Amnesty Hearings

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning ladies and gentlemen. I take it you are ready to start?

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, before we proceed, today being the 19th of January 1999, may I take the liberty of handing over as Evidence Leader to Mr Zuko Mapoma, who is the new Evidence Leader, I will still remain on to assist the Committee where necessary.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Prior for your assistance, yes. The applicants are still busy with their case. Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the next witness or applicant I am calling is Bhekinkosi Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom, are the applicants who were not here yesterday, here today?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the majority of the people are here today. The two people from Kroonstad prison, are apparently on their way. We just had a, my Attorney just phoned the prison and they said they left some time ago, so I expect them to be here any moment.

That is Timothy Stalls Mazibuko and Jack Mbele.

CHAIRPERSON: From which prison are they, from Kroonstad? Now what about Magubane and Mkwanazi?

MR STRYDOM: As far as Mkwanazi is concerned, I have absolutely nothing to say about him, he was in custody. Apparently he was released. There was no further contact with him since the previous hearing, and I can't state anything about his whereabouts at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Magubane?

MR STRYDOM: Mr Magubane's situation is a bit difficult because I again, personally, phoned the Klerksdorp prison who said that the last time he was there, was when he was booked out to come here on the 3rd of July last year, and he was sent to the Vereeniging prison, but according to the Vereeniging prison, he is not there.

I don't know if he was released at a certain time, I cannot image so because he is not out on bail on the criminal case in the Boipatong matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Or he may simply have disappeared into the system?

MR STRYDOM: It seems so, but we are following that up.

CHAIRPERSON: What about those applicants who were not here yesterday, Moses Mthembu, Sipho Buthelezi, Petrus Mdiniso, Mxoliseni Mkhize, Richard Dlamini and Paulos Mbatha, are they here?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the following people are here today: Moses Mthembu, Petrus Mdiniso, Paulos Mbatha and Richard Dlamini.

The people who aren't here ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mxoliseni Mkhize and Sipho Buthelezi?

MR STRYDOM: That is indeed so, and Mr Tshabangu, but he already testified. He is also not here.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he here yesterday?

MR STRYDOM: No Chairperson, he wasn't here yesterday either.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me get a note of that. His name is Mlupeki Tshabangu, yes. Shall I make a note of that? Now, these four applicants who are here today, who were not here yesterday, what is their explanation for not being here yesterday?

MR STRYDOM: They told me that on the previous occasion, only the date was mentioned, but not the venue. My Attorney last week made contact with Mr Tshabangu, he is the only person with a telephone, to inform the other people about the venue.

Mr Tshabangu is not here, but the people inform me that they did not get the message that the resumed hearing will take place at the same venue, and they were uncertain as to where it was going to be and that is why they weren't here.

CHAIRPERSON: How did they know that it is here today?

MR STRYDOM: The people that were here yesterday, went out yesterday to notify them.

CHAIRPERSON: What steps did they take to find out from their Attorneys where the hearing was going to be?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, they did not contact me or my Attorney as far as I am aware. I can just mention that these people, they don't have telephones.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. Moses Mthembu, Moses Mthembu is here? Petrus Mdiniso, Richard Dlamini, Paulos Mbatha?

What steps did you take to ensure, to find out where the hearings were going to be held?

MR MTHEMBU: I am Moses Mthembu, as a person who is an employee, I was expecting to be told just where the venue would be. I did want to know, but I could not find out, and even where we stay, we do not have a telephone. I had assumed that the lawyer, our Attorney, would actually come to us to inform us, but I was determined and I was prepared to come here. I am very sorry.

MR MDINISO: I had expected that the Attorney normally tells us just where the venue would be, but this did not happen this time. Also the reason that we do not have a telephone at home, we could not contact him, and I did not come because I did not have knowledge where the venue was. I do beg your pardon.

MR DLAMINI: I am Richard Dlamini, the same thing happened to me as well. I was prepared to come, but I did not receive information about the venue.

CHAIRPERSON: What is amusing, I see you smiling?

MR DLAMINI: I am sorry for not showing up yesterday, I had thought that our Attorney would come to inform us about the venue, but he did not come.

MR MBATHA: I am Paulos Mbatha. I beg your pardon, I was away at home in kwaZulu Natal and came back on Sunday and our car broke down along the way, and I arrived late in Johannesburg.

CHAIRPERSON: For the record, the explanation for not being present here, given by Mthembu, Mdiniso and Dlamini is not acceptable.

You are the applicants in these matters, it is your responsibility to find out where the hearings are, not that of your Attorney. If your Attorney doesn't contact you, you must make every effort to make sure that you find out where the venue is because otherwise this interferes with your colleagues who are in custody and in whose interest this matter was be expedited.

It has been going on for some time. Whilst you may not necessarily be responsible for the delay yesterday, but I think it ought to be mentioned, that in future, you've got to take every effort to ensure that you are here so that your application can be proceeded with. Do you understand that?

Yes, I accept the explanation by Mbatha that the car broke down, and therefore he could not be here yesterday. Mr Strydom, you may proceed.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson, I am calling the next applicant then, Mr Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: In view of the fact that it is probably unbearably hot, please feel free to take off your coats.

How are we going to deal with Magubane and Mkwanazi?

MR STRYDOM: In the light of the fact that they are legally represented, I will ask that the hearing continues in their absence, I am sure that they will be here very soon.

I was referring actually to the people from Kroonstad.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I mean the others Magubane and Mkwanazi.

It seems to me that perhaps what we - we propose proceeding with the applications of those who are present here and if we come to the end of the hearings, and both Magubane and Mkwanazi are not here, we would propose to struck their applications off the roll at that stage.

What is your attitude Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I will go along with that because there may be an explanation, so I would not like that the applications be struck off now, before I get instructions and find out why they are not here. We can only find that out in due course.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, I accept the position.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, what is your attitude?

MR BERGER: We are quite happy with that position Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes very well, we would proceed then. Would you proceed?

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson. I am calling Bhekinkosi Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for the purposes of communication, channel 2 is English, channel 3 is Sotho and channel 4, is Zulu.

Mr Mkhize, what language are you going to speak? Please stand up, please give us your full names?

MR MKHIZE: Bhekinkosi Mkhaklazeni Mkhize.

BHEKINKOSI MKHAKLAZENI MKHIZE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may sit down.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry Chairperson, I noticed that in your application, there is the name Mbekiseni, is that also your name?

MR MKHIZE: No, it is Bhekinkosi.

ADV SIGODI: So the name Mbekiseni, we should scrap?

MR MKHIZE: That is not my name.

CHAIRPERSON: Please raise your voice when you speak so that everybody at the back can hear what you are saying, and please speak slowly and take note that there are Interpreters who interpret what you are saying into English and Sotho, therefore you should also give them an opportunity to interpret what you are saying.

If you do not understand a question, ask them to repeat it for you. Yes Mr Strydom, you may proceed.

EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mkhize, you applied for amnesty and you have filled in a so-called Form 1. I want you to have a look at the document on page 61 of the index.

MR MKHIZE: There is a noise in the headphones.

INTERPRETER: There seems to be an interference in his headphones.

MR LAX: Can the Interpreter just talk?

INTERPRETER: In English or Zulu?

MR LAX: It doesn't matter, just so that we can see, there is obviously something wrong with that headphone.

INTERPRETER: Can anybody hear me?

MR LAX: We can hear you fine, thank you. Can you hear us now, Mr Mkhize?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I can hear you.

MR LAX: Okay.

MR STRYDOM: I was referring to the Form 1, on page 61, 62, 63 and with the annexure on page 64 and 65. Firstly I want you to have a look at your signature on page 63, do you identify your signature?

MR MKHIZE: That is my signature.

MR STRYDOM: Then I want to refer you to the annexure, setting out certain of the answers in more detail. Do you confirm the contents of this document, has it been explained to you?

MR MKHIZE: I think yes, I do, because I signed the document.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what is your standard of education?

MR MKHIZE: Standard 2.

MR STRYDOM: Certain further particulars were asked and you provided your legal advisors with answers and you stand by the answers as contained in the bundle, on page 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74? Has it again been explained to you? Do you confirm the correctness of your answers?

MR MKHIZE: Although I cannot be absolutely certain because I cannot read, but I hope that that is indeed my responses.

MR STRYDOM: Then I want to refer you to the affidavit you have made on page 75, 76, 77, 78 of the bundle. Do you confirm that that is your signature on the last page thereof?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I do.

MR STRYDOM: Are you a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I am.

MR STRYDOM: For how long have you been a member of that party?

MR MKHIZE: I think it is about ten years now, because I joined even before I came to Johannesburg.

MR STRYDOM: Approximately when did you come to Johannesburg, how many years ago?

MR MKHIZE: I came to Johannesburg in 1975.

MR STRYDOM: Where did you come from?

MR MKHIZE: From Mahlabatini.

MR STRYDOM: When you came to Johannesburg, initially where did you stay?

MR MKHIZE: I stayed at Sebokeng hostel.

MR STRYDOM: At a certain stage you moved over to the kwaMadala hostel, when was that?

MR MKHIZE: It was in 1990.

MR STRYDOM: In your affidavit, on page 75 you stated that you moved into the hostel in 1992. Is that date correct or not?

MR MKHIZE: Although I cannot be absolutely certain, I think it was in 1990. What I know is that I moved from Sebokeng hostel into kwaMadala.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you move to kwaMadala hostel?

MR MKHIZE: We were actually chased out of the hostel by the ANC.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know why the ANC chased you out of the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: They attacked us because we were IFP members and because we were also Zulu's and at that time Zulu's were no longer permitted to be in Sebokeng.

MR STRYDOM: Was any of your property damaged whilst you were still in Boipatong, by ANC members?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Can you briefly state what happened?

MR MKHIZE: My fridge and my car were damaged, they were actually burnt, and also my clothing, bedding, household goods were also burnt.

Some they confiscated and some they burnt.

MR STRYDOM: During that time, where did you work?

MR MKHIZE: I used to work at Metal Box.

MR STRYDOM: Are you still employed by Metal Box or not?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you leave your employment there?

MR MKHIZE: I was being sought after, because I was alone there and I decided to flee and leave my employment.

MR STRYDOM: In the kwaMadala hostel, did you hold any leadership position?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: What was your position during 1992?

MR MKHIZE: I was the leader of AmaButho.

MR STRYDOM: Can you just briefly state what does the AmaButho entail.

MR MKHIZE: I was responsible for everything that went on in the AmaButho.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give me examples, what were your principal responsibilities?

MR MKHIZE: I was responsible for the welfare and the well being of AmaButho.

CHAIRPERSON: What you are being asked is to tell us very briefly what you would do as Indunas? What did you do?

MR MKHIZE: At that time, I was the Commander of AmaButho, everything that had to do with AmaButho, was my responsibility. Even when we went to rallies, I would lead the AmaButho in those rallies.

MR STRYDOM: During 1992, could people living in the kwaMadala hostel, move freely to Boipatong and other towns in the Vaal Triangle?

MR MKHIZE: It never used to happen. If you went out, you would have to do so in a group of eight to ten. You could not walk alone because if you actually went alone, you won't return, you will be killed.

MR STRYDOM: What was the hostel residents' attitude towards this situation?

MR MKHIZE: They were very unhappy about the situation, because they could no longer go out to the shops, there was nothing that one was free to do. Even if you wanted to go to town, you were unable to do so.

Some of us were actually taken hostage in town.

MR STRYDOM: In your affidavit on page 76, you make mention of a meeting that took place in the hostel approximately one week before the attack on Boipatong. Can you give us more detail about what happened at this meeting?

MR MKHIZE: At that meeting, that meeting was actually held to discuss the issue of the people who were being killed. I was actually being asked what I was going to do about it, because people were being killed in town.

They had actually come to complain to me, what was I going to do about the situation and they wanted me to advise on what to do.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person by the name of Damara Qunchu?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I know him very well.

MR STRYDOM: During that period, what was his position?

MR MKHIZE: He was my assistant.

MR STRYDOM: As a result of all the complaints and the meeting that was held approximately one week before the attack on Boipatong, what was decided to do about the situation?

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat the question.

MR STRYDOM: You already told the Committee that you as the leader of the AmaButho received all these complaints from the residents and they asked you what are you going to do about it.

The question is, what did you do about it?

MR MKHIZE: Because of the pressure that I was under, I asked them to give me some time because I could see that even my life was threatened, until such time that we took the decision that we should attack, because I could see that people were being attacked and my life was even threatened by the people that I was staying with, because I was now under pressure to act.

MR STRYDOM: And in which manner did you act? What did you do, what did you decide?

MR MKHIZE: I told Qunchu that there is no other way except to attack, because the people are complaining and I also realised that my life was in danger, therefore we should just attack and we agreed about this with Qunchu.

MR STRYDOM: We all know that the attack took place on the 17th of June 1992. When was the, when did you have this discussion with Qunchu?

MR MKHIZE: Although I cannot remember correctly, but it was just a few days before.

I cannot say precisely what the date was.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say your life was in danger, and therefore you decided to tell Qunchu that you better launch an attack, your life was in danger from whom?

MR MKHIZE: The hostel residents from kwaMadala could have attacked me.

MR STRYDOM: After your discussion with Qunchu, did he agree that Boipatong should be attacked?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, he did.

MR STRYDOM: Who was responsible for planning the attack in more detail?

MR MKHIZE: It was myself and Qunchu, but I was the one who had the responsibility of doing it and Qunchu was my assistant. I was his Commander.

MR STRYDOM: Was there any other leaders or senior people responsible for the decision, the decision now to attack Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: No, none.

MR STRYDOM: During the week preceding the attack, was any other leadership structures informed and notified about the decision to attack Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat the question.

MR STRYDOM: I want to know after your decision, your and Qunchu's decision to attack Boipatong, did you take it up with other senior people or other leaders for instance in the IFP?

MR MKHIZE: No. Not even one of them.

MR STRYDOM: Weapons were used during the attack on Boipatong. Can you tell the Committee who was responsible to get the weapons and to distribute the weapons?

MR MKHIZE: I cannot say because it was dark, but I know that I had a firearm and I also know that some other people also had firearms, but I cannot tell who had what weapons.

MR STRYDOM: The question really is, before the attack, to gather weapons, who was responsible to make sure that when the attack comes, that there will be weapons?

MR MKHIZE: We already had weapons.

MR STRYDOM: These weapons, do you have knowledge where they came from?

MR MKHIZE: We used to actually collect money and buy these weapons.

The person who was responsible for actually buying these weapons, was Mr Qunchu.

MR STRYDOM: And these weapons, did they include AK47 rifles?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: On the 17th of June, the attack took place. What I want to know now, what happened just before the attack, what happened in the hostel? How did it come that everybody left the hostel and moved towards Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: We rang an alarm to call everybody to gather at one venue, from where we moved on to launch the attack.

MR STRYDOM: Who rang the alarm?

MR MKHIZE: Even though I would not be in a position to know, it was at night, but I had already instructed that we should go out and launch the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was having this alarm?

MR MKHIZE: That is exactly what I am saying, it was at night, and therefore I am not in the position to say exactly who was ringing the alarm.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there anyone in the hostel perhaps who was charged with blowing this trumpet?

MR MKHIZE: I moved from one hostel apartment to the next, informing people.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any particular person who used to go around using this trumpet or alarm to ring it so as to inform people to come together?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, there was one person responsible for that duty, but he was not available that day if I still remember very well.

MR LAX: Just, if you will allow me Mr Strydom, sorry, everyone talks about this alarm. What exactly was it? Some people talk figuratively about a trumpet. Just explain to us what kind of alarm was it, how did it work? Was it electronic, was it a siren? What was it?

MR MKHIZE: We have a trumpet and we also had something that looked like a speaker. Those are the things that we used. The speaker would sound like an alarm and this would inform people about a gathering.

MR LAX: So it was like a loudhailer from the way you are demonstrating with your hands, that had an alarm sound?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: And then in addition to that, there was a trumpet, an actual trumpet?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, we also had a trumpet, but on that day, I cannot be certain as to whether we used the trumpet or not, or whether we used the other system.

MR LAX: Sorry, you didn't give someone a specific instruction to go and sound the alarm, or did you?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR LAX: Who made the decision that the people should be called at a certain time and that the alarm should be sounded?

MR MKHIZE: I did that.

MR LAX: So then you did give someone an instruction to do that?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: This alarm, is it called a Megaphone with an alarm at the back of the Megaphone?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. Even though I would not know exactly, but it is an alarm system, you can carry it around and speak through it.

MR STRYDOM: It is one of those instruments where you can speak into it and you press the button and you speak into it, and it enhances the sound?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, exactly.

MR STRYDOM: At the back of this instrument, there is an alarm. You put that alarm on, the alarm will sound through this microphone or the speaker actually, through the speaker?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: When this alarm went off, let me ask you this way, normally when the alarm goes off, what will the residents of the hostel do?

MR MKHIZE: We used to use it when we were going to rallies or attending urgent meetings.

MR STRYDOM: Will the people gather when they hear the sound?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Where will they gather?

MR MKHIZE: There is a stadium inside the hostel, at the kwaMadala hostel, that is where we used to gather for meetings.

MR STRYDOM: On this particular night, did the people come to the stadium?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, they did.

MR STRYDOM: Were you at the stadium when the people arrived?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I was present.

MR STRYDOM: Did you address the people as they were coming in the stadium?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I did.

MR STRYDOM: What did you tell them?

MR MKHIZE: I told them there was nothing else to do, except for attacking.

MR STRYDOM: Attacking which place?

MR MKHIZE: Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: Did the people initially arrive with weapons at the stadium, or not?

MR MKHIZE: Some of them were not armed, some were armed.

Some suggested that we wait for them, because they were still going to fetch their arms.

MR STRYDOM: And the women and children, what happened to them?

MR MKHIZE: We told them to go back to their houses, because it was not necessary for them to be there, we only wanted males.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from the arms, did the people wear any identifying marks or things like that?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. We used to use head bands.

MR STRYDOM: What was the purpose of the head bands?

MR MKHIZE: The purpose was for us to be able to identify one another.

MR STRYDOM: Still there at the stadium, when you said that Boipatong should be attacked, did you give any detail as to exactly how Boipatong should be attacked, or will be attacked?

MR MKHIZE: No. I cannot remember very well, but yes, I remember that I indicated that we are going to enter Boipatong. Nothing else was going to be done, except to attack.

We were aware of the existence of the Defence Unit members at Boipatong, and these are the people who were responsible for burning people.

MR STRYDOM: Who led the people out of the hostel en route to Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: It was myself.

MR STRYDOM: Were you armed?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: What kind of arm did you have?

MR MKHIZE: I had an AK.

MR STRYDOM: Now, I want you to tell now in your own words what happened just prior entering Boipatong.

MR MKHIZE: When we arrived, we waited for others to arrive and thereafter we entered.

There were many of us and some of us had been left behind, but we waited for them and when they arrived, we then got entry into Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: Did you give any further instructions at that stage?

MR MKHIZE: I cannot remember very well, but the only instruction was that we should now enter, because we were going to fight.

We were tired of these people, we were dying every day, we were being killed, and we had to go and attack.

MR STRYDOM: In your own mind, you say that you wanted to attack and the people wanted to attack Boipatong, can you describe what you thought, what kind of attack would take place?

MR MKHIZE: Would you please repeat the question.

MR STRYDOM: You testified that you were going to attack Boipatong. In your own mind, what was your decision, in which manner were you going to attack Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: We were going to avenge the death of many of our people, and we too, had to do the same attack and kill.

We just went there to avenge the death of our fellow members.

MR STRYDOM: In your own mind, who would be the victims of the attack?

MR MKHIZE: What I had in my mind, was that people who were attacking us, were the Self Defence Units. We had already heard that they were patrolling the streets at night, and these are the people that we wanted to attack and kill, because they were the ones who were burning people.

MR STRYDOM: These Self Defence Units, do you know at that stage, who was actually supporting them or responsible for them to be established?

MR MKHIZE: I am not in the position to say, I don't want to tell a lie. I have no idea, but yes, we know that the people who were in charge of the township, were the Self Defence Units.

MR STRYDOM: How well, at that time, did you know Boipatong, the township itself?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I knew Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: Did you know the name of the streets?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not know the names very well. The one street that I knew, was only one Mzimvubu and Majola I think. That was the street that I knew very well, not the others.

It was a township where I used to catch a bus, the form of transport to work.

MR STRYDOM: I want you to explain how Boipatong was entered on that night.

MR MKHIZE: As I have already explained, we just gained entry into the township, but I cannot remember what street we used to gain entry.

I did explain that I do not know the streets quite well.

MR STRYDOM: Can I ask you this way, did you enter from Vanderbijl Park's side or the factory side?

MR MKHIZE: From the main road from Vanderbijl Park, that is the direction that we took, and we proceeded towards the township.

MR STRYDOM: That main road, is that called Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

MR MKHIZE: I think so. Even though I do not know the name quite well, but I am referring to the big road with the traffic lights. The one that is going to Sebokeng.

