Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning ladies and gentlemen. Are we ready to proceed? Yes. Just before we proceed, is it Adv Botha? Yes.

MR BOTHA: Indeed, Mr Chairperson. Thank you, Mr Chairperson. As we discussed in chambers my instructing attorney as well as my own mandate has been terminated by the State Attorney on behalf of Mr Peens. I request the Commission's permission to withdraw as advocate of record of Mr Peens.

I've tried to get hold of Mr Peens. As yet I was not successful. I'm still trying to get hold of him as well as my instructing attorney. The last known address that we have of him is the farm Leewfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just hold on a second. What was that address?

MR BOTHA: The address, Mr Chairperson, is the farm Leewfontein, L-E-E-W-fontein in the district of Ventersdorp. He used to stay with his parents there. We managed to get information that this farm was sold and they're staying somewhere in Potchefstroom now. I also received information that there's a possibility that he may work in Pretoria at a security firm.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the upshot of this that you've not been able to contact Mr Peens and to notify him that you're withdrawing as his legal representative?

MR BOTHA: Indeed Mr Chairperson. At this stage although my mandate has been terminated by the State Attorney I don't know what Mr Peens' attitude will be. I don't think he will be in a financial position to afford the legal fees for this whole proceedings further on, but I am prepared however, if I receive instructions from him and if the Commission make a ruling that he must testify, that I may assist him. I'm even prepared that if it's a day or even two days to prepare on his behalf pro amico.

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose ...(indistinct) Yes, Mr Botha, you are excused from further attendance.

MR BOTHA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr May.

MR MEY: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I'm in exactly the same position. I'm acting on behalf of the implicated persons Messrs Chaka and Greeff. My mandate has been terminated by the State Attorney and I'm not in the position to proceed. Therefore I request permission from the Commission to withdraw as attorney of record on behalf of the two implicated persons. They know that I'm going to withdraw as attorney of record and they've been accordingly informed. Mr Chaka and Mr Greeff.

CHAIRPERSON: You have told them, have you?

MR MEY: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether they are here?

MR MEY: They are present. Mr Chairperson, they're in the media room at this stage, both of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is the media room?

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CHAIRPERSON: Mr Chaka - are you Mr Chaka? Okay. Would you just speak next to the microphone, please. Are you Mr Chaka?

MR CHAKA: ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: You're Mr Greeff.

MR GREEFF: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: It is my understanding that both of you have been advised by Mr May that he will no longer be able to represent you in these proceedings because the State Attorney has withdrawn the mandate. Is that right?

MR CHAKA: That is correct, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: "Mnr" Greeff.

MR GREEFF: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position now that you are without legal representation?

MR CHAKA: That is correct.

MR GREEFF: That is right.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you be representing yourself?

MR CHAKA: That is correct.

MR GREEFF: Yes, I will.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. Thank you, Mr May. You are excused. Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Excuse me, Chairperson, before Mr Botha ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I beg your pardon. Would you just call Mr Chaka and Mr Greeff here. If during these proceedings there is anything that you'd like to draw to the attention of the Committee, would you do so?

MR CHAKA: I will do so, Sir.

MR GREEFF: Yes, I will.

CHAIRPERSON: If amongst the witnesses who are yet to testify, anyone of them implicates either of you, you will be afforded the opportunity to dispute that evidence by way of cross-examination. Do you understand that?

MR CHAKA: I understand.

MR GREEFF: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Just listen to the evidence very carefully. Do you understand?

MR CHAKA: Yes.

MR GREEFF: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mapoma, I wanted to...

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson. About Mr Peens. I understand Mr Botha was instructed by Mr Du Plessis who is an attorney and unfortunately Mr Botha seems to have left now, but the Committee has not been brought to light as to the situation regarding Mr Du Plessis's instructions for Mr Botha.

CHAIRPERSON: My understanding from Mr Botha is that both of them were instructed by the State Attorney and that the State Attorney has withdrawn the mandate from both of them.

MR MAPOMA: As the Chairperson pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that right, Mr Botha?

MR BOTHA: Indeed, Mr Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, before Mr Botha leaves. Might I just place this on record.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: It is the intention of the victims at the end of their case to formally ask the Committee to rule that Mr Peens be called to give evidence. There's - we will argue why we believe his evidence is crucial to this application. At the moment Mr Peens is under subpoena and in terms of section 39(e) of the Act any person who fails to - having been subpoenaed who fails to appear or fails to remain in attendance until the end of the hearing has committed an offence.

I don't know if it's premature to ask now that you refer the matter to the police so that Mr - so that the police can arrest Mr Peens for having contravened Section 39(e) of the Act or whether you would want us to wait until the end of the applicants' - of the victims' case. My problem is - or not my problem, my fear is that if we do wait at that stage it will still take some time for the police to locate Mr Peens and perhaps they should start now trying to locate him.

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose that's a matter that the evidence leader would have to consider and if so satisfied, refer the matter to the police because one of the difficulties of these proceedings is that they have been dragging for a long time and I know that some of the applicants have asked that they be excused so that they can pursue their employment. It's not necessary to require everyone to be here. But that's a valid point.

MR BERGER: Chair, what I'll do is I'll ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Would you look into that, Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, I will look into it and in fact liaise with the legal department of the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, indeed. In particular in view of the fact that we're about to finish.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson. Very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. Yes. Let's just dispose of another matter and that is the late filing of the affidavits filed on behalf of the South African Defence - what is it South African National Defence Force, I think it is. The application for the condonation of the late filing of those affidavits. Yes. Will you just place on record the explanation for the delay, Mr Da Silva.

MR DA SILVA: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, you will note in the documents which have been handed to the Committee as well as my learned colleagues, that there is an affidavit made by Mr Kluth who sets out the reasons for the late delivery of these documents.

The first reason which he deals with you'll find at page 7 of his affidavit. It became aware during the investigation of this matter from the Defence Force's point of view that many documents have been either mislaid, lost or destroyed and that they cannot be found.

We could not find any documents in regard to one of the Defence Force components, group 17, which patrolled the area around Vanderbijlpark. And the only other way that we could explain what happened on the 17th of June 1992, was to approach the investigating officer, Mr Davidson.

Mr Davidson at the stage that we spoke to him was no longer in the employ of the Defence - of the Police, he is not a member of the Defence Force and there were certain steps that we had to take to be able to consult with them, to make documents available and to prepare an affidavit which is annexed hereto.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that Mr Christo Davidson?

MR DA SILVA: That is correct, Mr Chairman. Another difficulty which arose, Mr Chairman, is you will recall that when we adjourned on the 21st of April 1999, Mr Burger indicated at the pre-trial conference what his attitude was in regard to further evidence in regard to the Defence Force.

That put us in the precarious position in that we foresaw that the Defence Forces might terminate our mandate and we had to explain what our position was to the Defence Force. I may add, and Mr Burger can correct me, that there is still a legal argument which is going to be advanced on behalf of the victims as I understand implicating the Defence Force.

So the matter is not as cut and dry as what it appears on the face of it. But in order to prepare that memorandum, submit it to the Defence Force and obtain instructions. That also led to a delay of time.

The principle reason, Mr Chairman, which led to this delay of time. You will note that there is a letter which is annexed as Annexure AK2. It's annexed at page 19 of the papers. In terms of that letter my instructing attorney - I apologise. It's at - AK2 is the covering fax and the letter appears on page 20, Mr Chairman.

In terms of that letter our mandate was in fact terminated and we were not in a position to proceed. Instructions had to be obtained to proceed and the complicating factor was that it was not just a decision taken by my client, Mr Chairman.

It wasn't just the mere fact of my client giving me and my instructing attorney instructions to proceed. There had to be some co-ordination with the State Attorney and the Department of Justice. We in fact only received firm instructions to proceed on behalf of the Defence Force from the Defence Force last Monday, the 12th of June.

And in fact received instructions from the State Attorney on the 15th of June. Both these instructions were oral instructions and at - to date hereof we haven't received written instructions and we could only in fact really start preparing from last Monday.

The Committee will note that documents are voluminous. They attempt to cover a wide spectrum of evidence. We've tried to make them as short as possible and we worked full out, apart from the pre-trial conference which took place from Wednesday. The whole of Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday and in fact these documents were only finalised this morning at two o'clock.

And this is what has led to the delay and I would request in the circumstances that you condone the late filing of these papers, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, do you have any difficulty with the application for the condonation of the late filing of these documents?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, as a matter of principle we don't have any problems. We haven't read the documents, I don't know what it contains, but in principle we have no objection.

CHAIRPERSON: My understanding was that the victims' position is that they will not be contending that they were members of the South African Defence Force. Is that right?

MR BERGER: Well, Chairperson, the victims have said throughout that they don't know whether the whites who were there were members of the police or members of the SADF. They don't know whether the vehicles that were there were police vehicles or army vehicles. At best we would contend for the SANDF, they were outside Boipatong. As those earlier affidavits that we handed in show they were in the road where the firms are and that they heard shooting or shots being fired and that they never intervened. That would be the best for them. But we can't say whether the ...

CHAIRPERSON: They were inside.

MR BERGER: .. whether they were inside or not.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time, ja.

MR BERGER: But we can't exclude that either because there were - we say, military vehicles or police vehicles. We don't distinguish between the two.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Mapoma, do you have any difficulty?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, I have no difficulty with ...(indistinct) Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: The other applicants, do you have any difficulty with the application for the condonation of the late filing of these affidavits?

MR CAMBANIS: None, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, the...

