DR ALLY: Could I ask Roselyna Magqagqa to come to the witness stand please. Good day to you Mama Magqagqa and welcome. I’ll ask Mr Tom Manthata to assist you with your statement. Will you please raise your right hand to take the oath. Do you swear the testimony which you’ll give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God.
MRS MAGQAGQA: (sworn states)
DR ALLY: Thank you, Mama. You are also coming to speak to us about the bucket protest which we’ve just heard about and your son Boetie, Enock who was killed during that protest. I’m now going to hand you over to Mr Manthata who’s going to assist you. Thank you.
MR MANTHATA: Mrs Magqagqa, Roselyna, we welcome you. Feel at home. Can you please tell us how you make a living. Are you working ?
MRS MAGQAGQA: I’m not working but I do get a pension from DEBA.
MR MANTHATA: Why from DEBA ?
MRS MAGQAGQA: It’s my old age pension. I never got any money from where I was working before.
MR MANTHATA: Have you got any sons or daughters ?
MRS MAGQAGQA: I have a son as well as a daughter and my son has got a house in Orange Farm.
MR MANTHATA: And the daughter ?
MRS MAGQAGQA: She’s also got her own place at Mandla and I’m left with my son who is on my left.
MR MANTHATA: Is your son working ? The one on your left.
MRS MAGQAGQA: Yes, he is.
MR MANTHATA: Can you tell us about this incident when your son Enock was shot and killed.
MRS MAGQAGQA: I do not have much to say in connection with how he was shot because I was not present at that moment. All that I know is that Enock was shot fatally. I received a telephone call from the hospital that my son was at the hospital. When I enquired what had happened I was told that he had been shot and he had died. That’s all that I can furnish this Commission with.
MR MANTHATA: Was there never any inquest into the death of Boetie ?
MRS MAGQAGQA: No, I’ve never seen a policeman at my place nor was there any investigation. No policeman came to my place.
MR MANTHATA: At the time didn’t the Civic or whatever group, come to your assistance ? Looking or seeking defence ?
MRS MAGQAGQA: No, the only people who came to me came the following day after the incident. Afterwards I went to the hospital to find out what had happened and when I got to the hospital I was told that he was at the mortuary. I went to the mortuary to identify him and I came back home.
MR MANTHATA: On the day of burial, didn’t the people who were organizing the marches come to offer help of some kind ?
MRS MAGQAGQA: Yes, there were people who came to assist me with regard to the burial and the Comrades were also present and there were also women who might have been from the Women’s League or from different societies. They came to assist.
MR MANTHATA: Could all these people not help you to get a legal defence ?
MRS MAGQAGQA: No.
MR MANTHATA: How old was Boetie at the time of his death ?
MRS MAGQAGQA: If I’m not mistaken he was twenty eight years old.
MR MANTHATA: So he was working already ?
MRS MAGQAGQA: Yes, he was.
MR MANTHATA: Did he have his own family ?
MRS MAGQAGQA: No, but he had a girlfriend who bore his baby. They were not married.
MR MANTHATA: I understand you to say that he was supporting you and the baby and even the lady that he had not married yet.
MRS MAGQAGQA: No, he hadn’t yet started maintaining his child because we were preparing for a wedding.
MR MANTHATA: So you maintain that you were the only person that he was supporting at that time ?
MRS MAGQAGQA: Yes, I could say that because his father had died by then. The following week Boetie died.
MR MANTHATA: Where was he working ?
MRS MAGQAGQA: He was working at Claasen’s place. I don’t know whether it’s a company or a partnership.
MR MANTHATA: What did the firm do for him ?
MRS MAGQAGQA: Claasen bought the coffin.
MR MANTHATA: No further questions, Mrs Magqagqa.
DR ALLY: Mama Magqagqa, you say in your statement that you don’t know who shot your son and you would like to know who shot your son. According to the testimony of the previous witness and also according to other statements given by people who were also involved in this protest said that the Councillor at the time shot randomly at the crowd who were gathering outside his place and who were protesting and demonstrating. Did you not hear anything about that ? That it could have been one of the bullets from the Councillor who was shooting into the crowd, that killed your son. Were you ever told anything ?
