DICK MKHONTO: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger.
MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.
EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: Sergeant-Major, if you would have a look at the bundle in front of you and particularly at page 37 and 38, do you confirm that that is your application for amnesty?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes, I confirm, Mr Chairman.
MR BERGER: When you completed this application form, were you assisted by anyone or did you complete it on your own?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: I completed it on my own Mr Chairman.
MR BERGER: You've heard the evidence of Gen Nyanda and Gen Shoke.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes, Mr Chairman.
MR BERGER: Do you confirm that evidence in so far as it relates to you, or do you have anything you wish to add to that evidence? We'll come to your specific involvement later.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes, I confirm Mr Chairman.
MR BERGER: Now as for as the landmine campaign is concerned, Kletshwayo, how did it come that you were involved in that campaign?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: I was involved through the Chief of Operation, then the Chief of Operation, he was the one who was directly linked to me.
MR BERGER: Is that Viva that we've been speaking of?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And you were part of a unit that operated under the command of Kletshwayo, the command structure of Kletshwayo, you were part of the unit that operated in South Africa, is that correct?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes, Mr Chairman.
MR BERGER: How many people in your unit?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: In my unit it was myself and my brother.
MR BERGER: Your brother's name?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: My brother's name is Ndumiso Mkhonto, he is deceased now he has passed away in 1989.
MR BERGER: Can you recall the operations that you were involved in under the command of Kletshwayo?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes I recall, Mr Chairman.
MR BERGER: Alright. How many operations do you recall?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: I recall four, Mr Chairman.
MR BERGER: Alright. Can we go through them please? The first one?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: The first one is the landmine case, Corporal in a horse and the other one which ...(indistinct) those people who were mentioned behind.
MR BERGER: I beg your pardon? The first one was the corporal who was riding on a horse?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: On a horse.
MR BERGER: Okay. And the second one?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: The second one, the five people killed, but it mentioned four there.
MR BERGER: You're talking about five people killed.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes and the casspir detonated a mine.
MR BERGER: Okay. That's three incidents.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes.
MR BERGER: And the fourth one?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Okay, I think they are all in all there, Mr Chairman.
MR BERGER: You're saying there are three incidents. Alright, let's go back. Now the corporal who was riding a horse.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes, Mr Chairman.
MR BERGER: Where was that incident?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Okay that incident was next to Josefsdal, Mr Chairman.
MR BERGER: The five people, you said somewhere else it was mentioned that it was four people who were killed.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes.
MR BERGER: Okay. The four or five people who were killed, where was that incident?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: That incident was not far from the Diepgesit mine, it's about 10 kilometres from the Diepgesit Mine.
MR BERGER: Okay. And the casspir which detonated a mine, where was that?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Okay, the casspir that detonated a mine, it's somewhere at Makutha, next to Mgobothe here in the Eastern Transvaal.
MR BERGER: Was anyone killed, I want to go to the third incident now, the casspir that detonated a mine, was anyone killed in that incident?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: In the media it was reported that minor injuries, Mr Chairman.
MR BERGER: How many people were injured, according to the media report?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: They didn't specify Mr Chairman.
MR BERGER: Let's then go to the second operation where four or five people were killed.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes.
MR BERGER: Now that sounds like the incident, you say it was near the Diepgesit mine and that sounds like the incident that's been spoken about this morning. Ms Mtanga has been speaking about that incident.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes.
MR BERGER: Alright. I want you to tell the Committee what road this was where you planted the mine and why you chose that position.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Okay, Mr Chairman, after the reconnaissance we found that that place was only used by the military and the police and there were no inhabitants around that area. The only people who were using that road, it was used for logistical supply for the people who were in the border, who are working around the fence of Swaziland and South Africa. It was used only by the military to supply those people who were there in the what you call.
MR BERGER: People who are where?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Who are working in the border, the soldiers, then it was taken into consideration that there were no civilians who are using those roads. We have stayed there for three days reconnoitring that place. After we find that there was no car in the whole three days that has passed through that road, then we decided that only a military vehicle and a helicopter, then the helicopter, they were having another observation post about five kilos from us, then they used to pass there, then the cars using that road, to convey either personnel to the border or logistical support.
MR BERGER: Ms Mtanga said that this road where the landmine was planted was near a residential area. What is your comment on that?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: The residence which is nearest there is about ten to fifteen kilos away from there.
MR BERGER: And in the three days that you kept that road under observation, did you see any civilian traffic on that road?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: There was no civilian traffic, there was no car which was passing that road for the whole three days, only on the main road and when they come to that, it was used only for military.
MR BERGER: So is it your evidence that the road on which you planted the landmine, was a road that led off the main road?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Ja, it led off from the main road.
MR BERGER: Towards the border area?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Ja, towards the border area and also it don't reach the fence because it's mountainous, then it goes nearer the mountains then it gets finished, then they used to go up to that area, up to about 2 kilometres, then after 2 kilometres, then there's no other roads, it ends there, it cul-de-sacs, then you can't go far, then the people they will come from the border to fetch their logistical supply from there.
MR BERGER: Then coming to the first operation, the corporal on the horse, you said that was near Josefsdal.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes.
MR BERGER: What reconnaissance did you do there and why did you decide to plant a mine there?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Then we decided to plant a landmine there because also it was used only by military and the way a family that didn't have a car, next to the border fence, then that family didn't have a car, then we ...(indistinct) which was moving in that road, it was not used by any car to those families, those people who have given that person the horse, they didn't have a car, they have only some horses to go to the nearest town or to the shops and it's far from inhabitants, or it's nearly the same with the kilometres to where a location or a township.
MR BERGER: Nearly the same as what?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Nearly the same as the one of those five people.
MR BERGER: The Diepgesit mine.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes and it's in the same area. The Diepgesit and the Josefsdal, those are same area, it's one and the same area.
MR BERGER: How long did you keep the Josefsdal area, where the Corporal on the horse was killed, how long did you keep that area under observation, under surveillance?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Okay. We have repeated the reconnaissance, we have come, maybe we stay for two to three days then we go back, then we go for the final reconnaissance. When they were exchanging cars from the border, we go again and check that they are still to allocate their place where they will have commands, to command with the main commands and also to those who are in the border post.
MR BERGER: And during the time that you kept that spot under observation, did you see any civilian traffic?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: There was no civilian traffic.
MR BERGER: Sgt-Maj. what is your present position in the SADF?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: My present position in the South African National Defence Force, I'm a Sergeant-Major, I'm a Company Sergeant-Major.
MR BERGER: Based where?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Based at Bethlehem in the Engineer Corps.
MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Berger. Ms Mtanga, any questions?
MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Mr Mkhonto, the road that you placed this landmine on, you said that you had observed it for over three days and you hadn't seen many vehicles moving there.
MR BERGER: Sorry, which road?
MS MTANGA: That is the Josefsdal incident where four people were killed and one injured next to the mine.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes, we have stayed there for three days. There was no civilian car which has moved to that road for three days and we were not far from the road when we observed the road. We were about 500 metres away because it's a bushy area, from 500 metres already a bushy area and mountainous area.
MS MTANGA: It's a little bit difficult for us because we don't know this location, but I just want you to kind of paint a picture. Where was this road coming from, and I understand you say it ended up being a cul-de-sac, but where was it coming from?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Okay, coming from the main road, coming from Barberton to the Diepgesit mine then from there it makes a cul-de-sac, it was opened by the army to turn there so that they can ferry logistics to the people who are in the border in the Josefsdal.
MS MTANGA: And then at which point did you place the landmine?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: At the point, not in the main road but after the turn, then we have moved a kilometre from the turn, then we placed the landmine.
MS MTANGA: When you say after the turn, then it would have been, you would have placed it down towards where the cul-de-sac was, am I right?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Ja, not exactly in the cul-de-sac, we have given just some spaces from the cul-de-sac, of a kilometre from there to the cul-de-sac.
MS MTANGA: Okay, in your recollection of that road and I'm assuming you have read the evidence of Mr Motsa who was the victim in that incident.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes.
MS MTANGA: When he says he was injured, the position where he was, how would he have gotten onto this road that you say was not used at all? In your understanding, where would he be going if he drove onto that road as a civilian?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Okay. There are two roads which go to Diepgesit. Another road is from the Diepgesit up to the Josefsdal where that incident of the horse, then you can't go from the cul-de-sac to that road. If you're coming with a car, sometimes those people who are staying in that other side, they can come to the cul-de-sac, but there was no car, they don't have a car in those families where Motsa stays, they don't have a car and to go in that cul-de-sac, it was only a military vehicle in most of the time.
MS MTANGA: But then we have it as evidence that the vehicle belonged to a civilian, Mr Sithole, the bakkie that they were driving.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes, it can be, but he was not yet a member of those families. Maybe he was ferrying from that person to those areas not know that there's a landmine there.
MS MTANGA: So in your knowledge there were - no one owned a vehicle in that area.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: There was no family with a vehicle in that family who was staying there at Motsa's family, there was no one who's got a vehicle.
MS MTANGA: Okay. I have no further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Has the Panel got any questions?
ADV SANDI: Yes. Sergeant-Major, sorry, you may have said this. Maybe I did not pick it up. Who was involved with you? I hear that you keep on saying: "We did this, we did this".
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Okay. My brother.
ADV SANDI: Was it just the two of you?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: He's a deceased, ja, he's a deceased. Yes.
ADV SANDI: It was only the two of you?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes, the two of us.
ADV SANDI: Were you residents in that area?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: What?
ADV SANDI: Were you residents in that area?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: No, I was not a resident in those areas, I used to come there just for reconnaissance or when I go for reconnaissance, I go in those areas. I was not a resident in those areas. I was outlawed, in exile at that time, I go there only for operation.
ADV SANDI: Now how did you ensure that members of the SADF, the SAP, or any one of the farming communities in that area, how did you ensure that they could not observe your presence? Were you hiding in the bushes? Can you just give us a picture?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Okay, at about six kilometres there, there was a big camp of counter-insurgency police, about five kilometres.
ADV SANDI: Yes.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: The other five kilometres it was the South African Defence Force, then in that area there's no farming activities.
ADV SANDI: Yes, but where exactly were you during the time you were conducting your observations and reconnaissance of this particular area?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Okay. My observation, I was in the bush, sleeping in the bush, then because my brother was still - he was still not illegally outside the country, then he's the one who would go and fetch us food and come back and give me the food in the bush.
ADV SANDI: I suppose you had received military training already at that stage?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes I was already received military training long ago.
ADV SANDI: And your brother?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: My brother? Okay, my brother was trained underground.
ADV SANDI: Thank you Sergeant. Thank you Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Now I'll just try to also get a clearer understanding of this area that we're talking about near the mine. You said that there's a main road?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes, there's a main road which links Diepgesit mines and Barberton town.
CHAIRPERSON: And Barberton town, is it a tarred road?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Not a tarred road, a dust road.
CHAIRPERSON: But it's a constructed road, it's built, it's constructed as a road?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Ja, it's constructed as a road and it links Barberton and the Diepgesit.
CHAIRPERSON: Now there was some traffic on that road that you observed.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Okay, the road that I've observed is the one which goes out from the Barberton to Diepgesit mine, to the border area. It's the one that I've planted the mine.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: The one I've observed.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'll tell you - perhaps you can tell me whether I understand you correctly. There's, let's call it a main road between Barberton and the mine and then turning off that road, there's another road that stops somewhere close to the mountains and that is the road on which you actually planted the mine.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Now during your reconnaissance of the area there, there was traffic that you observed on the Barberton/Diepgesit Min road, let's call it the main road, there was some traffic there, but you were not much interested in that, your reconnaissance was focused on that gravel road that turns off this main road. Is that right?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Right. Now you say that's a cul-de-sac, it stops, that road stops? You drive up to a point and then you've got to actually come back?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes it will have a cul-de-sac that you can't go anywhere.
CHAIRPERSON: It just takes you to the foot of the mountains or somewhere.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: And then it becomes a "voetpaadjie" from there for the soldiers, when they collect their food back to the border, back to guard the border.
CHAIRPERSON: So assume you want to get to the border using this road that you observed, you would have to travel for a distance, then you've got to stop there where the road ends, you've got to get out, you've got to actually walk the rest of the way up to the border.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any idea, what is the distance of that road?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: The distance from which place to which?
CHAIRPERSON: From the main road to where it stops.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: To where it stops.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: It's about two kilometres.
CHAIRPERSON: Now this road that we're talking about that you observed, that you reconnoitred, is it sign-posted or is it just a turn-off from the main road?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: It's a turn-off with no signs. Also in the cul-de-sac, to the cul-de-sac, there's no sign also that here is a cul-de-sac, you will see now that you are in a vale, then you can't go forward, you must turn back.
CHAIRPERSON: So if somebody who doesn't know the area were to turn into that road, that person would just travel for a distance and then would have to come to an end and turn back. There's no indication that this is where the road goes to, or that it stops somewhere, nothing like that?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Nothing like that Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: And you say it's a bushy area?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Ja it's a bushy and mountainous area.
CHAIRPERSON: And there's no activity along that area in terms of farming or anything like that?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Nothing, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Now in the time that you observed that particular road, which vehicles did you see, if any, using that road?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Okay, Mr Chairman, I've seen only military vehicles using that road. Then there was a helicopter in the mountain, then they go and collect area logistic from the helicopter, back down to that road, in those three days I was there.
CHAIRPERSON: So you would observe the military vehicles travelling in the main road and then turning into that ...?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Then turning in that road.
CHAIRPERSON: And this one ...?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And then what would they do? Would they travel up to the end of that road and then wait for their colleagues to come there?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: They would wait for their colleagues to come there.
CHAIRPERSON: And they would turn back.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: They would talk with them with the radio then they come from the border to that area.
CHAIRPERSON: And they would turn back and go to the main road again?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes, they would turn back and go.
CHAIRPERSON: And what does that road look like, that we're talking about? Is it a big open area or is it just two paths, or what does it look like?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: They've just opened it, I think about 300 from the main road, then I think from there it gets two parts to make the two kilometres.
CHAIRPERSON: So there's been a bit of - they've done a bit of work for about 300 metres.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes, then they leave it.
CHAIRPERSON: From there onwards it was just two parts. Those vehicles actually made the path.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes, the path yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Now you said that you planted a mine about a kilometre, was it a kilometre from the main road?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: A kilometre from the main road, a kilometre to the cul-de-sac, in the ...(indistinct)
CHAIRPERSON: That is where it's already this pathway that the military vehicles made there?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: It's not part of the constructed road?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: It's not part of the constructed road.
CHAIRPERSON: Now it appears as if that mine was detonated by a vehicle, I'm not quite sure, it looks like civilian people on it. Have you got any idea what could have happened there?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: I get it from the media, I don't know what happened.
CHAIRPERSON: Assume it was civilians on a civilian vehicle, can you think of any explanation for what could have happened, is it people that lost their way, or is it people that could have been on their way somewhere, or what, or can't you assist us?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: I'm not sure that I can assist because I don't know, maybe they have hired the vehicle to go somewhere or to ferry people to the border so that they can jump the fence, I can't be sure.
CHAIRPERSON: But you certainly didn't expect any civilians to go on there?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes, I didn't expect any civilians.
CHAIRPERSON: Assume in those three days that you reconnoitred that particular road, assume you've seen a lot of civilian vehicles going up and down there, what would you have done?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: I would never lay a landmine if it was like that, I will go and check other - and reconnoitre other places.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you under any pressure to actually plant a landmine in that particular road, or was it up to you to decide?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: It was up to me to decide, no pressure.
CHAIRPERSON: No order to go and plant a mine in that particular roadway, on those particular what-you-call, then I get my order since I say I was working under the Chief of Operations, it is his ...(indistinct)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but there was no specific order for you to go to that specific place and go plant that mine there where you planted it eventually, you could decide on that, would that be correct?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Okay, the first operation has gone correctly, I think the difference is about five kilometres because we have reconnoitred and checked that place before the ...(indistinct) of that corporal.
CHAIRPERSON: That's the Josefsdal one?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: ; The difference is not far from each other. This one was to make that place because we have seen that it's militarised, that we must plant more mines in those areas, because it's a military area.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you - was the Jacobsdal Mine, was it detonated before this one that we're talking about now?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: This one is after that one of Josefsdal. This one is after that one.
CHAIRPERSON: So when you planted this one here, you were already aware that the Josefsdal one has been detonated?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And did you know that it was an army person that detonated that one?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes, I've known, because we were fighting only the Security Forces, can be police or the army personnel.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Sergeant-Major. Mr Berger.
MR BERGER: I have no re-examination, thank you Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
ADV SANDI: Just one question Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes,
ADV SANDI: After the Josefsdal landmine detonated, you managed to remain in the area and proceeded to plant the one at Diepgesit.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: No, I didn't manage to stay in the area. I have gone back to Swaziland and come back again to reconnoitre for the next incident.
ADV SANDI: After how long, approximately?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: I'm not sure now because they are differentiating, they have got their own specific dates in the what-you-call.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Sergeant-Major, can I just ask you, were there any houses near-by that road that we're talking about that you planted the mine on? Were there any houses nearby there?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: There were no inhabitants.
CHAIRPERSON: There were no houses.
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Flying the deep mountain down, there was a family living down in the mountain, next to about four kilometres, there were no houses, the only house was that one, the Motsa, about five kilos to four kilos, but you can see a person on top of the mountain.
CHAIRPERSON: So that's the only house that's in that immediate vicinity there?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Ja, immediate facilities.
CHAIRPERSON: And there's about four kilometres, you say, from that road?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: Five kilometres, then you can see the Motsa family.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Has Ephraim Msivi, has he given a statement? Is it part of the papers before us?
MS MTANGA: No Chairperson, you don't have any statement. he was not at the scene of this incident, he was only a next of kin of the Msivis and he's the person that I said was working for Diepgesit Mine and he was retrenched in 1996 or 1997 and we don't have his forwarding address or whereabouts.
CHAIRPERSON: So he's just the next of kin of the victims?
MS MTANGA: Of the Msivis, yes and it is likely that Mr William Motsa will know where he is, if we could get hold of him.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. The survivor of that incident ...
MS MTANGA: It's William Motsa, that is the one who is still employed at the mine.
CHAIRPERSON: Is there a statement from him in the papers.
MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson, there is.
CHAIRPERSON: Which page is it?
MS MTANGA: There is a medical statement as well by the doctor who treated him.
CHAIRPERSON: And from him himself?
MS MTANGA: And also from him.
CHAIRPERSON: What page is it?
MS MTANGA: He's indicated here as Bango James Motsa.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?
MS MTANGA: Bango James Motsa, page 100.
CHAIRPERSON: 100?
MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh is that it, Bango James Motsa?
MS MTANGA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. With reference to what Mr Motsa seems to have said, if, assume that this was a civilian vehicle that detonated the mine, assume that it was a driver who was going to drop off some people on that road where the mine was, would there be any immediate destination for people who are dropped off there that you can think of, assuming it's civilians, not military people?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: No, I didn't think of civilians because that place is isolated, only for military and I didn't think that in any case a civilian bakkie can get in in that road.
CHAIRPERSON: So you - assume you were to drop people on that road, civilians on that road, would there be any immediate destination that those people would be going to that you can think of? Is that house of Motsa, is that the closest destination from that road?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: No, I couldn't think of people, that they can drop people in that area as civilian people that they can get in in that road. Also the soldiers, they were so rude for people who can go around and turn in the road next to the borders.
CHAIRPERSON: You mean that was like a militarised zone, that whole area there?
SGT-MAJ MKHONTO: The whole area, even today it is designated as a game reserve because they can't use it for other purposes.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you very much. You're excused Sergeant-Major Mkhonto.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger.
MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, that is the case for the applicants.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga.
MS MTANGA: I have no evidence to give, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger have you got any submissions on the merits of the applications?
MR BERGER: Very briefly, Chairperson.
MR BERGER IN ARGUMENT: Chairperson, you've heard mainly General Nyanda's evidence about the reason for the campaign and the fact that the border areas had been really incorporated into the military establishment. Something I didn't know until I was preparing for this case, and it appears from page 135 of the bundle, is that and this is one of the annexures to General Nyanda's Further Particulars which he confirmed, is that in 1979 the Government then passed an Act called the Promotion of Density of Population in Designated Areas Act and
it's dealt with at page 135, which is very interesting because it's described as an Act which was passed in an attempt to stem - I'm reading from the second column
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)
MR BERGER: Third paragraph down. It was passed in an attempt to stem the exodus of white farmers from border areas and increase the number of farmers in these areas to serve as a barrier against the infiltration of guerillas from neighbouring states. At least R100 000 000-00 was made available over a period of five to six years for the provisions of loans to such farmers and for the construction of strategic roads and airstrips in these areas. It goes on to say that the Act stipulated that loans be given on condition that farms were managed according to SADF directives and that all white farmers in the area should undergo military training, be members of the Regional and Aerial Commandos and make themselves available to the SADF and Department of National Security to carry out reconnaissance and intelligence tasks whenever called on to do so. All were linked to the Commando system of part-time SADF forces and the military radio network known as Marnet. Many farm buildings were constructed in such a way as to constitute a chain of defence strongholds along the borders ready to be used by the SADF whenever necessary. The Act stipulated that the SADF was empowered to enter any property in the designated area, to demolish or erect military facilities or any other structure without the consent of the owner. And then it goes on to describe how the South African Agricultural Union, the South African Defence Force, the South African Police, the Department of National Security and Transport all participated in the sub-committee appointed by the Steyn Commission, to look into how the white farmer population could be included in the defence strategy of the apartheid regime.
Chairperson, I just indicate this section to emphasise the point made by Gen Nyanda and that was that the farmers along the border areas and in particular the border area that the three applicants that I represent were concerned with, were incorporated into the military establishment and I know that the Act with which we are all concerned, doesn't talk about legitimate targets, but that's become the phraseology of many amnesty hearings, and I would submit that quite clearly the farmers, quite apart from the SADF who were in the area, the SAP was in the area, that the farmers themselves were also legitimate targets because they had been incorporated into the military system.
Chairperson, it's also interesting to note that, you'll see from the bottom of page 135, that it reads that:
"In May 1983 regulations were introduced to tighten up the earlier legislation and in late 1994 the ten kilometre designated zone along the Zimbabwean/Botswana borders was increased to fifty kilometres. In addition there was extensive deployment of military and police counter-insurgency units along the borders and several operational bases were established."
So firstly there's this Act in 1979 and then the border, or what is designated the border area, gets significantly widened and this is a process which is started in 1979, strengthened in 1983 and Kletshwayo only kicks in as a special operation, a special project, in late 1985, so this is a significant time after the Government has attempted to, on is tempted to say rather cynically place the farmers there along the border as a buffer zone to ANC cadres who are infiltrating the country.
In our submission, Chairperson, there can be no doubt that the actions of all three of the applicants whom I represent today, were military actions done at the instance and behest of Umkhonto weSizwe, the legitimate army of the African National Congress, so there can be no doubt, Chairperson, in our submission, that all three applicants fall within the provisions of Section 20(ii) of the Act, in particular (ii)(a), (d) and (f).
It's unfortunate, but perhaps understandable, Chairperson, I mean we as applicants, but for Sgt-Maj Mkhonto, the other two applicants have been unable to say to the Committee exactly what incidents took place under their command and the reasons for that, I submit, are clear, but by the same token, Chairperson, it must be said that the victims who are listed at page 3 of the bundle, are not the only victims of the campaign. I don't know why, but there was a document that was sent to my instructing attorney, Ms Cambanis, from Mr Pumzo Stofile, the Evidence Analyst, who was working on this matter and there was a whole list of landmine incidents and both Gen Nyanda and Gen Shoke were asked whether they could comment on whether they knew or had knowledge of any of these incidents. They weren't able to take the matter very far, Chairperson, but it's evident from this list itself, that there were many more attacks and there were many more attacks on military personnel, army vehicles and military offices as well. It shouldn't, with respect, be thought that the bulk of those people who were injured, were civilians.
Where civilians were injured, it is really unfortunate and as you've heard from Sgt-Maj Mkhonto, that wasn't the intention at all. He gave a description to you, he said that on that road where the landmine was planted, he said that was six kilometres away from a big camp of counter-insurgency police, that was in one direction. It was five kilometres away from an SADF camp in another direction. There was no farming activity in the area, they kept the road under observation for three days,he was even able to describe to you how military vehicles would use that road, get to the cul-de-sac, then use their radios to the soldiers on the border, they would then come and collect supplies and so on, so it's evident, even from his evidence today, that that area was chosen for a specific reason and it wasn't just chosen at random and it wasn't chosen without regard to civilians, but as Gen Nyanda says, there's no war in which civilians aren't hurt. That's the unfortunate, that's the terrible part of war.
My attorney is referring me to a finding, well it's really an acknowledgement of the Commission, but I think Chairperson, it goes without saying, it's at page 334 of volume two, chapter four of the report of the TRC and it simply reads that:
"The Commission acknowledges the ANC's argument that by the mid-1980s the former South African Government had itself blurred the distinction between military and soft targets by declaring border areas as areas where farmers were trained and equipped to operate as an extension of military structures."
That's the evidence you've heard today, but where civilians were killed or injured, I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that that was deliberate.
It's not evidence, but even the statement that we were looking at at page - I'm looking at the transcribed version at page 100 of Mr Motsa's statement. At page 100 he says, middle of the page:
"Ek het aan die linkerkant agter op die bakkie gesit en my broer Robert Motha het regs agter op die bakkie gesit. Ons het met die halfpad tussen Diepgesit en Barberton gery in die reigting van Barberton. Voordat ons die Josefsdal afdraaipad gery het, het ons regs in 'n tweepad grondpad afdraaipad om Joel se vrou en skoonma af te laai."
which accords exactly with what Sgt-Maj Mkhonto says. This road, the description of the road that he gave to you, accords exactly with this, that it was this little - he says here, "we didn't even get" -
"Voordat ons die Josephsdal afdraaipad gery het, het ons regs in 'n tweepad grondpad afdraaipad gery",
so it was this small little road that they then turned off. Unfortunately, because it was a road going nowhere, but they were dropping off people who perhaps were going to walk somewhere, who knows? But it's a road off the main road, it's away from regular civilian traffic and that, in my submission, goes to to show the care that cadres like Sgt-Maj Mkhonto went to to ensure that civilians were not targeted and he said to you, he said: "We targeted Security Personnel, we targeted the military, we targeted the police, we didn't target civilians."
Chairperson, my submission is that all three applicants satisfied all the requirements for amnesty set out in Section 20(i) of the Act. There can be no suggestion that they haven't made full disclosure of all the relevant facts. It hasn't been put to them that they haven't made full disclosure of anything. Their actions were clearly political and I submit that all three of them are entitled to amnesty.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Berger.
MR BERGER: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, have you got any submissions?
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I wish to leave this matter in your hands. I will not be opposing this application. Thank you.
NO ARGUMENT BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Ms Mtanga. Yes, that concludes the formal proceedings at this stage. As we have indicated at the commencement of these proceedings this morning, we would have preferred to see that the logistical arrangements concerning this matter be dealt with more efficiently than it turned out to be. If I understand the position correctly,there is one interested party whom the Commission has been unable to ascertain whether he wishes to place any material before us, or has anything to contribute towards the decision in this matter. We have ruled this morning that it is in the interests of justice that at this stage the proceedings should carry on, as they have up to this point. However, Ms Mtanga, we would want you to continue to get a clear indication from Mr Motsa as to what his position is, so we would be prepared to consider any material that he wishes to put before us, so you will, in the circumstances, continue your contact with him and...
MS MTANGA: I will do so, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And indicate to Ms Cambanis and Mr Berger if there is anything that he wants to contribute so that they could then consider whether they would want to respond to anything that he might raise.
But under those circumstances, the formal proceedings are concluded at this stage. We will consider the evidence, all of the material that has been placed before us as well as the argument of Mr Berger and any possible further material that might be forthcoming and we will endeavour to come to a decision on the applications as soon as circumstances permit, but under those circumstances we would, at this stage, reserve the decision in the matter.
We would just take the opportunity to thank you Mr Berger for your assistance, Ms Cambanis and Ms Mtanga. It's appreciated.
I assume that takes care of the roll for the day as well?
MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson, that's the case.
CHAIRPERSON: And that the proceedings will reconvene?
MS MTANGA: On Thursday.
CHAIRPERSON: Thursday morning.
MS MTANGA: Yes for the Snyders and Kruger matter.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. We will then adjourn the proceedings and we will reconvene here on Thursday morning at 9 o'clock. We're adjourned.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