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I should also place on record in fairness to Mr Da Silva and Mr Kluth, that at the pre-trial conference last week Wednesday we were handed a tog bag full of documents which is very difficult to go through, but they did provide us with documents last Wednesday as well. And for that we thank them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. The late filing of the affidavits on behalf of the South African National Defence Force is hereby condoned. Yes, Mr ...(indistinct)

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, may I enquire. I'm indebted that the order has been granted. Will this document then be received$- if my memory does not fail me I think the next exhibit is Exhibit JJ.

CHAIRPERSON: My only concern Mr Da Silva, is that you know, you've given us a voluminous document. I looked through them. I couldn't find photo's of the promised hippos or the casspirs.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, in regard to the photographs steps have been taken to take photographs. I understand that they are being developed today. The person that took them undertook to do that today. As soon as those photographs are available I'll make them available to the Committee and my learned colleagues. I apologise for the delay in the photographs, Mr Chairman.

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CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Yes.

MR CAMBANIS: Thank you, Chair. We beg leave to call the next witness, Emily Ntomazonkwe Mashinini, who will give evidence in Sotho, Chair.

NTOMAZONKWE EMILY MASHININI: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Ma'am, is it correct that on the night of 17 June 1992 you resided at no 242 Thababosio Street in Boipatong?

MS MASHININI: That is correct.

MR CAMBANIS: Could you please tell the Chair and the Committee what happened, what you saw and heard during the course of that evening at your home.

MS MASHININI: It was round about 10 o'clock when I was at home and I heard gunshots. It was chaos outside.

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, there's a problem with Ms Cambanis's head set.

CHAIRPERSON EXPLAINS CHANNELS

MR CAMBANIS: Thank you, Chair. Chair, may I ask the witness please to repeat the answer. Thank you.

Ms Mashinini, could you please repeat the evidence you've just given.

MS MASHININI: I said on the 2nd of June 1992 round about, at 10 o'clock I heard gunshots and I peeped through the window and I saw a large group going the other way and I saw a koyoko driving in my street. When it approached my gate it wanted to drive in.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you please slow down so that we can take notes. You say that on the day in question you heard gunshots?

MS MASHININI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now would you take it from there.

MS MASHININI: I peeped through the window and I saw a large group of people walking in Bapedi Street.

MR CAMBANIS: Ms Mashinini, are you able to tell us anything more about this group of people? Can you describe them at all?

MS MASHININI: It will be difficult for me to describe anything. It was just chaos.

MR CAMBANIS: Please continue.

MS MASHININI: I saw a koyoko driving down in my street. When it arrived at my gate it turned as if it was getting into my gate. Then there was loud-speaking and they drove back into the road.

MR CAMBANIS: You said you saw the koyoko and it drove in your street. You said you heard loud-speaking. Can you just expand, what do you mean loud-speaking?

MS MASHININI: It is the loud speakers. It has just spoken outside right now.

MR CAMBANIS: Are you trying to convey that the sound was coming from the koyoko?

MS MASHININI: No, the sound was from the large group of people and the koyoko drove in Thababasio Street and it stopped a while at my gate and that phone announced something from the koyoko. And it drove in Bapedi Street in a high speed and it went to join, to go to those, to that group of people. And there were gunshots all the way.

MR CAMBANIS: Thank you. Can I just get back to what you call the phone.

MS MASHININI: I was outside right now and there were sounds coming from the koyoko outside right now. It's that type of a thing that I referred to.

MR CAMBANIS: For the record I think I am allowed to place on record that when we were standing outside the radio transmission was heard and the witness was referring to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, the radio transmission in the police van, in the koyoko. She is saying that the sound that she heard on the day in question was that she heard while she was outside just now?

MR CAMBANIS: That is what she's attempting to convey, yes, Chair.

MS MASHININI: That is correct.

MR CAMBANIS: Now this sound that you heard on the - on what you call the phone, the radio transmission, could you hear what was being said?

MS MASHININI: I could not hear. I did not hear what they were saying.

MR CAMBANIS: Could you hear - ascertain what language was being spoken?

MS MASHININI: I think it was English. I could not understand what they were saying.

MR CAMBANIS: But is it correct, Ms Mashinini, you're not sure, you don't know what language, is that correct?

MS MASHININI: I did not hear quite well. Had it been Sotho I would be in a position to hear.

MR SIBANYONI: Now when you say Siqowa are you referring to English or Afrikaans?

MS MASHININI: I'm referring to Afrikaans and the English.

MR CAMBANIS: But really what you're saying as far as you remember it wasn't Sotho, that's what you're sure of.

MS MASHININI: I am sure I would have heard had it been Sotho.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry. Can I just clarify this. You said you could not hear what they were saying.

MS MASHININI: I could not hear.

MS SIGODI: You could not hear or did - are you trying to say that you could not understand what they were saying? You could hear that they were speaking, but you could not understand what they were saying.

MS MASHININI: I heard that they were speaking, but I could not understand what they were saying.

MR CAMBANIS: Just for clarity, Ms Mashinini, when you saw the koyoko turning, getting towards your house, where was the group at that time, the group of attackers?

MS MASHININI: My house is no 4 from the corner. The group was walking in Bapedi Street.

MR CAMBANIS: And the koyoko was in which street?

MS MASHININI: The koyoko was also heading for Bapedi Street.

MR CAMBANIS: Please continue.

MS MASHININI: It drove off while the gunshot was still in place.

MR CAMBANIS: Ms Mashinini, did you see who was in the koyoko, who was driving?

MS MASHININI: I could not see who the driver was.

MR CAMBANIS: And besides the shooting that you heard, did you hear anything else at that time coming from the group of attackers?

MS MASHININI: I just heard sounds ... (intervention)

MR STRYDOM: I object to that leading question to mention attackers all the time because she didn't say attackers, she talked about a group. My learned friend keeps on referring to as to the attackers. She never said so.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, the group that - are you suggesting that apart from the attackers there was another group which was in the township?

MR STRYDOM: It will be the case on part of - the case of the applicants that the police - they weren't in the presence of police. So - and it will be the case that the police vehicles only arrived after the attack. And on that basis it cannot - the possibility cannot be ruled out that some of the residents gathered afterwards in the streets and she could have been confused. So what I'm saying is that if she gives evidence and she does not refer to attackers, my learned friend can't lead her as to let her believe that they were in fact the attackers.

MR CAMBANIS: I will concede that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Perhaps Ms Cambanis, describe them as no more than just a group of ...(indistinct)

MR CAMBANIS: I will do that. Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR CAMBANIS: Ma'am, is it correct that when you referred to the group in the street you said there was chaos?

MS MASHININI: It was a chaotic group. They were breaking windows on their way.

MR CAMBANIS: And besides breaking windows, what else did that group do? Did you see anything further?

MS MASHININI: I saw this group breaking windows, going down Bapedi and there were gunshots.

MR CAMBANIS: When you say there was gunshots are you able to assist this Committee about where the sound was coming from?

MS MASHININI: From the side of the shops towards the west.

MR CAMBANIS: Is that quite a distance from your home?

MS MASHININI: From the shops? My house is on the third street from the shops. It's not far.

MR CAMBANIS: And this group that was breaking glasses did you see if they had anything in their - were carrying anything in their hands?

MS MASHININI: I was in a state of shock. I ran into the house, I closed the door and I just peeped through the window.

MR CAMBANIS: And while this group was breaking windows, where was the koyoko?

MS MASHININI: It was driving towards them and it was firing in the other direction. It was - I saw it with my eyes. It was firing towards the other direction.

MR CAMBANIS: And once you'd got into your house what else did you see, Ma'am? What else can you tell?

MS MASHININI: I was still at the window, the koyoko drove back, it stopped again at my gate and there was loud-speaking again and it drove back.

MR CAMBANIS: Sorry. It drove back where?

MS MASHININI: It drove back to Bapedi.

MR CAMBANIS: Thank you, Chair. I have nothing further.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. Yes, Mr Strydom.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: On that night when you first heard guns shots, what were you doing?

MS MASHININI: After work I would come home and do the household chores. Everybody would go to bed and I would remain behind.

MR STRYDOM: Can I gather from that that you were ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What you're being asked is at the time when you heard the gunshots, what were you doing?

MS MASHININI: I was relaxing in the house.

MR STRYDOM: When you heard the gunshots did you leave the house?

MS MASHININI: I left the house and closed the gate quickly.

MR STRYDOM: When you went out now to close the gate did you see anything outside going on?

MS MASHININI: I saw that group smashing windows and I saw the koyoko driving downwards.

MR STRYDOM: If you say the koyoko was driving downwards, was it downwards in Thababasio Street or in Bapedi Street?

MS MASHININI: It was driving down in Thababasio turning into Bapedi.

MR STRYDOM: So do you say that the koyoko passed your house and travelled in the direction of Bapedi Street?

MS MASHININI: That is correct. It even stopped at my gate as if it was driving in and I heard loud-speaking and it drove back, it reversed and then it went down to Bapedi.

MR STRYDOM: So at the time you saw the koyoko at your gate you were still outside.

MS MASHININI: I was at the window. I was looking through the window.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Ma'am, is the position this. When you heard the gunshots you went out of the house, closed the gate and then returned to the house?

MS MASHININI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you subsequently watched what was going on outside through the window.

MS MASHININI: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: But what I want to know is what you saw whilst you were outside. When you went to close the gate, what did you see then at that stage? That's what I want to know.

MS MASHININI: I saw a group smashing windows. They were walking in Bapedi. When I ran back into the house here was a koyoko.

MR STRYDOM: Just to get clarity then. You only saw the koyoko whilst you returned, or at the stage when you returned to your house?

MS MASHININI: It was approaching. I got into the house, moved straight to the window.

MR STRYDOM: And through the window you saw the koyoko.

MS MASHININI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: You testified earlier on that it was approximately or round about 10 o'clock that night.

MS MASHININI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: I gather from that, by you using the words round about, that is just an estimation, is that correct?

MS MASHININI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: It could have been half an hour later isn't it so?

MS MASHININI: I do not consider. I estimate it to be around ten.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but it could have been half an hour before ten or half an hour past ten, isn't it so?

MS MASHININI: I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom, once the witness admits that this is just an estimate, I mean she could either be thirty minutes out of what the time was at the time. I don't think that's going to take us any further.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Chairperson.

MR STRYDOM: I want to ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What you can do is simply to put what you consider to be the correct time to - whatever proposition you want to put to her.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you that if you in fact saw a koyoko, it could only have been thirty minutes past ten because the first police vehicles, according to the police themselves, that entered Boipatong on that specific night came in at thirty minutes past ten. Do you have any comment?

MS MASHININI: I do not know what you have just said.

CHAIRPERSON: That was after the attack was it?

MR STRYDOM: Yes. Maybe just to make it clear for the witness I'll add those words "after the attack".

The first police vehicles that came in only came in after the attack and the time that is put on that is approximately thirty minutes past ten.

MR CAMBANIS: Chair, sorry to interrupt. But this - we've not had this evidence before. I'm not sure where my learned friend is getting this proposition, on what it is based.

CHAIRPERSON: My understanding of the evidence is that the police arrived after the attack. That's my - there were ... (end of tape 1, side A)

MR CAMBANIS: Chair, that's instructions. There's nothing before this Committee saying - we're not disputing that they did arrive, but when they arrived is certainly in dispute.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible - )

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Ma'am, what is being put to you is the following. The police came to Boipatong but they did so after the attack, when the people or the group that had been breaking windows had left. Did you understand what's been put to you?

MS MASHININI: I'm mentioning what I saw. I saw this group in Bapedi smashing windows and I saw a koyoko and it turned driving with them in Bapedi at the time of that attack.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson.

Just to answer my learned colleague and I was in fact referring to the latest exhibit, Exhibit JJ. On page 119 of that document a time is given about movements of a certain police vehicle, and if the document is read in context it would mean that that was the first police vehicle after the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.

MR STRYDOM: From your position where you stood at your gate, could you see where this - at which house this group was breaking windows?

MS MASHININI: It's at the house that was at the corner, white in colour and I even heard the smashing of windows as the group went along. But when I was at the window I could see the house at the corner.

MR STRYDOM: Is that the corner between Thababasio and Bapedi Streets?

MS MASHININI: It goes parallel with Thababasio.

MR STRYDOM: I'm not clear on that one. You say it's the house that still is in Thababasio or in another street? Can you give the name of the street if possible if it's another street?

MS MASHININI: The house is at the corner of Bapedi when you come from the shops. The street I live in goes down right at this corner.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know where Lekwa Street is?

MS MASHININI: Lekwa is right at the back, far at the back.

MR STRYDOM: Now the house you are referring to is that close to the shops where you saw people breaking windows?

MS MASHININI: It's at the corner of the third street from the shops, on the same line.

MR STRYDOM: Just to make it clear. Is that in the same street where you live?

MS MASHININI: No, it's in Bapedi. My street goes down.

MR STRYDOM: If I show you Exhibit J, it's a map of Boipatong ...(intervention)

MS MASHININI: I'm not good at maps. Can I draw it myself?

MR STRYDOM: Do you want to draw - I just want to get clarity where this house is where you saw the group had broke the windows.

MS MASHININI: The group was going in Bapedi, but my street goes this way. Now they were going to cross Thababasio and go straight. Now there's a house, a white house at the corner.

MR STRYDOM: Is that at the intersection or close to the intersection between Bapedi and Thababasio Streets?

MR CAMBANIS: Chair, may I bring my exhibits to you to show which house she's marked on J?

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MR STRYDOM: We've established now that the house that you are referring to is the house on the northwestern corner - no, sorry, that's wrong, southwestern corner at the intersection of Bapedi and Thababasio Streets.

MS MASHININI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: From your gate you could see people breaking windows there.

MS MASHININI: Yes, I saw them.

MR STRYDOM: So did you see only windows being broken at that house or other houses as well?

MS MASHININI: I could hear sounds of smashing windows.

MR STRYDOM: And the group you saw can you give any indication how many people were in this group?

MS MASHININI: It was quite a group. They were busy with their work. I could not even count.

MR STRYDOM: Ja. And you also can't give any description as to what kind of clothing they wore, if they had instruments with them, anything of the kind. You can't give.

MS MASHININI: I can't explain. I also got shocked and I went back into my house to switch off the lights.

MR STRYDOM: So let's just take it step by step. So after you saw the group there breaking the windows at that house you went into your house. You put off the lights. Is that right?

MS MASHININI: I switched off the lights. I went to the window.

MR STRYDOM: How long have you waited at the window before you saw the koyoko?

MS MASHININI: When I ran into the house the koyoko was driving downwards in a high speed.

MR STRYDOM: Then at what stage did the koyoko stop at your house?

MS MASHININI: It stopped immediately at my house and I switched off the lights and I heard the loud voice and it drove back.

MR STRYDOM: The window you were looking through was that pointing now direction of the street at Thababasio?

MS MASHININI: My house is facing in Thababasio.

MR STRYDOM: Yes. Now if a vehicle travelled past your house towards Bapedi Street and turned into Bapedi Street you won't be able to see that vehicle anymore. Is that so?

MS MASHININI: I will not see it because - I would not see it because it was fast.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but even if it travelled slowly. If it passed your house and it gets to Bapedi Street and you must bear in mind that you've got the fourth house from the corner. So it goes past your house. And if it... (intervention)

MS MASHININI: Yes, I would see the car when it drives by.

MR STRYDOM: Yes. But after that you won't be able to see the car anymore. Isn't that so?

MS MASHININI: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: So after the koyoko passed your house you can't say what happened to the koyoko. Is that right?

MS MASHININI: I heard gunshots and I said to myself it is the sam koyoko that's doing that.

MR STRYDOM: Ja. But apart from what you heard you could not see the koyoko anymore and you couldn't see any person firing from the koyoko.

MS MASHININI: That is correct. I heard the gun fire.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but that gunfire could have been from the group you saw earlier on. It is not necessarily from the koyoko, is that correct?

MS MASHININI: After it drove by there were - there was a heavy gunfire.

MR STRYDOM: Ja. Do you know in which direction the koyoko turned when it reached - it came past your house, it got to Bapedi Street, now it could either go left or right. Do you know if it went left or right?

MS MASHININI: I have big windows. When I'm looking through the window I see up to the last house in Bapedi because my windows are very big.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but the question is do you know if the koyoko went left or right?

MS MASHININI: It was driving in Bapedi. It turned towards Slovo.

MR STRYDOM: So do you say that from your window, which is the fourth house, you could see right to the intersection between Thababasio and Bapedi Streets?

MS MASHININI: Yes, yes. Even when you pass there I would even see you.

MR STRYDOM: And after the koyoko turned left, what did you see further in connection with the koyoko?

MS MASHININI: My siblings arrived and they told me that the daughter in law and the child had been killed. That's what I was told.

MR STRYDOM: So just after the koyoko passed your house your siblings arrived. Is that what you're saying?

MS MASHININI: That is correct.

MR CAMBANIS: Chair, I thought that he was asking after the koyoko had turned into Bapedi Street towards Slovo Park. That is the time that he's asking. And then he said did you see anything further in relation to the koyoko and she said after that her siblings arrived. Not after it drove past he home.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Chairperson, the witness already gave an answer. I've just asked that question on the basis that it can take only a few seconds for a vehicle to get from - to pass the house to the intersection. But more correctly would be after the vehicle turned. So just after you saw the vehicle for the last tim the siblings arrived. Is that - that's basically the question.

MS MASHININI: A minute. Just after a minute they arrived and they told me that there are deaths in the family.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know from which house did they come, the sib.. - your family?

MS MASHININI: They came from the settlement area. They came through Bapedi Street.

MR STRYDOM: Ja, the settlement area do you refer to Slovo Park?

MS MASHININI: That is correct. When you are in Bapedi you're heading towards Slovo, isn't it so?

MR STRYDOM: In your evidence-in-chief you said the following: That the koyoko was driving in the direction of the group.

MS MASHININI: That's what I'm saying because they were going - the group was going down and the koyoko drove after them.

MR STRYDOM: Yes. But you also said that the koyoko was firing in the other direction. Why did you say that?

MS MASHININI: It's because there was a heavy gunfire, severely heavy gunfire. That was after the koyoko drove from my house.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but you couldn't say that the koyoko was responsible for that fire - gunshots. The question is you can't say if the koyoko was responsible for that guns shots being fired.

MS MASHININI: I'm saying it's the koyoko. Why after it drove off from my house there were heavy gunfire?

MR STRYDOM: You also testified that the koyoko drove back at a certain stage. What did you refer to?

MS MASHININI: Yes, it drove back.

MR STRYDOM: When was that?

MS MASHININI: It was after my siblings arrived to tell me that there are death in the family, the koyoko came back. It stopped at the gate and there was a loud voice again and it drove back.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see from which direction the koyoko came when you say it came back for the first time?

MS MASHININI: No, I only heard when it was talking outside because I was now concentrating on the issues that were brought by my siblings.

MR STRYDOM: After you saw the group breaking the window there at the intersection, you never saw that group again, is that correct? That was the last time for you to see them.

MS MASHININI: Yes. Moving in Bapedi towards Slovo.

MR STRYDOM: So then I will be correct to say that you never saw the group and a koyoko at the same time.

MS MASHININI: It was driving fast to keep pace with them. I don't know why are you saying that.

MR STRYDOM: All I'm saying is you never saw the koyoko and the group at the same time.