MR STRYDOM: Tell me, would you be in a position to explain to the Committee you have followed in Boipatong itself, after you entered Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. I know the route that we took.

MR STRYDOM: Would you be able to explain the route if you looked at a map? Would you be able, if you look at a map, to explain the route, or won't you be able to?

MR MKHIZE: I don't know, maybe I will be able to identify the route.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I think the Exhibit number is J, I just want to make sure, I just want to get my Exhibits at the back.

I am going to show you a map of the Boipatong, if you just want to orientate yourself, and look at the map. Do you understand the map?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Just to make sure that you understand the map, Frikkie Meyer Boulevard is to the left of this map, to the side, and the hostel is further to the left.

Do you follow that?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I do follow that.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know the portion of the township called Slovo Park?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you see Slovo Park on the right hand side of this map?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, now I think I see where it is.

MR STRYDOM: During the course of the attack, did you go into Slovo Park?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, we did.

MR STRYDOM: We have already heard evidence of two groups, is that indeed so that there was a split up at a certain stage and two groups were formed?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Were you leading one of the groups?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Who led the other group?

MR MKHIZE: I think it was Qunchu because I never got to see him again. He was not in my group certainly.

MR STRYDOM: Yes. With reference to Exhibit J, can you state the approximate route that was followed by your group?

MR MKHIZE: I think we were further down and the other group was further up. We took the downward direction and there were no other people further down, except for ourselves.

MR STRYDOM: Did your group follow a route towards Slovo Park?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Shortly after the two groups entered Boipatong, what happened if anything?

MR MKHIZE: I cannot remember quite well, but when we arrived near the shops, we came across the Self Defence Unit members from whence we started exchanging gunfire and they ended up fleeing.

MR STRYDOM: Did you use your AK47 to shoot?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Which direction did you shoot?

MR MKHIZE: I shot towards the Self Defence Unit members.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know if you hit anybody by shooting?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not have information to that effect, but I can assume that people must have been shot because it was at night. Yes, we did see some shadows.

MR STRYDOM: After that first shooting incident, what happened? What did you do with your group?

MR MKHIZE: We proceeded on towards the downward direction, running after them, and they fled towards Slovo Park.

MR STRYDOM: Did you go into any houses at any stage whilst you were at Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, some people got into houses, but I did not because we were making sure that some of our own, are not attacked from behind, so we had to remain behind.

MR STRYDOM: Did you personally see anybody who was attacked and killed or injured?

MR MKHIZE: No. No. I only discovered the following morning, that there were many people who were really injured.

MR STRYDOM: Who was responsible for breaking all those windows in the township?

MR MKHIZE: I would say some of the people in our group, did that. It was damaging and damaging all the way.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see any person or anyone of the attackers, in possession of any goods, stolen goods or things like that?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I only - well, I can say I did not see them quite well, but I only learnt the following day because when we got into people's apartments the following day at the hostel, we learnt that some people brought home stolen property, but they had hidden some of these.

That was not our instruction and that was not my instruction.

MR STRYDOM: You refer now to instruction, can you just tell us more about the instruction you gave during the course of that night?

MR MKHIZE: The instruction was that we should go and attack and kill and that is all. We were meant to kill the people who were killing us all the time.

MR STRYDOM: When was this instruction given?

MR MKHIZE: The instruction came out when we left the hostel for Boipatong. I indicated that we had no alternative. We had to avenge.

MR STRYDOM: Approximately how long did this attack take place, before your group left the township again?

MR MKHIZE: I would not be certain, but I think it could have been one and a half hours to two hours, but it was not a very long time. That is just but an estimation.

MR STRYDOM: During this period that the attack took place, did you see any military or police vehicles in the township?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not see any police or military vehicle, except for the one vehicle that we saw on our way out from the township.

This vehicle was coming from the Vanderbijl direction. That is the only vehicle that I can recall.

MR STRYDOM: Would that include Slovo Park, did you see any vehicles in Slovo Park, military or police vehicles?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR STRYDOM: Before the attack was there any discussions with any police or military people, to assist you and the other attackers during the attack?

MR MKHIZE: How could we have invited the police whilst we were on our way to attack and kill people? The police were obviously against that and therefore we could not have invited them to be part of us.

MR STRYDOM: After the attack, did you re-enter the hostel at the main gate?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: You made reference to certain goods that were found in the hostel afterwards. What happened to those goods, stolen goods?

MR MKHIZE: I did indicate that I only heard that there are some stolen goods, but I was not able to point them out. We only heard about this, and we moved around, looking for these stolen goods, but we were not able to find any.

Some of the people had burnt some of these stolen goods. I am not in the position to say, therefore, that I found a particular item in a particular house or apartment. It was at night, and there were so many people.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know who gave the instruction that stolen goods should be burnt?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR STRYDOM: I know not of anyone. I don't think it could have been anyone, except that they on their own, may have decided that if I happen to see this, I will not be in agreement with it.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Themba Khoza, as far as you know, was he aware of the attack prior to the attack?

MR MKHIZE: No, he knew nothing. Khoza does not reside here, he would only come once to deliver a message or informing us about a meeting, but he does not reside here.

In some instances, we would go and report to him what was developing, but he knew nothing and he could not have condoned this attack.

MR STRYDOM: Afterwards, during any meeting that could have taken place, did Mr Themba Khoza in your presence, tell the residents to burn the looted or the stolen goods?

MR MKHIZE: No. He did not instruct anyone to that effect, except that maybe he might have told them in my absence, but I do not recall at any instance, him informing the residents to burn all the stolen property.

The one thing that I remember him saying was that the police are present and we should cooperate with them, we should not fight them.

MR STRYDOM: After - let me ask you in this way - you testified that you heard later on that a certain amount of people were killed in the township, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Did you expect that any amount of people could be killed on that particular night?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: In retrospect, thinking back now, how do you feel about the whole situation that so many innocent people got killed?

MR MKHIZE: I felt very bad after the incident, because I discovered later that some of the people who died, were not necessarily the people who were attacking us.

Some of the people who were really attacking us, escaped unscathed. People who were really involved or responsible, fled and that made me feel bad. That is why I am before this Committee today, to seek amnesty. I feel very sorry because we did not manage to get all the people who were responsible for us being attacked.

MR STRYDOM: On the night of the attack, was Mr Vanana Zulu, Prince Vanana Zulu, was he present?

MR MKHIZE: No. If I am not mistaken, he had gone home. I am not sure whether that was the first or the second week that he was absent.

What actually led to us to launching the attack, was because he was against us launching that attack and he wanted to actually discuss the matter with the township residents, and that is why we decided to launch the attack in his absence.

That is when we actually got the opportunity to be able to launch that attack.

MR STRYDOM: A person by the name of Victor Keswa, I think his nickname is Katisi, was he there that night of the attack?

MR MKHIZE: No, he was not.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, that last answer was not translated.

INTERPRETER: I apologise.

CHAIRPERSON: Repeat the answer.

MR MKHIZE: I said Mr Keswa was absent. I cannot recall whether he was in hospital or in prison.

MR STRYDOM: You gave evidence in your defence during a criminal trial, and you denied that you know anything about the attack. Why did you do that during the trial?

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat the question.

MR STRYDOM: At the criminal trial, you denied that you have any knowledge whatsoever about the attack. Why did you do that?

MR MKHIZE: I think that was because of the situation at the trial, I did not want to be convicted.

MR STRYDOM: I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Are there any questions from the (indistinct) side, Ms Pretorius?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PRETORIUS: As the Chair pleases. I would just like to know Mr Mkhize, you say you left your job because you were all alone, what did you mean by that?

MR MKHIZE: There was no other Zulu person there, or anybody else who belonged to the IFP. I was just the only one.

There was no other IFP member or anybody who also came from kwaZulu Natal. Therefore there was no one to protect me. The only thing I could do, was to flee.

MS PRETORIUS: What were you scared of at the time, at your employment, who were the people you were working with?

MR MKHIZE: All the employees at Metal Box, were ANC members. I was the only Inkatha member.

MS PRETORIUS: You would not move freely in the Vaal Triangle, you had to be a group of eight or ten when you went out. If you were alone, you would be killed. Who would kill you?

MR MKHIZE: It was the ANC members.

MS PRETORIUS: In Boipatong, you say that you do not know who was in charge of the SDU's. I think the question is not the person, but who was the organisation who was in charge of the SDU's?

MR MKHIZE: I do not have knowledge, but what I know is that the SDU's were ANC people. That is what I know.

MS PRETORIUS: When Katisi or Victor Keswa was in hospital, was he also in custody at the same time?

MR MKHIZE: That is the period I was referring to, that I am not certain whether he was in hospital or in prison. I am not sure.

MS PRETORIUS: No, the question is, even when he was in hospital, was he in custody at the time?

MR MKHIZE: I think so.

MS PRETORIUS: I have no further question, thank you Mr Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Da Silva?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DA SILVA: May it please you Mr Chairman. Do you know a gentleman called Daniel Mabote, or Themba Mabote?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Did he participate in this attack?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, he did.

MR DA SILVA: I understand from the evidence of the other applicants that after the attack, directly after the attack, a group of people gathered in a veld west of Boipatong, between Boipatong and Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, is that correct? That was immediately before the group crossed over Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

MR MKHIZE: I think there was a group that did meet there.

MR DA SILVA: Do you remember if Mr Themba Mabote was armed?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, he was armed.

MR DA SILVA: Do you recall what type of weapon he had with him?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: At the criminal trial, Mr Holi Bajozi testified that Themba Mabote fired in the direction of a military vehicle. Did you see that happen?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not remember.

MR DA SILVA: I do not have any further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Ma'am?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER: Are you aware of a resident in the hostel by the name of Andries Nosenga.

MR MAPOMA: Excuse me Ma'am, maybe if you can place yourself on record. If you may place yourself on record.

MS TANZER: I do apologise. My name of Goldie Tanzer. I am an Attorney at law and I am representing I think the 17th applicant in this matter, Andries Matanzima Nosenga.

Should I repeat the question? Are you aware or did you know a resident at the kwaMadala hostel by the name of Andries Nosenga?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not know him.

MS TANZER: So then you wouldn't know whether he took part in this Boipatong attack?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not know because I don't even know him, so I won't know even if he was present.

MS TANZER: You said that you felt that your life was threatened. In what way was your life threatened in the hostel, prior to the attack?

MR MKHIZE: I did explain that the residents could have attacked me. The people I lived with at the hostel, nobody else.

MS TANZER: Were you receiving personal threats of any kind?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I was.

MS TANZER: By how many residents, by everybody, by one, by two?

MR MKHIZE: It was the residents. I cannot point out specific individuals, but it was the residents who were complaining about the attacks that were carried out on them.

MS TANZER: In what way were they threatening your life? You said that they were threatening your life. What did they intend to do to you, what did they say they were going to do to you?

MR MKHIZE: What I was explaining was that I felt that my life was in danger, I could have been killed at any time.

MS TANZER: Where did you get the weapons from?

MR MKHIZE: I did explain that the person who was responsible for it, was Mr Qunchu. He had knowledge of where the weapons came from, but we actually collected money to buy those weapons.

MS TANZER: From who was the money collected to buy the weapons?

MR MKHIZE: We, the residents of kwaMadala hostel, used to pay.

MS TANZER: So you obviously weren't aware from where the weapons were bought, who they were bought from?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not have knowledge of that.

MS TANZER: Is it not correct that two meetings actually took place prior to the attack? In fact one meeting took place about two weeks before the attack in which the anger was expressed and then a meeting took place about two or three days before the attack, in which the attack was planned?

MR MKHIZE: I would not dispute that, because there were many meetings that were held, where people were complaining.

A number of meetings were called, because of the situation. Whether there were two or three or even more than that, I cannot recall.

MS TANZER: At any of these meetings, were any policemen present?

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat the question.

MS TANZER: At any of these meetings, were any police or military present, at these meetings that were held?

MR MKHIZE: The police would not attend those meetings. We would not invite the police when we were actually planning to launch an attack on people.

MS TANZER: When the siren rang, did the people all come, the residents come wearing their head bands, or did they put them on at the stadium?

MR MKHIZE: I told them that they should go and fetch their head bands.

MS TANZER: And when you made your way to Boipatong, did you go by foot or was there any kind of vehicle in which you - accompanied you?

MR MKHIZE: We walked.

MS TANZER: And on your way, you met no policemen whatsoever, or any military?

MR MKHIZE: No. I did mention that we did not meet any policemen. We saw the police when we were actually leaving the area. I cannot say whether they were police or military personnel, but the only people we saw, we actually saw them when we were returning from Boipatong.

MS TANZER: At the meeting prior to the attack, did you drink any kind of muti and incite the residents to go and kill?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, we normally used muti.

MS TANZER: At this meeting, did you tell the residents only to tell the members of the Self Defence Unit or to kill anybody they saw?

MR MKHIZE: We told them to kill only the SDU members.

MS TANZER: How many residents did you need to kill the SDU members? How many members actually attended this attack?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question?

MS TANZER: The question is how many residents of the hostel were sent to kill the members of this SDU?

MR MKHIZE: All the men who were present at the hostel. I am not sure of the number of the people who were there.

MS TANZER: Approximately how many residents did go to Boipatong with you?

MR MKHIZE: I do not want to tell lies, but we were many. I cannot specify the number.

MS TANZER: As you entered Boipatong, did you all go together or did you split up in different streets?

MR MKHIZE: We split up.

MS TANZER: Was each group that was split up, were they led, was there a leader allocated to them?

MR MKHIZE: There were only two groups. I think the other one was led by Damara and the other one was led by myself.

MS TANZER: If there were only two groups, there must have been what, something like 40, 50 members in each group? There must have been a group of about 50 people?

CHAIRPERSON: Where do you base that? Where do you base that?

MS TANZER: Excuse me?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the basis of those figures?

MS TANZER: The basis is, if he says many residents from the hostel went to Boipatong, and they split into two groups, then each group has to have amounted to quite, several amount of people.

CHAIRPERSON: Where do you get the figures 40 to 50? As I understand his evidence, it is that every member, resident of the hostel, went out. He doesn't know how many were there, he is not in a position to estimate, but there were many of them.

On what basis do you say that there were 40 to 50 in each group?

MS TANZER: As the Chairman pleases, I am just surmises 40 to 50, there could have been much more than that. That was just a guess. I withdraw that question.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't have to withdraw the question, unless you have proper basis for suggesting those figures. It may well be that those are your instructions. I assume, are those your instructions?

MS TANZER: My instructions are that in fact they split up into many groups, each group taking different streets in fact, and not, there was no mention of two groups.

My question really is if they were split in two groups, that would have to be a huge amount of people in each group, which almost would be uncontrollable.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I think perhaps what you should do is where your instructions differ from his evidence, perhaps you should put that.

MS TANZER: As the Chairman pleases. I put it to you according to the 18th applicant's version, Andries Nosenga, that in fact you were split up into little groups, smaller groups and each were attacking different streets, different houses in different streets and that there were about six, seven members in each group and it wasn't two separate groups completely.

MR MKHIZE: What I can say is that that person doesn't know what he is talking about.

There were only two groups. I do not even know who that person is. What he is telling you, maybe is what he has just surmised, but it is not a fact.

CHAIRPERSON: Are your instructions that there were approximately many groups, is it into many groups?

MS TANZER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that in each group there were approximately six or seven people?

MS TANZER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that those groups went out, entering various houses?

MS TANZER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I see. At what stage were those, did the group split into those different groups, right from the beginning or perhaps the moment when they entered the township?

MS TANZER: Well, according to Mr Nosenga's version, it is from the beginning.

I in fact put it to you that as you left the hostel, you were met by policemen in three or four caspirs, that actually accompanied you to the hostel.

MR MKHIZE: Is that what Mr Nosenga is saying? That is not true. Maybe he alone was with the police, but we did not have policemen at our company. He doesn't know what he is talking about.

The police were never present when we went there.

CHAIRPERSON: How many caspirs were there?

MS TANZER: Excuse me?

CHAIRPERSON: How many caspirs were there according to Mr Nosenga?

MS TANZER: According to Mr Nosenga, there were about three to four caspirs, accompanying the members. He is not exactly sure, but he is definitely sure of the caspirs being present.

I further put it to you that at the meetings prior to the attack, that in fact according to Mr Nosenga, a policeman named Peens, came to the meeting and basically encouraged this attack and advised that there would be assistance from the police in the carrying out of the attack.

MR MKHIZE: I think that Nosenga is trying to confuse you. That is all lies. There was never a white person, nor a policeman, when we went to attack.

CHAIRPERSON: The meeting that Mr Nosenga is referring to, is that the meeting, the very last meeting from which they just went on a rampage?

MS TANZER: No, in fact the meeting that he referred to was the meeting before the last meeting in which the rampage was discussed, the attack was actually discussed in detail.

According to Mr Nosenga, in fact your versions are very similar, except for the fact that he submits that policemen did accompany you to the Boipatong and in fact took part in the attack at Boipatong.

MR MKHIZE: I think he just hates the police. That is all lies, he is just trying to implicate the police. They were never involved in the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you putting it to this witness that Nosenga says his version, and that of the witness, are the same excepting for the presence of the police?

MS TANZER: That is correct Mr Chairman, they were primarily the same. They might differ in very insignificant ways, but generally the story is the same.

CHAIRPERSON: From what you have just put to the witness, it seems to me that they differ.

MS TANZER: Mr Chairman, Mr Nosenga states basically the way the attack took place, the calling to the stadium, the meetings, the proceeding to Boipatong itself, was generally the same until they reached the street, then they were accompanied by caspirs. Some of the residents in fact, got on the caspirs.

He in fact, got into one of the caspirs himself. He can identify the other people plus policemen that were with him in the caspir and basically as they arrived in Boipatong, how they were off-loaded at the street and they went into the houses.

CHAIRPERSON: Those two versions can't be the same then. They differ fundamentally? Anyway.

MS TANZER: As the Chairman pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Put this to the witness.

MS TANZER: I put it to you that according to Mr Nosenga, that you were accompanied by policemen, headed by one Mr Peens to Boipatong, that you were accompanied with caspirs and that in fact some of the residents ...

CHAIRPERSON: Ma'am, would you please bear in mind that we have the Interpreters who still have to interpret? Just put it bit by bit if you don't mind.

MS TANZER: I put it to you that you were accompanied by caspirs, driven by policemen.

MR MKHIZE: What Nosenga is saying, is all lies. He is going to be arrested and convicted, because he is lying.

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga further says that he entered a caspir, driven by - well, he entered a caspir in which Mr Peens and some other policemen were also in that caspir.

MR MKHIZE: Are you referring to Mr Nosenga? Is he the one who got into the caspir?

MS TANZER: That is correct, amongst others.

MR MKHIZE: I will not dispute if he says he went into a caspir, but with regards to other people who were present when the attack was launched, no one went into a caspir, there was no policemen, there was no caspir.

MS TANZER: According to Mr Nosenga, in fact, he can remember the following people in the caspir, one Katheni, Rubin, Themba Kubeka, one person known as Lucky, Sipho.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)

MS TANZER: Katheni, according to Mr Nosenga it is Katheni. Katheni, and I said Ruben. These are people known to him as Ruben, Themba Kubeka, a person named Lucky, a person named Sipho, a person named Makuka who he said was later killed in the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell that?

MS TANZER: Makuka. A person named Tsamo, a person named Dondo who he said was leading his group and somebody named Makeze. The spelling might not be correct Mr Chairman, but that is what I was able to obtain from Mr Nosenga.

In fact, according to Mr Nosenga, as they entered the caspir, the caspir was - the policemen there were in civilian clothes and they included a Mr Peens, that he had recognised from the meetings, a person named Shaka. Shaka he had known because he had recognised him who had arrested him in the past, and a policemen known as Rooikop.

MR MKHIZE: That is all lies. I am not even going to comment on it, because it is not true.

MS TANZER: According to Mr Nosenga, when the looting took place from the houses, televisions, videos and other such items were taken and in fact, they were put into the caspirs and they were not carried back to the hostel, but they were actually put into the caspirs, which were taken to the hostel.

MR MKHIZE: I have no knowledge thereof.

MS TANZER: Is it correct that after the attack, Mr Themba Khoza praised the residents of the hostel for the attack and the success of the attack?

MR MKHIZE: No, that is not true. Mr Khoza has never referred to this incident and he did not know what was going on. What he said was that he would like us to cooperate with the police.

He actually left that message that we should cooperate with the police. He actually called us directly and gave us that message.

With regards to him praising us, I have no knowledge thereof.

MS TANZER: Is it not correct that several weeks after the attack, you in fact went to Ulundi to celebrate the success of the attack?

MR MKHIZE: After the attack?

MS TANZER: Yes?

MR MKHIZE: We were actually arrested after the attack. We were arrested about three days thereafter, or maybe about a week thereafter.

When would we have gone to Ulundi then?

MS TANZER: How many people were arrested at the time?

MR MKHIZE: About 80 people. Although I cannot specify the correct number, but we were about 80.

MS TANZER: I put it to you on Mr Nosenga's version that a few weeks after the attack, he accompanied many others to Ulundi, where in fact he was praised at the rally for the attack and for the success of the attack.

MR MKHIZE: He must have gone there alone to receive those praises. We were already in prison by that time.

MS TANZER: My final question is, the Boipatong attack, do you think that was a random attack or was that planned? Was that a random action or was it a planned action?

MR MKHIZE: It was both planned and random because people had been complaining for quite some time that they are being attacked and killed and were actually confronting me on what to do, because they were no longer free to move around.

That is where the planning was involved. That is, we planned to attack Boipatong.

MS TANZER: Do you take personal responsibility for the innocent lives that were lost as a result of this attack?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I do.

MS TANZER: No further questions Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, I have no question at this stage. Perhaps I may have a question after cross-examination by the victims' legal representation.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, we intend taking a tea adjournment at this stage, and coming back at eleven o'clock. Will that be in order for you?

MR BERGER: That will be in order, yes, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a tea adjournment and come back at eleven o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Do we need all these lights, because I think they are just aggravating, can't we just switch them off, because I think they are just aggravating the situation. It is unbearably hot here, and these lights are just making the situation worse.

MR MAPOMA: I am not sure Chairperson, it all depends to the TV personnel. I think it depends on the TV personnel, I do not know how much light they need, perhaps I might find out from them.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we should, if we just have the minimum light that is necessary for them to carry on with their business, without interfering with ours.

BHEKINKOSI MKHIZE: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, do you want to commence with your cross-examination?

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I have literally just been handed a statement, I believe that you have also just been handed a statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Which statement is that?

MR BERGER: It is a sworn statement, I guess it is an affidavit by Mr Andries Matanzima Nosenga. I believe my learned friends have all been handed copies as well.

CHAIRPERSON: ... that is contained in this document?

MR MAPOMA: Sorry Chairperson, we have not yet handed the statement in, we have just received it when the Committee was just coming. I've got the statement, the copies with me now, I can hand them in to the Committee. It is an addition to the bundle of documents that are here.

CHAIRPERSON: The affidavit that is contained here, is not signed.

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I am loathe to do this, but from a brief reading of the statement, I have read a couple of paragraphs, it would appear that there is a lot in the statement that I will need to put in cross-examination of the witness.

I can start.

CHAIRPERSON: Please get on, and if it is necessary, we will give you the opportunity to go through the statement and your colleagues who are with you in this matter, can read the statement in the meantime and then take over the cross-examination at some point.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: As you please Chairperson. Mr Mkhize ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you commence, shall we - what was the last Exhibit number? I take it that this statement is being handed in as part of the application of Mr Nosenga?

MS TANZER: It is Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Add it to the addendum to the Boipatong index, which is the last bundle of documents, and according to my numbering, this document goes up to page 17.

Shall we then mark this one - does it go up to 23, right? Is it necessary to give the addendum a separate Exhibit number?

MR BERGER: I suggest it would be Chairperson. We handed in our memorandum, that was O, I don't know if there were any Exhibits after that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it would be P. The reply would then we Exhibit P.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, there were two replies, so might I suggest that the reply by the applicants be Exhibit P, that the reply by the SANDF be Exhibit Q and then the addendum will be Exhibit R.

CHAIRPERSON: The SANDF reply would then be Q, right? The addendum to Boipatong index, which consist of the application by Nosenga and the accompanying documents, shall be marked

Exhibit R: . Yes, very well. Yes, Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mkhize, you have told the Committee that you were the leader of the AmaButho. How did that fit in to the other structures at kwaMadala?

MR MKHIZE: Which structures?

MR BERGER: Were there any other structures besides the AmaButho in kwaMadala?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, there was a youth leadership and the middle leadership and that later on, that of AmaButho.

MR BERGER: Who was in charge of, who was the leader of the youth leadership?

MR MKHIZE: I wouldn't know exactly, but the one that I still remember is Mr Buthelezi.

MR BERGER: Which Buthelezi is that?

MR MKHIZE: There he is.

MR BERGER: You are pointing to somebody in the audience. Is it one of the applicants?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Where is he, in which row?

MR MKHIZE: There he is.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you his first name, do you know his name?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is his name?

MR MKHIZE: He is Mqambileni Buthelezi. Nicholas is his other name.

MR BERGER: And he was the leader of the youth in the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: And that was an IFP structure, am I correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Then you said there was a middle committee. Who was the leader of the middle committee?

MR MKHIZE: It was Prince and ourselves. We were part of that leadership.

MR BERGER: That is Prince Vanana Zulu that you are talking about?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: You say it was he, yourself and anyone else in the leadership?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, there were several others, but the one who was above us all was the Prince himself.

MR BERGER: Can you give the names of the others?

MR MKHIZE: That is not easy, I have forgotten them, it has been a long time now.

MR BERGER: Surely you can remember the other people who served with you on this committee, being the leaders of the IFP in the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, but then we did not know one another quite well. I am from Mahlabatini and often times, they used to refer to me as Mkhize, they don't know my name, and I know them as Zulu, Shohesa, Mtjale, etc, and therefore it is not easy for me to know their actual name, apart from the surname.

They too, like Prince Zulu for example, he is the one who knows what my name is and my surname.

CHAIRPERSON: All that you are being asked is to give us the names of the other committee members, whether you knew them by surname or by first name, it doesn't matter. All that Counsel requires is for you to tell us who else was a member of that committee, do you understand the question?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. It was the Prince himself and Shohesa. I am very sorry, I cannot remember the others, it has been a long time since.

CHAIRPERSON: You have said Zulu Shohesa, is there any other person that you can still recall who was a member of this committee?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, there are others that I can remember, but the problem is that I cannot recall them now, but when I see them, I can recall that they were part of the committee.

We have gone our separate ways. We left and I went to stay at a different place. We are no longer together.

MR BERGER: Mr Mkhize, you served on this committee from 1990, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, if I am not mistaken, that is correct. I think it was round about October.

MR BERGER: You served on the committee for almost two years before the massacre, correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: And the only people whose names you can now recall as being co-members with you on the committee is Prince Vanana Zulu and a man by the name of Shohesa. That is all you can remember?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, these are the names that I can still recall. The reason being that it has been a long time, and also the fact that we no longer reside in the same hostel.

We are now around Sebokeng and some of them have remained behind at kwaMadala hostel, that is why I have lost their names. I can only remember when I go back to the hostel, see them and I can recall that they were part of the committee. Some came from Nongoma and I come from Mahlabatini.

MR BERGER: Is Shohesa amongst the applicants, is he present in the hall today?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: You mentioned Zondo and Mtjale, were they also on the committee?

MR MKHIZE: No, I was just giving an example to the fact that we used to use our surnames to refer to one another.

MR BERGER: Was this committee also known as the Steering Committee?

MR MKHIZE: I do not get it quite well.

MR BERGER: Do you know about the Steering Committee?

MR MKHIZE: It was a committee that was responsible for the residents of the hostel.

MR BERGER: Were you also on that committee?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Who else was on that committee?

MR MKHIZE: I have said earlier on that the Prince, as well as Shohesa. I cannot recall the others, I cannot recall their names.

MR BERGER: If I am correct, when you refer to the Steering Committee and the middle committee, you are referring to one and the same committee, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: You see, you were asked that question on page 66, paragraph 5, please identify those persons who were members of the Steering Committee of kwaMadala during 17 June 1992 and your answer, page 70, paragraph 5, Moses Mthembu, Vanana Zulu and myself, although I played just a minor role on this committee. Is that answer correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Did you forget about Moses Mthembu?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. I did point out that it has been a long time since this happened. We then parted ways and it has been a long time since we parted ways.

Not that I am trying to hide something. Moses Mthembu was actually more on the side of the firm than us.

MR BERGER: Mr Mqambileni Buthelezi was asked the same question at page 50, question 3. He was asked please identify those persons who were members of the Steering Committee of kwaMadala during 17 June 1992 and his answer which is at page 53, paragraph 3, is that the members were Moses Mthembu, Ntuli, Mkwanazi and Shohesa. You can see some of the names are the same as you have given, some are different, but he leaves you off this committee.

My question to you is who really was serving on this Steering Committee or middle committee?

MR MKHIZE: You have already referred to Mkwanazi, yes, now I can remember that Mkwanazi and Ntuli were part of this committee.

MR BERGER: Where is Ntuli now? Ntuli?

MR MKHIZE: I think he is on retirement or pension, but I am not quite sure.

MR BERGER: And Mkwanazi?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, he is still around.

MR BERGER: Is that Sonny Michael Mkwanazi?

MR MKHIZE: No. No, I do not know his name quite well, I just know he is Mkwanazi.

MR BERGER: Apparently there was also a senior committee in the hostel, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Who served on the senior committee?

MR MKHIZE: This is the very same committee that I am talking about, there was no other committee above it.

MR BERGER: So the committee that we refer to as the Steering Committee or the middle committee, was also known as the senior committee, would that be correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Have a look please at page 70 of the bundle of documents. You were asked in question 4 on page 66, to supply details about the structures of the various committees at kwaMadala. These questions were discussed with you by your legal representatives, am I correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And you then gave answers through an Interpreter which were then recorded from page 69 onwards, am I correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I think so.

MR BERGER: You said there at page 69, paragraph 4.1 that there was a Steering Committee which was in control of the hostel. That is the committee that you have told us about where you were on, Vanana Zulu, Moses Mthembu and the others. You were all in control of the hostel, would that be right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Then you say in paragraph 4.2, the political structures were the senior men and the youth. The political structures had nothing to do with the management structure in the hostel.

Are you saying that there were ISCOR structures, the committee that we have just referred to and political structures which were separate from those?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember quite well.

MR BERGER: You say in paragraph 4.3 that the youth was responsible for the organisation of rallies, whilst the senior structure was responsible for discipline within the IFP party as well as decision making that relates to the IFP within the hostel.

If I were to ask you who were the IFP leaders in the hostel, who would you say they were?

MR MKHIZE: I was one of the leaders of the IFP.

MR BERGER: And who else?

MR MKHIZE: People such as Mkwanazi and Shohesa and the Prince himself.

MR BERGER: And Moses Mthembu?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, and Moses Mthembu. But then I don't want to include him that much because he was working for the firm, he was working under the directorship of the firm.

MR BERGER: When you say in paragraph 4.4 the Steering Committee was ultimately responsible to ISCOR, the structure I was the leader of, was called AmaButho and in that capacity, I was the leader of the IFP in the hostel.

As I understand your evidence now, you are not saying that you were the most senior leader of the IFP in the hostel, you are saying, and if I am wrong, correct me, you are saying you were one of the leaders of the IFP in the hostel but there were others, such as Mkwanazi, Shohesa, Ntuli, Prince Vanana Zulu, would that be correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And who would be the overall leader of the IFP in the hostel, who would be the most senior leader of the IFP in the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: It was Prince Vanana Zulu and Mthembu. Mthembu was in that senior position in so far as his job is concerned, being an employee of ISCOR. That is at least the knowledge that I have.

MR BERGER: And underneath Vanana Zulu and Moses Mthembu, who was next in line?

MR MKHIZE: It was Ntuli, Mkwanazi as well as Shohesa and then we would be just part of that list, at the bottom of those names.

MR BERGER: When you say we, you are referring to yourself? You would be at the bottom of that list of names?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And Damara Qunchu, he was not on that committee, he was your assistant?

MR MKHIZE: No, he was not part of this committee.

MR BERGER: Would it be correct to say that Damara Qunchu was the leader of the group of men that came from Umsinga to the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: That is not correct.

MR BERGER: I want to read to you what Victor Mthembu says at page 5, paragraph 5. Let me start with paragraph 4, he says the Indunas of the IFP at the hostel at the time, were Prince Vanana Zulu and a certain Mkhize who came from Umsinga.

They were the Indunas of the kwaMadala hostel during 1990 and up to 1993. Do you have any comment?

MR MKHIZE: No, Qunchu did not hold any position at that time.

MR BERGER: No, no, you are not listening to what I am reading. I didn't read anything about Qunchu.

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat.

MR BERGER: Okay, I will read slowly. Mr Victor Mthembu says the following, he says that the Indunas of the IFP at the hostel at the time, were Prince Vanana Zulu, that is Mtwana and a certain Mkhize, who came from Umsinga. They were the Indunas of the kwaMadala hostel during 1990 and up to 1993. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: I am aware that the Prince was the person responsible for the entire hostel. I am not aware of that Mkhize from Umsinga, because I am from Mahlabatini, not Umsinga.

I know that I was an Induna at the hostel, but I do not come from Umsinga.

MR BERGER: Well the Mkhize that Mr Victor Mthembu is referring to, is you. You are the Mkhize he refers to.

MR MKHIZE: I do not dispute that, but I dispute the fact that that Mkhize came from Umsinga, I do not come from that place.

MR BERGER: He goes on in paragraph 5 and he says during 1990 Mkhize and Damara Qunchu came from Umsinga, kwaZulu-Natal to come and help us against the ANC.

It is correct that you came to the hostel in 1990, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Is it also correct that Damara Qunchu came from Umsinga in 1990?

MR MKHIZE: That is not correct. Qunchu used to work at Cape Gate, he had been working there for a very long time. When the conflict started, he had already been there.

MR BERGER: He goes on to say that they came at the beginning of the violence in Sebokeng in 1990, after the ANC had started burning the houses of the Zulu's and members of the IFP in Sebokeng, which resulted in all the Zulu's and IFP members gathering at the kwaMadala hostel. Would that be correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, this did happen. We did meet and decide to stay in the hostel, because of the attacks that we were experiencing.

Because of those attacks, we decided to come together and stay in the hostel.

MR BERGER: He says they were there from 1990 until 1993 when I was arrested, that was the last time I saw them there. I do not know who gave orders to Qunchu.

Was it a secret that Damara Qunchu was your assistant?

MR MKHIZE: It was not a secret.

MR BERGER: Then in paragraph 6, Mr Mthembu says Damara Qunchu was the leader of the hit squads from Umsinga. He was the leader of the hit squad in the kwaMadala hostel as well. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: I am not aware of those hit squads.

MR BERGER: Was there a group of men, 40 to 50 men, who came from Umsinga to stay at kwaMadala hostel who were not working at ISCOR and who lived in the hostel and who were supported by the other residents in the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: That is not correct. There were people from Umsinga, but they were not more than ten. They could have been eleven at the most and I knew them. We are still staying with these people. They were not 40.

No, some of them used to work in the taxi business, just like Mr Qunchu, he owned taxi's.

MR BERGER: You see, because Mr Victor Mthembu talks in great detail in his affidavit about this Umsinga contingent, and his version coincides with your version about paying money, or money being collected from the residents for the purchase of guns.

He talks about it in paragraph 8 on page 6, he says that after the police had raided the hostel, no weapons were left and then this resulted in Vanana Zulu telling us that everybody had to contribute so that more weapons could be bought. Do you remember that?

MR MKHIZE: I don't remember it clearly. What I do remember is that I was one of the people who used to call meetings where we would discuss how much was required to buy those weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there an incident when the police came to the hostel and confiscated firearms?

MR MKHIZE: The police normally came to the hostel and they would confiscate firearms. It used to happen quite frequently.

CHAIRPERSON: After they had been confiscated, would the residents of the hostel then collect money to buy further arms?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: And Vanana Zulu would attend these meetings, call upon the residents to contribute money so that weapons could be bought, is that right?

MR MKHIZE: I don't remember it that way. What I remember is that I was the person responsible for collecting or asking people to collect that money.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu says that the reason that he gave money and he talks about others also giving for the same reason, was that they were afraid that if they didn't give money for these weapons, that they would be killed by members of the Umsinga contingent.

MR MKHIZE: It could be, I cannot dispute what he is saying because as I also mentioned, I realised that my life was in danger. He could have realised the same thing.

MR BERGER: Well, that is exactly where I was coming to Mr Mkhize. You say that you launched the attack on Boipatong because you felt that if you didn't do that at that stage, you yourself could be killed by some of the hostel residents, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And was it not this Umsinga contingent that you feared would kill you, if the attack was not launched?

MR MKHIZE: No, I said it was the residents of kwaMadala. I did not refer to specific individuals.

I just said it was the residents of the hostel.

MR BERGER: Well, which residents in particular did you fear might go so far as to kill you if an attack was not launched?

MR MKHIZE: It was the residents of kwaMadala hostel who were complaining of being attacked and killed.

MR BERGER: In the attack on the 17th of June 1992, did you feel that there was a group of residents in the hostel who were intent on killing you?

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat the question.

MR BERGER: Did you feel that if you had not launched the attack on the 17th of June 1992, that there was a group of residents whom you didn't know by name, who were intent on killing you?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: You made a confession or let me move away from a loaded word like that, let me say that you made a statement after your arrest to a Captain Radley, do you remember that, that was on the 11th of July 1992?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember.

MR BERGER: Do you not remember making any statement to the police?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember because we were assaulted by the police, because we were assaulted and we made several statements at the time.

MR BERGER: I am referring to Exhibit E which is currently before the Committee, perhaps if my learned friend, Mr Strydom, could place a copy of that Exhibit before you, I would appreciate that. If not, I will read it, it is fine.

I will read it to you and then it will be translated. You say on page 4 of this Exhibit E, paragraph 12, that which I can say, happened on Wednesday evening. That Wednesday was the 17th of June 1992, it was just after nine o'clock in the evening. You are recounting what happened that night.

So far what I have read to you, would that be correct?

MR MKHIZE: I am not sure.

MR BERGER: Okay, I will go on. You continue, you say I was at the kwaMadala hostel, I live there in a room, it is room number 8. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: That Wednesday at that time, I was at the stadium inside the hostel, that would be at about nine o'clock in the evening, you say you were at the stadium inside the hostel. Would that be correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Then you go on to say, I and other people who were living at that hostel, had decided that the people were preventing us from leaving the hostel to go to the shops, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: We then decided to attack the people who lived in the vicinity of the hostel. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You can accept when I say the following, that there is no mention made in this statement of any other reason for the attack, other than the fact that people were being prevented from going to the shops. That was your sole reason as stated in this statement for the attack.

My question to you is, why did you not make any mention of the fact that you launched the attack for two reasons, (a) because you, yourself were terrified that you would be killed if you did not launch the attack, and (b) that IFP members were being killed by people from Boipatong?

Why did you make no mention of that?

MR MKHIZE: I think it was just an omission on my part. It is a fact that people were being killed. It is not something that I am making up.

MR BERGER: Is it a fact that, and I think your words were, IFP members were dying every day, being killed every day by people in Boipatong, is that a fact? You say yes?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, although it may not have been daily, but it happened frequently.

MR BERGER: In Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: They were being attacked by people from Boipatong.

MR BERGER: You were living in the area, you say from 1990. Before you moved into kwaMadala, you were staying in Sebokeng, is that right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: At the hostel, kwaMasisa hostel?

MR MKHIZE: No, at Sebokeng hostel.

MR BERGER: You will know that many people were killed at the Sebokeng hostel on the 4th of September 1990, do you remember that?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember it well.

MR BERGER: In fact a total of 43 people were killed and many were wounded. It was a confrontation between Inkatha, the IFP, and hostel residents at Sebokeng hostel. Do you not remember that at all?

MR MKHIZE: I remember that there was a lot of fighting at the hostel and when we were attacked and had to flee, a lot of people were killed.

MR BERGER: And you will remember that before that, on the 22nd of July 1990, there was an IFP rally in Everton, Zone 7, do you remember that? That was, if I am correct, the first IFP rally in the Vaal?

MR MKHIZE: It was not in Everton, but in Zone 7.

MR BERGER: Zone 7 Sebokeng?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, in Sebokeng.

MR BERGER: I beg your pardon. That was when the violence started in the Vaal, am I correct, after that rally or from the time of that rally, 22 July 1990?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: After the deaths on the 4th of September 1990, is it correct that there were many IFP members arrested including a person by the name of Sibusiso Qunchu?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And is it correct that Sibusiso Qunchu and Damara Qunchu are the same person?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And then there were many other incidents of violence that happened in Sebokeng, in Everton, around the Sebokeng hostel, but there was no violence around Boipatong, and I am talking now right up to the beginning of 1991. No violence around Boipatong, would that be correct?

MR MKHIZE: I would say that that is correct to a certain extent, because we were being attacked by the entire Vaal Triangle area. It could have been the people from Bopuleni, Boipatong or wherever else in the Vaal Triangle. Everyone who was Inkatha or Zulu speaking, was being attacked.

MR BERGER: Isn't the position rather Mr Mkhize, that the IFP had no real presence in the Vaal, prior to July 1990 and then after that rally, I beg your pardon, in July, the 22nd of July 1990, the IFP established a presence in the Vaal by continuously waging a war against the residents of the Vaal. Isn't that what was happening at the time?

MR MKHIZE: No, that is not correct. That rally was held to commemorate the burning down of our members' houses which had been burnt by the ANC members.

MR BERGER: And also I am referring now to the beginning of 1991, there was a gang operating based at kwaMadala hostel and headed by Victor Keswa, also known as Katisi. Do you know about that?

MR MKHIZE: I don't have knowledge thereof.

MR BERGER: You don't have knowledge about Victor Keswa at all?

MR MKHIZE: I know Keswa very well. What I know was that there was a gang that he was with, the people who came from the township. Whether he was their leader or not, I am not aware thereof.

MR BERGER: I am asking you whether you know that Victor Keswa's gang operated from kwaMadala hostel? Not that they worked at the hostel, that they were based, Victor Keswa and his gang were based at kwaMadala hostel and launched their attacks from kwaMadala hostel on residents of the Vaal?

MR MKHIZE: I don't have knowledge of that sort. If you have knowledge or evidence of such, I would not dispute it because they used to reside at the hostel.

MR BERGER: Victor Keswa and his gang did reside at kwaMadala hostel, is that what you are saying?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, they did reside at the hostel.

MR BERGER: Would you describe the AmaButho as the military wing of kwaMadala hostel, would that be a fair description?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I could describe them as such.

MR BERGER: And so you were the leader of the AmaButho, you as the Commander, you would have been aware of what fighting units were resident in kwaMadala hostel and what they were up to, correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I would have known, except in circumstances where a person was secretly involved in criminal activities.

I knew all that there was to know about the AmaButho and the activities in the hostel.

MR BERGER: On the 12th of January 1991, there was a night vigil for Christopher Ngalembe and at that night vigil, the people at the vigil were attacked, 35 people were killed and over 40 people were injured. Do you know about that attack, it was in Sebokeng?

MR MKHIZE: I heard about it.

MR BERGER: And you also heard that Victor Keswa's gang was blamed for that attack, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I heard about it.

MR BERGER: Do you know whether Victor Keswa and his gang were responsible for that attack?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not have such knowledge. I was away at home at that time, I returned when they had already been arrested and their trial was in progress.

MR BERGER: Victor Keswa was released after that. Did you never question him about his participation in the attack?

MR MKHIZE: No, I never discussed it with him.

MR BERGER: Is that because you were afraid of him and his gang?

MR MKHIZE: No, he was a small kid.

MR BERGER: Victor Keswa was a small kid? Did you say Victor Keswa was a small kid?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, he was very young, much younger than I am.

MR BERGER: Did you know that amongst the people arrested in relation to the Ngalembe night vigil massacre, was Darkie Qunchu?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I was aware of that.

MR BERGER: He was the brother of Damara Qunchu, Sibusiso Qunchu, right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: As well as Thomas Lukhozi, he was also arrested?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Was Thomas Lukhozi with you on the night of the attack on Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: I don't remember, but I think he was present.

MR BERGER: And Daniel Mabote, Themba Mabote, he was also arrested with Victor Keswa following the night vigil massacre? Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: When those people were arrested, Victor Keswa was in hospital.

MR BERGER: That was in January, February 1991, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: Although I cannot remember quite clearly, but I do know that Victor Keswa was in hospital.

MR BERGER: Do you know a person by the name of Aaron Mtjale?

MR MKHIZE: What is the name again?

MR BERGER: Aaron Mtjale?

MR MKHIZE: Maybe I know him by another name.

MR BERGER: Is that not the Mtjale who served on the senior committee?

MR MKHIZE: I don't remember.

MR BERGER: Do you know of an incident which occurred between the 4th and the 10th of March 1991, where Vanana Zulu went with Inkatha members from the kwaMadala hostel to some shebeens in Boipatong, and threatened that Inkatha would invade residents to teach them a lesson? This is March 1991?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not have any knowledge thereof. I don't remember ever having accompanied Prince Zulu anywhere.

MR BERGER: Well, did you ever discuss with Vanana Zulu, Prince Zulu, his attitude towards the residents of Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat the question.

MR BERGER: Did you ever discuss Prince Vanana Zulu's attitude towards the people of Boipatong, did you ever discuss that with him?

MR MKHIZE: It was something that we used to discuss and he would tell me that we should wait a while because he was still trying to find a way of discussing this issue with the leaders from Boipatong. That is what we usually discussed with the Prince.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say that Vanana Zulu would say to you, you must wait?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: What did the applicant want to do?

MR MKHIZE: We used to tell him that people were complaining that they were being attacked and killed daily and I was of the opinion that we should launch a revenge attack.

The Prince said we should wait whilst he was still trying to meet leaders from Boipatong, with whom he will discuss this matter, so that the killing would stop.

MR BERGER: We are talking about the period 1990 to 1991, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Do you know a man by the name of Ernest Tsotso? Ernest Tsotso?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know him.

MR BERGER: Do you know the name of any leader of the ANC in Boipatong during the period 1990 to 1992 or even 1993?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not know any.

MR BERGER: So you as the leader of the AmaButho, you did not know who was leading the ANC in Boipatong, you did not know any single member of the ANC in Boipatong, is that right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I did not know anyone.

MR BERGER: Did you make any attempt to find out who the leaders of the ANC in Boipatong were, who the leaders of the SDU's, Self Defence Units in Boipatong were?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not.

MR BERGER: You never discussed it with Prince Vanana Zulu or Victor Keswa or anyone else?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not.

MR BERGER: What position did Victor Keswa hold in the IFP, during the period 1990 to 1993?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know him to having had any position. I do not know if he had a position in the youth.

MR BERGER: You don't know that on the 3rd of July 1991, Mr Ernest Tsotso's wife, his daughter and his six year old son, were shot dead at their home in Boipatong? You don't know about that?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not know about that. I may have heard about it, because there was a lot going on at that time, but I may not have known exactly whose family it was.

MR BERGER: The allegations were that Mr Victor Keswa and residents of the kwaMadala hostel were responsible for this attack on Mr Tsotso's family. Did that ever come to your attention?

MR MKHIZE: I have already said that I do not know about it.

MR BERGER: You see because Mr Ernest Tsotso was a prominent leader of the ANC in Boipatong at that time. You didn't know that?

MR MKHIZE: I have already mentioned that I do not know any leader, ANC leader, from Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkhize, did you at any stage prior to the attack on Boipatong, receive information that there were people from the hostel who were attacking people in the township, from time to time?

MR MKHIZE: No. I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you at any stage prior to the attack, hear that there were allegations that people like Keswa were attacking people in the townships?

MR MKHIZE: No. I did not hear about it. They may have done this covertly.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I understand that you may not have been aware of those attacks, but what I am asking you is, did you at any stage hear of those allegations?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you ever heard that there were allegations that there were people such as Mr Keswa who would attack townships?

MR MKHIZE: No. I only heard after they were arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: As a leader of the AmaButho in the hostel, did you make any enquiries from Keswa about these allegations?

MR MKHIZE: I have never questioned him, because they did not reside at the hostel all the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you concerned about the allegations? You see, you were in charge of - were you in charge of AmaButho?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said AmaButho were the military wing of the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If an attack was to be launched, AmaButho would be involved?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So if there was an allegation that an attack had been launched from the hostel, would that not concern you that AmaButho would carry such an attack without your approval?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not try to investigate about it?

MR MKHIZE: With regard to this instance, I was not able to investigate because no one claimed to have knowledge of that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you investigate?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ask anybody?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I did discuss it with Prince Vanana and he didn't have knowledge of who had committed the act.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. Victor Keswa and other residents of the kwaMadala hostel were arrested as you say, in relation to the Ngalembe night vigil, but they were then released and in fact, Prince Vanana Zulu asked the Court at their bail hearing, to release the accused into the car of the hostel dwellers at kwaMadala. Do you know about that?

MR MKHIZE: No. Victor Keswa was not arrested for that incident.

MR BERGER: What incident was he arrested for?

MR MKHIZE: I am not very sure. There were various crimes that he was arrested for, but he was not arrested for the incident at the night vigil, because he was in hospital.

MR BERGER: Do you know of an incident in July of 1991, where approximately 300 men from kwaMadala hostel attacked the residents of Boipatong? Do you remember such an incident?

MR MKHIZE: That is precisely the incident we are discussing.

MR BERGER: No, no, July 1991, about a year, eleven months before the massacre?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not remember that.

MR BERGER: Do you know a person by the name of Billy Mokuthedi?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not.

MR BERGER: You don't know of the allegation that he was killed by residents of Boipatong, July 1991?

MR MKHIZE: The same Billy?

MR BERGER: Yes?

MR MKHIZE: Was he an IFP member?

MR BERGER: Would it make a difference? Do you know of a person by the name of Billy Mokuthedi who was allegedly killed by Boipatong residents?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not know him. Maybe I do know him, it could be that I do not recognise the name.

MR BERGER: I am still in July of 1991, do you know anything about an incident where two people were killed and houses were damaged, when armed men went on the rampage in Boipatong, July 1990? This is now the 29th of July?

MR LAX: Did you say 1990 or 1991?

MR BERGER: I beg your pardon, 1991?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember that incident.

MR BERGER: Do you remember a stay away that was organised by COSATU in August of 1991 where COSATU protested against ISCOR for allowing kwaMadala to be used as a base for attacks by members of the IFP on residents of the Vaal?

I can tell you the stay away was on the 12th of August 1991.

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember. It could have been at the time when we were in prison.

MR BERGER: Unless you have been in prison for other offences, I am talking about August 1991, before the massacre, about ten months before the massacre?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember.

MR BERGER: In the middle of August, the 15th of August 1991, between 300 and 500 Boipatong residents marched to ISCOR. They had a memorandum which they handed over to the ISCOR management, demanding the closure of kwaMadala hostel because kwaMadala was being used as a base for attacks by the IFP on residents of the Vaal. Do you remember that protest?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know that the, or were you aware at the time that the residents of Boipatong were unhappy about the fact that they were being attacked from kwaMadala hostel?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. There was a lot of conflict between us and the residents of Boipatong. I know that they were unhappy about us. We also were unhappy about them.

MR BERGER: No Mr Mkhize, the attacks were coming from the kwaMadala hostel. I will tell you the attacks from the residents of Boipatong.

One I told you was in relation to the death of Mr Billy Mokuthedi, that was the end of July 1991. There had been attacks before that by certain elements in kwaMadala hostel on the residents of Boipatong and the residents of the Vaal in general, that is July 1991.

The next incident in relation to Boipatong, was on the 12th of January 1992, when Mr Bongani Mbatha was killed. That was the next incident. So it is from July 1991 to January 1992 and during that time, and before July 1991, there are these attacks from kwaMadala hostel. Can you comment on that?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know about that. What I do know is that Bongani Mbatha was killed in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: And you know that he was killed on the 12th of January 1992?

MR MKHIZE: Are you referring to Bongani?

MR BERGER: Yes?

MR MKHIZE: I am not certain of the date, but I do know that he was killed in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: You said that you held meetings in the hostel, and residents were complaining about the fact that IFP members and supporters were being killed every day and you held one such meeting, two weeks before the attack on Boipatong, that would put it roundabout the 3rd of June 1992, am I correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I did mention that there were several meetings that were held, although I cannot remember the exact dates of those meetings.

Therefore I cannot say which meeting was on which date.

MR BERGER: But you do recall a meeting about two weeks before the massacre where residents were complaining about IFP members being killed by Boipatong residents, do you remember that?

MR MKHIZE: As I mentioned before, there could have been two or more meetings where residents had voiced these complaints.

MR BERGER: What I am more concerned about is the timing of these meetings. You conceded when you were being questioned by Ms Tanzer, that one such meeting could have been held about two weeks before the massacre where these complaints were being aired, am I correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I do not dispute that. What I am saying is I cannot remember exactly when these meetings were held. It could have been two or three meetings or more.

It is not that I am denying that I said that before.

MR BERGER: From the 12th of January 1992 until June 1992, there was a lot of violence in the Vaal, Sharpeville, Sebokeng, but not Boipatong. Do you know of anyone who was killed, any IFP member who was killed in Boipatong or by residents of Boipatong after Mr Bongani Mbatha was killed and until the beginning, 3rd, 4th, 5th of June 1992? Do you know of any IFP member who was killed?

MR MKHIZE: Although I cannot be certain whether people were killed before or after the death of Bongani Mbatha, there were people who were killed in the township.

MR BERGER: Do you know of an incident on the 4th of June 1992, where four ANC members were allegedly kidnapped, tortured, taken to kwaMadala hostel and forced to join the IFP?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: I beg your pardon it was in May 1992, do you know about that?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not know about it.

MR BERGER: The next IFP supporter to be killed, was Mr David Mbele, did you know him?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember him.

MR BERGER: And he was killed on the 13th of June 1992.

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember him.

MR BERGER: There were other IFP members who were allegedly killed, I beg your pardon, there is one other IFP member who was allegedly killed on the 13th of June 1992 in Boipatong, a woman. Do you know of her?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I know of a certain Nomvula.

MR BERGER: And then on the 14th of June 1992, a Mr Bea Khumalo was killed in Boipatong. Did you know Mr Khumalo?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I did.

MR BERGER: My point is this Mr Mkhize, from the end of January 1992 until the beginning of June, in fact until the 12th of June 1992, no IFP members or supporters were killed in Boipatong.

How then was it possible at a meeting held approximately on the 3rd of June 1992, for residents of the kwaMadala hostel to come and complain about members dying daily at the hands of residents of Boipatong, when in fact that wasn't happening on the 3rd of June, and hadn't happened for months before the 3rd of June 1992. That is my question.

MR MKHIZE: I do not believe that we would just go out and attack people without a reason. What I know is that we actually launched a revenge attack.

MR BERGER: Oh you had a reason Mr Mkhize, let me suggest to you what your reason was. Your reason was part of an IFP strategy for the Vaal, in fact for the Transvaal at the time, and that strategy was to import people from kwaZulu Natal into those areas, and let's concentrate on the Vaal, and to create chaos in the Vaal so as to destabilise the political processes that were on the way at the time. Wasn't that the whole reason behind this attack, this massacre on Boipatong on the 17th of June 1992?

MR MKHIZE: That is not true. I regard it as an insult.

MR BERGER: Do you know what was happening at the time politically in the country, June 1992? Did you know about CODESA?

MR MKHIZE: I would hear about it although I did not know what was going on. I heard about CODESA.

MR BERGER: And there were negotiations underway, designed to produce a new constitutional dispensation for this country, to change the country from apartheid to a democratic South Africa? You knew that that was going on at the time, didn't you?

MR MKHIZE: No, I was not aware of that happening.

MR BERGER: And the attack on Boipatong, I am putting to you, was designed to derail those negotiations, wasn't that the purpose for the attack on Boipatong? It went far beyond you and the residents of kwaMadala, it was an IFP decision to attack Boipatong, so as to derail those negotiations?

MR MKHIZE: That is an insult. I regard it as an insult.

MR BERGER: All right, well, you yourself didn't want to attack Boipatong, am I right, you were forced to?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And these requests for action against Boipatong, were being made to you over a long period of time, over many months before the attack actually took place, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you, as one of the most senior leaders of the IFP in the hostel, who did you discuss a potential attack on Boipatong, with?

MR MKHIZE: I already mentioned that I spoke to the residents, because the Prince who was actually the most senior person, was absent. Therefore I discussed the matter with the residents.

MR BERGER: Mr Mkhize, we are talking about leaders now. You have told the Committee that over many months, there was this feeling amongst the residents, I won't put it any higher than that, feeling that there had to be an attack on Boipatong.

My question to you is, which leaders of the IFP, either in the hostel or outside the hostel, did you consult with at any time, before you decided to launch the attack on Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: I did not discuss it with any leaders.

MR BERGER: You knew that, this is according to you, that Prince Vanana Zulu was against an attack, correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You were against an attack, you have already said that that is correct.

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Why were you against the attack and why was Vanana Zulu against the attack?

MR MKHIZE: The problem I had was that people were going to be killed, but I also felt that my life was in danger. The Prince can speak for himself as to his reasons for his unwillingness to go and attack Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Which people were going to be killed? You said you were against the attack, because people were going to be killed. Which people?

MR MKHIZE: I did mention before that it was members of the Self Defence Units.

MR BERGER: You were against killing them, but you decided it is better that they get killed instead of you getting killed, would that be fair?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And you were against killing them, because you thought, I ask you, that this would be contrary to IFP policy and would be counter to the aims and objectives of the Inkatha Freedom Party, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You knew that Moses Mthembu was a senior member of the IFP in the hostel, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: He was not an IFP leader, but he was in a senior position under the ISCOR management.

MR BERGER: Why didn't you discuss a possible attack with him, or ways in which you could avoid attacking Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: It was not easy for me to tell something of this nature to him, because he was elderly.

MR BERGER: Because he was older than you, you didn't discuss your fears in relation to an attack on Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat the question.

MR BERGER: Because he was older than you, you didn't discuss your fears with him in relation to an attack on Boipatong, is that your reason?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is so.

MR BERGER: Why didn't you discuss the problem with Mr Themba Khoza for example, he was a leader of the IFP in the Vaal, you knew that, you could have spoken to him?

MR MKHIZE: Themba Khoza was not a leader in the Vaal Triangle.

MR BERGER: What was Themba Khoza's position at the time?

MR MKHIZE: He was a senior leader in Johannesburg, in the Johannesburg area, not here in the Vaal Triangle.

MR BERGER: He used to come to kwaMadala before the massacre to speak to you, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: You knew where to get hold of him, you knew that he was a senior leader, correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I did know.

MR BERGER: Why didn't you contact him and say Mr Khoza, I am having problems here at kwaMadala, I need your assistance?

MR MKHIZE: With regard to IFP leadership, it is not easy for you to actually inform leaders that you intend killing some people. You only have to discuss such matters with people at your level.

Mr Khoza was a senior leader, it was not something that would have been easy for me to do. He would have regarded that as disrespect and I could have been disciplined for that.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand your evidence, the residents of kwaMadala hostel, had been complaining for some time about the fact that they can't leave the hostel and they are being attacked, whenever they are out of the hostel.

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When this was first brought to your attention, this is now this complaint, who did you discuss it with?

MR MKHIZE: I called a meeting and we discussed the matter with the residents of the hostel. I also informed Prince Vanana Zulu and the Prince said I should actually hold on because he was going to communicate with leaders in Boipatong, so that ordinary members would be called upon to stop the fighting.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the members of the Committee of which you were a member?

MR MKHIZE: We did not discuss this in the committee. I thought it was better to inform the Prince.

CHAIRPERSON: What position did he have at the hostel at the time, was he the most senior IFP member?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, he was the most senior person at the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. How long before the attack, did Prince Vanana Zulu leave the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: It could have been a week or two, I am not quite certain. I do know that it was not less than a week, before the attack was launched.

MR BERGER: Mr Victor Mthembu has told this Committee that he saw Prince Vanana Zulu leaving the hostel to catch a taxi, during the afternoon of the 17th of June 1992.

MR MKHIZE: That was not true.

MR BERGER: Prince Zulu has left you with instructions, not to launch an attack, this is now on Boipatong, this is now a week, possibly two weeks before the actual attack on Boipatong, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: He did not issue an instruction that we should not attack on a specific date, but he asked us to wait until such time that he managed to communicate with leaders from Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Yes, now you have said a week, possibly two weeks before the attack, he had already left the hostel. My question to you is, a week possibly two weeks before the attack, you had already decided to attack Boipatong, correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, because of the suffering of the people in the hostel.

MR BERGER: Now, if Prince Vanana Zulu has told you don't launch an attack, and he leaves, and the pressure on you gets too great that you have to launch an attack because otherwise you would be killed, why did you make no attempt to discuss the situation either with members of your own committee or with any other leader of the IFP, whether in the hostel or outside, such as Mr Themba Khoza? Why did you not speak to anyone? To be clear, not to say we are going to attack, but to say there is this pressure for us to attack, what can I do, can you help me? Why didn't you do that?

MR MKHIZE: Mr Khoza was not a person who was readily available to us at any time. He is the one who usually came to us to inform us of various matters.

MR BERGER: Did you make any attempt to contact or to speak to any other leader of the IFP, either in the hostel or outside or in Johannesburg, did you make any attempt to do so?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not.

MR BERGER: Why not?

MR MKHIZE: It did not occur to me to do so. After informing the Prince, I thought that there was no other person that I should inform, he was the one who would have informed other leaders.

MR BERGER: With respect Mr Mkhize, that can't be so because he had gone on leave, he had gone home, and you knew that. He wasn't going to inform anyone?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I think I made a mistake by not thinking of telling any other leader.

MR BERGER: Would I be correct to say that in your mind, at the time you decided that you had no choice, but to launch an attack on Boipatong, it was your view that such an attack was not in the best interest of the IFP?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Despite that, you failed to call upon any other leader of the IFP, including Mr Themba Khoza for their assistance, to prevent what you knew was not in the interest of the IFP, would that be fair?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: I put it to you Mr Mkhize, that that is not correct and that, let me be specific on what is not correct, you launched that attack because you had the permission, the authority of other leaders of the IFP, including Mr Themba Khoza and you knew that the attack was sanctioned by the IFP, isn't that right?

MR MKHIZE: No, that is what you wish for, it is not so.

MR BERGER: I put it to you, let me ask you this, at the time of the attack, were you a loyal and disciplined member of the IFP?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: I put it to you that as a loyal and disciplined member of the IFP, you would not have participated in conduct which you knew, was not in the interest of the IFP, unless you had the authority from the IFP to do it?

MR MKHIZE: I did mention that I did this because of the pressure that I was experiencing.

MR BERGER: This pressure was building up over many weeks prior to the attack, correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Now, would you like to take a break Mr Mkhize, are you tired? Are you tired at the moment, would you like to take a break?

MR MKHIZE: Just continue asking your questions.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, just a point which I would like to clarify. You say that you were the leader of the AmaButho, who chose you to be the leader?

MR MKHIZE: I was actually elected by AmaButho themselves.

ADV SIGODI: If you can just clarify to this Committee, not all of us are Zulu speaking, what is a AmaButho, is it the military wing of the IFP or how do you define AmaButho?

MR MKHIZE: I would describe them as protectors, not necessarily for the IFP, but for Zulu's in general.

But we are divided in groups, when we attend ceremonial gatherings, I would lead the AmaButho.

ADV SIGODI: How many groups were there in kwaMadala hostel?

MR MKHIZE: There was just one.

ADV SIGODI: And did it consist of all the men, or how was it formed, who would be a member of AmaButho? Would it be all the men in the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: Every male person at the hostel, was part of AmaButho. There would be differentiation along the lines of youth, and senior members, but in cases where we went to rallies or maybe to ceremonial gatherings, to the king himself, we would go as one group, AmaButho.

ADV SIGODI: What were your duties as a leader of that?

MR MKHIZE: For instance, if we were going to attend a ceremonial gathering, I would advise them on what we were going to do. I would also act as a mediator if there was a quarrel amongst members of AmaButho.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Thank you. Mr Mkhize, how were the AmaButho subdivided within the hostel? You had the whole structure of the AmaButho and then how were they placed into smaller groups, if that did happen?

MR MKHIZE: It was not subdivided. There would for instance be a youth wing or maybe there would be other groups, but the entire group of men was AmaButho, they were known as AmaButho.

MR BERGER: Am I correct if I say that AmaButho is the Zulu word for warriors?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: And when warriors went into battle, was there no system of dividing them up into smaller units, or did the warriors just fight as one unit?

MR MKHIZE: It all depends on the leader. He would be the one to decide how his men would go into battle.

MR BERGER: And you as the leader of the AmaButho, did you divide your men into smaller units and each smaller unit, having a leader, who was ultimately responsible to you?

MR MKHIZE: No, there were only two groups.

MR BERGER: There were two groups of warriors in kwaMadala, is that what you are saying?

MR MKHIZE: No, I said there was only one group of AmaButho.

MR BERGER: I am not talking about on the night of the massacre, perhaps you think I am referring to that.

MR MKHIZE: No, then there was just one group.

MR BERGER: One group of AmaButho in the hostel and there were no sub-leaders, the only Commander, it was you and the AmaButho?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And there were no Regional Commanders, Area Commanders, Block Commanders, Unit Commanders?

MR MKHIZE: No, there were none.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I see it is one o'clock, perhaps this would be appropriate.

CHAIRPERSON: We will come back at half past one.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Berger? Let me warn you that we intend to rise for a short adjournment at about half past three again, so do bear that in mind.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, I will.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, if I can just interrupt, some of the people that weren't here this morning, arrived shortly after we started this morning. I can just inform you Mr Chairperson, that the following persons are here now as well, applicant 10, Tshabangu and Sipho Buthelezi.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, and in the meantime we have established that Sonny Michael Mkwanazi is apparently in Sasolburg prison and we still don't know where Tebogo Magubane is.

CHAIRPERSON: I will deal with Buthelezi and Tshabangu in due course. Proceed Mr Berger.

MS TANZER: Chairperson, if I may interrupt for a second as well. It has come to my attention during the lunch break, that my client, Mr Nosenga has been receiving threats from within and from warders, which is frightening him and the whole aspect of Truth and Reconciliation is now intimidating him.

I just want to place on record that he has been receiving threats and if the Commission can provide some kind of legal witness protection for him, as he is feeling endangered and intimidated right now.

CHAIRPERSON: That is a serious matter. Who is threatening your client?

MS TANZER: Chairperson, I have been unable to gather exactly which persons, because that also intimidates him, he doesn't want to point finger, because obviously the threat is that real, but he has since yesterday and now since the statement has been released, been receiving threats that is making him scared for his life.

He has been receiving threats at the prison, but he has also been receiving threats I understand, here in this, well in his, in the other room.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say that he is receiving threats from the prison warders?

MS TANZER: I did Chairperson. He just used the word warders, he would not point exactly which ones he was talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: Are these threats, are they only come from the prison warders?

MS TANZER: Chairperson, as I said to you, it was hard to get this information out of him. He is just sitting there, very scared and basically has indicated that you know, he has received threats and he is scared. He indicated it is from the warders, it is from locals around here.

CHAIRPERSON: From what?

MS TANZER: From locals around, people you know around. Mr Chairperson, it seems that there have been various threats, it is not one or two threats.

CHAIRPERSON: But when you say from locals around, what do you mean?

MS TANZER: As I said Mr Chairperson, he refuses to divulge too much information for the very reason that, and pointing fingers, that it could - it scared him. It has intimidated him, he would not even point to me, I asked him to point out who is threatening him, he refused to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Mr (indistinct) of the TRC Investigative Unit, here?

MR MAPOMA: No sir, I did not meet him, but the person who is here, I know is Mr Jan Olckers. That is Jan Olckers, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What are your full names sir?

MR OLCKERS: My name is Johan Olckers.

CHAIRPERSON: I gather that you are attached to the TRC Investigative Unit?

MR OLCKERS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: We have been informed by the legal representative of one of the applicants, Andries Matanzima Nosenga, that he has been and continues to receive threats and that he desires to be put onto the witness protection scheme.

Would you on behalf of this Committee, investigate the matter in the presence of his legal representative, and then come back and report to us before we rise this afternoon? If you could also after you have been investigating the matter, indicate to us what your recommendations are.

MR OLCKERS: Yes, I will do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Mr Nosenga here?

MR OLCKERS: He is placed in a room, in a back room, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you convey to your client, that we have directed that an investigation be made into the allegations with a view to determining whether or not, he should be placed on a witness protection scheme as he requires and that he should cooperate with the Investigator and to that extent, you will be excused from remaining in attendance until that matter has been sorted out. Hopefully you will report back to us before we rise, so that we can resolve the matter today if possible.

MS TANZER: Thank you, I will do that, he is actually listening right now, he is watching the television, so he is hearing the message. I will convey to him though personally, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr Berger, I gather that you intend cross-examining this applicant on the affidavit, on the sworn statement by Mr Nosenga?

MR BERGER: I do Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Does it matter that his legal representative will not be here at the moment, probably doesn't, does it?

MR BERGER: I don't think so Chairperson, because I am not going to challenge anything that is in the statement, I am rather going to confront the witness with it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. What is the feeling of other counsel?

MR DA SILVA: I don't have any objection Mr Chairman.

MS PRETORIUS: Neither do I, Mr Chairman.

MR STRYDOM: I have no objection Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have an objection?

MS TANZER: I have none.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems to me that this is a matter which has to be attended to as soon as possible. Very well, you will be excused Ma'am.

MS TANZER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you sir. I understand Mr Berger, that you are very anxious to proceed, please proceed sir.

BHEKINKOSI MKHIZE: (still under oath)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: (continued) Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mkhize, did you know that Victor Keswa was a member of the IFP youth brigade?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Do you know a person by the name of Hunter Ndlovu?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I know him.

MR BERGER: Was he also a member of the IFP youth brigade?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Was he involved in the attack on Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Is he still alive?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, he is still alive.

MR BERGER: Where is he? You don't want to answer that question?

INTERPRETER: May the question please be repeated?

MR BERGER: Where is Hunter Ndlovu now?

MR MKHIZE: I don't know where he is, I only learnt that he is somewhere around town, residing somewhere thereabout.

MR BERGER: Themba Mabote and Sipho Lukhozi were also members of the IFP youth brigade, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Paphi, did you know someone by that name, Paphi?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not recall that name.

MR BERGER: Swi?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, yes, I know him.

MR BERGER: Was he involved in the attack on Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: No. I do not quite remember.

MR BERGER: Was he a member of the IFP youth brigade?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Nzauke, do you know him?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not remember him.

MR BERGER: Perhaps it should be Mzwake? Did you know someone by that name, Mzwake?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: Ndlandla Qindi?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: You don't know anyone by that name? Surname Qindi?

MR MKHIZE: There is one Qindi that I know.

MR BERGER: Clement Qindi?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I know Ndlandla Qindi, I didn't know he is Clement.

MR BERGER: A member of the IFP youth brigade?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Was he present in the attack on Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not remember.

MR BERGER: Who are the people that you saw during the attack on Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: It was at night, and there were many of us. There is no one particular person that I can claim to remember quite well.

MR BERGER: And at the stadium, before you left to go and attack Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, it was at night I said, it was still at night, and therefore I am not in the position to say.

MR BERGER: You say you can't name anybody, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: It has been a very long time. I can only remember the people with whom we were arrested, but I cannot remember the rest.

MR BERGER: The people with whom you were arrested, were they all involved in the attack on Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, the majority of them were involved.

MR BERGER: And can you give this Committee the names of those people with whom you were arrested, who were involved in the attack on Boipatong and who were acquitted during the criminal trial?

MR MKHIZE: I do not quite remember.

MR BERGER: If I gave you the charge sheet in the criminal matter, with the list of all the accused, would you be able to go through that list, and identify those people who were involved in the attack and those who were not?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I think I can remember some of them, but surely not all of them.

MR BERGER: I will make the list available to you and if you could do that exercise please, overnight. I see that your legal representative is saying that you can't read? Is there someone who is living with you, who can assist you to read those names?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I can try to get hold of someone who can assist me.

MR BERGER: Thank you. During the lunch adjournment, I had an opportunity to read the sworn statement of Mr Nosenga, and he says in paragraph 2 of that statement that there were many meetings prior to the massacre, held at the hostel, when discussions were held about killings of ANC members.

Do you recall those meetings?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I did refer to numerous meetings that we held, trying to address the killing of our members.

MR BERGER: You must listen to me Mr Mkhize, I said the killing of ANC members. Let me read to you what Mr Nosenga says and then you can tell me if you agree or disagree.

He says there were many meetings held at the hostel, when discussions were held about killings of ANC members. The kwaMadala hostel was used by the IFP, to launch attacks on residents of the township. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: May the question please be repeated?

MR BERGER: He says there were many meetings held at the hostel. I am asking you whether this is correct or not, when discussions were held about the killings of ANC members? The kwaMadala hostel was used by the IFP to launch attacks on residents of the township.

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Next sentence, Themba Khoza chaired the IFP in the Vaal Triangle, and he was a frequent visitor at the hostel, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is not correct. He used to come, but I do not remember him being present when such matters as killing people.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, am I correct to say that you are reading the last sentence of paragraph 2?

MR BERGER: That is so, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: This is the question that is put to you, this is what Mr Nosenga says in his statement, Themba Khoza chaired IFP in the Vaal Triangle, and he was a frequent visitor at the hostel. There is no suggestion that he took part in the discussions to kill people. That is all that you are being asked at this stage.

MR BERGER: I don't dispute that, I believe is the translation? I didn't hear anything, I got it from my colleague.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there an extra statement so that we can make it available to the Interpreters? Very well.

MR BERGER: Just for the record Mr Mkhize, is it correct that you said that that last sentence is correct, that Themba Khoza chaired the IFP in the Vaal Triangle and he was a frequent visitor at the hostel, just that sentence, is it correct?

MR MKHIZE: I did not say that. I said he was a leader of the IFP in the Transvaal, not in the Vaal Triangle.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkhize, please listen to the question. What Counsel is asking you about, he is asking you about the statement made by Mr Nosenga.

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: You must answer the questions that are being put to you.

MR MKHIZE: May you please repeat the question?

MR BERGER: The question is, I want you please to comment on this sentence, is it correct or not correct, Themba Khoza chaired the IFP in the Vaal Triangle and he was a frequent visitor at the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: That is a mistake.

MR BERGER: Where is the mistake?

MR MKHIZE: It is not true that he frequented the hostel and that he was Chairperson of the IFP in the Vaal.

MR BERGER: Who was the Chairperson of the IFP in the Vaal at the time?

MR MKHIZE: The one person I knew to have been Chairperson of everybody or the IFP in the Vaal, was Mr Vanana Zulu.

MR BERGER: And who was his senior within IFP structures?

MR MKHIZE: I would not know, except that he was the one who was high up, above us all.

MR BERGER: Mr Mkhize, you do know. You know that above Mr Vanana Zulu, was Mr Themba Khoza, don't you?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I know that.

MR BERGER: Well, then why do you waste time and say you don't know?

MR MKHIZE: I am saying here in the Vaal, I am talking about the Vaal. I know that Khoza was the Senior Supreme, but I am talking about the Vaal. I don't know what position Mr Zulu was in relation to other people.

MR BERGER: You have just told the Committee that Mr Vanana Zulu was the supreme leader in the Vaal, you said he chaired the IFP in the Vaal, that is the supreme leader, is it not?

MR MKHIZE: I still maintain that is the case.

MR BERGER: And then above him would be Mr Themba Khoza for the Transvaal?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And Mr Themba Khoza used to come to the hostel, kwaMadala hostel on a number of occasions?

MR MKHIZE: He did not come often.

MR BERGER: He came to the hostel three days before the massacre, did he not?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: Let me read to you what one of your co-applicants says, page 8 of the bundle, paragraph 11. On the Sunday before the Boipatong massacre, Themba Khoza and Dlamini came to address the meeting of the people in the stadium.

Other residents of the kwaMadala hostel were present. Only the men of the kwaMadala hostel were present. Dlamini was accompanied by a member of the kwaZulu police, Gabelo, who was his bodyguard. Did that not happen?

MR MKHIZE: No. Dlamini is actually the one person who used to come to the hostel, but then he was not a frequent visitor, he would come maybe once or twice a week, or maybe one week would lapse without him coming, and he would come thereafter, because he was a resident around here, in Vereeniging.

MR BERGER: I am reading from the affidavit of Mr Victor Mthembu, paragraph 12. He says that Dlamini first opened this meeting, this was on the Sunday, it would be the 14th of March 1992, 14th of June, I beg your pardon, 1992. He said there was a meeting because our people were dying.

They were being killed by the ANC people and Umkhonto weSizwe, do you remember that meeting?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: Dlamini said this problem must be reported to Buthelezi. He said the people had no transport to go to work, as all their taxi's were being hijacked by the ANC, and the people could not go to work. This Buthelezi that is being referred to, is Chief Mangosuthu Buthelezi.

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is reference to the Chief Minister, Mr Mangosuthu Buthelezi.

MR BERGER: You were at the hostel on Sunday the 14th of June 1992, were you not?

MR MKHIZE: My problem is that I have lost count of the date, and therefore I cannot dispute some of these dates, but yes, I do not remember quite well.

MR BERGER: I am talking about three days before the massacre, when you were preparing for war.

MR MKHIZE: Was Dlamini present in that meeting? No, I do not agree with that.

MR BERGER: When did you take a decision that Boipatong would be attacked?

MR MKHIZE: On that very same day, that is on the 17th.

MR BERGER: You did not take the decision before the 17th?

MR MKHIZE: There is one other meeting that we held, but we did not decide as to which date we should, on which date we should launch the attack.

MR BERGER: When did you decide that you were going to attack Boipatong? Not of the date, but when did you decide that you would go ahead with an attack?

MR MKHIZE: It was on the 17th.

CHAIRPERSON: We know that on the 17th you took the, you decided that you must now proceed to Boipatong and launch the attack. What Counsel wants to find out, when was the decision in principle to attack Boipatong, taken? Is that your question?

MR BERGER: Indeed yes.

MR MKHIZE: Even though I cannot quite remember very well, but I think it must have been the following day after the last meeting.

MR BERGER: How many days before the attack, did you take a decision in principle that Boipatong would be attacked?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember quite well really, I cannot remember how many days lapsed.

CHAIRPERSON: The question to you is, on the 17th you went to attack Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Before the 17th, was there already a decision that Boipatong was going to be attacked?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I understand it.

CHAIRPERSON: The legal representative wants to know when the decision to launch the attack, was taken.

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is exactly what I am saying, I cannot remember the day of the week, or how many days lapsed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, was it a week or two weeks?

MR MKHIZE: I think it was one week.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have the answer? Yes.

MR BERGER: You see a lot of your colleagues talk about a meeting on the 10th of June, do you remember that meeting, a week before the attack?

MR MKHIZE: I cannot remember very well, but I know there was not only one meeting held.

MR BERGER: There was a meeting round about the 3rd of June 1992, there would have been a meeting on the 10th of June 1992, there would have been a meeting on the Sunday, the 14th of June 1992 and then there would have been the meeting in the stadium, on the 17th of June 1992. Would that be correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I would concur with that.

MR BERGER: And you had about a week or six days, in which to prepare for the attack on Boipatong, correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: If Themba Khoza came to the stadium, I beg your pardon, to kwaMadala hostel on Sunday the 14th of March 1992, as Mr Victor Mthembu says he did, you would then have had an opportunity to speak with him, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: The month that my learned colleague referred to was March.

MR BERGER: I am sorry, I don't know why I am obsessed with March. June, Sunday the 14th of June 1992. Let me try and refresh your memory about what happened at that meeting.

After Mr Dlamini had addressed the meeting, Mr Themba Khoza says Mr Victor Mthembu, also addressed the meeting. Themba Khoza he says, was angry at the killing of his people and he says if the people come and attack you, you are supposed to fight back and kill them.

Do you remember that meeting now?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not. I do not recall a meeting where Mr Themba Khoza indicted to us that we should fight back.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga in his affidavit, page 19, paragraph 5, talks about the meeting approximately two weeks before the massacre, we are talking about roundabout the 3rd of June 1992. He says that this meeting was in a big hall, lots of people there and he says Themba Khoza was at that meeting. He also says that there were some policemen at the meeting, and he mentions Mr Peens and a certain Dani. Is he correct?

MR MKHIZE: No. I do not remember that.

MR BERGER: Did you know Mr Peens, do you know Mr Peens?

MR MKHIZE: No. I don't know him, except maybe I just know him by sight because I know several policemen.

MR BERGER: He says that Themba Khoza and Mr Peens, this is Mr Pedro Peens, chaired the meeting, and that Mtwana Zulu, that would be Prince Vanana Zulu, was also there.

He says that Darkie, a leader of the IFP, was also there. You know Darkie, don't you?

MR MKHIZE: Are you referring to Darkie Qunchu, if that is the one, I know him.

MR BERGER: Kachene, an Induna, do you know him?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I know Kachene.

MR BERGER: Was he an Induna?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: Was he a member of the IFP?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: What is his surname?

MR MKHIZE: It is Ndlovu. Ndlovu is his surname and Kachene is his praise name.

MR BERGER: And what other name does he go by, his first name?

MR MKHIZE: I don't know his real name, we used to call him Kachene, that is all.

MR BERGER: Is he one of your co-applicants?

MR MKHIZE: No, he is not part of the applicants.

MR BERGER: Was he accused in the criminal trial?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga says that at this meeting, the hostel residents were told that people were needed to go to Boipatong to kill the dogs.

MR MKHIZE: I don't want to involve myself in this Nosenga issue, really.

MR BERGER: Well you see Mr Mkhize, I am putting this to you so that you will have an opportunity to comment on what Mr Nosenga says. If you don't want to comment, that is also fine, just say I don't want to comment and I will move on.

Also at this meeting, Themba Khoza said that a certain insect should be killed and he was referring to the Boipatong residents? Do you have any comment?

MR MKHIZE: No. There is nothing I know to that effect.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga says that Peens also spoke at that meeting, he spoke in Afrikaans, it was translated for the residents. Do you remember a policeman speaking in Afrikaans at that meeting?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember a single police present at the meeting. I do not recall any policeman present at our meetings at kwaMadala.

MR BERGER: I won't go through all the details, but save to say that Mr Nosenga talks about the police saying, or Mr Peens saying that the police would supply you with caspirs, you the residents with caspirs and weapons and that the police would assist you during an attack?

Are you saying that that never happened?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: What are you saying?

MR MKHIZE: I say I know nothing about that.

MR BERGER: Well you were there at that meeting, two weeks before the attack and you say Themba Khoza wasn't there and Pedro Peens wasn't there either, correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: In your, what preparations did you make for the attack in the six days that you had at your disposal, what did you do to prepare the attack?

MR MKHIZE: We had to get arms, that is all. There was nothing else to do, there was no other preparation to be made really.

MR BERGER: So you gave instructions to Damara Qunchu to get arms, to go and buy arms, is that right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, but we already had some of the firearms.

MR BERGER: But you had to get more?

MR MKHIZE: No, there was no need to (indistinct) the firearms.

MR BERGER: Well then, what did you do in the six days before the attack, you said you had to get arms, where did you get them from?

MR MKHIZE: I did say earlier on that one person who had knowledge about firearms, was Mr Qunchu himself.

MR BERGER: And did he go and get arms, and if so, from where?

MR MKHIZE: I am saying he is the one who had knowledge as to where to find firearms, I don't know where he found them really.

MR BERGER: So all you did was you said Damara, we need arms, go and get arms and he went on his way and got the arms, is that what you are saying?

MR MKHIZE: There were already firearms.

MR BERGER: Where?

MR MKHIZE: At the hostel, at kwaMadala hostel.

MR BERGER: So you said to him Damara, go and get all the arms in the hostel, is that what you said?

MR MKHIZE: We already had firearms where we resided at the hostel.

MR BERGER: I am sorry, I am being very obtuse, all you said to him was go and fetch the arms which are hidden in the hostel and he went about his business, is that what happened?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, we already had firearms at the hostel.

MR BERGER: You know you were asked questions about weapons in this request for further particulars, on page 68 in particular, question 19. You were asked did you have an AK47 automatic rifle on the evening of the 17th of June and your answer was yes. It was in the hostel. I didn't see when Damara Qunchu arrived, but he was responsible to organise weapons, including AK47's.

You were asked where did you get this weapon, 19.1. You didn't answer that as far as I can see. You were asked in question 19.2, did Mr Damara Qunchu bring weapons to the hostel in a vehicle, a blue Nissan Skyline. I am not sure if you answered that question because you said you didn't see when he arrived.

I will ask you again, did Mr Damara Qunchu go out of the hostel to organise guns?

CHAIRPERSON: At what stage Mr Berger? He has told us previously that whenever they wanted arms, they would collect money, give it to Damara Qunchu to go and buy the arms, he didn't know where they were bought from.

What is the stage that you are talking about?

MR BERGER: Between the time when you decided that you needed arms to launch an attack on Boipatong, we are talking about six days before the attack, or after the meeting of the 10th of June, seven days before the attack. Between that time, the 10th of June and the 17th of June, did Mr Damara Qunchu leave the hostel and return with guns in a blue Nissan Skyline?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember very well, but yes, he used to use a blue Skyline.

MR BERGER: Besides giving an instruction to Mr Qunchu to say go and get the arms, what other preparations did you make for the attack?

MR MKHIZE: We did not make any other preparation. There was no need for any other preparation because we already had firearms.

MR BERGER: Well there was a need Mr Mkhize, let me give you some examples.

You had to plan the route for one, you had to plan the targets for two, where would you attack the SDU's. You didn't plan any of that, routes or targets?

MR MKHIZE: We knew too that we were going to find the Self Defence Units in the townships, that is all. We knew that.

MR BERGER: And the route to Boipatong, you were just going to go out the main gate and walk to Boipatong? That was what you had decided?

MR MKHIZE: We took the route to the township, we know the route to the township.

CHAIRPERSON: We know that you just walked to Boipatong, but what Counsel is asking you is, did you not plan where you were going to get the SDU and which route you were going to follow to get to them? Did you not plan that beforehand?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, we did plan those because we knew that they used to patrol at the entrance. That is where they used to put up barricades.

MR BERGER: When you say we planned, it is you and Mr Damara Qunchu, no one else?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: What about the guards at the main gate of kwaMadala hostel? Surely they were going to be suspicious when a couple of hundred armed men leave the hostel, after nightfall? Did you arrange with them what was going to happen?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: What about the Vaal Commando? You knew, I am sure, I will ask you, did you know that the Vaal Commando patrolled the street outside the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: No. I did not have that knowledge, except to say we had knowledge to the fact that there were some police who used to patrol the streets.

MR BERGER: Police and military vehicles used to patrol the area around the hostel, around ISCOR, around kwaMadala, around Boipatong. You knew that, didn't you?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, we did have that information.

MR BERGER: What made you think that several hundred armed men moving out of the main gate, along the main road to Boipatong, were not going to be stopped by either members of the army or by members of the police? How did you think you could do that with impunity?

MR MKHIZE: It just did not occur to us. It did not occur to me as well.

MR BERGER: Mr Mkhize, you are the Commander of a military unit, a fighting unit. You are leading a couple of hundred armed men out to commit murder, and it never occurs to you that the police might catch you in the act, it never occurs to you?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, it did not occur to me.

MR BERGER: I will tell you why it did not occur to you Mr Mkhize, because you already had assurances from the police that not only would you not be stopped on your way to commit murder, but that you would be assisted?

MR MKHIZE: That is not true.

MR BERGER: On the 14th of June, this is now the Sunday before the attack, says Mr Nosenga, paragraph 8, page 19, he also says there was a meeting at the hostel and he says that at this meeting, it was decided that the attack should take place on the 17th of June 1992. Is he correct?

MR MKHIZE: No, I cannot remember.

MR BERGER: Well then why do you say he is not correct? We know that there was a meeting on the 14th of June, Mr Mthembu says so as well.

This is the Sunday, three days before the attack there was a meeting at the hostel, we know that, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: I do not disagree with the fact that there was a meeting on that day, but all I am saying is that I have lost count of the dates during which certain things happened.

MR BERGER: We know from your own evidence that by the Sunday, you had already taken a decision to attack Boipatong, correct?

MR MKHIZE: Will you please repeat the question?

MR BERGER: We know from you that by the Sunday, you had already taken a decision to attack Boipatong, the 14th, by the 14th?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And is it not correct that on the Sunday, you told the residents that the attack would take place on the Wednesday, the 17th?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: Why didn't you tell the residents that?

MR MKHIZE: I told them on the day of the attack.

MR BERGER: My question to you is, why at this meeting on the Sunday, did you not tell the hostel residents on Wednesday, three days from now, we will go and attack Boipatong, get yourselves ready? Why didn't you do that?

MR MKHIZE: It was not easy. This is not something to be done in advance, they ought not to have been informed in advance, because the information would leak and we might end up being arrested.

MR BERGER: The information would leak to the police and you might end up being arrested, is that what you thought at the time?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: But you never thought that the police would arrest you on your way to Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: No, it did not occur to me.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga says that at that meeting on the Sunday, the residents were told that in this attack on Boipatong, everyone was going to be killed, women and children included?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember that.

MR BERGER: I am not going to go through the further particulars of that meeting, save to say that he says that at meeting, there were no police officers present.

Were you an Induna Mr Mkhize?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: During the criminal trial, you will remember that Prince Vanana Zulu gave evidence and at page 3126 of the criminal record, he was asked the following question: Accused 9 and that was you at the trial, told the Court that there in the hostel, he is an Induna, Mr Mkhize, and Prince Vanana Zulu's answer was no, I don't know him as an Induna.

Do you dispute that?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I dispute that. I am an Induna at the hostel.

MR BERGER: Prince Vanana Zulu also was asked, or he said that you were correct when you told the Court that you took over certain functions from him, the functions that he had previously fulfilled in the hostel, you took over from him? That is correct is it not?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: That is what he said at the trial. What he also said at the trial, he was asked the question can Mr Mkhize, this is now accused 9, on his own, can he take decisions in the hostel about when a meeting should be held. I hope I have translated it correctly. I am getting the nod, so my translation is right.

He was asked that question and his answer was no, telling the Court that you had no authority to decide on your own when meetings in the hostel would be called, is that right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And that would mean that you had no authority in IFP structures, you had no authority from the IFP to call a meeting of the hostel, on your own, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And so are you therefore saying that when you called the meeting in the stadium on the evening of the 17th of June 1992, prior to the attack on Boipatong, you had no authority from the IFP to call that meeting, correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct, but then the Prince was not present.

MR BERGER: Even in the absence of the Prince, you had no authority, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And everybody who attended the meeting, would have known that, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga goes on, page 20 paragraph 9, to say on the day of the attack, we alerted by a trumpet signal at about six to seven o'clock. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: We gathered at the stadium at the hostel area, correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: When Themba Khoza arrived at the hostel, he gave certain commands to the Indunas who informed us that Khoza had obtained the guns and some of them were from Peens. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is not true.

MR BERGER: He says that Peens came to the hostel on the day of the attack, together with his colleague Shaka. Did you see Mr Peens at the hostel on the day of the attack, this was now before the attack, I would assume?

MR MKHIZE: I did say that I don't know that Mr Peens.

MR BERGER: Did you see any white man at the hostel on the day of the attack?

MR MKHIZE: I did say that I do not remember any meeting being held in the presence of a white person.

MR BERGER: I am not talking about a meeting now, I am talking about the simple presence of a white man who arrived in a white Opel Monza on the day of the attack, at the hostel.

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: He says he came with his colleague, a policeman by the name of Shaka. Did you know a black policeman by the name of Shaka?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: And he says that on that day, he saw Peens hand over money to Victor Keswa. From that I infer and I am asking you, that Victor Keswa was indeed present at the hostel on the 17th of June 1992?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not remember really.

MR BERGER: You say you do not remember, but do I take it when you say that, it means you cannot dispute as well?

MR MKHIZE: I disagree with that statement, I do not recall seeing Keswa on that day.

MR BERGER: But you do not dispute that Keswa was there, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: I disagree with that.

MR BERGER: He goes on in paragraph 11 to say that at the stadium, we were told that if we drank muti, we would become brave and strong. We drank and also poured muti on our weapons. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: It was a medicine called Ntelezi. This medicine is the kind of medicine that we use often times at the hostel.

MR BERGER: What is the Ntelezi used for?

MR MKHIZE: When AmaButho goes out for whatever reason, we use this. We still use this Ntelezi even now.

MR BERGER: Is it not correct that the Ntelezi is used to make the AmaButho brave so that they will be protected and do well in war, isn't that what it is for?

MR MKHIZE: That is our belief as Zulu's.

MR BERGER: And in fact, that was your belief on the night and the Ntelezi was used, it was drank and it was also poured or sprinkled over the weapons, is that right?

MR MKHIZE: I am saying that any instance where AmaButho would have to go out, we use this Ntelezi.

MR BERGER: I am asking you about the night of the attack, on that night, did the residents drink Ntelezi?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is what I am saying.

MR BERGER: And did they sprinkle the Ntelezi or pour the Ntelezi over their weapons?

MR MKHIZE: We only sprinkle it.

MR BERGER: There were a number of people who were given AK47's, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I think so.

MR BERGER: There were also people with revolvers and shotguns?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I think so, even though it was night, I am not in the position to specifically indicate who was carrying what kind of a weapon. I think yes, that was the case.

MR BERGER: And we know that there were also spears and axes?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Then he says we all left by feet in the direction of the township, that is also correct, is it not?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: And he says we were about 100 people. Most of us were from the hostel, but I believe that there were some people from Natal amongst the attackers. Correct or not?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, the majority of us came from Natal, that is why we resided at the hostel.

MR BERGER: Some of the attackers were wearing red head bands, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Not some of them, all of them.

MR BERGER: Isn't it that some were wearing red and some were wearing white or am I wrong?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember quite well, but I remember using red head bands, but yes, all of us were wearing head bands, I cannot remember whether there were some white head bands. I don't want to agree with you when you say there were white head bands used as well, no.

MR BERGER: It is not me who says that, it is Victor Mthembu who says that. I will move on. He says we walked on the road and passed under the bridge, which is located a few minutes' walk from the hostel, that is correct, is it not?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: When we came out on the big open field before the township, I saw four to six caspirs parked on the field. Your comment?

MR MKHIZE: I did say earlier on that I saw only one caspir, it was just driving passed.

I don't know anything about two or three or four caspirs.

MR BERGER: It is correct that you came out into a big open field before you entered Boipatong, am I right? After you passed under the bridge, you came out into an open field? Just before? Isn't it that you went behind the nursery and then you moved towards the lower side of Boipatong, or is that not the way it happened?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not recall that.

MR BERGER: Where do you say you entered Boipatong, do you say it was at the top of Boipatong not at the bottom?

When I talk about the top, I mean along that road where the factories are, Cape Gate and all of those factories, you entered Boipatong from that side?

MR MKHIZE: If you are following the route from Vanderbijl, I would say yes, that is the route that we took to gain our entry.

MR BERGER: You have told the Court that you know where Umzimvubu Street is, right, the Committee?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Did you enter Boipatong along Umzimvubu Street?

MR MKHIZE: No, further down. It was further down Umzimvubu Street.

MR BERGER: You spoke about a caspir that you saw whilst you were moving towards Boipatong, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Do you remember what colour caspir it was, or what type of caspir?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember. I cannot remember whether it was a military caspir or a police caspir, I cannot recall really, it was at night.

MR BERGER: And this caspir was moving alone, would it be Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, the main road that separates kwaMadala hostel from Boipatong, is that the road that the caspir was moving along?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And moving in which direction, moving towards...

MR MKHIZE: It headed towards Sebokeng.

MR BERGER: In other words up towards the top of Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And weren't you afraid that you might get caught?

MR MKHIZE: I did indicate earlier on that this did not occur to me. I think you are asking me this question for the second time now.

MR BERGER: Yes, I am asking you now, when you saw this caspir, you were still not afraid that you might get caught, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: We did think that it might be possible for us to be arrested, but the caspir proceeded on. Had it stopped, yes, we could have concluded that now we were going to get arrested, but the caspir did not stop at all.

MR BERGER: I put it to you that the caspirs were there, that in fact, there was more than one caspir, and that in fact, members of the AmaButho, some of them, actually got into the caspir and were transported into Boipatong. Isn't that what happened?

MR MKHIZE: No, that is not correct.

MR BERGER: Do you know a policeman by the name of Rooikop?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I know him.

MR BERGER: What is his real name?

MR MKHIZE: I only know him to be Rooikop.

MR BERGER: Is this a black or a white policeman?

MR MKHIZE: He is a white one. I know a white one.

MR BERGER: With red hair?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Is he thin or is he fat?

MR MKHIZE: He is stout, not very big.

MR BERGER: Now, Rubin, do you know someone by the name of Rubin?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: That is Rubin Tebogo Magubane, correct, applicant 3?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: He was present during the attack, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Kachene?

MR MKHIZE: I did say earlier on that I do not remember Kachene.

MR BERGER: You don't know who that person is, or you don't remember if he was there during the attack?

MR MKHIZE: I did say that I know Kachene, My Lord, but all I am saying is that I cannot remember whether he was present on the day of the attack or not.

MR BERGER: Themba Kubeka?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I know him.

MR BERGER: Was he present during the attack?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Is that Sthembiso Kubeka?

MR MKHIZE: He is Sthembiso's brother. He died.

MR BERGER: Lucky, do you know who Lucky is?

MR MKHIZE: Lucky who?

MR BERGER: Do you know Lucky Stikenawu?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I know him.

MR BERGER: He was there during the attack, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I think so.

MR BERGER: His real names are Sonny Michael Mkwanazi, applicant 7?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know his real names really.

MR BERGER: Sipho, do you know Sipho?

MR MKHIZE: Sipho who?

MR BERGER: I don't have a surname.

MR MKHIZE: There are two Sipho's that I know.

MR BERGER: The one is Sipho Buthelezi, right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And the other one?

MR MKHIZE: The other one is Sipho Lukhozi.

MR BERGER: And that is Sipho Thomas Lukhozi?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: And both of them were present during the massacre, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I think so.

MR BERGER: Makuka, do you know someone by that name?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I know Makuka.

MR BERGER: What are his full names?

MR MKHIZE: I don't know his names, I just know him to be Makuka.

MR BERGER: Is he now deceased?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Do you know where he died?

MR MKHIZE: No. On coming back from home, I learnt that he had died.

MR BERGER: And he was present during the massacre, correct?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember.

MR BERGER: Tsamo. Do you know Tsamo?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not remember that one, I don't think I know him.

MR BERGER: Dondo?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I know him.

MR BERGER: He was present during the massacre?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I think he was present.

MR BERGER: That is Jack Mbele, applicant 6, correct?

MR MKHIZE: Jack Mbele is Dondo.

MR BERGER: And Makheze? Do you know Makheze?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, it is half past three.

CHAIRPERSON: We will rise now and come back at ten to four.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

BHEKINKOSI MKHIZE: (still under oath)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: (continued) Mr Mkhize, I take it that you deny that there were any policemen involved in the attack on Boipatong? You deny that there were any caspirs involved in the attack on Boipatong and you deny that there were any people wearing balaclavas who took part in the attack on Boipatong, would that be right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is so.

MR BERGER: If there had been caspirs involved in transporting some of the attackers to Boipatong, you would have seen that, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I would have seen them.

MR BERGER: If there had been policemen involved, or whites involved, or people wearing balaclavas, you would have seen them, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And so the fact that you did not see any of this, means that they were not there, correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: I want to put it to you that you are not telling the truth with the Committee and that there were in fact policemen involved, there were whites involved, there were people wearing balaclavas, whites wearing balaclavas and there were caspirs which transported attackers to the township. You don't wish to comment?

MR MKHIZE: My intention to come before this Committee is to seek amnesty and therefore would have no reason to hide any information if I had it. I would have no reason to fear anybody including the policemen. If there were policemen involved, I would say so.

As I have already mentioned that I was present, I was armed with an AK47 and I do not know why I will be afraid to divulge information if I had it. I am here to tell the Committee, to inform the Committee of what I saw and what I know. Therefore I cannot say that the police were there if I did not see them.

MR BERGER: You have every reason not to tell the truth Mr Mkhize, because if you do tell the truth, you fear that something will happen to you, something bad will happen to you. We have seen with Mr Nosenga. He has made an affidavit which sets out the truth, he is being threatened with his life.

Isn't that what you fear?

MR MKHIZE: No, it is not what I fear. I don't even want to involve myself in Nosenga's issue, because I don't even know him.

MR BERGER: Two of the policemen who gave evidence at the Goldstone Commission about police involvement in the attack, are dead today. That is the reason that you are not telling the truth. You are too scared to tell the truth and you are too scared to tell this Committee that that is the reason, isn't that right?

MR MKHIZE: I am not afraid of anything. I do not fear anything, I would say if there were policemen involved. I don't really understand what I would be fearing.

MR BERGER: You do know that you can be put into a witness protection programme if you tell the truth, if you fear for your life? You know that?

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat.

MR BERGER: You can be put into a witness protection programme if you are fearing for your life, you know that?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not know that. With regards to what you are discussing here, there is nothing that I am afraid of. I would not fear to divulge that the police were present if they were.

MR BERGER: Are you not afraid of Prince Vanana Zulu?

MR MKHIZE: No. Would I be afraid that maybe he would assault me?

MR BERGER: While we are on the subject of Prince Vanana Zulu, is it not correct that he was in fact part of the attack, that he was in Boipatong during the massacre?

MR MKHIZE: I have already told you that he was absent.

MR BERGER: What do you know about women who were raped during the massacre?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know anything about that.

MR BERGER: During the criminal trial, Lucky Stikenawu, Sonny Michael Mkwanazi, was asked the following question at page 3499 - he was asked, Gobi also said that on the 18th of June, that would have been the day after the massacre, you had a conversation with him and you told him that the previous night you had raped somebody in Boipatong. Do you remember that evidence at the criminal trial?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not remember.

MR BERGER: That Lucky had said to someone who gave evidence for the State, that he had raped somebody in Boipatong, you don't remember that?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember that.

MR BERGER: Did any of your men brag after the massacre that they had raped women in Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not remember anyone doing that. I did not get to hear of it.

MR BERGER: Would it surprise you, does it surprise you that women were allegedly raped in Boipatong during the massacre?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, it would surprise me.

MR BERGER: Did you give instructions that women should not be raped?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not. It was not something that would happen, if you go out to attack, you would also engage in raping women.

MR BERGER: Did you give instructions that there should be no looting?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not.

MR BERGER: Is that also unusual?

MR MKHIZE: Normally when you are engaged in fighting, there is no time to be also engaged in looting.

MR BERGER: So did it surprise you to learn that there was large scale looting during the massacre?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, it did surprise me when I heard that some people's property had been looted.

MR BERGER: Did you give any instructions that women and children and old people should not be harmed during the attack?

MR MKHIZE: Even though there was no direct instruction to that effect, the people that we had actually targeted were SDU members, who I suppose were not children and were not elderly people.

MR BERGER: Did you give any instructions that no property should be damaged during the attack?

MR MKHIZE: We did not discuss property, we did not discuss people's property when we were actually discussing the attack.

MR BERGER: You say it surprised you that people plundered and looted property during the attack, that surprised you, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is what I said.

MR BERGER: Why do you say in your statement, on page 77 at the bottom, that you gave the instruction to plunder?

MR MKHIZE: This must have been a mistake.

MR BERGER: Oh no, let me read to you what you said in your statement. An instruction was given by me, to break the windows of the houses, and to loot and plunder.

You confirmed this statement this morning.

MR MKHIZE: I do not have knowledge thereof, I did not instruct anybody to break windows.

MR BERGER: Just as you didn't instruct anybody to rape and just as you did not instruct anybody to kill women and children and old people, just the same?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I didn't do it.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct that anyone and anything, no matter how old, how young, anyone was a target in Boipatong? Wasn't that the order when the attack began?

MR MKHIZE: No, that was not the instruction. The people that we targeted in Boipatong, were SDU's. I do not dispute that other people were also injured, because as it happened, it was dark and we could not see clearly who was who.

MR BERGER: You don't dispute that there were IFP members living in Boipatong, who were injured or killed during the attack? You don't dispute that?

MR MKHIZE: I do dispute that. There was no IFP member residing in Boipatong at that time, because people had been killed and some of them had even fled the area, they had actually fled to kwaMadala hostel.

I don't believe that there was any IFP member living in the area at the time.

MR BERGER: Themba Khoza the leader of the IFP in the Transvaal said both during the criminal trial, and in press statements immediately after the attack, that there were IFP members and supporters living in Boipatong and it was ludicrous to think that the IFP could be responsible for an attack on their own people.

Was Mr Khoza not telling the truth when he said that there were IFP members living in Boipatong and sympathizers?

MR MKHIZE: I would not be able to dispute that, that must have been his knowledge, but as far as I know, there were no IFP people living in Boipatong at that time.

He must have been referring to something that he knew.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct Mr Mkhize, that there was no way in which you and the other attackers could say as you rampaged through Boipatong and Slovo Park, could say whether that particular person was a member of the ANC, a sympathiser of the ANC, a member of the IFP, a member of the SDU, you just didn't know. You went through the township, killing everyone and anyone who didn't have a red or white band around their forehead, isn't that in reality what happened?

MR MKHIZE: What I am saying is that there was no IFP member living in Boipatong at that time. What I did mention also, was that there was no control at that time, when the attack took place.

MR BERGER: And that is because an order was given to kill everyone and anyone in Boipatong, in fact to destroy the entire township, isn't that what the order was?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know how many times do I have to repeat myself.

MR BERGER: Well, when you got into Boipatong, you fired you say in your statement, at a Self Defence Unit near the shops. Am I right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Did they fire back at you?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And then did you run after them as they ran away?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, we did chase after them, but we could not catch up with them.

MR BERGER: Where did they run to?

MR MKHIZE: Towards Slovo Park.

MR BERGER: So then why did you and your men start destroying houses and going into houses in Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: I said I do not know about that, because that happened because people were out of control, you could no longer control them.

MR BERGER: But you too, you also went through the township? You were moving through the township and you were firing as you moved through the township, isn't that right?

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat the question.

MR BERGER: You yourself, were moving through Boipatong and you were firing as you were going along. Were you also out of control?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: At page 78 you say, a third of the way down, you said it was dark and we were many. We moved through the residential area and there was sporadic gunfire. You yourself were going through, is that right, shooting as you went?

MR MKHIZE: I said I actually fired when I saw people near the shop, but I did not shoot at random in the streets.

MR BERGER: So you only fired at the shops, is that all?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is right. I would say yes, I did shoot near the shops and although I cannot remember if that was the only time, I cannot remember firing at any other point.

MR BERGER: And you don't know if you killed anybody?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not.

MR BERGER: You never fired any shots in Slovo Park?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I did fire when we were at Slovo Park.

MR BERGER: You never saw any dead people in Slovo Park?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not.

MR BERGER: You only learnt the following day that people had died during the attack, you did not know that night that people had been killed?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: I want to read to you what you said in your statement to the police, Exhibit E. You said we were a big group - let me start at page 4 - you are talking about being at the stadium and you talk about a person Situndwa Zulu. Who is Situndwa Zulu?

MR MKHIZE: I don't remember such a person.

MR BERGER: Who is Samsondwase Ngema?

MR MKHIZE: Samson?

MR BERGER: Samsondwase Ngema? You don't know?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know him.

MR BERGER: You say in your statement page 5, that I had an AK47 with me with a magazine which was full of AK47 bullets, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: In other words, this is the truth what I have just read?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is so.

MR BERGER: You also say page 5, that you left the stadium and you went across the road, you crossed the road which runs next to the hostel, to where the houses begin, which is correct, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Then you say when we came to the houses, those who had assegai's went into the houses, to stab the people. Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: It is the truth?

MR MKHIZE: I think so, although a long time has elapsed since.

MR BERGER: Then you say I and the others who waited outside, shot at those people from the houses, who ran outside and were trying to run away.

So what you are saying is some AmaButho with spears, went into the houses to stab the people and as the people were coming out of the houses to run away, you and others stood there with your AK47's, and shot at them. That is the truth, isn't that?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: So it is not true that you only fired shots at the shops and in Slovo Park?

MR MKHIZE: I did also say that I also fired with my firearm when we were going towards Slovo Park.

MR BERGER: You say in the statement that you fired five shots with your AK47 at people who were running away? Is that true?

MR MKHIZE: I don't think it was five times. It could have been more.

MR BERGER: Did you empty your magazine in Boipatong and Slovo Park?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: How did the attack come to an end, how did you know that the attack was ending?

MR MKHIZE: When we assembled at Slovo Park, we just turned back and returned home.

MR BERGER: Hundreds of you in Slovo Park?

MR MKHIZE: I beg your pardon?

MR BERGER: All the AmaButho finally got to Slovo Park, is that what you are saying, and then you turned back?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, we returned to the hostel thereafter.

MR BERGER: But you hadn't attacked the whole of Boipatong, certain areas were left out, why?

MR MKHIZE: We realised that if we were to continue, we would end up being arrested.

MR BERGER: And when did you realise this?

MR MKHIZE: When we assembled at Slovo Park, we decided that we should actually return to the hostel.

MR BERGER: It suddenly dawned on you after an hour to an hour and a half, that the police might come and arrest you?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that occurred to us.

MR BERGER: On your way back to kwaMadala, did you see any police or army vehicles?

MR MKHIZE: The problem with you is that you ask me one and the same question. I did say that I only saw one car.

MR BERGER: The problem Mr Mkhize is that you don't listen to my question. My question is as you were moving back to kwaMadala, did you see any police or army vehicles? The vehicle that you spoke about was the vehicle that you saw when you were moving towards Boipatong.

MR MKHIZE: I said I saw that vehicle on our way back. It was proceeding towards Sebokeng. I did not say I saw it on our way to Boipatong.

MR BERGER: So if that vehicle had stopped, the one that you saw on your way back, if it had stopped, then you would have done what, because I remember your answer before was, if the vehicle had stopped, then we wouldn't have continued to go and attack? Please explain what you would have done if it stopped?

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't, he didn't say that. He said we would have run away. We would have known that we would be arrested.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, my recollection of the witness' evidence is that on their way to Boipatong, they saw this vehicle moving along Frikkie Meyer Boulevard. If the vehicle had stopped, they would have known that they would have been arrested, they wouldn't have continued going towards Boipatong. The vehicle continued driving.

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't add the part that you are adding.

MR BERGER: The witness said that they were on their way to Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: His original evidence was that he saw this motor vehicle when they were on their way, that is what he said initially.

MR BERGER: Not on their way to Boipatong?

CHAIRPERSON: That was his initial evidence. Under cross-examination when there was a confusion, when he said this motor vehicle was proceeding towards Sebokeng I think it was, and it was put to him that they were on their way to Boipatong.

MR BERGER: And he said yes? Anyway, it is on record. Mr Mkhize, then to clarify, is it your evidence that on your way from kwaMadala to Boipatong, you saw no vehicles, no army, no police vehicles as you were approaching Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct. I did not see any vehicle. I did not see any army vehicle, nor police vehicle.

MR BERGER: And the caspir that you referred to, that you saw driving towards Sebokeng, that is the caspir that you saw on your way back to kwaMadala?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: I put it to you that you are changing your evidence, but I will argue that.

The caspir that you saw, or the only caspir that you saw, you say if it had stopped, then you might have been arrested, but it didn't stop, it continued going towards Sebokeng?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: If it had stopped, what would you have done?

MR MKHIZE: We would have run away. There was no other option, except to flee.

MR BERGER: We know that there was in fact a military vehicle stationed near the corner of Frikkie Meyer Boulevard and Nobel Boulevard, that is where that Trek garage was, we know that that - I believe it is either a caspir or a buffel, was stationed there as you were making your way back to kwaMadala. Are you saying that you never saw that vehicle?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not see it. The only vehicle that I saw, is the one that I mentioned before.

MR BERGER: And that is the vehicle which did not stop, it continued driving towards Sebokeng?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: In fact, we know that soldiers got out of that vehicle and stopped the traffic from proceeding, this is the vehicle traffic from proceeding along Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, in your direction. You never saw that?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not see it.

MR BERGER: So there was no reason for you to run, and I take it you did not run?

MR MKHIZE: We did not run because the vehicle did not stop.

MR BERGER: And hundreds of armed men, carrying looted property with blood dripping from spears and blankets, walked from Boipatong back to kwaMadala along the same route that they had taken to come out of kwaMadala, is that right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is so.

MR BERGER: Walked under the bridge again, along that road, and re-entered kwaMadala through the main gate?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Nobody went running and hiding in the marsh or the veld outside kwaMadala, you all entered through the main gate?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, we all went through the main gate.

MR BERGER: How is it that you only became aware that property was looted from Boipatong, the following morning?

Remember you said you only became aware the following morning?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. I just heard rumours that some things had been looted from Boipatong.

MR BERGER: But you were the Commander of these men, surely you remained behind until all your men had got into the hostel, so that you could be satisfied that they had safely returned to base, isn't that what you did as a Commander?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I should have, but it did not happen because we all went through the gate at the same time.

MR BERGER: And you went from the gate, you went to the stadium, you went back to the stadium, didn't you?

MR MKHIZE: No, that is not so. We went to our rooms.

MR BERGER: Let me read to you what you said to the police, page 5. When we were finished with the attack, the whole group returned to the hostel. We again went or assembled at the stadium, and Situndwa told us to hide our weapons away.

MR MKHIZE: I do not know anything about this statement.

MR BERGER: Well, it is your statement. Is there any reason why you would have lied about re-assembling at the stadium if you didn't re-assemble at the stadium? There would be no reason to tell such a lie, would there be?

MR MKHIZE: I did mention before that a lot of what was said or a lot of statements that were made to the police, were under duress because we were being assaulted at the time.

There was no person who could have given me an instruction because the only single person who was the Prince, was away.

MR BERGER: We know that large items were looted from Boipatong. We know that there was a grandfather clock, there were TV sets, there were quantities of meat stolen from freezers, there was a lot of heavy stuff looted from Boipatong, big stuff.

Are you saying that you were unaware of anyone carrying such heavy stuff back to the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: I said it a long while ago, that I was not aware of any property being looted when we returned to the hostel.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga says that he himself, took a TV set and money, he put the TV into a caspir and he says that there were other TV's, hi-fi's, blankets in the caspir when he put his in. He says that all of this looted property was transported back to the hostel in the caspirs.

MR MKHIZE: I would like you to disregard what Nosenga is saying, because even the fact that there were police present there, is a mistake, that is not true.

MR BERGER: By the way, whilst we are on the question of mistakes, in your statement on page 77, you talk about white bands, two thirds of the way down, white bands being handed out to wear as head bands before the attack. Would that also be a mistake?

MR MKHIZE: I did not say it was a mistake. I said there were those head bands.

MR BERGER: You specifically said there were no white head bands, didn't you or am I wrong?

MR MKHIZE: I said I did not remember clearly whether it was red or white head bands that were used.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga says that after you returned to the hostel, you all washed using a certain muti which was provided for by Chief Mtwana Zulu. You were all happy and chanting and singing.

MR MKHIZE: That is not true.

MR BERGER: So when you got back to the hostel, there was no celebration that you had finally destroyed the enemy in Boipatong, you all just went back to your own rooms, there was no ...

MR MKHIZE: We just went back to our rooms.

MR BERGER: There was no discussion at all about the attack?

MR MKHIZE: No. There was no discussion because it was late at night.

MR BERGER: What did you do with your weapons?

MR MKHIZE: We stored our weapons.

MR BERGER: The next day, the 18th, is it correct that Themba Khoza came to the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember quite clearly, but I think he did arrive at the hostel, that was the day when he actually pleaded with us to cooperate with the police.

MR BERGER: You were asked this question, question 22 on page 68, did Mr Themba Khoza and Mr Humphrey Ndlovu visit kwaMadala after the attack and your answer, page 74, paragraph 22, is yes.

So you admit that Themba Khoza and Humphrey Ndlovu did come to the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I remember.

MR BERGER: That was the following day, that was when Themba Khoza said you must cooperate with the police?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I think it was on the following day. If not that day, it could have been the 19th, but I think it was on the following day of the attack.

MR BERGER: Then you were asked in paragraph 22.1, page 68, to give particulars of the nature of this visit and your answer was that they, that is Themba Khoza and Humphrey Ndlovu just wanted to find out what had happened. We denied all allegations.

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Do you say that that is correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: You denied the allegations because you knew that the attack was not IFP policy, is that right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Then you were asked did Mr Khoza warn hostel dwellers at a meeting that they should burn all the evidence that linked the attackers to the massacre, including goods stolen from the hostel, and clothes stained with blood, and that should read including goods stolen from Boipatong and clothes stained with blood, and your answer was no.

Mr Themba Khoza did not instruct that the evidence should be burnt. Is that still your answer?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: You know that Mr Victor Mthembu contradicts you. He says Themba Khoza did come, Themba Khoza did instruct that the evidence should be burnt. Why should he say such a thing if it is not true?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know. I did not hear Mr Khoza saying that.

MR BERGER: He is not alone on this, because - I am sorry, I am just trying to find out who it is - no, I am incorrect, what Mr Nosenga says is that the following day, paragraph 25, Themba Khoza came to collect the weapons.

He says we were told that other policemen, not the policemen from Vereeniging, would come and search for weapons. Khoza was very happy and praised the people at a rally that was held at the hostel the same day. Your comment please?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know anything about that.

MR BERGER: You do know of course, that a decision was taken to burn the evidence from Boipatong or do you not?

MR MKHIZE: I already told you that I do not have any knowledge thereof.

MR BERGER: Do you know that a decision was taken to burn the evidence from Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: I don't know what else to tell you now, because you are asking me this question for the fourth or fifth time, and I have already told you I did not know that there was property that was looted from Boipatong.

When I heard of it, I could not find the said property.

MR BERGER: Do you know that that property was burnt?

MR MKHIZE: No. I think I should not respond to your question any more.

MR BERGER: All right Mr Mkhize, I was giving you an opportunity to be clear, because at page 78 of your statement, you say the following - I learnt ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Which statement is that?

MR BERGER: Page 78, it is a statement attached to his amnesty application, middle of the page, I learnt first the following day, I heard first the following day that many people had been killed. Then you say some of the residents had brought to the hostel, goods which had been in the houses of Boipatong. Then you say, it was decided to burn the evidence. That is why I was asking you that question so many times, Mr Mkhize.

Perhaps now you know about the decision to burn the evidence?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not remember any such decision.

MR BERGER: Why is it in your statement then?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know. I do not know how it came about, I do not remember anything of this sort.

MR BERGER: You know very well that it was Themba Khoza who ordered that the evidence was burnt, and you don't want to reveal that now, correct? No comment?

By the way the statement that we are referring to, was made by you on the 23rd of May 1998 and it was confirmed by you this morning, correct?

MR MKHIZE: How did I confirm it?

MR BERGER: You were asked by your Advocate and you confirmed it.

You say you have no knowledge about the rally in Ulundi, approximately one month after the attack on Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember because there many rallies that were held.

MR BERGER: Did anyone ever tell you that at this rally, the leader of the IFP, Chief Mangosuthu Buthelezi, had given a speech in which he thanked Mr Nosenga and others who were there for the good job that they had done in Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: That is not true. The Chief would have never praised or thanked the people for doing something of this sort.

No one amongst IFP members would have gone and informed the Chief about such an act.

MR BERGER: I am reading from paragraph 26 on page 22 of Mr Nosenga's statement. He also says in that same paragraph that they travelled in a kombi, driven by Darkie, that would be Darkie Qunchu.

He says that Darkie's uncle owned the kombi. You have told the Committee that Damara Qunchu owned a kombi, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: In the judgement of the criminal court, at page 295 to 297, the Judge found that you had been in possession of an AK47. That finding is correct not so?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: The Judge also found that a meeting had been held, well he said that although he was of the opinion that the attack on Boipatong must have been planned, well planned in advance, he couldn't say that there was enough evidence to prove that there was this meeting two weeks before the attack.

We now know that there was such a meeting, correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: The Judge also said at page 3744, 296 of the bundle, page 3744 of the record, that you confirmed - I am not sure, I am trying to translate from the Afrikaans.

CHAIRPERSON: Why don't you get somebody to do the translation, whilst you get on with the other questions?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I can understand Afrikaans, I am just trying not to be inaccurate.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, then put the question to him.

MR BERGER: You confirmed in court that as part of the military attire, bands were worn around the head and you also corroborated that Moses Mthembu, accused 73, Moses Mthembu, was a leader to the extent that you couldn't decide on your own that the residents should go out on attack.

You required the approval of Moses Mthembu. Do you remember saying that?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not remember that, but Moses Mthembu was indeed senior.

MR BERGER: So you required the approval of Moses Mthembu before you could take the residents out of the hostel that night, the night of the attack?

MR MKHIZE: It was not easy to inform Mthembu about this.

MR BERGER: Why not?

MR MKHIZE: He was an elder and a senior.

MR BERGER: So you chose to bypass him?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Why did you choose the 17th of June as the date for the attack?

MR MKHIZE: It was a coincidence, there was no major reason why that date was chosen.

MR BERGER: Was it a coincidence that it came immediately after the June 16 commemoration?

MR MKHIZE: That is so, it was just a coincidence.

MR BERGER: Was it also a coincidence that the ANC suspended their negotiations with the government as a result of the massacre in Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat the question.

MR BERGER: I am asking you was it a coincidence that it happened, because you are saying that was not the intended result that the ANC pulled out of the negotiations as a result of this massacre.

MR MKHIZE: It was a coincidence.

MR BERGER: I just have some isolated questions and then I will be done Mr Mkhize. You don't know who rang the alarm that night, but it wasn't the person who usually rang the alarm?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember really who did ring the alarm, but the person who would normally blow the trumpet, was Manqeli.

MR BERGER: You said in your evidence in chief at one point, that you did not give anyone an instruction to sound the alarm, then shortly thereafter you said that you did give someone an instruction to sound the alarm, what is the position?

MR MKHIZE: The person who was responsible for the trumpet was Manqeli. I do not remember whether on this particular day, he was present or not.

MR BERGER: My question was did you or did you not give someone an instruction to sound the alarm?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember.

MR BERGER: When you were firing with an AK47, you were not alone, there were other people firing with an AK47 and there were people firing shotguns and there were people firing pistols.

What did you do with the empty shells that would have been ejected from your guns?

MR MKHIZE: There was nothing that we could do about those shells, we just left them on the ground, because it was dark.

MR BERGER: There was no mechanism employed to collect those shells or to make sure that they were not left behind?

MR MKHIZE: It was at night and dark and there was no way you could have been able to pick them up.

MR BERGER: Have you any explanation for the fact that the police only recovered about eight, I might be incorrect with the number, but it was approximately eight, empty shells and all the other shells that must have been ejected from the AK47's, shotguns, 9 mm's, none of those shells were found?

MR MKHIZE: I would not dispute that, but I do not know how that happened.

MR BERGER: And the shells that were recovered, were destroyed by the police. Do you know about that?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that the police only came to the hostel the following day, did not close off or surround the hostel that night?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember well, but I know that the police did arrive.

MR BERGER: I think it was 16 hours after the attack that the police sealed off the hostel, would that be correct?

MR MKHIZE: I would not dispute it. What I remember is that the police came and they cordoned off the hostel and no one could get in or out of the hostel.

MR BERGER: Yes, but that was only the following day?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is so.

MR BERGER: After Mr Themba Khoza had arrived?

MR MKHIZE: Even though I do not remember well, but I think it might have been after.

MR BERGER: And the weapons which were taken by the police, were just put into a big pile in the hostel and taken away. There was no attempt made to determine to whom each weapon belonged, am I correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I think they confiscated spears, not guns.

MR BERGER: Did I understand you correctly, Mr Mkhize, when you said that the reason you feel sorry is because you are sorry that you didn't kill the members of the SDU's, and that you killed innocent people instead?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: What was Mr Themba Mabote armed with?

MR MKHIZE: Although I did not see him, I heard that he had a small firearm.

MR BERGER: Did you not tell Mr Da Silva that you knew what gun Mr Mabote fired with?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not.

MR BERGER: Thank you Mr Mkhize, I have no more questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, I have no questions for the witness.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cambanis?

MS CAMBANIS: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR STRYDOM: No re-examination Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR STRYDOM: I have already indicated no re-examination.

MS TANZER: No re-examination Your Worship.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Any further questions you would like to put Ma'am?

MS PRETORIUS: No further questions, thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Da Silva?

MR DA SILVA: I don't have any further questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Mr Mkhize, you indicated in your early part of your cross-examination when you were being questioned by Ms Tanzer, that you had received threats from some of the residents. Do you remember saying that?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I do.

MR LAX: Who gave you those threats, which residents?

MR MKHIZE: I already mentioned that those threats were from the residents of the hostel.

MR LAX: I am asking you which residents threatened you?

CHAIRPERSON: When you say you feared that you could be attacked by the residents of kwaMadala, what do you mean?

MR MKHIZE: I mean that when they placed these complaints that they were being attacked and killed by people from Boipatong, they actually uttered that if I could not protect them, or if I could not take a decision about what to do, they would actually take the matter into their own hands.

Even though they did not give a direct threat, but that is what I thought.

CHAIRPERSON: Did any of the residents of the hostel directly threaten you?

MR MKHIZE: No. But the residents in general were complaining that they were being killed and I was not taking any action.

MR LAX: You said that you were elected to this position as head of the AmaButho, why didn't you just resign if you didn't want to go on with this attack?

MR MKHIZE: It did occur to me, but I thought that would make no difference because the situation was such that it had already gone too far.

MR LAX: But you see, you have already told us that it wasn't IFP policy to do this sort of thing, correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: You also told us that Mtwana didn't want you to do this sort of thing, he wanted you to wait.

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR LAX: You told us you didn't want this attack to happen yourself?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR LAX: So why did you have anything to do with it, why didn't you just resign and leave it? You could have said let them do it if they want to do it, I don't want to be any part of this.

MR MKHIZE: It was because of the fear and confusion I felt at that time, because people were indeed dying.

MR LAX: So you were on the one hand, slightly in favour of this attack as well, is this what you are saying? You said there was confusion.

Was the confusion in your own mind?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is what I mean.

MR LAX: Who gave the order to return back to the hostel once you had got to Slovo Park and you had assembled there?

MR MKHIZE: I gave that order and Mr Qunchu as well.

MR LAX: So you met Qunchu at Slovo Park?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR LAX: So his group and your group had obviously joined up by that time?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, we had joined up at the time.

MR LAX: And then you jointly left the area back to kwaMadala?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: And did you follow a different path on your way out of the township or did you follow the same path?

MR MKHIZE: We took a different route. We actually took a route that was actually towards the township.

MR LAX: Please explain what you mean by that, towards the township?

MR MKHIZE: We were actually going up towards the hostel. When we went to the township, we took an easterly route, but when we returned, we actually took a route in the opposite direction.

MR LAX: The question was did you take a different route on your way back through the township, not a different direction?

MR MKHIZE: It was a different route.

MR LAX: Are you able to describe that route to us at all? Do you remember any of the roads that you went through? Did you come out at a different place, can you describe that place, that is what we are trying to understand?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not remember. It was a road that actually went up.

MR LAX: When you came out of Boipatong, did you come out near the factories, near the firms?

MR MKHIZE: On the inside of the township, but it was near the firms.

MR LAX: When you went in, you went in much more on the other side, closer towards what your lawyer referred to as the highway?

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat that.

MR LAX: When you went in, you went in on the other side, much more of a westerly side, westerly part of the township?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: I have no questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mkhize, in your capacity as the Commander or leader of AmaButho, did you have power or authority to take such a decision to attack the residents, or were you supposed to get approval from any person above you?

MR MKHIZE: No. I did have the authority.

MR SIBANYONI: After you converged at Slovo Park and you started moving back towards the hostel, were there any attacks on the residents of Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: I did not hear, please repeat the question.

MR SIBANYONI: You said you broke up into two groups and you met at Slovo Park, and then thereafter you started going back to the hostel. My question is, were there any attacks on the residents inside Boipatong, not in Slovo Park, inside Boipatong when you were moving back?

MR MKHIZE: No, there were no further attacks on Boipatong.

MR SIBANYONI: Was Prince Vanana Zulu aware of the pressure which was mounting for the people to attack, was he aware that you were under pressure to make such a decision?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I had informed him before, but he was not present on this particular day.

He requested me to inform the people to hold on so that he could communicate with leaders from Boipatong. On the day of the attack, the Prince was not present.

MR SIBANYONI: You said a decision to attack, was taken some time before the actual attack. Was Mr Zulu aware that the attack was now going to take place?

MR MKHIZE: No, he was not aware. He was in fact not in favour of carrying out such an attack.

MR SIBANYONI: So when he left to Natal, was the decision already taken or it was not yet taken?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, it had been taken already. But it had not been decided exactly when the date would be.

He was not aware that such a decision had been taken, because he did not approve of it.

MR SIBANYONI: We are aware that this attack took place at night, but is it possible for you to give a rough estimation of the number of the people who participated in this attack, a rough estimation?

MR MKHIZE: It would not be easy to estimate the number, but there were many people who were there, because everyone who was in the hostel, actually went out on the attack.

MR SIBANYONI: Lastly, you said you saw the caspir travelling on the road. Was it at such a distance that the people in the caspir would easily identify you, easily see the group, your group of people coming from Boipatong? Was it at such a distance?

MR MKHIZE: It was a bit far so it was possible that they could have seen us, or maybe they could have not, I do not know.

MR SIBANYONI: When you left, I am sorry Mr Chairperson, two more questions, when you left the hostel, where were the security which were supposed to be at the gate?

MR MKHIZE: They were not at the gate, I did not see them.

MR SIBANYONI: And when you returned?

MR MKHIZE: No, they were not present.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you Chair, just one question that arose out of my colleague's question. Did Vanana Zulu ever speak to you after the attack, on his return from kwaZulu and say to you what is going on, why did you do this thing, why did you just go ahead, you knew I didn't want this to happen? Did he ever question you about it?

MR MKHIZE: No, it was not possible for that to happen because the police arrested us and we did not get an opportunity to discuss that.

MR LAX: Even up until today?

MR MKHIZE: Well, we did explain as we were seeking, or as we were preparing to seek amnesty.

MR LAX: And what was his attitude?

MR MKHIZE: He complained.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: In relation to the day when you went to attack Boipatong, when did the people in the hostel begin to complain about no action being taken against Boipatong residents?

MR MKHIZE: They had been complaining for quite a while, although I will not be able to specify exactly when. As from the first time, the first day when people were killed, the people started complaining.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the nature of their complaints?

MR MKHIZE: They were complaining that they were being killed, they were being eliminated and no action was being taken by the leadership.

CHAIRPERSON: To whom were these complaints addressed?

MR MKHIZE: Although I do not know whether they did address these complaints to Prince Vanana, but in most instances, they were addressed to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the committee of which you are a member, ever discuss this complaints?

MR MKHIZE: No. They were never discussed.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

MR MKHIZE: I am not sure. It could be because it had never been brought to their attention.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you not as a member of that committee, raise the matter with the committee?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not discuss it with them. The only person I reported it to, was the Prince.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you perhaps attempt to seek guidance from senior members of the IFP, apart from Mr Vanana Zulu?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not. I did not inform anyone who was senior to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. As I understand your evidence, you said that as the leader of AmaButho, you had the authority to order the attack?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why people would come to you with this complaint and not to the other members of the IFP?

MR MKHIZE: Yes. They came to me because they knew that I was the leader of AmaButho. I was the one who would actually take their complaints forward to the Prince.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you get the feeling that they came to you because you had the authority to order the attack?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand the position, there were regular patrols around the hostel, kwaMadala?

MR MKHIZE: The patrols were normally at the firm, not necessarily in the hostel where we resided.

CHAIRPERSON: In the course of the patrols, did the police or the army, come to the hostel or at least to the gates of the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: Sometimes they would come to the hostel and we will see them if they came during the day.

CHAIRPERSON: The entrances to the hostel, how many were there?

MR MKHIZE: There is one main gate.

CHAIRPERSON: And is this gate manned by security officers?

MR MKHIZE: Initially there was no security, but as time went on, there was somebody who was posted at the gate.

CHAIRPERSON: When was this individual posted at the gate?

MR MKHIZE: Although I cannot remember correctly, but I think it was after, subsequent to the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know any reason why there would have been a security at the gate only after the attack?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. As you prepared, you have been asked this question and I am going to repeat it, as you prepared to leave the hostel, armed in the manner in which you described, did it not occur to you that you might come across one of the police patrols before you reach Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: It did not occur, but it did not occur at that particular point when we actually proceeded to Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Why is that so?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know why, but I did not think of it.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it because you were the Commander, and you would ordinarily be concerned about the safety of your men, were you not?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: What steps if any, did you then take to ensure that they would not be exposed to any arrest by the police?

MR MKHIZE: I did not take any steps. What was on my mind, was that we were just going to go out and launch this attack. No one questioned if we were ever going to meet police or if we were going to be arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Is it a fact that prior to the 17th of June, which is the day of the attack, or at least immediately before that day, it was generally known in the hostel, that there will be an attack on Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: I do not think that is true, because no one had been informed about the decision. We feared that if that information were to leak, it could even get to the police.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not saying that it was known that the attack was going to take place on the 17th, but what was known was that there will be an attack at some point, at some future date?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Was this announced at a public meeting?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you make that announcement?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: You may have been asked this question, but let me ask you again, do you know Andries Matanzima Nosenga?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know him.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you ever heard the name Nosenga at any stage?

MR MKHIZE: I have heard of the name Matanzima, although I have never seen the person.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you know about Matanzima? What did you know about the name Matanzima?

MR MKHIZE: I heard that there was a certain Matanzima who had actually arrived at the hostel when we were arrested, and he said that he had been actually sent to go and kill people.

CHAIRPERSON: It is Nosenga, but this was only after you had been arrested?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, after we had been arrested. I do not know him at all.

I don't think he would be able to identify me, himself.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I just want to give you the opportunity to comment if you will, on the allegation that he made. You see, he has made a sworn statement which is to the effect that there were police who escorted AmaButho into Boipatong. Your evidence is that there were no police?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you perhaps think of any reason why Nosenga will make this allegations?

MR MKHIZE: What he is saying, is not true. It is not the truth at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you think of any reason why he would make this allegation?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know. The allegation that there were police accompanying people or who were transporting people, is not true.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we have been furnished with a memorandum which was submitted on behalf of the victims, one of the allegations which they make, is that white men were seen amongst the attackers in Boipatong. Did you understand that?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I understand you.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say to these allegations?

MR MKHIZE: What I can say is that it is not true. As I mentioned before, I did not understand why when seeking amnesty, I would hide or fear to divulge information on who was present.

I would actually give all that information, if the police were present, I would say they were part of that attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Is there a possibility that because of the large numbers of persons who were in Boipatong to attack, and the size of Boipatong, there were police but you didn't see them?

MR MKHIZE: I would dispute that, because there was no car, no vehicle that was seen in that vicinity at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Very well, thank you Mr Mkhize.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, might I ask two questions flowing from questions from the Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: Thank you. Mr Mkhize, how many days before the attack on Boipatong, did you make the public announcement that there was to be an attack on Boipatong, without giving the date? How many days before the actual attack, did you make that public announcement that Boipatong was going to be attacked?

MR MKHIZE: I mentioned before that I have forgotten what time lapsed before the actual date.

MR BERGER: Approximately how many days? Three days, a week?

MR MKHIZE: It could have been a week or more.

MR BERGER: You have told the Committee that your immediate superior, Vanana Zulu, specifically told you not to launch an attack on Boipatong, and yet you say that you had authority to launch the attack on Boipatong. From where or from whom did you get that authority?

MR MKHIZE: I did say that I had the authority because the Prince was not present.

MR BERGER: No, the Prince had told you that when he is not there, you are not to launch an attack on Boipatong, correct?

MR MKHIZE: The Prince said we should wait. He did not specifically tell us not to launch an attack in his absence.

MR BERGER: He said you should wait before you launched an attack, wait for him to come back. My question remains from whom or from where do you say you had authority to launch an attack?

MR MKHIZE: What I am saying to you is that the Prince was absent, he had gone home and therefore I had that authority to launch an attack. He did not issue an instruction that we should not attack in his absence.

MR BERGER: According to you, Mtwana Zulu said that you should allow him to speak to the residents of Boipatong, that there should not be an attack, that was your evidence?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: So who gave you the authority to launch that attack?

MR MKHIZE: No one. I took it upon myself, because people were dying continuously.

MR BERGER: Thank you, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mkhize, you may step down. Before you return to your seat, because would be rising shortly, there are a couple of matters that we have to deal with.

Firstly Mlupeki Tshabangu and Sipho Buthelezi, you were not present at these hearings when we resumed yesterday, is that right? Would you please come forward and speak next to the microphone.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR BUTHELEZI: I am Sipho Buthelezi.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not present yesterday when the matter resumed?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the reason for that?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was actually waiting for the people who normally transport us to the venue, to pick me up.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the only reason? Do you understand English or do you want me to speak in Zulu?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was prevented from arriving here yesterday by the fact that I was waiting for the people who normally pick us up and they did not arrive.

One other reason is that I did not have money so that I could travel on my own.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was supposed to bring you here?

MR BUTHELEZI: I am referring to the two white persons.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you in custody?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tshabangu, you were not here when we resumed yesterday?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the reason?

MR TSHABANGU: There was a communication problem. On the last day of the previous sitting, I had requested at the previous hearing that I should be contacted by the people who are my co-applicants and I could not contact them telephonically.

On Monday morning I assumed that the people who normally pick us up, would come for me, but they did not arrive.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, you are the applicant, both of you are the applicants in this matter. You have the obligation to ensure that you are here so that your application can be heard.

I know that we have heard your evidence, but we haven't heard the evidence of Buthelezi. Do you understand that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I think in future, this will not be tolerated. You must make sure that you are here in time. If there are any problems, notify your Attorneys that you have a problem, so that there are no delays. I am not suggesting that we did not proceed yesterday because you were not there, but it may well occur in future that your absence may lead to a delay.

It is in your interest to be here always, because the evidence that may be given here, may effect you one way or the other, and you've got to hear that evidence and give instructions to your Attorney so that that evidence if necessary, can be disputed. Do you understand that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I cannot pronounce your name, how do you pronounce your name?

MR SHELLBERG: Shellberg.

CHAIRPERSON: Shellberg?

MR SHELLBERG: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shellberg, in regard to Mr Nosenga, you have now had the opportunity to interview him in the presence of his legal representative.

MR SHELLBERG: Yes Mr Chairperson. I have interviewed Mr Nosenga, together with Ms Tanzer

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, you may return to your seat gentlemen.

MR SHELLBERG: Based on the information that I obtained, I have recommended that the Witness Protection Unit that has already been in place since this morning, should be stepped up.

I have also been in contact with the prison authorities to change, or to step up the security concerning Mr Nosenga in the prison, and I also had discussions with the police present at this location, also to make sure that the protection is as good as it can be.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you discussed these matters with Mr Nosenga and his legal representative?

MR SHELLBERG: Yes, we have discussed this together and Mr Nosenga is satisfied with these arrangements.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Do you confirm that Ma'am?

MS TANZER: I do Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Thank you Mr Shellberg. We will leave the matter in your hands then, to make sure that he is afforded the necessary protection.

MR SHELLBERG: Yes, thank you.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, if I ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: On the issue of protection?

MR STRYDOM: No, I thought that issue was dealt with, I've got another issue.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no. I think for the record, Mr Shellberg, would you convey to the responsible Head of the Prison, where these threats are supposed to emanate from, that these threats have been made, we are told, that there have been threats made against Mr Nosenga and if he could please to investigate these allegations and then report back to you and then you can give us a report in due course because I consider it to be a fairly serious matter, if a witness is threatened in any manner whatsoever.

MR SHELLBERG: Yes, I will do so Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I would like to get a directive from the Committee with regard to applicants that have already testified.

Are they under obligation to remain present, I would assume that it would be in their interest to remain present to give instructions if there are certain things said against them, but I would just like to get a directive as to the legal situation, if they are - if they have to be here?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it would seem to be prima facie that to the extent that a decision has been made, that their applications would be heard together, and they have to remain here until the applications have been finalised.

Having said that, however, it may well be necessary that the applicant may wish to be excused for whatever reason. It is a matter which we would have to consider as and when it arises. But I would have thought that it would be in the interest of each and every applicant to be present throughout the proceedings, so that they can hear for themselves what evidence is being given and if there is any evidence that is given, which is prejudicial to them, they should be in a position to give instructions to their legal representative, a matter which they can't do if they are not here.

MR STRYDOM: Yes Chairperson, I am faced with such a situation because one of the applicants, Mr Tshabangu, must attend certain lectures, he is busy studying some course and he told me that he must attend certain lectures tomorrow.

That is the reason why I asked for this directive.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, the Committee has no objections to him being excused, as long as there is someone here who is going to look after his interest. If his legal representative is here, we don't have a problem with that, so he may be excused.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Another matter which I want to raise, and this is directed to you Mr Shellberg and Mr Mapoma. The affidavit of Mr Nosenga which was handed in this morning, directly implicates the police in the attack.

It seems to me that the police must therefore be given the necessary notice under the Act. Would you make sure that that notice is sent out to the police as soon as it is practicable to do so?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, I will do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any matter that Counsel wishes to raise?

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairperson, there is one aspect that perturbs me. You referred in the cross-examination of the previous witness, previous applicant, to this document. It is a document that exceeds 80 pages.

I don't know from whom it was meant to have been handed in, I don't know if it is before the Committee, I don't know what its evidential value is, and I don't know what the purpose of it is, with respect Mr Chairperson.

A further aspect Mr Chairperson, that perturbs me is why so late in the day, on the second day of the hearing, at three o'clock, this document which is an extensive document, is made available to Counsel? Counsel - it is required of us to study the document, possibly consult with witnesses in regard to the allegations that are made here.

I personally feel, this is my personal view, that it is unfair towards Counsel to be given a document of this nature, at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Throughout these proceedings Mr Da Silva, we have been receiving documents, not at a time when those documents should have been received, but fairly late, and that is the circumstance you have to live with.

You must just do your best as all of us have been doing in the past, go through this document tonight, consult if necessary and make sure that you are ready tomorrow morning.

As I understand this document, it is prepared by - it has been put together by the Investigative Unit of the TRC, is that right? Yes, it has been compiled by the Investigating Unit of the TRC, it is intended to assist whoever who needs assistance from these documents, to go through.

MR DA SILVA: I am indebted to your explanation Mr Chairman. The only, if I can put it this way, the objection that I have is that a document is made available and with due respect, and it is not that I am pointing fingers at anybody, that is not my intention, but as far as I am concerned, I was the only person sitting here during the tea adjournment, and there is no explanation whatsoever given, from where the document comes from, with respect Mr Chairperson.

I will leave the matter there, I understand that we are dealing with this matter in exceptional circumstances. I just thought that I would raise this concern because it is a real concern that I have in the matter, and it is not an intention, and I say this with the utmost respect, of pointing fingers at anybody.

It is just that I felt that it is unfair that such a document, of this nature, is made available at such a late stage. But I accept what you have said Mr Chairman, and I don't think it is necessary to take it any further than that.

I am indebted to you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, just to satisfy Mr Da Silva, do you know why this document was given to him this late?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Mr Chairman, this document was prepared by the Investigative Unit together with my predecessor, Adv Prior and he made a suggestion that this document be made available to all the legal representatives and the Committee members, for whatever assistance that they may need through it.

MR DA SILVA: I am indebted to the explanation Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you are perfectly entitled to challenge the contents of this document, and on a perusal, it would appear that it includes documents such as the report of the inquiry into the police's response to the events in Boipatong, this is the Goldstone Commission.

I think one should accept that a decision has been made to make this document available, and it is just before us. We will have to do our best to go through the document and if necessary, Counsel will be given time to consult with his or her client if necessary.

Again to the extent that the issues that Counsel intends to raise, are relevant to the issues before us, should we give it a number at this stage? Perhaps we should give it a number. It would be marked as Exhibit S.

Very well. Mr Berger, did you have anything to say?

MR BERGER: No Chairperson, it is not necessary.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I have something to say whilst we are talking about documents, I know it is late in the day, but I just want to make sure that we don't end up with the same situation that documents aren't received, or received at a late stage.

At a previous hearing, there were certain documents outstanding for Mr Mxoliseni Mkhize and Paulos Mbatha. Those documents I handed over to the Committee, but I see it has not been added to the bundle. That is just the affidavit of these people and further particulars.

I just want to make sure that all the relevant parties have copies of this document, otherwise I will have to make further copies and have it available.

CHAIRPERSON: None of the Committee members as far as I am aware, are in possession of those documents.

MR BERGER: We were given documents for Mbatha and Mkhize, if that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: I will just make then sure that further copies are made and made available as soon as possible.

CHAIRPERSON: We will reconvene tomorrow morning at half past eight.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS