CHAIRPERSON: I would like to call the next, in fact, what are three witnesses, all talking about the same incident. It is Hilda Phahle, Mamokete Malaza and Esther Mtembu. If the three could please come forward. Will you all be all right in English? What language would be most suitable for you? You will not need the ear-phones if you speak in English. Mrs Phahle, if you put the ear-phones on it would be easier. Can you hear that better? Is that all right, can you hear better now? Is that all right? You should be able to hear it in English with the microphone. We just want you to be comfortable. Is everybody comfortable? Ladies, are you all comfortable and can you hear us? Okay.
Thank you very much for coming. Please, we apologise for the fact that we are sitting up here and you are sitting down there. It doesn't mean anything. We are very much on the same level, you are here with friends, as you will have noticed. We are very grateful to you for coming. If I could just ask that all of you together don't need to stand to take the oath.
HILDA PHAHLE: (Duly sworn, states).
MAMOKETE MALAZA: (Duly sworn, states).
ESTHER MTEMBU: (Duly sworn, states).
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CHAIRPERSON: I have pleasure in introducing Joyce Seroke who will leave you in your evidence. Thank you, Joyce.
MS SEROKE: Mrs Phahle and Mrs Lydia Malaza and Mrs Esther Mtembu, we welcome you to these hearings today. We have decided to club you together because the three of you have in common and share a very terrible tragic incidence. You, as parents, as mothers, lost your sons, daughter-in-law and daughter in one of the worst massacres that happened outside the border of this country, in Botswana.
I will start with Mrs Phahle, and ask her to tell us about George, her son, his life, what he did before he went into exile and briefly describe how she heard about this terrible and tragic massacre.
MRS PHAHLE: George is my son and was self-employed. He used to sell wigs and then at one time he had a dry-cleaning business and so he went on all the time, being self-employed, doing things for himself. You asked many questions.
MS SEROKE: Just take your time and go on and tell us about your son and why he left the country and how you discovered regarding what happened to him.
MRS PHAHLE: Shall I read it?
MS SEROKE: Yes, please.
MRS PHAHLE: This relates to the Gaborone raid in 1985, but I will start from "is hulle dood, morsdood". These are the words of the South African Defence Force members after killing our children on lot 157157 in Gaborone, Botswana.
It all began on 10 December 1976, when police from John Vorster Square raided and ransacked our home. They did not have the decency to tell us what they were looking for. Their language was spiced with the violence of words. Yes,
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this was the beginning of the rest of our beloved son, George's life, which ended when he, his wife Lindy ne้ Malaza and her cousin Joseph Malaza, were brutally massacred in their home by the South African Defence Force in Botswana in Gaberone on the 14th of June 1985.
For us it was years of torment by John Vorster Square, who never tired of regularly raiding us as early as four am, knocking and kicking our doors so hard that even neighbours would get up to see us being humiliated by these earthly gods.
After they had been searching on this horrible day of December 10th 1976, Levi, our younger son was taken along with the words that he would be detained until they find what they were looking for.
At midday on the same day, he was returned after sitting with them in their car, near the entrance of the Standard Bank in Bramley, where they said he should identify his brother to them, as he may be coming to withdraw his savings.
The question always arises: who gave them all this information; how did the police happen to know so much? Only when Levi returned did we know that they were looking for George.
Sunday, the 12th of December 1976, was the consecration our bishop, not an Anglican though, at the Anglican Cathedral. As a church elder I was sitting in the front seat. I could not control my tears. I wept uncontrollably and the lady who was sitting next to me, took my programme and wrote "I can see you are under stress, contact me". She gave her phone number and name. This kind lady was Mrs Helen Suzman. I never had the guts to contact her.
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The Sunday Times was saying horrible things about my son. City Press was the only exception. It gave a very consoling report, written by the editor, Mr Percy Gopoza.
The first week in 1979 we were informed telephonically by a friend of George that he has requested us to fetch his car from a panel-beaters in Mayfair and pay R80,00. Then thereafter continued to pay the monthly instalments at Donart Motors.
We went to pay the instalments and were asked for his whereabouts. We replied that we did not know. To avoid all their questions we ended up saying we learnt he is in hospital. They wanted to know which hospital, but we said we did not know. They then also knew about the panel-beaters.
Donart Motors accepted my suggestion that I would keep the car and continue paying the instalments until his return. Later they refused the car and said if I wanted it I should start paying from scratch. That was our first major loss.
We went to the panel-beaters where we found the car imposing on the middle of the street. The tyres were deflated, yet somebody was busy polishing it. That was the last time we saw it.
At the entrance stood an immaculately dressed white man with his jacket hanging by his finger over his shoulder. Inside, wherever we looked, were blacks dressed in overalls, like the one cleaning the car outside.
We were shown into a glass-partitioned office. On entering we were surprised to find so many people in such a small office. They all looked like bookkeepers, as they were busy with books and some pretending to be sipping tea.
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We introduced ourselves. I told them our mission and took out the R80,00 for the panel-beating, what we were told was R80,00, I paid.
A woman asked me in Xhosa whose name she should write on the receipt. I replied H Phahle or Cecil Phahle, Cecil is George's other name. Then a white woman said by the way, your son is in a hospital somewhere and we agreed. As we moved towards the small door we were confronted by one of the men we thought were workers, who said I am major so-and-so who searched your house the other day, you both are under arrest. All those workers were police.
When Donart Motors asked us when we were going to the panel-beaters, we said we were on our way there. So they shuffled their cards well, reported to the panel-beaters and to John Vorster Square.
On our way out I was handed over to the immaculately dressed man at the entrance. My husband left with the major in our car. Into the green/white Chev 4100 I went. Along the way to John Vorster Square, I travelled with a gentleman, but as soon as we entered the building I discovered I was moving with a Dr Jekyll and a Mr Hyde. He hurled rude words to me in Afrikaans. As I could not walk fast, it was just "jou stink" (you stink) one after another. I don't have to put in that word.
We eventually reached the grilling court where we were thoroughly grilled and told we would be held in detention until we told them the hospital where George was. We were surrounded by blacks as we were interrogated by the major - who did not listen to our side of the story. I stood my ground and I even spoke my way out. My husband was so disillusioned. He became suspicious and was ultimately sent
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to a cell. The major kept the car keys, phoned my pastor in Alexandra to come and fetch me, as it was too late. When my husband was ushered to the cell, I asked the black policeman whether I could bring his toiletries. I was rudely answered ( ... not translated ...) The major heard us as he was passing. He asked what was happening. I told them, and to my greatest delight he gave them a good drubbing and instructed them to answer my question, which they did briefly, 11 o'clock pasasa.
I stood outside waiting and waiting for someone to fetch me. Looking at the watch at John Vorster Square, I cursed the government for all the powers they misused on us blacks. Then to my surprise I saw a car approaching. My husband was driving. The major had sent for him, given him the car keys, told him to pick me up as he could still see me waiting, he could see me through the window.
By then he says he had already cleaned the filthy cell he had been thrown into. He demanded a broom and a pen and cleaned up. To this day our car is still gone.
This was only the beginning.
For years we suffered, not only the agony of a son in exile, but the constant harassment and all the vile language and unpleasant things reported about us as well. We knew where he was but to avoid detention we lived on lives. They would tap the phone and say this thing tells us everything, "julle lieg" (you are lying). In other words, our phone was tapped.
In 1984 we decided so far and no further. We went to visit George whose wife was employed by the Botswana government as a social worker. This was really the beginning of the end. My question will always be: who was the ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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informer.
At the border we were thoroughly searched. We were shown George's picture and instructed to tell him to come back to South Africa.
We went back the second time and on our way we were stopped in Zeerust and led to the police station. We spent more than two hours under questioning by the lieutenant, who insisted that we must persuade George to come back, and that they would offer him whatever business he ran in Botswana. Not coming to terms with what he was saying, he rudely told us of a very good friend of George whose name he would not divulge, who has been feeding him with all the information they had. He ended up by saying that if he refuses to come back he is going to die a very "gevaarlike dood" (a very terrible death), and which he died.
MS SEROKE: Mrs Phahle, take a glass of water and compose yourself, take your time. We understand that this is terrible.
MRS PHAHLE: Yes, those are the words, that if he did not come back he was going to die a "baie gevaarlike dood" (a very terrible death) and so he died.
In May 1985 security police visited my sister, Mrs Marilyn Sipamla in Wadeville. Mind you, this is not the first visit, this was, I suppose the ultimate one. They told her that they had reliable information that she grew up with George and were very fond of each other. She agreed. They further wanted to know if she knows his thereabouts. She said only recently. They wanted to know if he had ever visited her and she replied no. Why, they asked, because she did not know his thereabouts, was her reply. Asked whether she would now do so as she knows where he is, she
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replied yes, when they asked.
Being a teacher, she told them she would do so when the schools closed. Answering to their question she said the schools closed on the 14th of June. At this point she says they looked at each other and one said "dit sal te laat wees" (that will be too late). True enough, they knew what they were saying, because in the early hours of June the 14th, the radio was announcing a very successful raid into Botswana by the South African Defence Force. They destroyed ANC bases and came back safely.
Later on in the same programme, but in Pedi, I was disgusted, because I heard the announcer saying (... not translated ...) and they were proudly announcing these things.
I took the phone and tried to phone George in Lindi, but drew a blank. I phoned a friend in Botswana, who got a shock when she heard my voice, but had to tell me that they were both dead.
How does a parent receive such horrible news? How does a parent react to such devastating news? All I said is, My God, My God, have You forsaken me?
I put on courage and phoned Lindi's mother. Later in the day Levi phoned to break the news, telling us that Joseph was also killed and that he had survived because he was hiding. He survived because he was hiding. They killed Joseph, thinking that it was Levi.
The pride of the South African government was backed by the media, the radio, the Press, the TV. We had horribly distorted stories about George. We heard terrible things about him from the radio. We saw pictures of his house on TV and all the damages, the car, the clothing, the
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furniture. His picture appeared on TV, showing the world the terrible man, that was so dangerous to South Africa.
Surely, we were tortured beyond discretion. We were turned into polecats. We got to Botswana and found a different atmosphere. People were lamenting the loss of life with dignity and honour. A Christian spirit prevailed throughout, but what we found was most horrifying. The Defence Force had acted like uncivilised hooligans. They acted the way no Christian would. They were barbarians. If our children were guilty of any crime, they should have been brought back for trial. Why kill them? The helper was saved by the fact that she did not sleep in her room that night, but all her belongings were destroyed. We even had to buy her a wardrobe and compensate her for her clothes.
The death of her son and his wife left us sleepless. To this day I cannot forget or sleep properly. My husband died three and a half years later. I had to see to George's daughter, whose name is Gaberone, through school and university, and this is my only consolation.
Our children fled this oppression of this country. They went into exile, fighting for their rights, for the land of their birth, the land of their forefathers. They were tortured beyond reason and fled. The enemy followed them and brutally massacred them, "morsdood", (dead, dead), yes, "morsdood, (dead, dead).
It is now time and it is their right to rest in peace on the soil where they were born, the soil they died for. It is time they were brought home to be buried where we can visit them at our convenience. "Hulle is dood, morsdood" - they are dead, dead, dead). Words by the South African Defence Force on that fateful night of June 13/14 1985, on
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lot 15717 Gaberone, Botswana, by the South African Defence Force. The victims, George Phahle, our son, who tried to make ends meet by running a transport business on a hired permit in Botswana; Lindi, BA Social Sciences, his wife, employed as a social worker by the Botswana Government; Joseph Malaza, Lindi's cousin who was just visiting there for the night. Survivor: Levi, our younger son who lived to tell the story and was adversely affected.
He tells the gruesome story of how the South African Defence Force arrived swearing and behaving like people well-drugged and drunk, ordering George to open the door. The door was blown open. Instead of opening George and Lindi ran into his bedroom, locked the door, and pushed his portable piano against it. Lindi through herself face down in a corner. George fell over her as a sign of protection. There was nothing impossible with these murderers. They blew the door open, pushed it and the piano fell against Levi's bed under which he was hiding. God spared him to tell the story.
He watched from under the bed as they pumped bullets ...
MS SEROKE: Take your time, Mrs Phahle. We understand.
MRS PHAHLE: He watched from under the bed as they pumped bullets into his brother and his wife, bullets penetrating them simultaneously. They turned them over face upwards and one asked "is hulle dood?" - (are they dead)? "Morsdood" - stone dead) was their reply.
Levi broke down as bullets were pumped into Joseph who was hiding in a wall unit in the main bedroom. On killing Joseph they were convinced they had killed Levi. In other words, I would have lost two sons on that day.
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The house was damaged beyond repair. It was proclaimed uninhabitable. All the furniture was bullet-damaged, nothing in the wardrobe was spared by the police. The helper, Flora who survived because she slept out, found her room in shambles. In front of the house, in the street, stood a damaged bus. In the yard they found a Ballade - a new one, mind you - which belonged to Lindi, which was burnt out. A bakkie had bullet holes right round. The Beetle had bullets pumped into the engine.
It is not compensation that is important, what is important is the loss of life. Life which we cannot bring back. "Ja, hulle is morsdood" - (yes, they are stone dead). Who are they who said these words? Why don't they come forward? Thank you.
MS SEROKE: Thank you, Mrs Phahle, for that very sad account of what happened to George, Lindi and Joseph. From what you were telling us, you didn't only suffer this loss, you and your husband were also terribly harassed during the time they were looking for George. I will not ask you questions at this juncture, I will proceed to Mrs Malaza, to give her own account about what happened to her daughter, who was your daughter-in-law, Mrs Phahle.
MS SEROKE: Although this news is very painful, but I will just ask you to add on the words that were mentioned by Mrs Phahle, as she was telling us about George and your daughter Lindi.
I will ask you to tell us in your own words, just to add, if there is anything to add about Lindi.
MRS MALAZA: I will just add to what she has said, because she has said all the things that I would have said. I was woken up on the 14th of June, when she asked me have I heard ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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what has happened. She said everything has been destroyed in Botswana. I wanted to know why. She said our children are no longer alive. I couldn't answer at all. As she proceeded with the explanation ... (END OF TAPE 4 - SIDE B).
... they said that they were told by the South African Police. We were hurt and we made arrangements to travel to Botswana. On our arrival at Botswana we saw that all the cars were damaged. Just before we went into the house we could see that it was a big thing.
MS SEROKE: Please take your time and rest if you need to.
MRS MALAZA: We went into the house. As we entered the house we found that everything was damaged, the TV, everything, even the lounge suite. Even though I tried to bring the lounge suite to try and maybe upholster it, but it was dirty, everything was just damaged. But I was wondering as to why would they kill them and even damage everything that we could perhaps console ourselves with. Really, they killed Lindi, they really killed her.
MS SEROKE: We know that this hurts. Just take your time.
MRS MALAZA: We never managed to spend the night, we could not even sleep. The situation was just tense. We made arrangements to go to the mortuary the following day. When we got there we established that they were dead. As to why they were killed we don't know. They were killed because they were members of the ANC.
After her graduation in Gonye, they were looking for her because she was an ANC member. Therefore she ran away. She was the eldest daughter. I had hopes that she would help me through, to support me, but only to find out that I was lying to myself. They would kill her before the time came for her to help me.
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I don't know what to say. They destroyed our lives. From thereon I am just a helpless person. I can't go anywhere. From thereon I was just a useless person. I was so hurt. I don't know how can I tell you, but we buried them. Even though we buried them far away, because when we wished to visit their graves, it seemed to be very far. We don't know what to do. If it is possible for them to be brought back so that we are able to visit them whenever we feel like it. That is the end of my testimony.
MS SEROKE: Thank you. I will proceed now to Mrs Esther Mtembu, who will tell us her side of the story, regarding Joseph.
MRS MTEMBU: I would like to thank you. I don't have a clear picture as to what happened. However, I will say that on Monday I was sewing clothes for a wedding. The customers needed the clothes. Joseph came to the main house with 25 litre of paint. We were extending our house. Joseph came with this 25 litre of paint and he said to me mom, I am going to paint your house today and you will have to move into your house. I told him I am still busy sewing the wedding dress. I said to him I will leave you here, I will have to go to town.
I left for town, it was early in the morning. Later he came back and I found that the other people were working were around, but Joseph wasn't there. Joseph had a car in Botswana. Some people had hired it but they never brought the car back. He knows where the car is. Joseph said they can't drive to Johannesburg and he said I will go there and bring the car back. He said he will be coming the next day. That was on Tuesday or Wednesday, some time round about there. He sent me a telegraph to say mamma, excuse me, I am ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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painting, I will come back on Saturday. But Joseph never came. Joseph never came. Until on a Wednesday or on a Thursday, Malaza, Lindi's mother sent three people to my place to say they want to see me now, now, now, I must come to her place. I said I am so busy, but what does she want me for. These girls say no, they don't know, but she says please, come now. Okay, I left my work. They came by car. I jumped into the car. We drove to her place. When I got to her place I find there was a big crying, wild crying, they were crying the people, drinking water, tablets, others kneeling down, others on the bed. It was just all that mixed-up. Now I clap my hands and said oh, oh, oh, what is all this noise, what is all this crying, so wild, what is wrong, what is wrong, really, you don't have to cry so wildly. I clap my hands over and over until at long last the cry was coming ... After the crying died down they said to me at Phahle place's, that all the children in Botswana are dead. Now I just said but it is too much, stop crying. And now when they said Joseph, Joseph is also dead. Oh ... I couldn't cry, but I said look now, we don't have to cry, Botswana is not here, we have got to go for passports. I haven't got a passport but the rest of the people who were there said their passports have been taken to be stamped for Botswana.
The boys who were driving Joseph's car at home came too and I said to them okay, we are not going to stay here, we are going to Faraday for the passport. We drove to (indistinct). We didn't go to the queue, we went straight to the counter and told them our story. Those whites said okay, we shall do the same, go and take the photo, go and take your photos and you come back with them. They really
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made us a quick service. They stamped everything and said now you are all right, you can go at any time. Okay.
Our driver, when everything was all right now, when we are going home, one of these chaps say mamma, you know, we can't go straight home, we have got to go to the legal advisers, people who are in the know, and find out how we are going to get to Botswana, is it safe or what. So we drove to a certain lawyer, and I don't know that lawyer, but these chaps know him. So he told us that no, if you people have the money you can rather take a plane, fly over, bring your deceased by aeroplane. Then I said no, I don't want to go any crooked ways, I want to go straight, straight, I can't take a plane, I can't afford, but I want to get to Botswana. So they said okay, from now on, that lawyer says okay, now you can go to John Vorster, because you are a relative, you can get to Pretoria. We drove straight past our place, straight to Pretoria. When we got to Pretoria, we told those police that we were on such a mission, my son has died and I would like to go and pick him up, if there is nothing behind that. This man who was in charge of us, he says wait, I am going to call our senior, we are going to check on the list that if your son is that side, did he go clear, he is going to check on the lists to all the people who are on their list, who are clear or who ran away, whatever. Okay. So okay, wait for us, we will call you there. We waited outside there, until this chap called us back and said now you can come in, here is the man who is checking. He came and told us no, I have gone through all the books, Joseph's name is not there, he is not there. So it means that Joseph is clear. If you want to go and fetch your child you can do so. You can do whatever you want, you
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can even bury him that side or you can bring him wherever you want.
Okay. I then asked this man okay, we want to (... (speaker's mike is off).
... received a letter that were from you, the police and you have cleared us that we can fetch the body. He said no, you can go there, there is no trouble, we are well-known throughout South Africa. I said no, man, that is always a lot of hindrance in the streets here, give us a written paper. He refused and he said go, there won't be any trouble.
Really, from there we went to the undertakers. We asked them couldn't they go and fetch the body of Joseph. The undertaker said it is too expensive, it will cost you lots of money. Otherwise if you had a Kombi we can give you a coffin, you drive to Botswana with our coffin and then you collect and bring him here to us. Okay.
Okay. We went home. The friends of Joseph who had parked already at home, they said mamma, don't worry, we are going to help you with the Kombi, we are going to the garage and they got a brand-new Kombi. We got the Kombi, we got ready and we were to be on our way. We are on our way now to Botswana. These boys, one of the drivers know exactly where Botswana is. Now we are four, two ladies and two gents. We drove to Botswana. At the border there were a lot of complications, that one of the drivers could not go through, he had to remain behind and he said he is all right. They told him you can get your entrance at Zeerust, you can stay here, tomorrow you wake up you go to Zeerust, they will fix-up your papers.
Now we got to Botswana. We went to the police station.
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We wanted to sleep at th police station because it was late now. So there we told them our story and we told them we came by Kombi. They said do you know any people here? No, me, I didn't know anybody, because I have never been at Linda's place, I have never been at George's place.
So we told them we don't know anybody but we took a Kombi, we will sleep here at the police station in the Kombi. They said here in Botswana the police station closes very early, at seven o'clock and everybody knocks off. Nobody stays here. So the lady who accompanied me said she knows a family at Botswana by the name of Haborere. They checked on their lists and they got the businessman. They said no, we know this chap. Then she says I think we can sleep there.
We went to this man's place and he received us. We slept there. The next morning we went up to the police station. I don't know all the other things now. We went to the mortuary and it was stinking, it was smelling. This man says I doubt because the mortuary is so small, if you people are not afraid to go in, but you will see things are wrong, there is nothing that has been arranged, the bodies lie open, (indistinct) business and all that.
Now from the smell of that I got so frightened and I said I am no man, I have nobody who is going to escort me, if I want to see. But the thing with me was I was a bit doubtful, is Joseph really dead, could Joseph just go out without saying good-bye to me, and then he goes and meets his death there? Okay we sat there.
Seven days or six days we were in Botswana. Every day they pick us up to go to the church, the Anglican church. A lot of people gathered there for prayers and what else I
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don't know. I was just, my head was just ... Because Joseph at home is everything. He is our father, he manages the whole family, their children. With me Joseph is my proud, he is like everything. He built a home for us. It was small, he extended it, he jumps about, he does everything. He has got cars. He says mother, I don't want you to work hard, you must always knock off when I am doing sewing. He says knock off and get yourself dressed, I will take you out. Now I was just thinking now at home, what will my home be. I stayed seven days, I was just wondering, is it true, Joseph is dead? Okay.
Then we went to George's place. Now we got there. The house was bombarded, showing us where Linda and George were killed and now where Joseph was in the wardrobe, they bombarded that wardrobe. Everything in the wardrobe was burned to pieces, pieces, pieces. Fortunately for me I didn't see during - the Johannesburg people saw the accident what happened in Botswana. I wasn't at the radio, but I heard the next morning, all the people coming, coming to say mamma, did you see what happened. I said I didn't see anything. They said oh, thanks, you are very lucky; you are very lucky that you didn't see the terrible things happening to those people. They knew Joseph, they even knew his shoe in Botswana over the radio. But thanks God, I didn't see Joseph.
Okay. We stayed there, going to the service every afternoon until the last day when the government of Botswana called all the people, that's all the people who were killed there are going to be buried. Wednesday, in the morning, when we got to the scene, there were big white sheets, with the names of the people who had been killed. I don't know
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whether there were seven that were going to be buried that day, but their names were all there. I was reading all these names, I don't know them. I don't know them, I was looking for Joseph. I thought if Joseph's name is not there, but right down at the bottom there, there I saw Joseph Malaza. Then I believed my son is really amongst this lot that is killed. I pleaded, I wanted to take Joseph back to Soweto. Now these people in Botswana were delaying so much. They kept on saying no, we are getting calls that Joseph must be buried here. I said no, Joseph is not going to be buried here, we are taking Joseph home. The days were going, I cried at the office and they all cried there. I cried. They said they telexed Pretoria and they are waiting for an answer, we can't take Joseph back.
The seventh day I got mad. I got mad. I said boetie, time is too long now. At home they don't know what is happening. Till at last they filled in the death forms and embalmed Joseph, whatever they did with him. They were saying you can't go through unless you bring four papers with you. These ministers that did all these things, I was just muddled up. But at long last when I come with the papers, and I said now we are on our way.
I didn't see Joseph all the time. Sorry, Joseph had his black coffin we came with and there was a coffin made of iron, sealed. It was soldered with copper. Ja, with that, copper. When we got to the border gates the people wanted to open that. We said, we haven't seen what is inside. They wanted to make sure is it the body. We said yes, here are the papers, we don't know either.
They struggled to open the coffin at the border, trying to open the coffin. They couldn't, until they let us pass.
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This is Joseph's story. We buried Joseoph.
I think Linda, George and the rest of the people who died, who did go to Botswana, their side and all those who died were buried that end, but now I was leaving with my son, coming back to Johannesburg. I came here to Johannesburg, but in Botswana they gave me a letter and an assurance that with you mamma, the government will give you a compensation and they have got to give you every month an amount of about R60,00 per month. When you leave here, when you are through you must go to Kottle House and ask for Tutu. After that I got all these things finished with the funeral. The Dutch people came before the funeral. They said you are not going to bury, we are going to search your whole house, there are some documents that we are looking for. I said no, you can do whatever you want, but Joseph is not having them. Then there were Joseph's friends. They said why, you are Joseph's friends, we are taking you with to Pretoria. So we went, me and that chap went to Pretoria. They questioned him and they locked him up, but I said to these people, please, this is not my child, I wanted to give them the assurance that really you will bring him back. Yes, later in the day they brought him back. They said in my home and in his home they didn't get anything.
Okay. Joseph was buried. Then I went to Kottle House, looking for Mr Tutu. When I got there they said mamma, please stay out, they were photographing that Kottle House, the police, the Europeans, they said any time, any time here, this building may be bombed at any time, and you can't see Tutu, not at this very moment. Okay. The other ladies advised me, because you are already from Botswana, Tutu you can't see but go to this man. They gave me a lawyer by the
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name of Khakha here in town. When we came there this man says ja, I have heard your story, and there is nothing that prevents the government not to compensate at all, but I cannot take this case. If you are not afraid, can you go to Pretoria by yourself. I said you knowing the law, why? He says no, no, no, I cannot take the case. Okay, he took the case. I think it was on the 19th of - Joseph died in June - July, August we went to Pretoria. I am now asking for these people to give me the compensation, because here are our children who are left by Joseph's sister who died. These children are pestering me, granny, we want to be educated. Up till now, up till now I have children who are at school, they are every day asking granny, give us money, we are owing at school. I said ask for a scholarship. Now these children are asking me every day. They are fighting with me, I must get money to educate them. Then I go to the Truth Commission and ask them that we want to be educated, you are old you have no money, we want money.
Now when I went to Pretoria they said okay, you go to the Native Affairs. I went there and they only said bring the children's reports. I went to court with the children, they wrote their names and said now you have a maternal grandmother who is going to help ... (END OF TAPE ...)
MS SEROKE: What had George done, according to the police who were asking you these questions?
MRS PHAHLE: The police never told us anything. Even the day when they first came there on the 10th of December, I asked one of the policeman. They wouldn't allow us to - they searched the house, the main house. George had a room in the yard. After searching they went to the yard, they found other rooms occupied. Then there was one room that was
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locked and they wanted to know whose room that was. The tenants said it is George's room. So they came up to us and they demanded the key. We went and opened and I still remember George had been there during the week, he had bought some underpants and vests and I put them on his bed. So when I wanted to get that, he drove me away, in the vulgarest language he can. I asked one black man what has happened? He just shook his head and said ( ... not interpreted ...) and I knew what that "akul, akul" was. Except the Press, which everybody was able to follow, and the TV that I was able to relate, they knew more than what knew, things that I did not know about George, which I cannot relate even now, because I do not know whether those things were true. You relate a thing that you know is true but not what you hear and say on paper.
MS SEROKE: Was George a member of any political party?
MRS PHAHLE: I cannot say yes and I cannot say no, because during those days if you belonged to the ANC you had to move underground. If you belonged to any political party, you had to move underground and not underground to sabotage, but you know, you had to lie low, because you would be in trouble. So I wouldn't say I knew that George belonged to any political organisation or what. I wouldn't say I knew.
MS SEROKE: Why did he leave the country and decide to go and settle in Botswana?
MRS PHAHLE: Well, they looked for him, they wanted him, they knew best what he had done. He skipped the country and he settled in Botswana. That we did not discuss because we could not discuss anything. He skipped without telling me, I did not even know that he was skipping.
MS SEROKE: And both you and your husband, after the
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continual harassment that you had to go through, must have felt that if George is away in another country, surely he now should be safe and free. And lo, this happened then. How did you feel about that?
MRS PHAHLE: Well, George, as I say, we lived on lies, I read that, we lived on lies. When they raided us, whenever they raided us, they would say have you heard from him, and we would say no. Then they would tap the phone and
say "die ding praat, jong, julle lieg" - (this thing talks, man, you are lying), which meant that our phone was tapped. He was getting in touch with us all the time and were able to, but we would not call him by his name. We had to somehow get in touch with him somehow. He would phone us, but when he ultimately settled with Lindi now, there we now had direct contact with him.
MS SEROKE: When they were in Botswana and Levi joined them, before the massacre, George was just doing his business. Could you tell us what this business was that he was doing? Because you mentioned something like he was carrying, you know, people in ...
MRS PHAHLE: George had left the country, I think he had a few cents with him. When he got there, I think he - I say I think, because I didn't see - bought an old something, which I think probably Mrs Malaza would explain what it, she knows. Something just to transport people from one place to another in Botswana. I don't know whether it was a bakkie or what. He grew steadily, hired someone's licence and started running some buses there in Botswana, between Labatsi and Gaberone.
MS SEROKE: Well, we heard your request, both you and Mrs Malazy, that you would like at least their remains to be
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sent back home, so that you could do whatever honours you want to perform. We will recommend this to our R & R and see if such a thing could be possible.
MRS PHAHLE: We would be very grateful.
MS SEROKE: I will ask my colleagues to ask questions if, they have any.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Joyce. Hlenywe Mkhize?
MS MKHIZE: For me it is not a question, it is just a small comment. Regarding your request that you would like their remains to be brought back to this country. I just want to indicate to you that within the Commission already we have advanced in terms of formulating policy guidelines as to how should people who struggled outside, who didn't survive, be honoured back in their country. As I was listening I was looking at Mrs Malaza and I was thinking of Lindi a lot. Lindi, during our student years was confident, very independent, immature for our age and within Sasso(?) she played a major role during our student years. It will be important for people like those to be remembered in this country so that that kind if history is not forgotten. Much as we are sad today, but we are proud of them. They played a major role. We wouldn't be sitting here if it wasn't for people like themselves, who made major sacrifices and sacrificed their youth.
CHAIRPERSON: Yasmin Sooka?
MS SOOKA: No, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Phahle, Mrs Malaza and Mrs Mtembu, I can't really add anything to what you have told us. I can't add any comfort, but I think I would like to think that the message that you have given us today, which has come through so clearly, and so eloquently from all three of you, talking ALEXANDRA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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about this incident, and about the effects on your children, I would like to think that that is a message that has come through not only to us and to all of us who are sitting here and who have been so privileged to hear it, that I would like to think it is also a message that is going out to those people whom you have named.
You have described very graphically the activities and the responses of those in authority, particularly those in authority in the Army, the SADF. Recently in Cape Town there was a submission from the SADF, talking about their activities. There was no understanding, no recognition in that statement of any of the realities that you have told us about today. That is one area that we need responses from, that we need them to come forward to answer the charges that you have laid in such clear ways. We need responses from the people who were the superiors at that time, in 1988, 1985. We need responses as well, you have named also very graphically.
You have named what happened the day afterwards, back here in Johannesburg. What was done in the media, and how the media added to the triumphalism of that attack. That also is something that needs to be responded to, that needs to be faced, that needs to be admitted to and for which there needs to be an apology or an explanation or both, from those quarters.
I would say thank you very much for that. Because what you have given us is a very graphic account which goes to the heart of everybody, and which is unanswerable in the way that you have put it. For that I would like to thank all three of you very, very much. Our condolences go to you for that experience.
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Just by way of tribute, I think, before we break for lunch, we are very pleased that a local choir from Alex has come in to sing one short song. Linda Twhala will usher them in. So if people could please sit quietly while they sing for us. Then we will break for lunch.
Good people, please, good people please keep quiet and just remain quiet for a few minutes more, please, out of respect for the previous three witnesses. Please remain quiet. It won't take long.
CHOIR FROM ALEXANDRA
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