MS MASHININI: What are you expecting me to say? The group had not even walked past when the koyoko drove from my house to join the street. They were shouting and just joined. The group had not walked past when then the koyoko joined them.

MR STRYDOM: Yes. I'm going to leave this for argument but I'm putting to you that according to your evidence you saw the group for the last time at the intersection. Then you went into your house and then you looked through the window and then you saw the koyoko. So what I'm putting to you is you never saw the koyoko and the group at the same time.

MS MASHININI: Can you just repeat what you've just said the - about the intersection the last time I saw the group at the intersection.

MR STRYDOM: I asked you when was the last time for you to see the group that was busy breaking a window at that house at the intersection.

MS MASHININI: The group was walking past. They were going down. They were just passing. It was a group and the koyoko joined them whilst they were still in a group.

MR STRYDOM: So do you say now that you saw the koyoko joining the group?

MS MASHININI: Thank you very much. You have it.

MR STRYDOM: When did you see that?

MS MASHININI: When I was at the window. I can see from my window.

MR STRYDOM: So what did you - when you looked through your window you saw the koyoko pass. Where was the group at that stage?

MS MASHININI: Sir, I was going outside to close the gate, I saw a koyoko approaching. I went back into the house, I went to the window and I saw people. They were many.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see this koyoko whilst you were still outside?

MS MASHININI: When I looked at this group after closing the gate, I wanted to run into the house and I saw a - before I could run into the house I saw a koyoko. These people were still around and because the koyoko was at a high speed I just ran into the house to watch the window and I heard a loud voice and it drove back at a high speed. And I could see the people as well even after the koyoko had turned. That's correct, I saw them.

MR STRYDOM: When the koyoko passed your house where did you see the people, the group?

MS MASHININI: The group was in Bapedi Street. That is the street from the shops going this direction.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you earlier agree with me when I put to you that the last time you saw the group was when they were at that house breaking the windows?

MR CAMBANIS: Chair, with respect. That house is in - there is no difference, it is in Bapedi Street.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, as I understand the evidence this people were moving. She said they were moving, they were not standing there.

MR CAMBANIS: It was showed on the map where she marked on the corner of Thababasio and Bapedi Street.

MR STRYDOM: Chairman, I will leave this for argument. But what you've just testified now is also something new. I want to put to you that you saw the koyoko whilst you were still at the gate and when you ran towards the house. Earlier on I understood your evidence to be that you saw the koyoko through the window for the first time.

MR CAMBANIS: No, Chair, that is not - she said she closed the gate, she returned to her house and she saw the koyoko. That has been her evidence.

MR STRYDOM: That's her latest evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: It was put to - you know she was asked

"Did you see the koyoko when you were inside the house?"

And she said:

"Yes, through the window".

MS MASHININI: Please. No, when I saw the koyoko I was outside and I ran to the window to see it clearly. That was when - I saw it first when I was outside.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give any description of this koyoko?

MS MASHININI: I would have been a fool to concentrate on the koyoko while there was chaos. I just saw it was a koyoko, very dark in golour. I would not concentrate on colours of a koyoko while there was trouble.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see any occupants in the koyoko?

MS MASHININI: How could I see them whilst they are inside, because when they speak you only hear the voice, you don't see them. They are inside, aren't they? It's at night.

MR STRYDOM: And later when they returned, did you have an opportunity to look at the colour and to see who was inside this vehicle?

MS MASHININI: I was helpless. My siblings had just arrived to tell me that there was trouble in the family, but I did see it though.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you that you might have seen a koyoko but that was some time after the attack on Boipatong.

MS MASHININI: That's not what I saw.

MR STRYDOM: I've got no further questions. Thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Lowies.

MR LOWIES: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LOWIES: Ms Mashinini, when you saw the koyoko in front of your house, was there anybody in the vicinity or the koyoko at that stage?

MS MASHININI: No. The people were down there walking in Bapedi. There was nobody in the vicinity, It was just the koyoko itself.

MR LOWIES: Now when you saw it the first time, did it stop actually there at your place?

MS MASHININI: It stopped at my house. There was a voice and it sped off.

MR LOWIES: From what you observed, do you have any idea why it stopped there at your house?

MS MASHININI: I do not know, I just got surprised when it stopped at my house. There was this sound and driving off again.

MR LOWIES: When it approached your house did you see anybody in the vicinity of the koyoko?

MS MASHININI: No, I did not see anybody. The group was right there at the back.

MR LOWIES: So the road was clear for the koyoko?

MS MASHININI: The road was clear, there was nothing in the street.

MR LOWIES: Now when it stopped in front of your house, did it actually turn or did it just come to a standstill facing the same direction?

MS MASHININI: It turned into the house. The house was even lit by the lights.

MR LOWIES: So the nose was actually physically there by the gate. Am I understanding you correctly?

MS MASHININI: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: And then it started to move again.

MS MASHININI: Yes, that was after the loud-speaking.

MR LOWIES: Approximately how long would you say did it come to a standstill there in front of your house?

MS MASHININI: It was in a hurry, Sir, it was in a hurry.

MR LOWIES: No, but how long did it come to a standstill?

MS MASHININI: A short time, difficult to estimate. It sped off.

MR LOWIES: Can you estimate time?

MS MASHININI: I had no time to estimate, I was just surprised as to what was happening.

MR LOWIES: No, but normally can you estimate time in general?

MS MASHININI: What do you mean, Sir? How do I estimate time?

MR LOWIES: Can you estimate time in general?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, where is this going to take us?

The ...(indistinct) was there or she can't tell us, her ability to estimate.

You are not able to tell us how long the koyoko was there in front of your house?

MS MASHININI: No, Sir, I can't. It was in such a hurry.

MR LOWIES: So then it could have been there for an hour because you can't estimate?

MS MASHININI: I am not estimating, but it was in a hurry. It was not an hour.

MR LOWIES: Could it have been half an hour?

MS MASHININI: I do not know, Sir, it was in a hurry.

MR LOWIES: Now whilst the koyoko was standing there in front of your house, could you see the attackers?

MS MASHININI: I could see them clearly from my window.

When I'm at my window I can see at the corner. Even if I know you I can even see that you are coming.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be the corner of Thababasio and Bapedi Street?

MS MASHININI: Yes.

MR LOWIES: If you have to give us an indication, if possible, can you maybe show us the distance or can you tell us the distance that they were at that stage, the attackers?

MS MASHININI: Sir, my house is number four from the corner. From the corner of Bapedi my house is number four.

MR LOWIES: Yes. And how far were the attackers from there at the time when the koyoko was standing in front of your house for the first time?

MS MASHININI: They were moving in Bapedi, many of them. They were engaging in their activities and here comes a koyoko. I get into the house, I go straight to the window, I look through the window.

MR LOWIES: Yes. How far were they from the koyoko?

MS MASHININI: What do you mean, Sir? These people are in Bapedi Street and my house is number four from the corner from Bapedi Street.

MR LOWIES: I actually mean a simple thing. How far was the closest group of people from the koyoko, then?

MS MASHININI: Where are you taking me to, Sir, because I'm telling you that the koyoko is right here at my house and they are in Bapedi Street going downwards. What do you want me to say? What else do you want me to say?

MR LOWIES: Do you want to answer the question as to how far they were?

MR CAMBANIS: Chair, I think she said several times that they were in Bapedi Street, corner Thababasio, her house is the fourth house from that corner, that is how far they were at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, what he wants to find out is in relation to the koyoko how far. Is she able to estimate that distance?

MS MASHININI: When it drove off my house it was going straight to them.

MR LAX: Can you - if I can interpose, Chair. Can you tell us, are you able to work in distances in metres or in feet or in showing us in this room? That's what you're being asked. You're being asked to try and help us get a picture. You know it is four houses. That's what you've told us, but you're being asked to try and give us some idea of how far is four houses, how far is it from the koyoko to where the people were. Do you understand?

MS MASHININI: It's a distance, but I can't - I'm not good at distances, but my house is the fourth from the corner. But when I'm at my house I can see you at the corner when you're walking.

MR LOWIES: Are you trying to say that the attackers at that stage were at the corner?

MS MASHININI: Yes, they were walking past. It was quite a group.

MR LOWIES: Were they walking or running?

MS MASHININI: They were walking picking up something from the ground and you would hear smashing windows.

MR LOWIES: Did you actually see a window being smashed or did you just see people in the vicinity and then hear the sound of windows being smashed?

MS MASHININI: I heard windows smashing. In the morning we went to see, we went to see.

MR LOWIES: Did you actually see a person near a window of a house?

MS MASHININI: Which person? There were many people walking past smashing, now which person do you want me to specifically concentrate on?

MR LOWIES: I understood your evidence that you only heard the sound of smashing windows, is that correct? You didn't see.

MS MASHININI: Sir, I heard. That's when I went outside. When I've just closed my gate I saw this large group of people, I closed the gate, I got into the house, I went to the window. When something is being - when something is breaking you can hear. I heard windows shattering.

MR LOWIES: All right. But you didn't see a group of people near windows that they were breaking. That's what I'm asking you, not what you heard.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, I mean the witness makes it clear that all she heard was the breaking of the windows, and she must have assumed that they were being broken by this group of people that she'd seen.

MR LOWIES: That is the conclusion, Chairman. I'll proceed.

Was your house attacked?

MS MASHININI: No.

MR LOWIES: Your neighbours, your next-door neighbours?

MS MASHININI: They were not attacked.

MR LOWIES: Now when the koyoko sped off in the direction of the attackers ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry. If - I didn't hear the answer to whether her house was attacked.

INTERPRETER: It was not attacked, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And the neighbour's house? That was the next question.

INTERPRETER: The neighbours were not attacked as well.

MR LAX: Thank you.

INTERPRETER: Thank you, Chair.

