CHAIRPERSON: Who is your next witness?
MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the next applicant is Petrus Mdiniso.
CHAIRPERSON: We will take the tea adjournment and return at a quarter to twelve.
MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
INTERPRETER: Chairperson, may I please make an announcement?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: What language are you going to speak? Please give us your full names.
INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.
THULANI PETROL MDINISO: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: You may be seated. Yes, Mr Strydom?
EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Mdiniso, I want to show your signature on page 195, that's the signature that appears on the Form 1: Amnesty Application. Is that your signature?
MR MDINISO: Yes, that is correct.
MR STRYDOM: This document has been canvassed with you and translated to you, do you confirm the contents?
MR MDINISO: Yes, that is correct.
MR STRYDOM: Now what you state in this document is that you were not part of the attack on Boipatong and you only heard about the attack after the attack, is that correct?
MR MDINISO: Yes, that is correct.
MR STRYDOM: And you maintain that you were incorrectly found guilty at the trial of this matter?
MR MDINISO: Yes, that is correct.
MR STRYDOM: Now there's an annexure to your application stating the political objective of the attack, do you say that this is not applicable to your application?
MR MDINISO: Yes, that is correct.
MR STRYDOM: You furthermore gave certain answers after a request for further particulars was shown to you, do you confirm the correctness of the answers as they appear on page 198 and 199?
MR MDINISO: Will you please repeat the question?
MR STRYDOM: During consultations certain questions were put to you and you gave certain answers and these answers were translated to you, do you confirm the answers as they were translated to you?
MR MDINISO: Yes, that is correct.
MR STRYDOM: You also signed an affidavit, and your signature appears on page 201, is that your signature?
MR MDINISO: Yes, that is correct.
MR STRYDOM: Do you admit the contents of this affidavit as it has been translated to you?
MR MDINISO: Yes, I agree, though someone was translating to me. Perhaps there are mistakes, there could be some mistakes because someone was translating for me.
MR STRYDOM: Yes, it's short affidavit so I'll just translate it to you now and you can just confirm the contents
"During June 1992 I was staying at Kwamadala hostel."
MR MDINISO: Yes.
MR STRYDOM
"I moved in during 1990."
MR MDINISO: Correct.
MR STRYDOM
"This was after all Zulus were chased out of other hostels and townships."
INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat the last statement?
MR STRYDOM
"That was after all Zulus were chased out of other hostels and townships."
MR MDINISO: Yes, that is correct.
MR STRYDOM
"Supporters of the IFP were killed by ANC supporters."
MR MDINISO: That is correct.
MR STRYDOM
"It was not out of my own free will that I moved to Kwamadala."
MR MDINISO: That is correct.
MR STRYDOM
"I was forced to do so for my own safety."
MR MDINISO: That is correct.
MR STRYDOM
"On the 17th of June 1992, it was my day off."
MR MDINISO: That is correct.
MR STRYDOM
"I stayed here at the hostel."
MR MDINISO: Correct.
MR STRYDOM
"I did not know anything about an attack which took place, which would have taken place."
MR MDINISO: Correct.
MR STRYDOM
"I went to go and sleep at approximately 8 o'clock pm."
MR MDINISO: That is correct.
MR STRYDOM
"I stay in a room very far from the stadium. I didn't hear the alarm or anything of that nature. The next day at work, I heard on the radio about the attack."
MR MDINISO: Correct.
MR STRYDOM
"I know many people in Boipatong and also stayed there some time ago."
MR MDINISO: I did not get the last statement.
MR STRYDOM
"I know many people in Boipatong and stayed there some time ago."
MR MDINISO: Correct.
MR STRYDOM
"I feel very sorry for those who died and who were injured. I was falsely implicated at the trial and was also wrongly convicted. I nevertheless ask for amnesty but that does not mean that I did anything wrong."
Is that the affidavit?
MR MDINISO: Correct.
MR STRYDOM: The process of amnesty has been explained to you, is that correct?
MR MDINISO: The process of amnesty, I did not have any idea as far as this is concerned, but I heard when Buthelezi and Mthembu were being questioned. I did not have any idea. I only got the idea when I was listening as they were questioned. I came here to clear my name in front of the people of Boipatong and to mention that I was falsely implicated. I was convicted, falsely convicted by the Judge. I knew very well that my hands are clean. I know nothing about the Boipatong incident.
ADV SIGODI: Could you speak slowly so that we can get the interpretation clearly because if you speak fast we can't get it.
MR STRYDOM: You were asked if you want to withdraw your application, you said no, you want to carry on with the application, why?
MR MDINISO: My reasons are as follows: I am prepared to tell the people of Boipatong that I am innocent, I know nothing about the attack. That is the reason why I came here, because I know this place as a place to tell the truth. I wanted to come here and tell the people that I know nothing about the Boipatong incident. I as sick on that particular day, I had flu. I was not feeling well, and that is why I had to go to bed as early as 8 o'clock.
MR STRYDOM: I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM
MS PRETORIUS: No questions, thank you, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS
MR DA SILVA: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA
MS TANZER: Are you aware of the existence of Andries Nosenga?
MR MDINISO: I don't even know him, I only hear about him here for the first time.
MS TANZER: So you don't know whether he was staying at the hostel or not?
MR MDINISO: I won't even mention anything about him. I don't even know what to say about him because I don't even know him.
MS TANZER: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?
MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi?
MR MALINDI: Chairperson, just one question.
CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon, do you want Mr Berger to start?
MR MALINDI: I would be ...(indistinct) to say it that way, Mr Chairperson.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Mdiniso, if I understand you correctly, you did not attend any meeting prior to the 17th of June 1992 at which there was talk about an attack, am I right?
MR MDINISO: Yes, that is correct. The only meeting that I attended is only one where there was a complaint when a car was burnt down. A gentleman by the name of ...(indistinct) Sibiya and the other one whose surname was Zulu, they were together. Their car was burnt down at Sondela. I heard the complaints from the people and previously people had died and people were complaining because they were dying. That was the only meeting that I attended.
MR BERGER: The only question is, at no meeting at which you attended was there ever any talk about an attack on anyone, am I right?
MR MDINISO: Yes, that is correct.
MR BERGER: I just want to ask you one question or I want to concentrate just on one sentence in your affidavit at page 201 where you say
"I know many people in Boipatong."
At the time of the attack, did you know many people in Boipatong?
MR MDINISO: Do you mean during the attack? Will you please repeat your question?
MR BERGER: I'm not suggesting that you were part of the attack, I'm saying, at that time, June 1992, did you know many people in Boipatong?
MR MDINISO: No, I would request you not to refer to me about the time of the attack. What I said is that I knew people from Boipatong prior to the attack. Just before the politics I grew up in that place and I knew quite a number of people. Please don't refer me to the attack because I was not present but I know the people from Boipatong.
MR BERGER: Mr Mdiniso, please listen to my question. You say in your affidavit, which was signed by you in 1998, June 1998, you say
"I know many people in Boipatong."
Is that correct?
MR MDINISO: The people who are residing at Boipatong, I know the residents, the real residents of Boipatong, not people from KwaZulu Natal. I was also a tenant at Boipatong. I did not own a house there, I was just a tenant.
MR BERGER: And these people that you know who are living in Boipatong, they were also living in Boipatong at the time of the attack, am I right?
MR MDINISO: You mean during the attack? There was a meeting at Zone 7 on the 22nd. I'm not sure whether the month was July because that place is far away. On our way from that meeting, when we went to the hostel at Sebokeng, the hostel was closed. They told us the Zulus were not welcome.
The following day on the 23rd, there were pamphlets that were distributed all over the place, in the houses in the townships. The pamphlets were saying that the Zulus were not welcome.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mdiniso, please, you're going on a long story. You're being asked a very simple question. it's really a simple matter. Mr Berger is asking you that as at June 1992, is it correct that you knew many people who were involved or were living in Boipatong, simple as that, yes or no?
MR MDINISO: Yes, I knew people there.
MR BERGER: Thank you, Mr Mdiniso, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER
CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Just one question.
During 1992, you were working at Iscor, is that correct?
MR MDINISO: Yes, that is correct.
MR STRYDOM: And you worked shifts, is that right?
MR MDINISO: Yes, I was working three shifts.
MR STRYDOM: And some people that worked at Iscor lived in Boipatong, is that correct?
MR MDINISO: The people who were working for Iscor, among them there were people who were residing at Boipatong.
MR STRYDOM: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM
MS PRETORIUS: No questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MS PRETORIUS
MR DA SILVA: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA
MS TANZER: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
ADV SIGODI: No questions, Chair.
MR SIBANYONI: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mdiniso, you do understand that this Committee only has the power to grant amnesty to persons who have committed an offence with a political motive.
MR MDINISO: Yes, that is what I got to understand when I arrived here.
CHAIRPERSON: As we understand your evidence you never committed any act of violence in relation to the Boipatong massacre.
MR MDINISO: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: The only reason you came to this Committee was to tell the people of Boipatong that you are innocent?
MR MDINISO: Yes, that is the reason, because in Court I was found guilty. I wanted to apply for amnesty and to clear my name. Among my brothers and the people of Boipatong they should know that I'm innocent.
CHAIRPERSON: What was done by the High Court cannot be undone by this Committee. If you persist in your innocence, only the Appeal Court has the power to undo what was done by the High Court. Do you understand that?
MR MDINISO: Yes, I do understand that.
CHAIRPERSON: We can only consider an application if you consider yourself to be guilty of the massacre or any act in relation to the massacre at Boipatong. Do you understand that?
MR MDINISO: Yes, I do.
CHAIRPERSON: What you are telling us is that you didn't do anything wrong?
MR MDINISO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything arising?
MR STRYDOM: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI: Chairperson, may I ask one question?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MALINDI: Mr Mdiniso, did you share your room with anyone at Kwamadala?
MR MDINISO: Yes, there were some people.
MR MALINDI: Who were they?
MR MDINISO: It was Benseni Ntuli.
MR MALINDI: Anyone else?
MR MDINISO: The other one's surname was Shandu. I cannot remember the first name, perhaps it was Aaron Shandu or something else, but I cannot remember.
MR MALINDI: You say perhaps it was who Shandu?
MR MDINISO: Yes.
MR MALINDI: Was there anyone else in your room?
MR MDINISO: No, there was no-one else.
MR MALINDI: Mr Ntuli, was he the one who helped with security at the gate?
MR MDINISO: Yes.
MR MALINDI: Now on the evening of the 17th of June 1992, did you become aware that these two other gentlemen left your room during that night or not?
MR MDINISO: Pardon?
MR MALINDI: Mr Ntuli and Shandu, were they in your room when you went to sleep?
MR MDINISO: On that particular day they left me in the house. Shandu was going to be on duty and Ntuli was going to be duty. They were about to start at 6 o'clock. They left me in the house.
MR MALINDI: The following morning, what time did you go to work yourself?
MR MDINISO: I was to report at work at 2 o'clock. I moved from Kwamadala hostel at about half past 12 on my way to work.
MR MALINDI: And that was two in the afternoon?
MR MDINISO: Yes.
MR MALINDI: And when you woke up in the morning, did you hear anyone walking around ordering residents to take out things that were stolen from Boipatong, to be burnt?
MR MDINISO: No, I did not hear that, I heard that for the first time here.
MR MALINDI: And before you left for work, did you become aware that there was an attack in Boipatong, from your co-residents or not?
MR MDINISO: No, I only got that information at work. I heard that people died at Boipatong, they were attacked. That is the information that I got when I was at work.
MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger?
MR BERGER: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cambanis?
MS CAMBANIS: Nothing thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mdiniso, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED
