Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, we'd like to thank you for the helpful memorandum which you have furnished us with. We do hope that it will help to expedite matters.

Mr Tshabangu?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, before Mr Tshabangu continues, could the memorandum be marked Exhibit O please.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, the memorandum submitted on behalf of the victims, which is dated the 8th of August, will then be handed in as Exhibit O. By the way, I beg your pardon, you don't have any - do you have any objections to the memorandum handed in?

MR PRETORIUS: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MS CAMBANIS: No Chairperson.

MR STRYDOM: I have no objection.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Prior ...(indistinct)

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes indeed, as I understand the papers of the memo, it is merely to outline the case of the victims and to indicate as far as practical where areas of dispute lie.

MR PRIOR: I've said that, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Until such time that there is agreement on the contents of the memo, it can , you know those admitted matters may then acquire the status of the evidence. Am I right in that understanding Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Yes Chairperson, the - I'm sorry, if I could also just place on record, the purpose of this memorandum, as you've correctly pointed out Chairperson, is to reduce areas of dispute between the victims and the applicants. We hope that our learned friends for the applicants, after having gone through the memorandum, will be in a position to indicate which paragraphs are admitted and which are disputed. Those which are disputed we will then be leading evidence on.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tshabangu have I reminded you that you're under oath? I'm now reminding you that you are under oath.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: (s.u.o.)

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson before my learned friend continues, I just want to place on record that four of the applicants are not here yet. The four are the people that are in custody. Apparently two of them had to appear in some criminal court this morning. I was informed about that yesterday, but they said they'll come here in any event. So, but I don't know what went wrong, but apparently they are on their way and I've objection if we continue in the meantime without them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes ...(indistinct). Yes Mr Berger?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: (continued) Thank you Chairperson. Mr Tshabangu there is a matter that I must clear up with you. Mr Miga came to me yesterday after the hearings and again this morning, and he was perturbed that what I had in fact put to you might not, might have been not as I had been instructed, and he wants me to correct that. You will remember yesterday I put to you that at your hearing you and Getisi Victor Gerswa threatened to assault Mr Miga, do you remember that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Mr Miga says I overstated the position, and the position is as follows: actual hearing and in a corridor outside the court. Mr Miga was walking along and you and Victor Gerswa and others came in his direction and you blocked his way, and he says that he felt threatened and intimidated by your actions, not to say that you verbally threatened to assault him. Do you have any comment on that?

MR TSHABANGU: That didn't happen.

MR BERGER: You also state in your affidavit that bodies of IFP members which had been buried were dug up and burned, are you referring to an incident in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: You also state in your affidavit that prior to the attack, a month before the attack on Boipatong, there was a march on kwaMadala by ANC supporters. Are you not mistaken, and that the true position is that on the 18th of June 1992, after the attack on Boipatong, the residents of Boipatong marched towards kwaMadala Hostel, but they were stopped and turned back?

MR TSHABANGU: Before the 17th of June 1992 the ANC, that is the ANC at Boipatong, marched to kwaMadala threatening that we should be evicted and the hostel should be demolished. And these were the utterances of the ANC itself that the hostels should be demolished at the time.

MR BERGER: You spoke yesterday in your evidence about an incident in Sharpeville where you were surrounded and accused of being a police informer. It was at a time when you were with Mr Mbatha. Do you remember that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And it's your evidence that the people who confronted you specifically said that Mr Mbatha could go and that they weren't interested in him, but they were interested in you. Is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: No that Mbatha alone, they also released other people with whom we were walking, and they confronted me, but it was only one of those people.

MR BERGER: When was that?

MR TSHABANGU: ...(inaudible) I think it was somewhere around 1990/'92 - early in 1992.

MR BERGER: They said to you and this whole group that you were in, including Mr Mbatha, "here are the Zulus", but then let everyone go except you.

MR TSHABANGU: After they were manhandled and assaulted, they were released and they came to me.

MR BERGER: It was your evidence yesterday that this group of people who confronted you said Bongane Mbatha should go, "they surrounded me but I managed to escape". Wasn't it your evidence yesterday that you were the specific target of this group of people?

MR TSHABANGU: I did say something like that yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: The persons that were released, were they only released after they had been assaulted?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How were they assaulted?

MR TSHABANGU: They were manhandled, kicked and beaten with bottles.

CHAIRPERSON: And beaten with bottles?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, bottles.

CHAIRPERSON: Broken bottles?

MR TSHABANGU: I won't know because it was in front of the tavern, at the gate of the tavern, but I do not remember whether the bottles were broken or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Roughly how long did this assault on these persons last?

MR TSHABANGU: It happened so quickly, it may have been one or two minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: And how people were in this group?

MR TSHABANGU: The ones who were attacking us?

CHAIRPERSON: I mean those who were being attacked.

MR TSHABANGU: Are you referring to the people in my company - I'm speaking under correction, there may have been four or six.

CHAIRPERSON: And those who were attacking you, how many were they?

MR TSHABANGU: They may have been seventeen.

MR BERGER: And this took place in Sharpeville?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: You also mentioned yesterday that you never complained to anybody in a leadership position in the hostel about the things that were happening to you, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I also said that at the meeting that was held at the stadium I was actually one of the people who were complaining about our being killed. I am explaining here I never went to a specific leader and complained to him, but yes, I was one of the people who spoke at the meeting at the stadium.

MR BERGER: This is the meeting three weeks before the attack, or the meeting one week before the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: I do not remember which meeting it was exactly.

MR BERGER: You attended a number of meetings, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: At your criminal trial you told the court that after your arrival at kwaMadala you and Mr Moses Mthembu sat down and had a discussion about your position. You discussed your residence at kwaMadala, and the fact that you were still a member of the police, do you remember that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Was that evidence true and correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And you also discussed your suspension from the Police Force, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: I do not remember.

MR BERGER: And you discussed that even though you had been suspended from the police you would not be allowed to attend any meetings held in the hostel.

MR TSHABANGU: I do not remember that.

MR BERGER: Well let me read to you what you said. Chairperson it's at page 3574 of the record. You were accused no 74 were you not?

MR TSHABANGU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do we have the record? Oh reading from the judgment.

MR BERGER: Judgment yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh I see, I beg your pardon.

MR PRIOR: The evidence at the trial, of the accused's evidence when he testified, not from the judgment. Mr Chairman, when the bundle was prepared, I understand only the judgment was put up and not the thousands of pages of the record.

MR BERGER: That's correct, but I'll read the relevant portion into the record anyway.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you just give me the page.

MR BERGER: It's page 3574 Chairperson.

Starting at line 17 - well if I can just a little bit higher, you were asked whether - you said that in the beginning of 1991 you went to go and stay in the hostel, and you said that in the hostel, it was you, your mother and your two younger brothers. Do you remember that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: You were then asked,

"Was u op daardie stadium nog 'n lid van die Mag gewees?"

You said yes, you were still a member of the Force.

You were asked:

"Where you in full-time service or were you ..."

the Afrikaans word is "geskors".

" ... and I understand that to be suspended"

You said:

"Ek was geskors"

Is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember whether I said that. It might as well be that you are correct I said that, and I may not deny it as well, even though I do not remember.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Tshabangu, the purpose of this exercise is just to remind you that this is what you said. So all that counsel wants to find out, is whether - did you in fact say what appears at page 3574 of the record.

MR TSHABANGU: I do understand.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu just to assist you, you can accept that what is here is in fact a recording of what you said, this is part of the appeal record for purposes of your appeal to the Supreme Court of Appeal in Bloemfontein.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes I accept that.

MR BERGER: Now at line 17 you were asked

"Met u aankoms daar by die hostel, het u enige reëlings met beskuldigde 73 ...",

that's Mr Moses Mthembu.

"... getref betreffende oor vergaderings en diesmeer wat daar in die hostel gehou word?"

Your answer was:

"Na my aankoms daar het ek en meneer Moses Mthembu, beskuldigde 73, gaan sit en ons het gesels oor myself. Ons het ook gesels oor my verblyf daar, en ook die feit dat ek nog 'n lid is van die Polisie. Al is ek geskors mag ek nie enige vergaderings bywoon wat daar gehou mag word nie. Ek kan net noem dat hy het daarop aangedring dat sonder enige rede om die vergadering by te woon nie."

I - that is as it's been typed, and I think there's a word or two out there. What you were saying is, Mr Moses Mthembu said to you, even though you are suspended, you are still a member of the Force and for no reason are you allowed to attend meetings in the hostel.

MR TSHABANGU: It was myself who indicated that I am not supposed to attend meetings, it was not Mthembu who suggested that I should not attend meetings. Yes, I concur with what you've just read.

MR BERGER: And why were you not supposed to attend meetings?

MR TSHABANGU: That was a policy that was used by the Police Force at the time.

MR BERGER: Because you were still regarded as a member of the South African Police?

MR TSHABANGU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You still had your official firearm issued by the police, correct?

MR TSHABANGU: That is not correct.

MR BERGER: Even though you were not supposed to attend meetings you did in fact attend meetings, did you not?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Why did you complain to Mr Mkhize in the stadium at either the meeting three weeks before or the meeting one week before about what was happening, why did you choose Mkhize?

MR TSHABANGU: I was confined, I was not used to living under such conditions, it was difficult. Things that were happening to me and other people with whom I was staying there, these things happened over and over and over, and these things registered in my heart. And I realised that it was about time I became one of them by all means, that is why I was attending the meetings.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu proceedings would go a lot faster if you listened to my question and answered my question. My question was not why did you complain, my question was why did you choose Mkhize to complain to.

MR TSHABANGU: He was the one chairing the meeting, in other words, he was playing a leadership role at the time, he was with Damarra.

MR BERGER: And what leadership role was he playing, what position did he occupy at that time in the hostel?

MR TSHABANGU: Insofar as structures are concerned, I was not clear as to who was occupying what position. I only saw people in leadership roles, I did not question as to who occupying what position. But the fact is that Mkhize was one of the leaders, himself and Damarra at the Madala hostel at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Accepting that probably at the time when you arrived at the hostel, you may not have known what positions Mkhize and Damarra had, did you subsequently establish what their positions were?

MR TSHABANGU: No I had not established that when I left, I didn't know. I just saw the leaders, I knew them as leaders because they were always taking the front seat when meetings were held where people were addressed, and I didn't know who was Chairman of what commission. I subsequently left the place not knowing who was occupying what position.

MR BERGER: Mr Mkhize says in his amnesty application that he was the leader of the Amabuto, which he classifies as a specific structure within the kwaMadala Hostel. Now surely you would have heard about this?

MR TSHABANGU: I do not deny that, I do not accept it either. What I know is that Mkhize was a leader. Whether he was a leader of Amabuto or not, I don't know. Yes, I agree that he was one of the leaders.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu you come across as a highly intelligent man. Are you telling the Committee that you lived with the men of kwaMadala for more than a year and you did not know what Mr Mkhize's position within the hostel was?

MR TSHABANGU: With all due respect Adv Berger, believe it or not, yes, that's how it is.

MR BERGER: Well let me ask you about Mr Damarra Chonco. Mr Victor Mthembu, himself a leader within the hostel says at page 5, paragraph 6, that Damarra Chonco was the leader of the hit-squads from Umsinge. He was the leader of the hit-squad in the kwaMadala Hostel as well. Did you know that?

MR TSHABANGU: No, I was not aware of the hit-squads existing at the hostel, the hit-squads themselves having come from Umsinge. I had no knowledge of this.

MR BERGER: The ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Give ...(inaudible)

MR BERGER: Chairperson it's - no, no I'm not going onto a new point yet, but ...

CHAIRPERSON: Given the circumstances under which the residents of the kwaMadala Hostel were living, that of constant fear of being attacked, they could not go out without risking their lives, we understand that there were women and there were probably children also within the hostel. To your knowledge, were their any steps taken to provide protection to the residents of the hostel? Was there a committee or a group of men - or a group of persons who were in charge of security to ensure the safety of the residents?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know about the people who were in charge as far as safety was concerned at the hostel. I know that there were measures that were taken at times so that they could acquire things that will be used for our protection.

MR LAX: Could I just follow up on that, you said you knew there were measures taken to acquire things for your protection. Who organised the acquiring of those things, as far as you could see?

MR TSHABANGU: We will be called to a meeting by Damarra Chonco and they will tell us that we need to collect some money so we could purchase some firearms. They will be the one address us more often than not.

MR LAX: Who would you give the money to?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't quite remember as to who we will be giving the money to. In actual fact I would not give any money because I wasn't employed, but most of the people who used to contribute were the ones who were employed.

MR LAX: Thanks Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.

Who was in control of weapons at kwaMadala Hostel?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know.

MR BERGER: The reason you don't know Mr Tshabangu is because you know that Mr Vanana Zulu was in control of weapons at kwaMadala Hostel, isn't that right?

MR TSHABANGU: It is not so, I came here to ask for amnesty against my heart and in a position of wanting to reconcile with my people. There is no reason why I should implicate other people. It is my life and I'm the one suffering. I have no reason also to protect other people, including Vanana Zulu. I have no reason whatsoever to protect him.

MR BERGER: Except fear?

MR TSHABANGU: I have no fear. If I fear something I will report that to the police. I will lay my story to the police.

MR BERGER: Vanana Zulu has been present every day of these hearings. Isn't it because he was the leader of kwaMadala Hostel, and he's come here to make sure that he is not exposed. Isn't that what's happening?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes he's a controller at kwaMadala Hostel, as well as Vaal Triangle at large. I don't know whether he's here to make sure that, or to ensure that he doesn't get exposed, but one thing for sure, as far as I am concerned I will never protect him.

CHAIRPERSON: See, Mr Berger quite frankly you will recall that the last time we were here, Mr Vanana Zulu was implicated and I made him to stand up and enquired of him whether he wishes to be legally represented, and I also advised him that he has to be here, and that's why he's here. Do you think it's a fair question?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I have no doubt that Mr Vanana Zulu has a right to be here.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm just looking at - because you're putting it as a fact that that's the reason why, that's not a fair question.

MR BERGER: Chairperson ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And that he has all the right to be here.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, Vanana Zulu sits with the applicants; he associates with the applicants during the adjournments; he is always in the company of the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, so what? He is here because he has been advised that he must be here if he wishes to be here. And he is legally represented as I understand the position, by Mr Strydom.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I take the ruling.

Mr Tshabangu, you say that Mr Vanana Zulu was not only the leader of kwaMadala Hostel, he was also the leader of the entire Vaal, correct?

MR TSHABANGU: When you're referring to 1992 backwards, he was a leader at kwaMadala Hostel. After the situation got stable, especially after the elections, when there was stability, he became a leader of Vaal. That's what I'm trying to explain.

MR BERGER: So what you're saying is that at the time of the attack Mr Vanana Zulu was the leader only of kwaMadala Hostel?

MR TSHABANGU: According to my knowledge it is like that.

MR BERGER: Now Mr Mthembu says that Vanana Zulu was in control of the weapons; that he hid them at kwaMadala Hostel; that he handed them out, and that he was the person who told the residents that they had to contribute money for the purchase of guns. Do you confirm that?

MR TSHABANGU: I do not confirm that. What was uttered by Victor Mthembu has been uttered by him. I stand firm on my words by saying he was a leader. I don't know him to be controlling the weapons. I bear no knowledge in as far as controlling the weapons is concerned. Those are my words and I stand by them.

MR BERGER: You also say that you have no knowledge of the fact that there were 40 to 50 men from Umsinge who had to be maintained by the residents of kwaMadala Hostel, and that the residents were afraid of these men from Umsinge.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I bear no knowledge.

MR BERGER: You also bear no knowledge of any self-protection units set up to defend the residents of kwaMadala Hostel?

MR TSHABANGU: There was no self-protection unit. Every person who was a resident there, it was his entire responsibility to protect the hostel. So it was everyone's responsibility to protect the hostel.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that all the residents of the hostel were divided up into small units?

MR TSHABANGU: That I don't know.

MR BERGER: For a person, Mr Tshabangu, who claimed to be so concerned about safety, your safety and the safety of other people at kwaMadala, I put it to you that you display an amazing level of ignorance regarding the structures which had been put in place to defend kwaMadala, and to launch attacks from kwaMadala.

MR TSHABANGU: I stand firm by my words that I was not aware at any stage about the protection unit - the groups of protection unit, and the people around 40 in number from Umsinge who were feared by people, that we used to contribute towards their maintenance. If somebody else takes this as if I should be knowing everything and all the activities that were going on at the hostel, I think a person will be highly mistaken if he takes me to be that kind of a person. As a police, people will not come near and closer to me because they were always suspicious. So I wouldn't be too close to the people, that's how I got to be ignorant.

MR BERGER: I will just ask one more question on this point and then move on Mr Tshabangu, you say that the people at kwaMadala also didn't like you because you were a policeman, but be that as it may, you nevertheless attended many meetings where these things must have been discussed?

MR TSHABANGU: I did not say they did not like me as such, what I'm saying is that people were suspicious. People get to be suspicious when you are a police and in a battle position. They will always think you are coming to be an informer, especially when it comes to political matters, people will highly suspect a police as an informer, but I will definitely attend their meetings.

MR BERGER: And yet on approximately the 10th of June you were one of the people who was most vocal about the need to do something about the situation, and as a result a decision was taken - or in fact an order was given, in your presence, that Boipatong was to be attacked.

MR TSHABANGU: I did say that. It was not necessarily said that we shall attack Boipatong and that Boipatong was a target.

MR BERGER: I'll leave that contradiction alone Mr Tshabangu. On the 14th of June 1992 there was another meeting in the hostel. That meeting was addressed by Themba Xhosa and a man called Dlamini. You say you no knowledge of that meeting?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Do you have any knowledge of this man Mr Dlamini?

MR TSHABANGU: What is his first name? I will answer you as soon as you furnish me with that information.

MR BERGER: His first name is Mr, and he was sent by a minister in the kwaZulu Government.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger do you know the first name of Mr Dlamini, or don't you know it?

MR BERGER: I just know him as Mr, and to try and assist you, he was sent by a minister in the kwaZulu Government to come and look after the interests of IFP members in the Vaal.

MR TSHABANGU: There are a number of Mr Dlamini's that I know of. When I requested you to furnish me with his first name, I'm not trying to make it difficult for you to question me, but I'm trying to make it easier for me in order to respond right. It may happen that I will be referring to this kind of Mr Dlamini and yet you are talking about a different Mr Dlamini, so please furnish me with his first name so I answer you correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tshabangu he doesn't know the first name of Mr Dlamini. We understand you know a number of Mr Dlamini's, is that right?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, that's right.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu, you were present when Mr Victor Mthembu gave evidence, and you will recall that I questioned him about this Mr Dlamini, and you will recall that he confirmed the existence of this Mr Dlamini, and spoke about this Mr Dlamini.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes I do remember, but I don't quite remember as to which Dlamini. If you may tell me about his job-description, maybe I would be in a position to recall the details and be in a position to answer you correctly.

MR BERGER: Very well, I'll do that. Just bear with me.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tshabangu do you know of any meeting that was addressed by Mr Themba Xhosa and a Mr Dlamini?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: Thank you, I now have it. Mr Mthembu was asked

"You state that you were present at the general meeting held in the hostel approximately a week before the attack", and he's asked certain questions.

And then in question 20.4 he's asked:

"Who is Dlamini, who you allege was present during this meeting, and what is his position in the IFP?"

And then at page 31 Mr Mthembu says:

"He is an honourable man who was sent by a minister of the IFP from Durban to look after the members of the IFP in the Vaal Triangle as a whole."

I can tell you further that at page 8 of his affidavit Mr Mthembu talks about Dlamini being accompanied by a member of the kwaZulu Police, a person by the name of Ngabelo, who he says was his bodyguard. Dlamini at the meeting said, "that the problem of our people who were being killed must be reported to Buthelezi". And you'll remember I asked Mr Mthembu which Buthelezi, and it was established that it's Chief Mangusotho Buthelezi. Now having told you all of that, are you now able to identify who the Mr Dlamini is?

MR TSHABANGU: It becomes clear to me that Mr Dlamini was a representative of the kwaZulu Government in Vereeniging. I'm not aware of any meeting on which he addressed together with Themba Xhosa.

MR BERGER: Where were you on the Sunday before the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't want to lie, I don't remember. I don't remember because I used to come in and out going out to buy some stock.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu, I'm putting it to you that the reason you don't remember the meeting is because it was at this meeting where the attack on Boipatong was discussed - the forthcoming attack.

MR TSHABANGU: It's not correct, as I've already agreed or accepted, that I was at - I'm sorry ...

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) that on the 14th of June 1992, the attack on Boipatong was discussed?

MR BERGER: Yes, that is what I'm putting to the witness.

MR TSHABANGU: It's not true that I'm denying or hiding something. I don't remember being in a meeting which was addressed by Dlamini and Themba Xhosa, and I don't know why I should try to hide anything about it.

MR BERGER: Chairperson I'm also putting to the witness that this was one of the meetings where the plans to attack Boipatong were finalized.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) a fact to the witness, we've got to record that accurately, so that we can hear evidence to that effect at a later stage so that there can be no misunderstanding as to what you put to the witness. So you're saying the plans to attack Boipatong were finalized at this meeting?

MR BERGER: No, I'm not saying that.

I'm putting to you Mr Tshabangu - let me tell you why I'm putting it to you, ...(intervention)

MS SIGODI: Mr Berger, my recording is that you put to the witness that this meeting - this is the meeting where the plans of attacking Boipatong were finalized, did I get it correctly?

MR BERGER: I said it was one of the meetings. Before that I said this was a meeting at which the attack on Boipatong was discussed, the forthcoming attack on Boipatong was discussed. Because ...

MS SIGODI: It's one of the meetings.

MR BERGER: Advocate Sigodi, I've tried to develop a theme of on the 10th, the 14th and the 17th.

MS SIGODI: Record what you are putting to the witness correctly.

MR STRYDOM: Just to get clarity, I just want to know if Mr Berger is putting this as a proposition or as a fact that he has evidence to that effect.

MR BERGER: Chairperson I'm putting it as proposition. Chairperson can I just state my position?

CHAIRPERSON: We understand your - don't worry about that, we understand. All we want to establish is when you put a proposition to the witness which is a matter of argument, that's different from telling the witness that at this meeting this is what happened, putting that as a fact. Because if you're stating it as a fact, one then expects that there will be evidence to the effect that at that meeting this is what happened. But when you're stating it as a proposition you want to argue later on, that having regard to the build up of the circumstances leading up to Boipatong, it is very probably that at that meeting of the 14th of June plans to attack Boipatong were discussed or finalized, as a probability.

MR BERGER: Well it goes ...

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) the applicants and every one of us to know what to expect. Do you understand what I'm trying to explain to you?

MR BERGER: Chairperson I understand it perfectly, but Chairperson when one cross-examines ...

CHAIRPERSON: If you put a proposition, do you understand the difference between a proposition and a fact that you're putting to the witness. That's all we're trying to say, that if you're putting a fact, let us know, if it's a proposition let us know. Because then ...(intervention)

MR BERGER: But Chairperson in cross-examination one doesn't have to do that. With respect one only has to put to the witness, "I put it to you" this and this and this; the witness comments on that, and then at the end of the day I can argue because the witness has had an opportunity to comment.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tshabangu we've heard evidence that there's a meeting that took place on the 14th of June 1992 shortly before the attack. That meeting was addressed by, amongst other persons, Mr Themba Xhosa we were told. Also present at that meeting was a Mr Dlamini. The first question is, do you recall that meeting?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Part of the reasons why you don't recall this meeting is because at this meeting one of the things that occurred was that the plans to attack Boipatong were discussed or finalized, and you're concealing that fact.

MR TSHABANGU: No Sir, it's not like that, I don't know of that meeting, and I'm not in a position to hide anything. The meeting of the 14th, it's unknown to me. I'm not saying there was no such a meeting, but I wasn't present, and I don't know anything about such meeting.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu, you told the Committee yesterday that you could not explain why there was a delay of approximately a week between the 10th and the 17th before Boipatong was attacked.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Now the facts that I have at my disposal are of necessity gleaned from what you and your fellow applicants say happened at kwaMadala, and bearing in mind what you've said about the delay, Mr Victor Mthembu says that at this meeting of the 14th Themba Xhosa was angry at the killing of his people, and he said if the people come and attack you, you are supposed to fight back and kill them. Now Mr Victor Mthembu says that is a fact. What I'm putting to you from that fact and your evidence about the delay, is that the plans to attack Boipatong must have been discussed at this meeting on the 14th, that you know about that, and that you are concealing it because you do not want to implicate Themba Xhosa.

MR TSHABANGU: That is not true. It's not the way you put it. There is no reason why I shall try to protect Themba Xhosa or any other person. If these people put my life in danger - my life is in danger in this present moment, and I'm here to ask for amnesty. I will not put my life into danger to protect other people or to please other people. I stand by my words as I've stated, I don't have any knowledge of the meeting where these things were discussed, and I'm not denying that there was such a meeting, however I'm saying no, I was not present in such a meeting.

MR BERGER: You see the reason I'm putting these things to you is because by the time the night of the 17th came you knew, I put it to you, that when people were being called to the stadium, you knew now it's the time for the attack. To the extent that people went to the stadium already armed with their spears, assegais and so on.

MR TSHABANGU: I will try to correct your statement. On the 17th when we were called to the stadium most of us were not armed. We were to be sent back to go and arm ourselves from the houses. The reason for them sending us back is because we went there unarmed. You couldn't go to such a meeting unarmed if you knew that we were going to fight, therefore I would say you are making a mistake.

MR BERGER: I put this to you, is because if one has a look at Exhibit G, it's the statement of Moosa Tokosane Dlamini, and he says the following

"On Wednesday the 17th of June 1992 I was in my room at no 9 kwaMadala Hostel. We were four men in the room. I heard a Zulu trumpet outside, I went out of my room, I saw that people were gathering in the inner square of the hostel. I went to the group of people ...",

and this is the important part, he says:

"... Before I went out of my room I armed myself with the traditional shield, knobkierrie and a stick. When I came to the group of people, or when I joined them, I heard the Induna of the young men in the hostel speaking with the group. His name is Mkhize ...",

and again this is the important part:

"... All the people in the group were armed with kierries, sticks and some had assegais. Mkhize said that we were going to Tletlela, this is our name for Boipatong, to fight."

And he then says that you moved out to Boipatong. The point I'm making is that in his statement he says that by the time the men gathered they were already armed. Do you understand what I'm putting to you?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes I understand that, but I don't agree with that statement because when you look at the statement of state witness Bujose in the trial case of Boipatong, it says that we were turned back to go and arm ourselves because we were not armed in the beginning, and that is a fact, that's how it happened and I stand by my words that we went to the stadium unarmed.

MR BERGER: Do you accept the evidence of the state witness Bujose in all respects?

MR TSHABANGU: If you are to refer to Moosa's statement I shall think we should also use Majose's statement, and it's not only Majose who was saying that, that we went to the stadium unarmed and we were sent back. If the others still remember well they would come and confirm that that's what happened.

MR BERGER: My question to you is, do you accept all the evidence of the state witness Mr Bujose?

MR TSHABANGU: With reference to the part where it was said that we went to the stadium armed and we were turned back, I do agree or accept his evidence, but I'm not accepting the whole of his evidence. Your Honour I would like to make you understand that people like Moosa, they were ill-treated or assaulted before they give the statements, therefore they didn't give them freely and voluntarily, they were forced to make statements. When they were coming out of prison they were shocked and assaulted, I think by the police who were investigating their cases.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that you shared a room with Teresa Mofoking?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Is it also correct that you shared a room with Timothy Mazibuko?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: At the trial Timothy Mazibuko denied that Teresa Mofoking shared a room with the two of you. That denial was false, correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that after the attack, that Timothy Mazibuko returned to the hostel with a duvet which was full of blood, and that he washed that duvet the following morning?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know about that.

MR BERGER: You shared the same room, didn't you see that bloody duvet that night or the following morning, and see Timothy Mazibuko washing it?

MR TSHABANGU: I didn't see him.

MR BERGER: Did you see Timothy Mazibuko when he came back after the attack, and if so, when was that?

MR TSHABANGU: I saw him in the room where we were staying.

MR BERGER: Was this on the night immediately after the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And you spoke to him the following morning, the morning of the 18th?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember.

MR BERGER: You saw him in your room when you woke up that morning, the 18th?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember.

MR BERGER: At the trial Mr Bujose gave evidence that you were in possession of a pump-gun, and that you shot at people in the vicinity of Cape Gate.

MR TSHABANGU: Majose was lying, I wasn't armed with a pump-gun. I didn't even reach the Cape Gate point. He was lying, no such a thing happened.

MR BERGER: So in some respects Bujose was lying, in other respects he was telling the truth?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: ...(inaudible) said that you came to get weapons and "lappies" from the room. Is that a lie or is that the truth?

MR TSHABANGU: It's correct to say that I came to collect a knobkierrie and a lap, and I went out.

MR BERGER: So she was telling the truth in that regard?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: She also said that on the 18th of June you and accused no 60, who was Timothy Stals Mazibuko, were having a conversation about a television set which you had carried to the fire during the burning of goods and evidence in kwaMadala. Was she telling the truth or was she telling a lie?

MR TSHABANGU: She's lying. As I'm saying to you that I don't remember seeing Timothy Mazibuko ...(indistinct) in the morning. I know that he normally wakes up in the morning and goes to his places in the morning, or I will wake up earlier than him and go somewhere before he wakes up. We are staying in rooms which are like a hall where you can see that they are divided. If refers to the TV, I last saw him throwing away the TV on the road after we just crossed a bridge, that's where he dropped the TV. I didn't see any duvet with blood, or I didn't take any TV on the following day and throw it on the fire.

MR BERGER: Are you aware of the fire the following day where goods stolen from Boipatong and evidence linking the residents of Boipatong to the attack was burned?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Were you at the meeting addressed by Themba Xhosa on the day following the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Mr Humphrey Ndlovu was also at that meeting, correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And at that meeting Themba Xhosa give the instruction that all evidence linked to the massacre, including goods stolen from the hostel, clothes stained with blood, should be burned?

MR TSHABANGU: I was in the meeting in which Themba Xhosa arrived with a certain Brigadier or a General. I don't remember the name of that General or Brigadier. He came together with Themba Xhosa and Themba said that we must co-operate with the police because they wanted to ask us some questions. He never said that he shall take all the goods that you confiscated at Boipatong and burned them. And further, the police were already inside kwaMadala Hostel.

MR BERGER: You were asked this question by the evidence leader of the TRC in a request for further particulars, it's paragraph 5.2 on page 170. In question 5 you were asked whether Themba Xhosa and Humphrey Ndlovu visited after the attack, you said yes.

5.1 you were asked for particulars of the nature of the visit, you gave an answer.

5.2 you were asked about Themba Xhosa giving this instruction to burn, you never answered that question. Why not?

MR TSHABANGU: You are referring to 5.2, I can't see it. I can only see 5 and 5.1 where I stated they came after the police have closed the whole stadium and asked us to co-operate with them. I can't see 5.2 on the forms.

MR BERGER: ...(inaudible) why you never answered question 5.2. If you have a look at page 170 you will see question 5.2, and I see that you understand English.

MR TSHABANGU: Give me some time, I will just have to check the 5.2 you are talking about. Maybe not to waste time Sir ... In 5.2 there is a question stated as he's reading it out ... "and all evidence that linked the attackers to the massacre, including goods stolen from the hostel and clothes stained with blood." Is that the question?

MR BERGER: Yes Mr Tshabangu.

MR TSHABANGU: No goods were stolen from the hostel and Themba Xhosa never stated that people should burn the goods. That's my answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger are you still pursuing this point or are you going to another point?

MR BERGER: I just want to check something in the bundle Chairperson.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman with respect, and I don't want to steal my learned friend's thunder, if there's such a thing, but it seems that all the other applicants have dealt with that question 5.2 relating to the burning of goods. It's in respect of this applicant that there doesn't seem to be a reply prepared in the further particulars. So I think my learned friend is - whether he's suggesting that he deliberately avoided answering that question, or there may be some other explanation why that question wasn't prepared in his further particulars. But I submit it doesn't take the matter any further.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson I was the draughtsman of this, and I cannot really remember if I just forgot to add that, or because we saw that the word "hostel" was there, and we deliberately decided not to answer that question, I cannot remember.

MR BERGER: Chairperson my point is that the question was framed exactly the same way for all of the other applicants, and they all managed to answer the question. It was framed in exactly the same way to Mr Victor Mthembu, and he answered "yes". It was framed in the same way to another applicant, and he also answered "yes", an applicant represented by my learned friend.

CHAIRPERSON: But we're concerned about this applicant, that's the applicant we're dealing with here.

MR BERGER: The applicant I'm referring to is Sonny Michael Mkwanazi who was also represented by my learned friend. At page 136 he was asked the same question, and the word "hostel" is there. The point I'm making Chairperson is that it's quite clear, and was quite clear to my learned friend, what this question is about. And all I'm asking the witness is for an explanation as to why the question wasn't answered.

MR STRYDOM: My learned friend suggests that I gave the answers. I read the questions to them and I got the answers from the applicants.

MR BERGER: I'm not suggesting that my learned friend supplied the answers.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just get into any - let's just proceed. Put the question you want to put to the witness and let's proceed. Put the question to the witness that you want to put.

MR BERGER: Chairperson I don't understand why there's irritation with me.

CHAIRPERSON: Put your question to the witness so that we can get on. Put the question to - you know, because Mr Strydom is saying he was the one who read these things to the witness, to the applicants, he doesn't know why he - whether he omitted it because there was a wrong reference or not. The only person who will be able to tell us, if he knows, is the applicant, and then perhaps we can move, because if Mr Strydom doesn't, you know, is not able to tell us what is the reason for that omission.

MR BERGER: Chairperson can I please just have a moment to confer with my colleagues?

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a tea adjournment, we will come back at about ...(inaudible).

HEARING ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: May I remind you that you're still under oath, and for us to make progress at these hearings, would you please answer the question directly. Do you understand that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: If the answer that's being called is a "yes" or "no", just give that answer. Your counsel is here, if there's anything that he believes you have to explain, he will be given the opportunity to have you explain that. Do you understand that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Tshabangu you know that goods were not stolen from the hostel, in fact goods were stolen from Boipatong, correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: My question to you was, why did you not answer question 5.2 on page 170? Please can you answer that question directly.

MR TSHABANGU: I can't see it on the papers.

MR BERGER: It's on page 170, paragraph 5.2.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, Mr Tshabangu that's the question you read out to us yourself earlier, so we're not messing around here, just let's get to the answer please.

MR TSHABANGU: The only 5.2 that I can see, it's a question where I was supposed to provide an answer that doesn't appear on the papers. But if you're talking about things which were stolen in the hostel, I would say Themba Xhosa never gave instructions what the hostel-dwellers should do.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) speakers are making a noise, so I can't hear. I just want to hear what you are saying.

MR TSHABANGU: The only 5.2 available is the one where there are question where I had to give an answer. Presently I can answer 5.2 in this way, if you're referring to things - goods stolen at Boipatong, my answer will be no.

CHAIRPERSON: Counsel understands that that's your answer today, what counsel wants to find out is, and you've just said so yourself, that there is - you did - there is no response from you to question 5.2, right?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What counsel wants to find out from you is, when you look at page 173 of your answers to that request for further particulars, do you see that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: There is no response from you to that question. Now why is that so, why did you not respond to that question?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know why.

MR BERGER: The reason I'm suggesting to you Mr Tshabangu, why you didn't answer that question, is again, you don't want to say anything which will implicate Themba Xhosa.

MR TSHABANGU: It's not correct.

MR BERGER: Let's move to the meeting in the hostel on the 17th of June. Can you recall who gave the instruction that Boipatong was to be attacked, and what did he say?

MR TSHABANGU: I won't be able to remember properly, everything that happened on that 17th, I will say the people in charge were Damarra and Mkhize.

MR BERGER: And Mtwana Zulu?

MR TSHABANGU: I didn't see him on the 17th of June 1992.

MR BERGER: When last did you see him before the 17th of June 1992?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember.

MR BERGER: You don't want to commit yourself to any time or date at all, is that right?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes it is correct, but I do confirm that I didn't see him on the 17th.

MR BERGER: Would you agree with the statement that nothing of significance happened at kwaMadala Hostel without the consent of Mr Mtwana Zulu?

MR TSHABANGU: I'm not sure, but I know him as a prominent leader, above most of the leaders.

MR BERGER: Do you dispute that Mr Mtwana Zulu was in charge of the attack on Boipatong, and in fact present in Boipatong at the time of the attack, do you dispute that?

MR TSHABANGU: I deny that.

MR BERGER: I can put it to you as a fact that you are wrong.

MR TSHABANGU: I stand by my words that on the 17th I didn't see him at Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Are you saying that he might have been in Boipatong and you didn't see him; or you can state positively as fact that he was not in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I'm saying, on our way when I was with the group I didn't see him. Even at the hostel, when we left the hostel, he wasn't there.

MR BERGER: Are you saying it's possible that he was in Boipatong and you never saw him?

MR TSHABANGU: I'm not saying that.

MR BERGER: What was your attitude to the attack, were you in favour or against?

MR TSHABANGU: I was in favour of the attack.

MR BERGER: So when you say it's Mr Mkhize or Damarra Chonco told you and the other men at the stadium that night, tonight is the night that we are attacking Boipatong, go and fetch your weapons, you were keen in what was happening and you were interested and you were willing to join the attack on Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Why did you want to go on this attack?

MR TSHABANGU: Because I wanted to align myself with the people. We had agreed that we should achieve a particular political goal, the goal of neutralising the ANC and to stop the ANC people from regulating our lives, and to fight for our freedom, to be free to go wherever we want to go in the Vaal region, and that's why I went to the people.

MR BERGER: Who was the target in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I would say the majority of the people, or the community of Boipatong who were supporting the ANC.

MR BERGER: But you knew that there were ANC supporters, PAC supporters, IFP supporters, all living in Boipatong. How did you identify the ANC supporters?

MR TSHABANGU: On the 17th of June it never came to my mind that there are IFP members at Boipatong, I was under the understanding that since they were attacked and chased out of the township, they might have ran to other places. Therefore I was convinced that it's only the ANC which is staying at Boipatong, and the other people who were not ANC members, for example the PAC people, I think they work together with the ANC.

MR BERGER: You told the Committee yesterday, and I won't take it further than that, that you were aware at the time of the attack that there were ANC, PAC, IFP, living in Boipatong. Do you dispute that now?

MR TSHABANGU: I never said on the 17th.

MR BERGER: Is it not correct that at the time of the attack your grandmother lived in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes she stayed at Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Your girlfriend and your child lived in Boipatong at the time of the attack, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes but in Sondela, not in Surela where the incident took place.

CHAIRPERSON: Now who stayed in Sondela?

MR TSHABANGU: My girlfriend and my child.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) grandmother.

MR TSHABANGU: She was staying at Majola.

MS SIGODI: Sorry, and what happened to your grandmother, was she also attacked?

MR TSHABANGU: She wasn't attacked.

MS SIGODI: Do you know why?

MR TSHABANGU: ...(no English translation)

MS SIGODI: Was she in Boipatong on that day?

MR TSHABANGU: I'm not sure.

MS SIGODI: Did you discuss this incident with her afterwards?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct that Majola Street is in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Isn't it also correct that at the time of the attack you had friends living in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Were any of them injured or killed during the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: I'm not sure.

MR BERGER: You had absolutely no problems with being part of that attack on Boipatong, correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Let me read to you Mr Tshabangu what you say at page 178 of your affidavit. In the middle of the page you say

" Op die aand van die 17 Junie 1992 het ek saamgegaan na Boipatong. Ek het 'n kierrie gehad. Ek wou eintlik nie saamgegaan het nie aangesien ek te veel mense in die woongebied geken het. Ek het egter nie veel van 'n keuse gehad nie aangesien ek as 'n verraaier beskou sou word indien ek sou agterbly."

Where's the truth Mr Tshabangu?

MR TSHABANGU: The truth is that's what came to my mind first that I mustn't go there. I ended up going to Boipatong. I also didn't wish to enter any of the houses because I was known in the area, but I ended up entering some of the houses.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what counsel wants you to explain is that you've just told us that you were willing and eager to take part in the massacre, and you were one of the persons as I understand your evidence, who had complained about the circumstances under which you were living in at the hostel. But what you are saying at page 178 is that you did not want to go there because you knew too many people.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes I said that Sir. I knew that people know me in the area, therefore I shouldn't go. But if I were not to go people who were inmates of the hostel might take me otherwise because I was staying at the hostel. One thing is that I was also angry because of the things that the people of Boipatong did to me.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu who forced you to go to Boipatong, and who would have regarded you as a traitor if you didn't go to Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I would say personally nobody forced me to go to Boipatong, however the people who were staying with me will have considered the act of me not being present, showing that I'm a traitor. I'm referring to the inmates in kwaMadala Hostel, that's how they are going to perceive me.

MR BERGER: Not the men from Umsinge in particular Mr Tshabangu?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: You see what I want to put to you is that this was an attack not on the ANC, but on all the residents of Boipatong, and that's effectively what you are saying here when you say "I didn't want to go on the attack because I knew too many people in the area", not that they would recognise you, but there were too many people who might get caught up in this attack, and you didn't want to be part of that. Isn't that right?

MR TSHABANGU: No. I would say the truth is, the attack was directed to the whole community of Boipatong together with my relatives, my grandmother, and whoever stays there. Briefly I can explain in this way during that time exactly the way I felt, I had convinced myself that even if my grandmother was attacked or a friend, that wouldn't matter because during this period one didn't exactly have relatives, there were no relations because your relatives could be used as traps or someone who can sell you out to be killed or burned. Each and every individual at Boipatong couldn't be trusted by myself.

MR BERGER: Were there any other instructions given to you at the stadium or on the way to Boipatong or in Boipatong, as to how the attack should be carried out?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember such.

MR BERGER: Were you not afraid when you left kwaMadala on your way to Boipatong that you would be spotted by the police or the Army, or the ISCOR security?

MR TSHABANGU: I was afraid.

MR BERGER: And what assurances were you given that you need not worry about the police because they were going to assist in the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: No assurances were given to that respect.

MR BERGER: And yet as a policeman with some experience in the Force, you were part of a group - you were willing, according to you, part of a group of men armed with dangerous weapons proceeding on a night with a full moon, with lights along the road, and you weren't picked up by the police. You didn't find this strange at all?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: I'm just going to put it to you as a fact, that the police were involved in the attack on Boipatong; that the police vehicles were in Boipatong at the time of the attack; and that white men who could have been policemen, wearing balaclavas were also involved in carrying out the attack.

MR TSHABANGU: The fact is, the IFP branch which is in kwaMadala were not working in coalition with the police. In the very same night I was never in the company of police, I didn't see police while we were attacking the place, nor were we helped with the police when we entered or were leaving the place. Therefore I don't know anything about the involvement of police or white people. I have no reason why I should protect the police here. I have no single intention or reason to protect them.

MR BERGER: Do you know a Sergeant Peens of the SAP?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: He was active in the Vaal during this period, 1990 to 1992, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Before I can answer, when you say he was active, are you referring to the police work or politics?

Please explain the question to me.

MR BERGER: Well let me ask you this them Mr Tshabangu, in what branch of the police was Sergeant Peens?

MR TSHABANGU: If I'm not mistaken he was in the Murder and Robbery Unit.

MR BERGER: Would that be Murder and Robbery, Vereeniging?

MR TSHABANGU: Vanderbijl, I would say Flora Garden.

MR BERGER: Did you know a policeman by the name of Shaga?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Where was he working at the time, 1992, June?

MR TSHABANGU: I think he was still at Municipality Police. I don't know exactly where he was working at the time.

MR BERGER: Do you know where he is now?

MR TSHABANGU: I normally see him around Vaal, I'm not sure whether he stays at Sebokeng or Boipatong, but I usually see him.

MR BERGER: What are his full names?

MR TSHABANGU: I know him as Tickie Shaga.

MR BERGER: Did you know a policeman, a white policeman who was called Rooikop, he had red hair?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Can you tell the Committee what his full names are and where he was working in June 1992?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know his full names. I think he was also in the Murder and Robbery Unit, subject to correction.

MR BERGER: Was he working together with Sergeant Peens at Murder and Robbery, Vanderbijl?

MR TSHABANGU: That's what I know.

MR BERGER: Who is Gatcheni?

MR TSHABANGU: I know Gatcheni as Ndlovu, he is Ndlovu.

MR BERGER: What are his full names and where was he in June of 1992?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know his full names? We used to call him Makeke, if you are referring to the Mr Ndlovu that I know. On the 17th of June I don't remember whether I did see him or whether he was present or not, I don't know.

MR BERGER: But this Mr Ndlovu, was he a hostel resident?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And what was his first name?

MR TSHABANGU: I repeat, I don't know his full names. We used to call him Makeke.

MR BERGER: And this is the same person who was known as Gatcheni?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: You also heard yesterday, and I'll try and make this short, I read from certain affidavits, and in particular the affidavit of a man who was a security guard at Metalbox, who said that he saw an army vehicle coming from the direction of where Cape Gate and Slovo Park is, coming towards the direction of Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, and he saw that vehicle before he heard any shots being fired in Boipatong. I want to ask you the question Mr Tshabangu, whether it's your evidence that there were no SADF vehicles in the vicinity of Boipatong, very close vicinity of Boipatong at the time of the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: Soldiers or I should say the soldiers' vehicles, with reference to this photograph - aerial photograph, I don't know whether it's the "M" one, I don't know whether point "H" is Frikkie Meyer, when we were getting out of Boipatong we just crossed a bridge. The vehicle was standing on the road as we were coming closer after crossing the bridge. It proceeded and stopped at a Trek Garage, that's where I saw the soldiers' vehicle.

MR BERGER: That was when you were coming out of Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: So your evidence is that there were no Army vehicles or police vehicles inside Boipatong at the time of the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: I'm sorry Mr Tshabangu, that means you're saying they were not in Boipatong at the time of the attack, am I right?

MR TSHABANGU: I'm saying when we left kwaMadala, entered Boipatong - went to Boipatong and getting out of Boipatong, I was never in the company of police or soldiers. I first saw soldiers when we were getting out of Boipatong, they were standing on point "H" of the aerial photograph, which is the N1 I think. That's my evidence.

MR BERGER: You testified yesterday that you only attacked one person and caused damage to one house during the time that you were in Boipatong, is that right?

MR TSHABANGU: I said I did attack one person with a stick, I did destroy some goods. I only entered one house and destroyed goods inside. That's what I said yesterday.

MR BERGER: The house that you went into, that was the only house that you went into, and the only house that you caused damage to, am I right?

MR TSHABANGU: The house that I entered, it's not the only house where I destroyed goods. I did a lot of damage in many houses, breaking windows and any other goods which I found outside. However, this is the only house that I entered, the house I'm referring to.

MR BERGER: Where was that house?

MR TSHABANGU: I won't be able to precisely say where it was, but I will say it's towards the end when we were getting out, on the last streets which exits the area. I entered the house when we were about to leave.

MR BERGER: You see Mr Tshabangu, I find it strange that you can't be more precise than that for someone who spent so much time in Boipatong, you would surely know the one house that you entered and caused so much damage to.

MR TSHABANGU: Sir, I don't remember. This happened about 6 years ago.

MR BERGER: Were there any people in the house when you entered?

MR TSHABANGU: I didn't see people.

MR BERGER: At the stadium you wanted an AK47, and you landed up with a stick. I take it you were very keen to kill as many people as possible in Boipatong that night? If I'm correct, I put it to you that it's difficult to believe that you only attacked one person.

MR TSHABANGU: It is true that I was prepared to kill as many people as possible with an AK47. I ended up with a stick, and my wishes were diminished or couldn't be fulfilled. And even this person, I didn't go straight to him, he was someone who was running away.

MR BERGER: Why didn't you go in search of other people to kill, why didn't you go into other houses and see if there were people hiding there?

MR TSHABANGU: The weapon I was armed with discouraged me from behaving with the full anger that I had, because it was not an effective weapon which I could use to kill someone.

MR BERGER: You tried to kill one person with this stick and you told the Committee yesterday if I'm correct, that this was the kind of stick that could kill people.

MR TSHABANGU: I hit him very hard with the intention that he should be seriously injured. Yes, it was a weapon which was capable of killing him. When I say it wasn't just a small stick which you can see outside, I mean it was not a soft, it was a very hard stick, that's what I was trying to explain.

MR BERGER: I understand that, it was a stick capable of killing people. My question to you is, why didn't you go into other houses to see if there were people there that you could kill?

MR TSHABANGU: It was because they knew me and because of the weapon I was armed with. Therefore, and also during their trial, most people from Boipatong came to evidence never stated that they did see me, because I was moving outside of the houses trying to hide myself. However if I was armed, maybe I could have fired outside through the windows.

MR BERGER: But the fact remains, even on your own evidence, that you did go into a house. Now you didn't know whose house that was, you didn't know if there were people in the house, and you didn't know if they'd be able to identify you. You did it on that occasion, why didn't you do it on others?

MR TSHABANGU: I did that. When we were getting out I realised I didn't do anything, and I tried to get something that I could do.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger have you finished this point?

MR BERGER: I have yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand from your - the turn of your evidence that you wanted to obtain if you could, an AK47, and that's a lethal weapon. That seems to suggest to us that you wanted to cause maximum damage to human lives.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You had a stick, you only hit one person with that stick during the entire duration of the attack.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What is it that prevented you from using that stick on more that one individual?

MR TSHABANGU: I was avoiding from entering houses. The person whom I hit was someone who was being followed by others along the streets, so he came past me as he was running towards us, we stopped him and I hit him.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from this individual who ran towards you, throughout your remaining in Boipatong, no other individual ran in your direction?

MR TSHABANGU: No Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Not a child?

MR TSHABANGU: No Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Not a woman?

MR TSHABANGU: No Sir.

MR BERGER: You see Mr Tshabangu I'm putting to you that once again you are being very spare with the truth and you are deliberately underplaying your role in the killings in Boipatong that night.

MR TSHABANGU: That is untrue Sir. I associate myself with all the acts as if it's something that I did, because I did associate myself with the people who were committing these acts.

MR BERGER: You saw a lot of people carrying possessions out of Boipatong, am I right?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Do you know why this was done?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know. If I was the one who took the goods maybe I will have an answer today. I won't be able to answer because I never took anything from Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Did you not ask your comrades "what are you doing, why are you taking the stuff, why are you plundering", didn't you ask them?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: Is it because it was not strange to you, you expected your comrades to plunder Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: No. It was not a strange thing because this is what normally happens in a township, if people come to burn your house, they will take anything which they can lay their hands on. If you have a shop, they go in and take your Chappies.

MR BERGER: I don't want to trivialise it so I won't go down that road, but you know that all the goods were burned. What I want to ask you is, is it correct that these goods were burned at a time when the police were surrounding the hostel?

MR TSHABANGU: I won't be able to comment as to whether they were surrounding the hostel or not, but the goods were burned in the hostel.

MR BERGER: On the day following the massacre?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And the police were present at the hostel that day, correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes in the evening they were present. The things were burned in the morning if I remember well.

MR BERGER: Is it you evidence that the police did not seal the hostel very soon after the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: My evidence is that police sealed the hostel on the 18th in the evening, and the things or goods were burned at about 9, 10 or 11 - it might be earlier or before that.

MR BERGER: You saw the goods being burned, and yet you say that you have no knowledge who gave the order to burn the goods?

MR TSHABANGU: I said I don't remember who gave the instruction.

MR BERGER: How is it that you remember who gave the instruction to attack Boipatong? You remember things that happened before the attack, but you cannot remember who gave the instruction to burn the goods?

MR TSHABANGU: It is because this person who gave the instruction that Boipatong should be attacked, it wasn't the first time he gave such instructions. He used to give other instructions, like we should be prepared, that was Damarra and Mkhize. This was repeated for about two times, but I can't remember exactly who gave instruction that things must be burned.

MR BERGER: As far as people who you have identified you either shot or were near you during the attack, I want to put it to you that it's - again you're not being full and frank because the people you name are either dead or co-applicants.

MR TSHABANGU: I would say Bongo was there, Sapila. Kleintjie was present, he's still alive. Moosa Dlamini, he was there, he's still alive. And someone by the surname of Mujene was present, he's still alive. Mantjebene, he passed away, he was present. Nyembo was present - I don't know whether he's still alive or not because I don't see him anymore. Gobe was there, Bujose was there. I don't know why you think I'm hiding something.

MR BERGER: Because when you were asked this question when you gave your evidence yesterday, you didn't mention any of these names.

MR STRYDOM: I specifically remember the names Gobe and Bujose being mentioned.

MR BERGER: Not by this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: I do recall that Gobe was mentioned, but I - let me just check. Would that have been in his evidence in chief Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson in the light of the fact that more that one witness testified, I lead the witness, I didn't take notes. I must align my memory, I may be wrong. I would seek some guidance from Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well a number of names were mentioned by ...

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson I will withdraw my objection because my learned friend here has got notes, and those name do no appear there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: In fact my learned friend I think is thinking of the evidence of Mr Khanyile.

CHAIRPERSON: And did we not in that regard also issue a direction that we should be notified?

MR PRIOR: That was ANC people.

MR BERGER: No Chairperson it wasn't those people, it was the member of the South African National Defence Force and others who were mentioned by this witness. It was Nonusa, and Mabone.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr he's withdrawing that, so the question stands.

MR TSHABANGU: What's important to me is that I'm mentioning these names in front of the Committee and the people, and most of them are still alive and they are not the applicants. I didn't remember them yesterday, but I remember them today and I'm revealing them.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu you heard yesterday it was said that there were 11 women in Boipatong who were either raped or sexually assaulted during this attack. What is your comment on that?

MR TSHABANGU: My comment is the raping of women during war or in a time of peace, it's not acceptable in a community and we should try by all means that something is done about it. Secondly I would like to mention that the two sides are responsible of the outcome of the incidents because such things should not have happened. I will refer you to one lady by the name of Masabata from Sharpeville who was seriously or extensively raped, her muscles cut, a bottle inserted in her vagina - only because she was an IFP member. This is a very bad habit and I don't condone it, I mean the raping of women.

MR BERGER: Are you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What is the answer then to the question that Mr Burger is putting?

MR TSHABANGU: The people who did that, I would say I personally it was a very bad thing. Even if the situation of war where we're fighting, I don't believe that it's a proper thing to do if you are fighting and you as an individual have the power to go around and rape women.

MS SIGODI: Mr Tshabangu I think what we'd like to know is, do you know - did you see it happening, or did you not see it happening?

MR TSHABANGU: I never see it.

MR BERGER: Did you not hear the day after or the days following the attack, some of your comrades bragging about what they had done to the women of Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: Are you saying that you were not party to any discussion, you did not overhear any discussion where the rapes and sexual attacks on women of Boipatong was even mentioned?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Are you also saying that those people who carried out these rapes and sexual attacks were acting in revenge for similar attacks on women who were IFP members?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cambanis?

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Mr Chair. Sir I do not have any questions, but I would like - it's been brought to my attention that the question of rape and sexual was not put to the first applicant Mr Victor Mthembu. The reason for that is that these facts were only brought to our attention after the first hearing. On the 25 of July Ms Nomsa Mgele and myself consulted with a woman in the community and took instructions on this point, and it was only at that time that we got instructions in regard to these facts. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson, just a few questions.

Mr Tshabangu you heard Mr Khanyile testify that the splitting into two by the group that left kwaMadala Hostel was spontaneous and it happened when the group was chasing the SDU members who ran into two different directions. And your evidence is that the splitting into two groups took place before you entered Boipatong when you stopped at that tree marked "K" on Exhibit M1, is that so?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes that's correct.

MR MALINDI: Is Mr Khanyile wrong in this respect?

MR TSHABANGU: I explained that we tried to divide in two groups but we ended up proceeding towards the same direction on Mshweshwe Street. So maybe in that way Khanyile is correct.

MR MALINDI: Mr Tshabangu you could not be right because you say specifically that at the tree you stopped, broke into two groups, which even though walked along Mshweshwe but were distinct groups.

MR TSHABANGU: I was answering with reference to direction. You said others went through Legwa and others proceeded down on Mshweshwe Street.

MR MALINDI: And then you testified further that once your group had followed - started following the Legwa route you split into further smaller groups, is that so?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR MALINDI: Do you know who gave orders for the splitting into these further smaller groups?

MR TSHABANGU: No, what happened is, when we entered along Legwa, it's when we were following these people running away, and people started running into different directions. That's what I was trying to explain Sir.

MR MALINDI: Were these smaller groups distinguishable groups, or were they sort of haphazard groups?

MR TSHABANGU: Sir I would say there were two entities as groups, or I would say we were distinguishable because we were wearing red bands - white bands.

MR MALINDI: Mr Tshabangu what I would like to suggest to you, is that the deliberate splitting under that tree marked "K" on Exhibit M1 and the further splitting into smaller groups once your group had entered Legwa Street, suggests some form of detailed planning of this attack.

MR TSHABANGU: I don't think so.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Tshabangu the house that you entered and damaged property, where were the occupants of that house at that time?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know, there was nobody inside when I arrived, but it was clear that people had been in the house because goods were destroyed and the curtains were not in order.

MR PRIOR: Given your evidence that you wanted to kill as many people as possible, what was stopping you entering more houses than the one you entered?

MR TSHABANGU: I was discouraged by the weapon that I had because I couldn't use it quickly and effectively, the way I wanted to.

MR PRIOR: Was that the only reason why you never entered more homes?

MR TSHABANGU: And also because I could be identified in some of the houses.

MR PRIOR: I don't understand because your intention was to kill those people, so whether they identified you or not, you were going to kill them. What difference did it make?

MR TSHABANGU: I knew that with a stick I couldn't effectively hit some and kill, but with a firearm I can shoot a particular area and be sure that the person is dead.

MR PRIOR: Just to turn to the AK47's. At the stadium they were laid out and people were asked who wanted to use them, and they could select and take them. Is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Was there any control that qualified persons, in other words persons who knew how to handle those firearms, in fact took the AK47's, and not people who had no experience with weapons?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know because when I came back from fetching my stick, I found that all the firearms were already taken away. Whether the people were able to use them or not I can't comment.

MR PRIOR: At the time, we have got information, that the Vaal Commando was doing a two month camp in the area Vanderbijl, and I'm not talking about the 17th of June, the night of the massacre, but before - a week, two weeks. Was it the custom of the Commando to patrol the streets of Vanderbijlpark inclusive of Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes I used to see them Sir.

MR PRIOR: And they would go into Boipatong patrolling up and down the streets that we've seen on the sketch and of the township Exhibit J?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes they also patrolled Boipatong.

MR PRIOR: There's just two last aspects, the one deals with the destroyed property. You said in your evidence earlier that Themba Xhosa arrived - was it the next day, the 18th of June, with a high ranking policeman and he asked or addressed the residents saying that you should all assist the police in their investigations, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR PRIOR: How was the burning of the property that linked the residents of kwaMadala to the Boipatong attack, how did that burning assist the police?

MR TSHABANGU: With respect may you please repeat your question.

MR PRIOR: How did the burning of the property of the people of Boipatong, the TV's, the heaters, the radio's, the clothing, whatever, the destruction of that property, how did that assist the police with their investigation?

MR TSHABANGU: It didn't help them.

MR PRIOR: Was the intention to destroy evidence linking the residents of kwaMadala to the Boipatong attack, was that the intention of the burning of the property, instead of handing it over to the police?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know Sir.

MR PRIOR: Did you as a policeman at that stage, ask anybody why this property was being destroyed?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR PRIOR: And finally, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: If the people wanted to destroy these items, they would have destroyed them in Boipatong, there would have been no need for them to bring them the hostel and destroy them in the hostel. Were you present when these items were destroyed?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you find out from the people why are these things being destroyed, or did someone say why these things are being destroyed?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes it was said that is to make sure that the police when they arrived, they can't see these things. People were talking around the fire.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have one final aspect. You seem from your reply in respect of the allegation of women being raped, your evidence seems to suggest that you have respect for the dignity of women. It's seems to be the case.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, but together with maids and children.

MR PRIOR: I don't understand that part, but be that as it may, just explain to me what - how it differs when elderly women in their 60's, 70's and 80's are killed in a shocking way? How does that sit easier with you than the rape of a woman, just explain that to the Committee.

MR TSHABANGU: Sir, I would say I as an individual or person, rape and murder are not acceptable things. It doesn't treat me well if when we're in a battle, you fighting, someone is raping other people. However, if elderly women are proof that should the burning of people by their children, I think they should also suffer the consequences.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

MS PRETORIUS: I have no questions thank you Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Mr Chairman ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr - are you going to be fairly, I think we have just ...(inaudible)

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairperson, approximately 10 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: At this stage we'll take the lunch adjournment and come back at 14h20.

HEARING ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DA SILVA: ...(inaudible) you referred to the aerial photograph, will you please look at Exhibit M1. Is that the aerial photograph you were referring to?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Now I don't know if you understand the photograph properly, but if you look on the left-hand side just above the letter "D" you will see a road starts there, and that road goes across the photograph right to the right-hand side to the letter "M". Do you see that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes I do see that.

MR DA SILVA: That is Frikkie Meyer Boulevard. Now if you look at letter "K", that points out a tree, do you see that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes Sir. Now Mr Khanyile's evidence yesterday was that on the way back from Boipatong the group gathered at the tree, then the group crossed at the pedestrian bridge marked "H", and during this process some vehicles that they saw retreated to a Trek Garage which was marked with the letter "C". Do you understand that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

MR DA SILVA: Do you agree with this evidence, is this what happened?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: So in other words when the soldiers saw the group, the retreated to the Trek Garage at point "C"?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Now under cross-examination from Mr Berger, you said that you saw the soldiers at point "H", at the pedestrian bridge, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes it was on the same street where I saw police, or should I say Army vehicles.

MR DA SILVA: What you saw was vehicles, is that correct? Could you tell if it was police or Army vehicles?

MR TSHABANGU: I saw an Army buffalo.

MR DA SILVA: So you saw one Army buffalo. Now the point that I'm trying to make is that in an answer to Mr Berger's cross-examination you said you saw them at point "H", is that correct, or did you see them retreating to point "C", the Trek Garage?

MR TSHABANGU: I saw them on the same route towards the Trek Garage, that is point "C".

MR DA SILVA: Now yesterday you also said Mr Tshabangu, that when the group entered into Boipatong, that the group were walking next to the Serela Combined High School, and that next - or the fence demarcating this school was barricaded with razor wire, do you recall that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

MR DA SILVA: Do you recall seeing other portions of Boipatong which had been barricaded with razor wire?

MR TSHABANGU: No I do not remember Sir.

MR DA SILVA: Did you get the impression that the razor wire was there to protect the school or was it to protect Boipatong, or can't you say?

MR TSHABANGU: I was under the impression that the razor wire was meant to protect Boipatong.

MR DA SILVA: Do you out of your own knowledge know who put up the razor wire to protect Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: No Sir.

MR DA SILVA: You also said yesterday that on entering Mosheshwe Street there were obstacles at the entrance of the street. Could you describe these obstacles?

MR TSHABANGU: It was wire and trees.

MR DA SILVA: When you're talking about trees, do you mean tree-stumps? Tree-stumps were put across the roads, is that right?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

MR DA SILVA: And you said you saw this on several portions in the streets in Boipatong, that tree-trunks were put across the road?

MR TSHABANGU: I cannot say for sure that I saw these in all the areas, but it might as well have happened the same way, but I'm not sure. There were barricades - streets were barricaded.

MR DA SILVA: By whom were these streets barricaded, do you know?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know the names but I think it may have been the members of the SDU, Self-Defence Units, those are the ones who were patrolling the streets at night.

MR DA SILVA: In other words SDU's and possibly residents of Boipatong, do you agree with that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

MR BERGER: Chairperson that wasn't what the witness said at all and - well let me just leave it at that, that's not what the witness said.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairperson I put the question to the witness and I asked him if he agreed with it, and that was his answer, he agreed with that. If necessary I can put the question again.

Mr Tshabangu do you know - you said that the SDU's, as far as you are aware, put up these tree-stumps. Do you know if any of the residents of Boipatong were involved in this?

MR TSHABANGU: I said I think it may have been the SDU's.

MR DA SILVA: And would you agree with me that the purpose of these barricades was to stop vehicular traffic from going into Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

MR DA SILVA: While you were suspended at this stage during the attack, you were suspended from the police, did you still have contact with your colleagues that were still in the Police Force? Did you still speak to members that were actually doing active duty in the Police Force?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

MR DA SILVA: Do you know if the police could have free entry into Boipatong, could they come and go like they wanted to?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know Sir.

MR DA SILVA: Yesterday you also testified with reference to a person called Nonusa, do you recall that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Is Nonusa a Christian name, surname or nick-name?

MR TSHABANGU: It's a nick-name.

MR DA SILVA: Do you know what Nonusa's real names are?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know, I think the surname might be Madula if I'm not mistaken.

MR DA SILVA: Could you please repeat the surname again?

MR TSHABANGU: Maduna.

MR DA SILVA: And you say this person, as far as you are aware, was a member of the Defence Force during 1997, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: That is correct.

MR DA SILVA: Do you know when he became a member of the Defence Force?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR DA SILVA: When was your father injured?

MR TSHABANGU: He was injured between 1991 and 1992, but I'm not sure.

MR DA SILVA: I have no further questions Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Strydom?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Mention was made of a name Victor Gerswa, alias Getisi, what happened to him?

MR TSHABANGU: I was told he died at the hands of the police.

MR STRYDOM: Were you also told if Sergeant Peens was involved?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Sergeant who?

MR STRYDOM: Peens.

Daniel Mabote was a co-accused with you in the criminal trial, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: And did he die during the course of the criminal trial?

MR TSHABANGU: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Did he die in police custody?

MR TSHABANGU: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Have you heard if Sergeant Peens was involved in his death?

MR TSHABANGU: No Sir.

MR STRYDOM: Now during the night of the attack, were the majority of the people of Boipatong in their houses, either asleep or doing with whatever they were busy, in the houses?

MR TSHABANGU: They were in their houses Sir.

MR STRYDOM: As you moved around through the township that specific night of the attack, did you find many people outside in the streets, or on the streets?

MR TSHABANGU: No Sir.

MR STRYDOM: At the beginning of your evidence you testified that you are actually a Shangaan person. Do you know all the customs and traditions of the Zulu nation?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR STRYDOM: Andries Nosenga, do you know him?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

MR STRYDOM: Was he a resident in the hostel during 1992?

MR TSHABANGU: I do not remember.

MR STRYDOM: During the night of the attack, did you see him?

MR TSHABANGU: No Sir.

MR STRYDOM: You testified that or you mentioned the name Sondela. Which part of Boipatong is Sondela?

MR TSHABANGU: That's the lower part of Boipatong, or southern part of Boipatong that is separated by approximately 200 metres from Surela.

MR LAX: Sorry if I could just come in, maybe you could look at Annexure "J" for us, and just - have you got it there in front of you now?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes I have it.

MR LAX: Just say on there what streets from that Annexure "J", you can see all the street names there, which streets encircle Sondela?

MR TSHABANGU: It doesn't appear there.

MR LAX: Thanks. So is it in fact off Annexure "J"?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR LAX: Does it appear on any of the photographs?

MR TSHABANGU: If I'm not mistaken I think it does appear slightly.

MR SIBANYONI: What annexure is that?

MR STRYDOM: The witness has pointed to photograph MM1.

MR LAX: If it appears on M1, then which - whereabout on M1, if you can just say in relation to the letters "JK" or "LM", or "FGH".

MR TSHABANGU: It's right across J from "J" downwards.

MR LAX: So that's the - what appears to be a built-up area going around about "J". There's some trees, and then you say it moves down?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR STRYDOM: Would I be correct in saying that Sondela is a separate township from the Surela part of Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: The Sondela part of Boipatong ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute, could you just lift up the annexure that we - the exhibit that we're looking at. Okay, and where is Sondela there?

MR STRYDOM: When Mkhize said that, and the word that was used, Boipatong should be attacked on the 17th of June 1992, did he use the word "Boipatong" or "Surela"?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember well.

MR STRYDOM: As far as you were concerned at that stage, which political party did the majority of the people of Boipatong support?

MR TSHABANGU: African National Congress.

MR STRYDOM: The Self-Defence Units, to which political party were they aligned to?

MR TSHABANGU: ANC as well.

MR STRYDOM: I've got no further questions thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: I just want just clarify this, did I hear you correctly that the only time you saw this Defence Force vehicle, what you referred to as a "buffel", was when you were on the foot-bridge coming back?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR LAX: How far from you was the vehicle at that stage?

MR TSHABANGU: This is an estimation, maybe from where I am right to the gate, the entrance of this hall, or of this place.

MR LAX: It's about 200-odd metres, maybe ±.

MR STRYDOM: I agree with that, 200 to 300 metres.

MR LAX: And then from that point, to use your words ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The estimate is that it's approximately 200 to 300 metres?

MR LAX: Yes, between that.

MR BERGER: I would have thought that it is closer to two hundred but, I don't want to quibble.

MR LAX: From that point it then retreated, to use your words, to the Trek Garage?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR LAX: And it parked there, that's the impression I get from what you've said?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes it parked there.

MR LAX: Were there other vehicles at the garage at that time?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember, I didn't pay attention to that.

MR LAX: And is it correct that that's the only time you saw police or Defence Force during the entire course of - leading up to the attack that night, and after the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Advocate Sigodi?

MS SIGODI: Thank you Chairperson. Just one point which I'd like to clarify, you mentioned that you were staying in the same room with Teresa Mofoking and Timothy Mazibuko.

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MS SIGODI: What was your relationship with Teresa Mofoking?

MR TSHABANGU: She was my girlfriend.

MS SIGODI: And what was the form of the room, was it one big room or did you divide it?

MR TSHABANGU: It was a big room, half of it, it was divided into two.

MS SIGODI: So Timothy would also have his own privacy?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MS SIGODI: What worries me is the fact that you were cross-examined and it came out that Timothy came with a duvet full of blood. What I want to know is, who came first, was it Timothy or was it you, after the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't have any clear recollection in as far as that is concerned, and yet I don't remember seeing him with a bloody duvet. I did see him with a TV set and threw it somewhere just before we crossed coming from Boipatong.

MS SIGODI: You saw him with a TV set before going back into the hostel?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, just before we exited Boipatong.

MS SIGODI: If there was a duvet with a - if he had it, a duvet which was full of blood, would you have seen it, or would it have been possible for him to conceal it?

MR TSHABANGU: It's possible that I wouldn't have seen it. Maybe he could have even concealed it because I wasn't used to go to his room, or to the other part of the room that he occupied.

MS SIGODI: And then about the meeting on the 17th of June when you were called and you were told that you must go and attack Boipatong, were the AK47's there at the stadium when you were called to the meeting?

MR TSHABANGU: Coming back from fetching our weapons I did see the AK47's - coming back the second time now after we fetched our weapons from our rooms.

MS SIGODI: You did see them?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes we did see them.

MS SIGODI: And roughly how many AK47's were there?

MR TSHABANGU: This is a rough estimation, I will say about 4 or 6 upwards, it's possible.

MS SIGODI: But definitely not more than 10?

MR TSHABANGU: I wouldn't say so, there were not too many of them.

MS SIGODI: And were there small guns?

MR TSHABANGU: Some had small guns in their possessions, even at Boipatong.

MS SIGODI: So the AK47's that were available for distribution to the 300 to 400 people, there were only - I mean people had to compete for only 6 AK47's, is that what you're saying?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Tshabangu my questions will be around seeking clarity on your political conviction. You told the Committee that you were a member Xhosa's, and Xhosa's will be more aligned to the ANC, am I correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: And then again people who were victimised in the township, we are told they are Zulus. You were not victimised because of the fact that you are not a Zulu, you are a Shangaan you told us?

MR TSHABANGU: At the time when I was a member of Xhosa's the Zulu-speaking were not yet attacked or being victimised, even IFP. We were just fighting against policemen at the time.

MR SIBANYONI: When you left - when you went to kwaMadala Hostel to see refuge, at that stage you were not yet a member of the IFP?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, my father was at the time a member of the IFP.

MR SIBANYONI: Will I be correct that you left the township for different reasons that political affiliation, or your ethnicity?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR SIBANYONI: What was the reason for you to leave the township?

MR TSHABANGU: As I already explained, that amongst other things I was being blamed for the fact that I had friends who were IFP members, and my father as well was an IFP member. This is why I say these are some reasons that motivated me to leave the location, the township so to speak.

MR SIBANYONI: Last question, what would you say if a person says there is sort a perception that it seems you might have joined Inkatha to use it as a hurdle to get back to the people who were, I will say, having problems with you in the township?

MR TSHABANGU: I will refute all of that, it's not like that.

MR SIBANYONI: In other words you subscribed, you believed the believed the aims and objectives of Inkatha, that's why you joined it?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We've heard that there was a meeting prior to the attack, I think this meeting was probably on the 10th of June 1993, at which the hostel residents were told to prepare for an attack?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell us what preparations were made for the attack?

MR TSHABANGU: What I did myself, I was ready and waiting on him to hear him when he gives us the go-ahead to attack. That is what I understood that message to be.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from being mentally ready for the attack, but if you're going to go in an attack, you do not need your mind only, you need weapons to fight with.

MR TSHABANGU: ...(no English translation)

CHAIRPERSON: You told us, I think you did, that ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, I didn't hear the translation of that last answer, please ...

CHAIRPERSON: Please repeat your answer.

MR TSHABANGU: What I was saying is that I was not aware about the preparations that were in place for the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) certain monies that were being collected for the purposes of purchasing arms?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And I think you went further and said the people who contributed were those who were working, you were working at a tuck-shop I think it was?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, that's what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you make any contribution towards the purchase of those arms?

MR TSHABANGU: No I was taken as a person who was unemployed. The tuck-shop that was in the hostel, I was not even renting or paying any money.

CHAIRPERSON: How long before the attack on Boipatong did this collection of funds for the purchase of arms take place?

MR TSHABANGU: I'm not in a position to say anything, but I will say it was quite some time. I'm not too sure whether to say it was long time, because they used to threaten us that they will come. That's when this whole thing emerged that we have to get ready and we have to collect some money.

CHAIRPERSON: From your own personal knowledge, do you know whether any arms were purchased following the collection of these funds?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Subsequent to the instruction that the residents of the hostel must be - must get ready for an attack, were any funds collected to purchase firearms?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, the collection of money went on.

CHAIRPERSON: So after these instructions funds were collected for the purchase of the arms?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever try to - well, I understand that you were one of the persons who were much more concerned about the conditions under which you were living?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm just trying to find out whether those arms in fact were delivered.

MR TSHABANGU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) moved to the hostel.

MR TSHABANGU: Please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) kwaMadala Hostel.

MR TSHABANGU: In 1991 if I'm not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the year in which you joined the IFP?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything arising from the questions by the Committee?

MR BERGER: No questions Chair.

MR LAX: Sorry, there was just one question that I made a note to ask and I forgot to ask it. There's mention in some of the statements about a white Grenada. Who drove a white Grenada in the hostel that you knew of?

MR TSHABANGU: It was Wolly Bujose.

MR LAX: Wolly Bujose?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR LAX: That vehicle was seen prior to the attack in the vicinity of the hostel with its boot apparently very, very heavily loaded. Did you see it on that day?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember.

MR LAX: Did Bujose have anything to do with the purchase of firearms?

MR TSHABANGU: I never saw him.

MR LAX: And then just one last aspect, what other firearms were available for use besides AK47's on that night in the stadium?

MR TSHABANGU: I only saw the AK's. Inside Boipatong I realised that there were some who had in their possession small guns, but I don't know where they got those from.

MR LAX: So there were no handguns being made available out of some sort of supply?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know much about the small guns, but what I saw were AK's just before we left.

MR LAX: And you never saw any pump-action shotguns?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR LAX: Did you see any home-made firearms there?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR LAX: Thanks very much Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Chairperson ...(intervention)

MR SIBANYONI: Is Isaak Mosobode Bujose the same person as Wolly Bujose?

MR TSHABANGU: The Bujose I'm referring to is the one who was a state witness in Pretoria, that's the one I'm referring to, I'm talking about in other words.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) that you're referring to as Wolly Bujose?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: Chairperson, there's just one question arising from the ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu, you said that when you returned from your room you saw 4, 6, maybe more, but less than 10 AK47's on the ground in the stadium, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Is it possible that there were many more AK47's on the ground in the hostel, other weapons such as shotguns, home-made weapons, on the ground which had been taken by some of the residents before you returned to the stadium?

MR TSHABANGU: I never saw anyone fetching any guns, and I have no knowledge in as far as that is concerned.

MR BERGER: No what I'm asking you, is it possible that before you returned to the stadium, there had been other AK4's and other guns on the ground which had been taken by some of the residents, or are you saying that amongst the 300 or 400 attackers there were only 4 to 6 AK47's and no other guns such as shotguns?

MR TSHABANGU: It's not possible for me to say exactly anything in relation to guns because, but I'm saying that I did see people in Boipatong or towards Boipatong having in their possessions small guns.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Berger wants to find out is that, because according to your evidence you went to fetch your stick, but when you returned to the stadium, there were AK47's, and you could not get one because they got finished. What Mr Berger is trying to find out, is it possible that there were many firearms there, but that by the time you returned there were only these 4 or 6 that were there?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Thank you I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: You mentioned that you grew up in Boipatong, what was your address there, what was your home address?

MR TSHABANGU: 1772 Sabata Street.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Tshabangu, you may return to your seat.

WITNESS EXCUSED