MR LOWIES: Now when the koyoko sped towards the attackers, did you see what it was doing? I'm talking about the koyoko.

MS MASHININI: I only heard the gunfire worsening.

MR LOWIES: Did you actually see them joining the attackers or not?

MS MASHININI: Yes, this is what I saw. These people were not yet - all of them had not passed this street and koyoko joined them. In other words there was a group in front, the koyoko joining them and other people coming after.

CHAIRPERSON: Coming after what? ...(indistinct) koyoco.

MS MASHININI: These people are going, the koyoko joins them, it goes with them and these people still came after - behind the koyoko.

CHAIRPERSON: And these people were they still passing next to your house?

MS MASHININI: They are not passing next to my house, they are passing in the street, but I can see them through the window.

CHAIRPERSON: So these are the people who were walking along Bapedi Street.

MS MASHININI: That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And you could only - you could see them at the corner of Bapedi and Thababasio, is that right?

MS MASHININI: That is correct. They are coming from the direction of the shops. They are many, they are still smashing, Koyoko joins them and they still come behind the koyoko.

MR LOWIES: Now these people that were following, were they not normal citizens staying there in Boipatong, residents of Boipatong?

MS MASHININI: No. These people were busy.

MR LOWIES: Why do you say so?

MS MASHININI: These people were picking something from the ground throwing. What were they doing? Were they not breaking?

MR LOWIES: So you saw them actually throwing something from the ground.

MS MASHININI: Yes, I saw them.

MR LOWIES: Are you sure about this?

MS MASHININI: Sir, I am sure. I saw with my eyes.

MR LOWIES: And what do you think they were throwing, culd you see? What were they throwing at?

MS MASHININI: It must be - it's stones, because windows were shattering.

MR LOWIES: So you could actually see how they were breaking the windows and that was by throwing stones at it?

MS MASHININI: They were throwing. They were busy. It was just a chaotic group.

MR LOWIES: Now why didn't you tell us before that you could actually see the attackers were throwing stones at the houses?

MR CAMBANIS: Chair, she has previously given evidence that they were picking something from the ground.

CHAIRPERSON: And the house ...(indistinct)

MR CAMBANIS: ...(indistinct) stones.

MR LOWIES: It was not in-chief.

CHAIRPERSON: But at some point she did tell us that.

MR LOWIES: I want to put it to you that this is only something that you sucked out of your thumb during cross-examination.

MS MASHININI: I never sucked anything out of my thumb, I will not go through such pain and come here and create my own story.

MR LOWIES: When you told us how the koyoko joined the attackers, you showed with your hands that they were actually going around a corner.

MS MASHININI: Yes.

MR LOWIES: So am I to understand from that, that when the koyoco joined the attackers, they were going around the corner?

MS MASHININI: These people are going in Bapedi straight, they are going towards the informal settlement. The koyoko leaves my house, it's going to join these people.

MR LOWIES: Now where did it join, at the corner or was it already turning towards the group?

MS MASHININI: At the corner of this white house that I've referred to. That is the corner of Thababasio and Bapedi.

MR LOWIES: Now when it joined the group, surely you could not see what they were doing, what the attackers were doing at that stage?

MS MASHININI: They had not all gone past this street, they were still going down.

MR LOWIES: And the koyoko did it come to a standstill or did it also turn at the corner?

MS MASHININI: It did not stop, it turned in the group and they were still following from behind.

MR LOWIES: And the koyoko was it still driving fast?

MS MASHININI: Yes.

MR LOWIES: And the group, were they just walking or running at that stage?

MS MASHININI: It was a chaotic situation.

MR LOWIES: Well, were they walking or running? Can you say?

MS MASHININI: Sir, I'm saying it was a chaotic situation, you would not even check as to whether they were running or walking.

MR LOWIES: Then the koyoko returned.

MS MASHININI: They had all gone now, they were now in the informal settlement. My siblings arrived. They told me there's trouble in the family, people have died. The koyoko came back. It was at the gate. I heard the loud voice and it drove away.

MR LOWIES: Now what did it do at the gate? Did it... (intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, Mr Lowies, just to get some clarity. Are you able to say that the koyoko you saw for the second time is the same koyoko that came by the first time?

MS MASHININI: I do not know the colour, but I just saw koyoko. I saw a koyoko in Thababasio, one koyoko in Thababasio. I would not differentiate between whether there were two or not.

MR LOWIES: Does that mean you can't say whether they had the same colour either?

MS MASHININI: I did not have time to check the colour, Sir.

MR LOWIES: Now the question was put to you, I did not catch your answer, what did the koyoko do on the second time there in front of your house? Did it actually come to a standstill or not?

MS MASHININI: It did as in the first instance, it stopped at the gate and drove away.

MR LOWIES: Did it also turn into your driveway, nose facing the door or the on-ramp?

MS MASHININI: It did exactly what it did in the first instance. It turned into the house, there was loud-speaking and it drove away.

MR LOWIES: Which direction?

MS MASHININI: ...(no English interpretation)

MR LOWIES: I didn't catch the answer.

MS MASHININI: It headed for the first direction.

MR LOWIES: Did it come from the same direction that it headed in again?

MS MASHININI: When I saw it for the second time it was already at the gate. I was not concerned with its coming, I was concerned with the deaths that occurred in the family.

MR LOWIES: Did you know anything of an attack thereafter or did you see anything of the attackers thereafter, after it left?

MS MASHININI: We left for the informal settlement.

MR LOWIES: Yes and then?

MS MASHININI: I've heard already that my siblings had been killed, so I went to see.

MR LOWIES: And when you arrived in the informal settlement did you see any attackers?

MS MASHININI: No, they had gone already.

MR LOWIES: So can I ask you to tell me whether the following scenario is correct from your evidence. You saw the koyoko joining the attackers the first time.

MS MASHININI: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: Approximately a minute after the koyoko was there at your place your siblings arrived with the bad news.

MS MASHININI: It was - yes, it was quite some time.

MR LOWIES: No - quite some time?

MS MASHININI: They had been long gone. That is the group and the koyoko.

MR LOWIES: So it wasn't a minute?

MS MASHININI: Sir, it was quite a long time.

MR LOWIES: Right. They arrived there and how long did you remain at your house before you decided to leave for the informal settlement, can you give us an indication?

MS MASHININI: We stayed a while. Actually we were on our way out. We saw the koyoko, went back into the house. We were now scared of this koyoko.

CHAIRPERSON: That is now - would that be the stage when it was coming for the second time?

MS MASHININI: Yes. I had received the report already that my - other of my siblings have died.

MR LOWIES: After it left for the second time, how long did you remain at the house? Can you give us an indication?

MS MASHININI: We stayed in the house and the children were crying in the house, so I was assisting them.

MR LOWIES: How long did you stay there before you left for the informal settlement? Can you help us with an estimation?

MS MASHININI: Sir, there were five children at my house, all crying. I had to attend to them. I do not know how long we stayed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. We understand that. You have told us ...(intervention)

MS MASHININI: We arrived at 6 o'clock in the informal settlement.

CHAIRPERSON: That is 6 o'clock in the morning?

MS MASHININI: That is correct, Sir.

MR LOWIES: Was it light already in the morning? Was the sun out already?

MS MASHININI: It was dark, Sir, because there was smoke all over and there was teargas as well.

MR LOWIES: Teargas?

MS MASHININI: We could not see, our vision was impaired by their things.

MR LOWIES: I don't follow.

MS MASHININI: I'm saying it was dark and the situation was worsened by the smoke of what they fired.

MR LOWIES: Who do you mean fired smoke and when?

MS MASHININI: I'm saying the koyoko did that.

MR LOWIES: When?

MS MASHININI: On that day there was a large smoke.

MR LOWIES: No, but let's just get this clear. 6 o'clock the morning when you went to the informal settlement, was the smoke that was fired from the koyoko still in the air?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, the witness is telling us that they arrived at this informal settlement in the morning at approximately 6 o'clock and it was dark, there was smoke, and presumably she must be assuming that it must be some smoke that might have been fired by the police during that evening. She hasn't told us about seeing police firing teargas.

MR LOWIES: Chairman, I would say it's very important. If this is a witness... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Then ask the witness the question whether she saw anyone firing the teargas.

MR LOWIES: I was trying to, Sir, with respect. Now did you see anybody firing teargas from the koyoko?

MS MASHININI: No, but the smell indicated that they were fired from a koyoko. Who else could have fired those?

MR LOWIES: Now when did you become aware of this smell?

MS MASHININI: There was smell all over. There was dark - it was dark and there was a cloud of smoke.

MR LOWIES: When did you become aware of the smell for the first time?

MS MASHININI: Sir, we left our houses, we were heading for the informal settlement. Sir, you're really giving me trouble.

MR LOWIES: Maybe because you're not telling the truth. I'm asking you when did you see the smell - or, become aware of the smell for the first time?

MS MASHININI: When these things happened there was a cloud of smoke in Serela and there was this smell.

MR LOWIES: Now when you're talking about when these things happened, are you talking about the attack or are you talking the next morning?

MS MASHININI: We've been told that there are deaths in our families. We left for the informal settlement. We looked at the time, it was 6 o'clock when we arrived there. We were going to look for our families.

MR LOWIES: But it's still not clear to me, when did you become aware of the smoke for the first time?

MS MASHININI: Sir, I was there. I heard the smell - I could smell. Now what are you referring to when you say ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What he wants to find out, at what stage did you ...(indistinct) this smell for the first time?

MS MASHININI: I did not look at the watch, but when we arrived in the settlement it was 6 o'clock when we looked at our watches.

MR LOWIES: Are you assuming that the smell comes from the koyoko?

MS MASHININI: That's my assumption, where else could this funny smell come from.

MR LOWIES: You also assumed that the koyoko fired shots in the opposite direction than the people that it joined that night, correct?

MS MASHININI: When it joined the people - are you referring to the people who were in Bapedi Street?

MR LOWIES: Yes.

MS MASHININI: Yes, these people were going down, it came speeding, it joined them.

MR LOWIES: Now I want to put it to you that you are assuming a lot of things and one of those things that you are assuming is that the koyoko was working in conjunction with the attackers, and it's not true.

MS MASHININI: Sir, you will say that because you were not involved, nothing happened to you. I was there, I saw. I saw this. I will not come here and lie.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, what you're putting to this witness she never said that. She never testified that the police were working with the attackers, all she said was that she saw the koyoko along the street joining the attackers.

MR LOWIES: I want to put it to you that you're also assuming - let's hear, are you saying that the koyoko was working in conjunction with the attackers?

MS MASHININI: Sir, what I said was the koyoko joined these people. That's what I said.

MR LOWIES: That the koyoko helped the people or did it stop the people?

MS MASHININI: I don't know what kind of help you're talking about. Please listen.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, you've covered this ground. Do you want this witness to say that the koyoko was working with the police?

MR LOWIES: Chairman, that - I am flabbergasted. I ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: All that the witness has told is that she saw the koyoko on the spot follow the attackers. It joined them. It came back later on. She never said that the police in the koyoko were working together with the police - I mean with the attackers.

MR LOWIES: Chairman, may I not explore whether this is indeed the fact? Because I could ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, if the witness has not said that.

MR LOWIES: I could very well imagine, Chairman, that at the end of the day it may be argued what did the koyoko do there? Why did it not do anything? And I mean if I don't canvass this with the witness I would not be able to rebut it. And I ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ... (indistinct) something that doesn't exist is not ...(indistinct) of inferences.

MR LOWIES: Well, may I not explore the inferences?

CHAIRPERSON: No, if it is irrelevant.

MR LOWIES: Well, Chairman, in that case I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY LOWIES

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Lowies. Yes, Mr Da Silva? Ms Pretorius?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PRETORIUS: Ms Mashinini, the shooting you say you heard, you don't know who shot, you just assumed it was the people from the koyoko.

MS MASHININI: I did not see, but I saw the koyoko turning and joining the group and the gunfire got worse.

MS PRETORIUS: So it could have been the group shooting at the koyoko?

MS MASHININI: Which group?

MS PRETORIUS: The people it was joining. You don't know.

MS MASHININI: I don't think that is the scenario.

MS PRETORIUS: But you can't say it did not happen like that.

MS MASHININI: I will not respond to what I do not understand.

MS PRETORIUS: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, you indicated that Ms Tanzer should ...

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER: When you first saw the koyoko, were you scared of the koyoko or did you think it was there to protect you?

MS MASHININI: I got shocked, I got scared when I saw this large group. When I saw the koyoko the fear worsened and I ran into the house.

MS TANZER: Did you have any prior warnings or did you hear anything, rumours that there was going to be an attack that night?

MS MASHININI: No, I never heard of anything because I was working.

MS TANZER: Thank you, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Da Silva.

MR DA SILVA: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No questions, Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: No re-examination?

MR CAMBANIS: There's no re-examination.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: No questions, Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: I've got no questions, Mr Chairperson.

ADV SIGODI: No questions, Mr Chairperson

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Very well. You may stand down.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: The time now is about twenty to one, shouldn't we take a break now perhaps and then ...

MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: Is the next witness ready?

MR CAMBANIS: The next witness is ready, but we've had a bit of a long stretch, we'd appreciate taking the adjournment now if we may.

MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MS CAMBANIS: Chair I did not hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we - Okay. We can do two things. One we can take the luncheon adjournment now and then perhaps come back at quarter past one or one thirty, or we can - what would work best? Do you have to leave at three today?

MR CAMBANIS: Tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: Tomorrow. Okay. Well, perhaps let's take the lunch adjournment now at half past one. Very well.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready to ...

MR BERGER: Chairperson, the next witness is Ms Florina Dlamini. Ms Cambanis had gone to locate her. I see they've just come into the hall now.

MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MR BERGER: I'm sorry, Judge, I thought the witness was going to be sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what language she's going to speak?

MR BERGER: She's going to speak in Sotho. For the record, if I could just put her full names on the record. It's Selane Florina Dlamini.

SELANE FLORINA DLAMINI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: Ms Dlamini, is it correct that on the 17th of June 1992 you were living at 1110 Barolong Street, Boipatong?

MS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Is it also correct that on that evening you were - immediately before the attack, you were at your house?

MS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR BERGER: And that there were other people also in the house with you?

MS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR BERGER: What was it that caught your attention that there was an attack happening?

MS DLAMINI: There is nothing, but I just heard the sound.

MR BERGER: What did you hear?

MS DLAMINI: I just heard the sound outside.

MR BERGER: The sound of what?

MS DLAMINI: As if people were smashing the windows outside. That's what I heard.

MR BERGER: Can you estimate what time that was?

MS DLAMINI: It was around 10 o'clock in the evening.

MR BERGER: Why do you say it was around ten?

MS DLAMINI: Because we had just watched the film in the dining room which started at half past nine until - it ran until 10 o'clock.

MR BERGER: That was on the TV.

MS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR BERGER: When you heard the sound of windows smashing or being smashed, what did you do?

MS DLAMINI: I peeped through the window.

MR BERGER: And what did you see?

MS DLAMINI: I saw a large group of people.

MR BERGER: Could you estimate how many people?

MS DLAMINI: They could be more than 200.

MR BERGER: And what were they doing?

MS DLAMINI: They were moving along the tar road.

MR BERGER: What is the name of that road that they were moving along?

MS DLAMINI: That is Lekwa.

MR BERGER: How far was your house - is your house from Lekwa Street?

MS DLAMINI: I'm at the corner of Lekwa Street.

MR BERGER: The corner of Lekwa and Barolong.

MS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that your house was also attacked?

MS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR BERGER: How long after you saw these men - or... - yes, these men moving along Lekwa Street was it that your house was attacked?

MS DLAMINI: The time when I said to the other people inside the house that they should hide themself under the beds then the smashing of the windows has started.

MR BERGER: That's the smashing of the windows of your house?

MS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Did anyone come into your house?

MS DLAMINI: Two men entered the bedroom where we were.

MR BERGER: Could you describe these men?

MS DLAMINI: They were big men.

MR BERGER: And what were they wearing?

MS DLAMINI: What I recognises was their white headband.

MR BERGER: Were these black men or white men?

MS DLAMINI: They were black men.

MR BERGER: And then they proceeded to attack the people inside your house, is that correct?

MS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR BERGER: What did they use in the attack?

MS DLAMINI: They were using spears. There were heavy spears with them.

MR BERGER: How many members of your family were injured in this attack?

MS DLAMINI: Are you referring to the people who were in the house?

MR BERGER: Yes.

MS DLAMINI: That's my daughter, my mother and myself.

MR BERGER: Was anybody killed inside the house?

MS DLAMINI: Yes, my mother and my daughter died as a result of the attack.

MR BERGER: The interpreter is indicating for you to come a bit closer to your microphone. During the attack did any of the men say anything?

MS DLAMINI: The one who attacked me and my daughter was speaking in Zulu.

MR BERGER: Do you remember what he said?

MS DLAMINI: He said: "These dogs should die because they killed our people."

MR BERGER: And when he said that he was busy stabbing you and your daughter.

MS DLAMINI: He started with me and those who were standing at the door said to him: "Let's go." And that ms when this man uttered this words.

MR BERGER: So it was during the attack on you, your daughter and your mother?

MS DLAMINI: After attacking me, he attacked my daughter and then uttered those words.

MR BERGER: How long - if you can, how long did this attack in your house last?

MS DLAMINI: It could not be long. It can be about fifteen minutes.

MR BERGER: According - to you it did not seem like a long time.

MS DLAMINI: They entered into the dining room and they broke the property and then they entered the bedroom and they stabbed us and I think - according to my estimation that could be fifteen minutes.

MR BERGER: And then how did the attack end? Did they just leave, walk out?

MS DLAMINI: The others said to the people who were attacking that they should all go and that's when they left.

MR BERGER: And which way did they go?

MS DLAMINI: The last one went through the gate. As I peeped through the window I could see the last one who went through the gate.

MR BERGER: And which way did that last one go?

MS DLAMINI: He went down Lekwa Street towards the shops.

MR BERGER: And what else did you see as you peeped out the window?

MS DLAMINI: As I was peeping through the window I could see the last one was going through the gate and I saw the hippo at the corner of that street.

MR BERGER: How far was the hippo from the last of the attackers as you saw at the corner?

MS DLAMINI: He was not far because my gate and the corner Barolong Street are close, very close.

MR BERGER: He was at the gate and the hippo was in which street?

MS DLAMINI: It was at the corner of Lekwa.

MR BERGER: The hippo was at the corner of Lekwa and Barolong.

MS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And at that time the hippo - I beg your pardon, the last of the attackers was leaving your gate.

MS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And where were the rest of the attackers?

MS DLAMINI: I could not see the rest because I saw the hippo.

MR BERGER: And in which direction was the hippo moving?

MS DLAMINI: Towards the shops.

MR BERGER: Up Lekwa Street towards the shops.

MS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Is there anything else that you witnessed the hippo doing in relation to the attackers or as it moved up Lekwa Street?

MS DLAMINI: I did not see anything because I stopped peeping through the window because I was now attending to my kid.

MR BERGER: When the attackers left your house did they leave more or less as a group or did it happen in a different way?

MS DLAMINI: When they came first it was a large group.

MR BERGER: Yes, no I'm asking when the attackers who were in your house, when they left your house did they leave more or less as a group?

MS DLAMINI: I only saw this last one and I could not see the rest, and that's when I saw this hippo.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson. I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Yes, Mr Strydom.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chair.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Ms Dlamini, did you give evidence in connection with this Boipatong massacre at the Goldstone Commission?

MS DLAMINI: Yes, I went to Vereeniging where we were giving statements.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but did you sit down and give oral evidence in a committee similar to this?

MS DLAMINI: Yes, that was in Pretoria.

MR STRYDOM: You gave a statement in Vereeniging and you testified in Pretoria. Is that what you're saying?

MS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM: In Pretoria when you gave evidence, were you referred to under some kind of different name or was it your own name you used?

MS DLAMINI: The name that I haven't mentioned here is Mukaba. Now because I'm known as Ms Dlamini because I married the Dlamini family.

MR STRYDOM: Did you give evidence at the criminal trial?

MS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: And then you used the surname Mukaba, is that correct?

MS DLAMINI: Yes, I did.

MR STRYDOM: And as far as your memory serves you, did you mention to the Court during the criminal trial that you saw a hippo?

MS DLAMINI: Yes, I did.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from yourself in the house, were the following people also in that house, that 1110 Barolong Street? Steve Senekowa?

MS DLAMINI: He arrived after the attack.

MR STRYDOM: Maria Mukaba?

MS DLAMINI: I don't know Maria Mukaba.

MR STRYDOM: If the Committee can just bear with me. Do you know a person with the name of Salina Cihinane. I'll spell it C-I-H-I-N-A-N-E.

MS DLAMINI: I don't know her.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you spell that name again.

MR STRYDOM: C-I-H-I-N-A-N-E.

INTERPRETER: The witness said she doesn't know.

MR STRYDOM: Because I want to put to you that Steve Senekowa, Maria Mukaba and Saline Cihinane are the persons that testified in the criminal - during the criminal case in connection with what happened at 1110 Barolong Street. Do you have any comment?

MS DLAMINI: May I request you to tell me?

MR STRYDOM: No, we'll get to that. I just want to establish the names of the witnesses that you know that testified in connection what happened at 1110 Mosheshwe Street.

MR BERGER: It's not Mosheshwe.

MR STRYDOM: Sorry. Barolong Street.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand what was put to you?

MS DLAMINI: My understanding is that he wanted to tell me that Mr Senekowa and others have given evidence in the criminal trial. That is why I'm saying I'll ask him to tell me what they said.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. But as far as you can recall do you know whether they gave evidence at the criminal trial or not?

MS DLAMINI: I know Steve did, but I don't know Maria Mukaba. I only know Maria Dlamini who is my daughter.

CHAIRPERSON: And did Maria Dlamini give evidence at the criminal trial?

MS DLAMINI: No, she did not because she died on the same day of the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and these other persons, Selina, do you know her?

MS DLAMINI: I don't know her, I only know Steve.

MR STRYDOM: Let me ask you this. Apart from the people that died in the house, were there other ...

...(end of side A of tape)

MS DLAMINI: I was with children in the house.

MR STRYDOM: And no adults, is that correct?

MS DLAMINI: No.

MR STRYDOM: You testified earlier on today that after the last person that you looked through the window. You saw that that person was now leaving and at that stage you saw a hippo, is that correct?

MS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM: You also testified that the hippo you saw went up Lekwa Street. Is that right?

MS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM: And in which direction was that person walking? Was he walking in the same direction as the hippo or in another direction?

MS DLAMINI: That's correct. That is down the street towards the shops.

MR STRYDOM: So the hippo was - just to get clarity - was then moving in the opposite direction as the person you saw leaving?

MR BERGER: No, Chairperson. The witness said the hippo was moving towards the shops. Then she said the last person was moving towards the shops. In one instance it was up and the other one it was down, but if one has a look at the street it can only be in one direction. From the corner of Lekwa and Barolong one can only move in one direction towards the shops.

MR STRYDOM: Yes. So basically what you are saying they were moving in the same direction, is that correct?

MS DLAMINI: That's correct, that is in the same direction.

MR STRYDOM: Now the people that attacked you, did they attack you whilst the lights in the house were off?

MS DLAMINI: There was a light inside although the lights were off, but the light could penetrate because the curtains had already fallen down.

MR STRYDOM: You mean light from outside?

MS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM: Would you be able to identify the attackers?

MS DLAMINI: I could not see their faces well.

MR STRYDOM: How do you know that the person you saw, when you saw the hippo, was one of the people that was part of the attack?

MS DLAMINI: When he went through the kitchen door that's when I was throwing down the blankets moving towards the window. And through the window I could see him going through the gate.

MR STRYDOM: When he was going through the gate, where was the hippo?

MS DLAMINI: As you peep through you will hear the sound and then when you look further you will see that hippo. It was easy to recognise it.

MR STRYDOM: Yes but I want to know, at the time the last attacker left your premises, what was the position of the hippo?

MS DLAMINI: The hippo was at the corner of Barolong Street, moving.

MR STRYDOM: And at that stage this one person was the only attacker which you could see whilst you were peeping through the window.

MS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give a description of the hippo you saw?

MS DLAMINI: Do you want me to describe it or to tell you how it looked like?

MR STRYDOM: Ja. Yes, colour, can you give the colour firstly?

MS DLAMINI: It was dark green in colour.

MR STRYDOM: The lights of that vehicle, was it on or not?

MS DLAMINI: The lights were dim.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see any occupants in the vehicle?

MS DLAMINI: I did not look inside that hippo. I only saw it as it was passing by.

MR STRYDOM: I want to refer you to your statement, which statement was taken for purposes of the Goldstone Commission. Chairperson, it's already been handed in as an exhibit of the bundle of statements of witnesses. Let me just get the number. DG, page 41, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say page 41?

MR STRYDOM: Page 49. I said 41, Chairperson, but apparently it's page 49. Chairperson, I still have a problem with the numbering, but that statement ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR STRYDOM: ...(indistinct) Dlamini. That's right. That's the statement I want to refer the witness to. Statement - it's an unsigned statement according to what I have here.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR BERGER: It's the second last one, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The second last one.

MR BERGER: But Chairperson, the copy that I've got - I don't know if it's on yours as well - has got the name Flora Dlamini crossed out and it is unsigned.

MR STRYDOM: That's the statement I'm referring to. I'll ask the witness to identify the statement by reading certain portions. It may assist the witness to identify the statement. Chairperson, unfortunately that will be the only way to identify, if I read certain portions so that she can identify the statement, unless she can tell me that she admits this statement is hers. I'm not sure if she can read the statement by herself. Do you have a copy of the statement in front of you?

MS DLAMINI: No, I don't. It is written in English, I won't be able to read it.

MR STRYDOM: I will read certain portions to you and if you identify - if you're happy that it's your statement just please indicate so. It's states

"I'm willing to give evidence to the Goldstone Commission, but do not want my name or exact address published. I feel that I might be attacked if it becomes known that I gave evidence."

MS DLAMINI: I don't know that.

MR STRYDOM

"Before the 17th of June 1992 I was employed as a temporary worker in Meyerton."

Is that correct or not?

MS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM

"During the attack I sustained injuries

which meant that I could not go to work."

MS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM

"I now also have to look after mydeceased daughter's child."

Is that correct?

MS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM

"On the night of the 17th of June1992 I was at home with other members of my family."

MS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM

"It was my mother, myself, my daughter

aged 21, a second daughter aged 14, my four-year-old son and my daughter's two month old baby."

Is that correct information?

MS DLAMINI: Yes, my granddaughter is two months old.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what counsel wants to find out is what he has just read to you, is that information correct according to you?

MS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR STR]DOM: I also want to put to you it seems to me this is in fact a statement of you. Would you admit that?

MS DLAMINI: Yes, I do.

MR STRYDOM: Without reading the full statement I want to put to you then that you go ahead to state what happened there, and it correlates with what you testified here today to some extent. But I want to refer you to a portion starting at paragraph 12, and tell me if it's correct.

"One of the men at the door then said in Zulu 'Let's go'."

MS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM

"As far as I can recall the man who had stabbed me mother ..."

It should probably read "my mother".

".. was already out of the room at that stage."

MS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM

"The last one then also went out and all five of the men left the house."

Is that correct?

MS DLAMINI: The last one had already stabbed us then.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but I assume it's after that.

"Then the last one then also went out and all five of the men left the house."

Is that correct?

MS DLAMINI: Yes, after the last one has stabbed my daughter they all went out.

MR STRYDOM: And then it's written here

"I peeped through the window and saw two of them running up the road."

Is that correct?

MS DLAMINI: No, there was only one.

MR STRYDOM: So there must be a mistake here in the statement.

MS DLAMINI: Yes, concerning the second person.

MR STRYDOM: Before I read further. After that person ran away, did you start giving attention to the injured people in the house?

MS DLAMINI: After peeping through the window I went under the bed to look for those who had been injured during the attack.

MR STRYDOM: Paragraph 13 reads

"I then lifted up my eldest daughter and called her name several times."

INTERPRETER: May I please ask Mr Strydom to repeat that portion, please.

MR STRYDOM

"I then lifted up my eldest daughter and called her name several times."

MS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM

"She only moaned weakly a few times and then her head fell sideways. I think that she was then dead."

MS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM: I don't want to read all this, to avoid the unpleasantness, so I'm not going to read paragraph 14. Would you just state then what did you do in the house. But the next paragraph reads, it's paragraph 15

"As I was picking up the baby I heard the sound of a hippo coming up Lekwa Street from the direction of Mosheshwe Street."

MS DLAMINI: I don't know that.

MR STRYDOM: What's wrong with that portion of the statement?

MS DLAMINI: That I heard the sound of the Hippo in Mosheshwe Street. That one I don't know.

MR STRYDOM: Didn't you hear the sound of the hippo before you saw it?

MS DLAMINI: That's the one that I heard after we have been attacked. That's the only one that I heard.

MR STRYDOM: So after you have been attacked you heard a hippo, is that correct?

MS DLAMINI: Yes, that is the one that I saw when I peeped through the window.

MR STRYDOM: It goes further to state

"I looked through the window and saw it passing the house."

MS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: This was very soon after the men had left the house.

MS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM

"In my view the people in the hippo ought to have been able to see the men moving up Lekwa Street."

MS DLAMINI: I don't know.

MR STRYDOM

"I did not look out of the window in order to see where the hippo went or whether

it took any action."

Is that correct?

MS DLAMINI: I don't understand that portion, Sir.

MR STRYDOM: After you heard the hippo, did you go and have a look to see what was making the sound?

MS DLAMINI: I was already peeping through the window because I was looking at that last person who just went through the gate.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but - sorry, there was something else.

MS DLAMINI: That is when I heard the sound, but my intention was just to look for that person, that is the last person. That's when I heard this sound of the hippo.

MR STRYDOM: The question is, did you see the hippo?

MS DLAMINI: Yes, I did.

MR STRYDOM: And did you see - well, you already testified you saw the direction in which the hippo was driving.

MS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Now can you give any explanation why it is written in the statement that

"I did not look out of the window in order to see where the hippo went or whether it took any action."

MS DLAMINI: When a person is taking a statement from you you will never know whether he's writing what you are telling him because as you are writing now I don't know whether you're writing what I'm telling you.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, in fairness to the witness the statement says

"I looked through the window and saw it passing the house. This was very soon after the men had left the house."

Earlier on in the statement it says that the hippo came up Lekwa Street from the direction of Mosheshwe Street. If one considers what the witness has already told the Committee this morning, there's no inconsistency in that because her evidence is that the hippo - she saw the hippo through the window, passing up Lekwa Street in the direction of the shops. By implication it must have come from the direction of Mosheshwe Street which is one street below. So what my learned friend puts as an inconsistency in fact is not inconsistent at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't that a matter for argument ...(indistinct). Which statement - you're referring ...(indistinct)

MR BERGER: The last sentence of the paragraph. I just enquire about that.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.

CHAIRPERSON

"I did not look out of the window in order to see where the hippo went or whether it took any action."

MR BERGER: Which is still what she's saying. She said she ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR STRYDOM: But Chairperson, I've read the full paragraph to her, but I will leave it at that. The point I want to make I'll just put it directly to her.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR STRYDOM: Ja. What I want to put to you, Ms Dlamini, is that according to the statement you did not see the hippo and an attacker or attackers at the same time, but according to your evidence you gave here today you saw at least the last attacker leaving your house and then at the same time saw the hippo. That's the difference I want to point out.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, and that's my objection. It's unfair because it - the statement does not say that the witness did not see the hippo and the last attacker at the same time. It does not say that.

CHAIRPERSON: What is his ...(indistinct)

MR BERGER: Her response was that she doesn't read English, so ...

MR STRYDOM: So what I want to put to you is I cannot argue that your house has been attacked, there's no argument about that, but my instructions from some of the attackers are that they did not work with or came in close proximity of hippos or military or police vehicles. So your evidence that you saw an attacker and a hippo at the same time is not correct.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand the applicant's case it's that once they were carrying on the attack they did not see any police vehicle in the township.

MR STRYDOM: That is the case and that's what I'm putting to the witness that - to the extent that her evidence is contrary to that instruction, she's not telling the truth.

MS DLAMINI: When you say I'm not telling the truth that's concerning what, Sir?

MR STRYDOM: That you saw an attacker and a hippo at the same time.

MS DLAMINI: That is correct, that's what I saw.

MR STRYDOM: What I'm suggesting to you is that you saw the attackers and some time passed and afterwards you saw a hippo or vehicles of the kind.

MS DLAMINI: That is not correct.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give any indication of the time when you saw the hippo?

MS DLAMINI: That is after we had been stabbed. The last of the attackers was going through the gate. As I was peeping through the window I saw the hippo passing by and that's when I went back to hide myself and attend to those who had been injured.

MR STRYDOM: You just referred to the last of the attackers, was it only one attacker that left when he saw the hippo or two as - let's just leave it at that, or two?

MS DLAMINI: I saw one who was leaving through the gate.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chair, no more questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. Yes, Mr Lowies?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LOWIES: Ms Dlamini, in total, how many attackers did you see that night? Can you give us an estimate?

MS DLAMINI: According to my estimation there could have been around 2 000 of all the attackers that I saw that night.

MR LOWIES: When you saw the hippo ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say 2 000 or 200?

MS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR LOWIES: ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR LOWIES: When you saw the hippo, during that time and after that time, that's now after you saw the hippo, did you see any attackers? It's not clear.

MS DLAMINI: Do you mean I saw the hippo before I saw the attackers?

MR LOWIES: No, I'm asking, I'm asking the following question. You now saw the hippo, whilst looking at the hippo or whilst seeing it, did you also see attackers? And the second part is, and after that did you also see attackers ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Why don't allow her to answer the first question.

MS DLAMINI: After the hippo I did not see the attackers.

MR LOWIES: ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR LOWIES: Whilst seeing the hippo did you see any attackers?

MS DLAMINI: I did not see them again.

MR LOWIES: Were your attackers already in the house when you saw the hippo, or did they already leave?

MS DLAMINI: The last of the attackers was leaving through the gate.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, just for clarity. When you are saying the last of the attackers was leaving through the gate, do you mean the attackers who were in your house or do you mean the attackers as a whole, even those who did not enter your house?

MS DLAMINI: That is the last one who was left behind in the house.

MR LOWIES: Can you dispute it that the hippo did not see any attackers?

MS DLAMINI: Well, I have never been inside the hippo, so I don't know whether you are able to see when you are inside or not.

MR LOWIES: I want to put it to you that if there was a hippo it was not aware of the attackers and the attackers were also not aware of the hippo.

INTERPRETER: May I please ask Mr Lowies to repeat that statement again.

MR LOWIES: I want to put it to you, if there was a hippo then the hippo did not see the attackers.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, on what basis can ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And the attackers didn't see the hippo either.

Ma'am, what's being put to you is the following proposition. If there was a hippo, the hippo didn't see the attackers and the attackers didn't see the hippo either.

MS DLAMINI: That is why I'm saying that I've never been inside of that hippo. I don't know whether when you are inside you are able to see people who are outside, through that window, dark window.

MR LOWIES: My clients didn't see any hippos.

MS DLAMINI: I don't know.

MR LOWIES: I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOWIES

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ma'am.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PRETORIUS: How many people did enter your house, Ms Dlamini?

MS DLAMINI: Those that I saw could be seven because the other two were inside and the others were just standing at the door.

MS PRETORIUS: No further questions, thank you, Mr Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER: When you talk of a hippo, is this an army vehicle, or a police vehicle?

MS DLAMINI: This hippo is used by SAPs. You will see them protruding through the roof.

MS TANZER: So according to my client's version, Mr Nosenga, when he says the police assisted in the attack, is that what you witnessed that night?

CHAIRPERSON: Ma'am, she didn't say that, did she?

MS TANZER: I'm asking her the question, Mr Commissioner.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MS TANZER: I'll rephrase. Mr Nosenga gave evidence that he was part of the attackers that attacked Boipatong and that they were assisted by the SAP Police in the attack. Does that correlate in any way to what you saw or were a witness to on the night of the attack?

MS DLAMINI: Well I cannot say because it was following that person. Therefore, I don't know, I cannot comment on that.

MS TANZER: Thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Da Silva?

MR DA SILVA: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

MR MAPOMA: I have no questions, Chairperson. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Any re-examination?

MR BERGER: None, thank you Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: No, no questions, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: No questions, Chairperson.

MR LAX: No questions, thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ma'am, you may stand down.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR BERGER: Chairperson, the next witness was supposed to be Ms Diana Manyika, but apparently she's not here today. Could we have a very short adjournment just to consider our position and perhaps come in and speak to you in chambers on what our position is?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR BERGER: We are going to have to see what we can do, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Shall we then rise until we hear from counsel in chambers.

MR BERGER: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, would you just record the position.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, as I indicated in the Committee room, the victims have only one further witness whom they wish to call and that is Ms Diana Manyika. Unfortunately she is at school at the moment, but we have taken steps for her to be made aware that her evidence is required tomorrow morning, and we have asked members of the community to ensure that she is here before 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. They have undertaken to do so. With your leave, Chairperson, we would ask that the matter be stood down until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Strydom, do you have any objection if this matter were ...?

MR STRYDOM: No objection.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: I have no objection.

MS PRETORIUS: No objection.

MR DA SILVA: I have no objection.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. Yes, Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No objection, Sir.

MS TANZER: No objection.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. Okay, very well, this matter will stand down until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock when we will hear the evidence of Diana Manyika. Mr Greeff and Mr Chaka, will you just call them in please.

MR LOWIES: Chairman, regarding Mr Greeff, I had been requested to request you that he be excused and I forgot to do so. He's got a business, a butchery apparently and he's got a crisis there. Not that I'm acting for him, I think I was the first person out of the room.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Chaka, the victims desire to call one more witness, Diana Manyika, who is presently at school and will only be available to give evidence tomorrow morning, and because of that this matter will then have to stand down until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock when we will hear the evidence of Diana Manyika. Do you understand that?

MR CHAKA: I understand. I don't have any problem with that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yew, very well. These proceedings are then adjourned until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS