consciousness sects?
MR ZIKINA: I was not a formal member at the time, I was just a follower.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Gqamane?
MR GQAMANE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
Mr Zikina, let us come back to the incident that occurred here at the great Centenary Hall that day. After you've already pelted the stones to the Police, what happened from there?
MR ZIKINA: When the Police started administering teargas we dispersed. We walked down the road. The other group went down Mjinga Road. We met next to the New World and we proceeded down Mjinga Road. People who were following us were actually aware of this Black Consciousness Movement, talking about education, the fact that the education that was given in our schools was not up to the standard because even the conditions were not what was supposed to be and the Khama Primary was ...(indistinct), they said we should leave and go to Khama Primary School and I followed and two petrol bombs were administered and the Police were there because they were looking for some culprit. One person was shot at and that particular person was arrested in hospital. I heard the following day, on a Sunday, while I was looking for Steve and I was told that he was in hospital, he was shot and his mother told me while I was in prison that Steve was arrested by the Police. He was arrested after this Centenary incident and he was later acquitted because a lie was told. He was arrested for arson but he was acquitted.
MR GQAMANE: If I understand, Mr Zikina, you were eventually charged and convicted of the incident that occurred here at the Centenary Hall, is that correct?
MR ZIKINA: Yes that is correct.
MR GQAMANE: And among the other people that you were charged with is Mr Matinise?
MR ZIKINA: Yes.
MR GQAMANE: Mr Chete?
MR ZIKINA: Yes.
MR GQAMANE: Mr Veto?
MR ZIKINA: Yes.
MR GQAMANE: Mr Nsiki?
MR ZIKINA: Yes.
MR GQAMANE: Mr Dinge?
MR ZIKINA: Yes.
MR GQAMANE: Mr Ntomgela?
MR ZIKINA: Yes.
MR GQAMANE: And Mr Sqeyia?
MR ZIKINA: Yes that is correct.
MR GQAMANE: And according to your knowledge were all these people present at the great Centenary Hall when this incident occurred?
MR ZIKINA: I cannot say for sure that they were there but I did not see them on that particular day. I only met them while we were arrested. They were not there at the incident.
MR GQAMANE: And when, during your criminal trial, you in fact testified that you don't have knowledge of what occurred at the great Centenary Hall that day, is that correct?
MR ZIKINA: Yes that is correct.
MR GQAMANE: And the outcome of the criminal trial you were sentenced to ten years, is that correct?
MR ZIKINA: That is correct.
MR GQAMANE: Also those members that, your co-accused as they were then, were also sentenced to ten years, thirteen years some of them, is that correct?
MR ZIKINA: Yes that is correct.
MR GQAMANE: And yourself as well as your co-accused spent between eight and ten years imprisonment, is that correct?
MR ZIKINA: That is correct.
MR GQAMANE: And some of your co-accused are present in this hall today, is that correct?
MR ZIKINA: Yes that is correct.
MR GQAMANE: Do you want to say publicly you apologise to them?
MR ZIKINA: The most important thing, when I investigated while I was in prison, I was asking myself if they were there or not and I realised that they were not there and even if I'm at home or reading or doing something, it always comes to my mind that I misled them and I told them a lie and I want to apologise to them so that I can be free in my conscience. And some of the people who were injured there ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gqamane, who is he apologising to?
MR GQAMANE: He is apologising to some of the co-accused, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Why would he want to apologise to them?
MR GQAMANE: Because, Chairperson, according to him that they were not there when that incident and they were convicted of something that they were not involved in.
CHAIRPERSON: Why is he then apologising?
MR GQAMANE: It's because, Chairperson, they were convicted of something that they were not involved and he never disclosed that to the court at that stage, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zikina, who are these friends that you are apologising to?
MR ZIKINA: My co-accused in this incident and some people who were injured during the incident. There are people who always point fingers at me. There's another person who was affected there, Tegus, and he cannot see now and even if I'm socialising with people they think that we are getting some money because of that. Those things are hurting me most and people are always pointing fingers at me.
CHAIRPERSON: What are the names of those co-accused to whom you are apologising?
MR ZIKINA: Vusilema Matinese, Momameli Dinge, Monde Chete, Ngoluleku Sqeyia, Zalisele Ntsiki, Galeleke Leveto and the other people who were assaulted by Police of which I don't even know how were they arrested and they sustained injuries. Many people are even here in Msimo who were assaulted by Police. Others were sick after the incident, attacked by stroke and what happened here in Centenary was something that was supposed to happen, there was supposed to be a beginning. I cannot say it was wrong but it is clear that everybody, people had to unite at the time and take part because the situation was tense. I want to apologise to the people who became victims later because of the then government.
CHAIRPERSON: Well don't you think it's that government that should be apologising and not you? What are you apologising for?
MR ZIKINA: I'm apologising because I lied to the people who were accused with me and even the people who were listening during the trial.
CHAIRPERSON: Now tell me now, with all your being heart sore and apologetic, when you completed this application form, were you making an application for all the crimes that you committed in respect of the incident here at Centenary Hall?
MR ZIKINA: Yes, I was applying. The main thing is even if I'm looking for employment there's a red cross next to my name.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zikina, just listen to me now. Do you see all these people here? They haven't all come to listen to your case. So your kind of answers that you're giving is taking up a lot of time. I'm asking you a simple question. Now listen to me. When you completed this application form, were you making an application for amnesty in respect of the crimes that were committed during the incident just outside this hall on the 2nd August 1976?
MR ZIKINA: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Now look at paragraph 9(a)i. The question there is
"Furnish sufficient particulars of the acts, omissions, offences associated with a political objective in respect of which amnesty is sought including dates, places, nature thereof and the names of other persons involved"
And (i) they say:
"acts, omissions, offences?"
You say:
"We committed sabotage and we were eight. Myself, Sqeyia, Chete, Veto, Nsiki, Dinge and Matinese."
Correct? That's what you filled in, in 1996. If that is not true then why did you fill it in? You're now apologising to all those people for not coming out during the trial and saying they were not there. Why 1996 then do you include their names?
MR ZIKINA: I made a mistake because I mentioned them as my co-accused. I hadn't met with them at that time. I mentioned their names as my co-accused but that doesn't necessarily mean that they were involved.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh well, unless my English is troubled, you say "we" in the plural "committed sabotage and we were eight" and you list these names in respect of an application you make for offences committed during the incident outside this hall on the second of August 1976. Now can you explain that please?
MR ZIKINA: That is one of the mistakes because I wanted to mention their names and they were going to explain for themselves. I couldn't take a decision and say they were not there. So I thought they were going to be given a chance to say whether they were there or not.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the best you can do in explaining your problem?
MR ZIKINA: I can say I made a mistake.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Gqamane?
JUDGE POTGIETER: Just a minute, Mr Zikina? Then just can you clarify on page 3 of the record, paragraph 10(b) where you refer to what allegedly took place in 1991? You talk about sabotage, then you give details of - it looks like incidents that happened in Cape Town where you were involved in planting TNT and some self-made bombs. What is that all about? Is that part of your application or is that also a mistake?
MR ZIKINA: It is a mistake also. I thought the questions was what is it that I was doing during that period. I thought that the question was referring to something else so I can say that is a mistake because even the Police didn't give me explanation and I was filling in the form in a hurry. I regret that I mentioned that.
JUDGE POTGIETER: Yes, so are you saying you are not asking for amnesty for this or these incidents that you're talking about here in paragraph 10(b)?
MR ZIKINA: No, they are not included in my application.
JUDGE POTGIETER: Very well, thank you.
MR GQAMANE: Thank you Mr Chairperson, that is the evidence on behalf of the applicant, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR GQAMANE
MS THABETHE: I have no questions, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zikina, Mr Veto has made a statement to us. It's to be found on page 8 of the bundle. On page 10 of that statement he says that you know nothing about what happened outside this hall. Have you got any comment on that?
MR ZIKINA: Do you mean in my statement? I do not understand the question.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright, let me read to you, let me read his second last paragraph that he has signed, of the statement that he signed. He says
"I am clearly convinced that the applicant, Zondalele Thembile Zikina, did not apply his mind his well in applying for amnesty but only wanted to impress criminal prisoners he was arrested with after his release from Robben Island. He really has no reason to apply for amnesty for something that he knows nothing about."
What do you say about that?
MR ZIKINA: My response will be like this. If I can get an opportunity I'll ask him if he was there and monitoring the whole thing in this Centenary Hall.
CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me?
MR ZIKINA: I want to know if as a person who says he was not here in the hall, it is clear now that he was here in the Centenary and monitoring the situation.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Gqamane, is there any other witnesses you'd like to call on behalf of the applicant?
MR GQAMANE: Chairperson, no other witnesses, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the end of his application as far as evidence is concerned?
MR ZIKINA: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, have you got any witnesses or evidence?
MS THABETHE: No witnesses, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So that's the end of the evidence?
MS THABETHE: That's the end of the evidence. Maybe I should put it on record, Mr Chairperson, that there was a newspaper advert made for any victims. We haven't heard anything from anybody.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zikina, one of my colleagues would like to ask you a question or two.
ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
You say you were a member of the Black Consciousness Movement at the time. Who was the national leader of that organisation in 1976?
MR ZIKINA: I was just a follower, I was not a formal member. I think it was Steve Biko.
ADV SANDI: Did you know anything about BPC at the time?
MR ZIKINA: I think it was formed in 1972. Black People's Convention, that's how it was called.
ADV SANDI: Did you know anything SASO at that time?
MR ZIKINA: Yes, the members of SASO were my neighbours. Mr Bam was one of the members.
ADV SANDI: What was SASO in full?
MR ZIKINA: South African Student Organisation.
ADV SANDI: As a member of the Black Consciousness Movement, how did you go about showing your support for this organisation, that is before this particular incident you've been talking about?
MR ZIKINA: We were still learning more about the principles of Black Consciousness Movement.
ADV SANDI: What were those principles?
MR ZIKINA: ...(no interpretation)
ADV SANDI: I understood you to say you were ...(intervention)
MR ZIKINA: I was just a follower but I was still learning because I wanted to know what was SASO, was is it that the black people should do and what is it that they should know about oppression, mental oppression and physical oppression. That was the first clause and the second clause was still to follow.
ADV SANDI: The name Mapethla Mohape, does it have any significance to you?
MR ZIKINA: He was a member of the Black Consciousness.
ADV SANDI: Where is he know?
MR ZIKINA: I think he passed away.
ADV SANDI: What happened to him?
MR ZIKINA: I have so many things in my mind, I cannot remember. I think he was pushed out of a train by a security policeman. It was a train accident.
ADV SANDI: Was he not also one of the prominent leaders of the Black Consciousness Movement?
MR ZIKINA: Yes he was one of the leaders, founder members of the movement.
ADV SANDI: I understood you to say that you were very young in 1976 but when I go through your papers it appears that you were born in 1940. So in 1976 you must have been 36?
MR ZIKINA: I was 23 years, I was born in 1953. The officer during application of the I.D. made a mistake. I was born in 1953, the 27th July and he just asked me about my age and I told him that I was 40 years old. I was born in 1953.
ADV SANDI: Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gqamane, have you got any submissions to make?
MR GQAMANE IN ARGUMENT: Yes thank you Chairperson and the Honourable Members of the Committee.
I wish to submit to the Committee that the applicant should be granted amnesty on the basis that his conduct on the 7th August 1976 were acts associated with political objectives
although it's clear that there was no orders that were given by the BCM to do what they did. But out of the evidence that ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: What objective did he have?
MR GQAMANE: As he indicated to the Committee that his objective was to liberate the oppressed black people of this country as they were then.
CHAIRPERSON: Which he would not have done had there not been a boxing match?
MR GQAMANE: Yes Chairperson. We should look at the incident accumulatively, Chairperson. Looking at the incident of what happened at the Khama Primary School, Chairperson, and I'll submit to the Committee that it's clear if we take our situation in 1976, the education then, Chairperson, and it's clear from motive or objective when they burned down this Khama Primary School was an act associated with political objective, they were against the then education system, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gqamane, that may be so. Look at it realistically. On that day had there not been a boxing tournament here at this hall, the incident outside this hall would not have taken place, is that not so?
MR GQAMANE: Yes, I will agree with you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: It was not a planned matter, it was not a planned incident, correct?
MR GQAMANE: Yes I agree with you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: There was no meeting either before or after the incident or during the incident, correct?
MR GQAMANE: Yes, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: He himself says that the reason he threw stones at the Police was because he realised he was not going to get a refund for the ticket that he had purchased or which he could not use, not so?
MR GQAMANE: Yes that is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: That is not political?
MR GQAMANE: I agree with you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: He then ventures and in my view, as an afterthought, amongst other things which he goes on to colour with a political flavour, but essentially his activities that day was brought about by his fear of not being refunded for a ticket he purchased to attend this boxing match and he could not use that ticket because the hall was too full and he was being prevented from coming in. Is that not actually the situation?
MR GQAMANE: Yes, indeed so, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Then I must ask then, how does the commission of the offence or offences that he relates to, how does that become politically motivated?
MR GQAMANE: Chairperson, if according to his evidence the incident was not planned, it was an incident that took place out of a spare moment, if I may call it that way, Chairperson, and therefore I'll associate that incident that occurred here at the great Centenary Hall with the incident of what occurred at the Khama Primary School, Chairperson, and there was not going to be personal gain for him, Chairperson, of burning down the school and as we understand the situation at the time, there was no leadership and people were doing anything that can liberate them, Chairperson and I will submit to the Committee that his incident or his conduct or his act, Chairperson, are associated with political objectives. Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Anything else?
MR GQAMANE: Nothing further to add, Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: How do you explain all these mistakes as he calls them that he made in his application? Those were clear questions which he answered and those answers don't fall in line with his evidence now. How do you contend with those?
MR GQAMANE: If I may firstly refer on paragraph 7(a), Chairperson. There he indicated that he understands the question being whether he is a member of the African National Congress of which he is saying that he is a member of the organisation and he was a follower of Umkhonto weSizwe, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 9, I think it is?
MR GQAMANE: Sorry Mr Chairperson?
CHAIRPERSON: Where he is asked to describe the acts for which he seeks amnesty and he goes ahead and says he is seeking amnesty for sabotage and he goes further and says I was with so and so and so and so and so and so. Now he comes to this hearing and he says now they weren't there?
MR GQAMANE: On paragraph 9, Chairperson, there's nothing I can say to the Committee, Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, we don't need to hear you. We are going to reserve the decision on this matter and it will be delivered in due course.
MR GQAMANE: Thank you Chairperson and the Members of the Committee.
WITNESS EXCUSED