MRS MAGQAGQA: No, I never heard anything about that.
DR ALLY: Did you ever have an occasion to discuss with the previous witness who says that he was together with your son, Mr Mnisi, when this councillor shot at them, Enock Jafta ?
MRS MAGQAGQA: No, I’ve never had an opportunity to speak to him. This is the very first time that I’ve heard about my son’s death and I thank him for come forward to explain to me how my son died. It’s the very first time that I heard how he died.
DR ALLY: Maybe we can ask our staff, our briefers later to-day to arrange for you to actually speak to Mr Mnisi just to get more information. Do you want to say something ?
MR MAGQAGQA: What I’d like to explain to this Commission is that my mother is quite forgetful. When my brother was shot I was with him as well as Mr Mnisi who has just testified before this Commission and even when I came back from the hospital I explained to my mother how my brother died and that he was at the hospital. I also told her that he had been shot. When I explained to my mother, she said she’d already received a telephone call telling her that my brother had already died. They also requested me to take my brother’s clothes with and I refused because I thought he would need clothes when he gets discharged. I left the clothes and I think by then he was dead but they were scared to tell me. With regard to help from the community is that we ran away afterwards because the police were looking for us. When I came back home on a Thursday just before the funeral, I discovered that there were some people collecting money. Ten rand from each house in order to help us meet with the funeral expenses. They said we were not going to be able to conduct the funeral service because it would constitute having an illegal gathering. We tried to negotiate and make decisions as to how we were going to bury my brother since we were prohibited from doing so. I met the people who were collecting the money. The donation was five hundred rand which helped us with the funeral expenses. That is how the community contributed towards my brother’s funeral. As to the shooting itself, according to the programme we were going to take the buckets and spill the feces at the Administration block and then we would proceed to the Councillors’ houses. After we had spilled the feces at the Administration block we explained to the Comrades that we were proceeding to the Councillors’ houses because there were a lot of boycotts that were going on as well as taxi boycotts but we wanted to put more pressure on the Local Council. There was a certain woman whose son was also involved. We boycotted her son’s taxis. I think at that time, my brother who has just testified, was talking to the Councillor or the late Councillor, trying to reason with him not to use his firearm. He told us that the Councillor wanted to shoot us and three minutes thereafter we saw one of the people who were involved coming to report to us that the Councillor had already shot quite a number of people and he was firing randomly. Somebody told me to try and get some transport to take my brother to the hospital. I went to check and saw that he had been shot in the right eye. There were two more people who were shot. I organized some transport to take them to the hospital. My mother is quite forgetful and she’s not able to explain what happened because at that time she was in a state of confusion because of my father’s death as well as my brother’s death.
DR ALLY: Thank you very much for clarifying that for us. What happened after the death of your brother ? Was this matter ever taken any further ?
MR MAGQAGQA: There was an investigation after my brother’s death. I can say that the very same day that I came back from the hospital, I contacted the Chairman of the Local ANC Branch after I got home. I could not get hold of him because the police had already started arresting people and I was only able to see them in the evening around about seven p.m. I explained to them what had happened to my brother as well as other Comrades. We were not able to meet and talk because some of our members had been arrested and insofar as my brother is concerned, I don’t remember any investigation taking place. I was told that the investigating officer said he wanted people, or the person who gave them a directive to take the buckets and throw them at the Administration block. The investigation was one sided. It was with regard to who instructed the people to have this march and not who killed my brother.
DR ALLY: The Councillor who was killed, do you have any idea as to how he was eventually killed ? Did you hear anything ?
MR MAGQAGQA: The information that I have in my possession is what I’ve been told by people who saw. They said they chased the Councillor but at that time I was confused because I was trying to get some transport for my brother to take him to the hospital as he was still breathing at that time as well as Mnisi. So I organized transport to take them to the hospital. Thereafter I went and followed the crowd that was running after the Councillor. They were quite a distance from me and I was not able to catch up. I turned around and went back to the hospital. When I came back from the hospital, I tried to find out what happened. I will not be able to mention this person’s name, that is the person who told me what happened. When I was at the hospital I met this Comrade and I told this Comrade that my wish was that if the Councillor was arrested I wish that he would be taken to the police because I did not want him to be killed. That’s when I knew that he had been killed. They rand after him but I discovered how he was killed when I got home. I will not say who arrested him or affected a citizen’s arrest on the Councillor. He was handed over to the Comrades and they took him back to the place where the march started. There was a strong police presence at that time. They started assaulting the Councillor and as they were assaulting him, one policeman intervened when they wanted to burn the dead body of the Councillor. I am not able to release or give the full details as to how he died to you because I was not present at that particular moment. The police who were there trying to intervene as well as other people will be able to furnish more information with regard to the Councillor’s death.
DR ALLY: This Councillor, did he have a family as well ?
MRS MAGQAGQA: The first time I met him he was alone. I’ve never met his family but I do think he does have a family but I cannot say for certain whether he was married or not.
DR ALLY: So you don’t know what kind of relationship there was between the community and the family of this Councillor after this incident ?
MR MAGQAGQA: I wouldn’t know much about that but what I knew was about him personally and that on a particular Friday, that was the Friday before the march, I went to ask the members of the organization how the Councillors were responding to they imminent boycott. I heard that they had approached him and he was quite understanding to the plight of the people and he was able and willing to help the members of the community. I don’t know what turned him against the community thereafter because he had quite a wonderful relationship with the members of the community. I don’t know where the conflict started and how.
DR ALLY: Since this incident, has there been any contact of relationship between your family and the family of the Councillor ?
MRS MAGQAGQA: As I’ve already said, my mother is quite a homely person. She always remains indoors at home but according to my own observation, the relationships never improved and they were owing each other money. I discovered that later when I was told by me sister-in-law that there was somebody who was owed money and they said this person, my brother killed that woman’s brother and as a result she wouldn’t be able to recover the money. Apparently I was told that that lady was the sister of the deceased Councillor. What I know is that my brother never killed anyone. I personally think that these statements, conflict and at times I get these funny remarks so I think the relationships are not really good.
DR ALLY: You may have seen on the programme of witnesses who are going to ge appearing later to-day, there will be a family member of the Councillor who was killed coming to testify before the Commission, to speak about their understanding of what happened. If the family members of the Councillor who was killed are willing, how would you feel if the Truth Commission tries to facilitate some meeting so that there can be some discussion ? If the other family was willing, how would you feel about such a meeting ?
MR MAGQAGQA: What I can say is, even though it’s difficult for me to say as to how I would react because I don’t know whether the other party is willing to meet us but from my own side I believe that it is a wonderful idea for us to get together and speak. We don’t have any aim to kill anyone or to spill any blood, so I believe if we meet and explain to each other what our objectives were at that time of leading the march and they can also tell us their own viewpoint with regard to the march that took place that day. Maybe we can reach an understanding between the two families.
MR MAGQAGQA: Thank you very much for that honest answer. As I said, we will be hearing from the sister and we will also be hearing from other people who were involved in that bucket protest which was very tragic and claimed a number of lives. It’s also tragic that the circumstances at the time should have turned people against each other. These were people who lived in one community, who were part of a community, who knew each other as the previous witness said. He and the Councillor who was killed were actually friends. They played together in a soccer team and it’s particularly tragic that a political system which is imposed on people, where people don’t actually have the choice of themselves, democratically voting people onto Councils but have a Councillor imposed upon them, that, that causes this division within the community. It causes these deep antagonisms, hatred even and in the end leads to this kind of tragic event. We hope that maybe at the end of these hearings when we’ve had a chance to hear the testimony of the family of the Councillor, that maybe a better understanding can be reached. Maybe, as you have said, the families can actually get together and try and understand the different viewpoints they had at the time and see if there can be some resolving of these long standing tensions and these divisions which caused all of this bitterness. Thank you very much and from our side as the Commission, if we can assist in any way to facilitate this process then we would certainly want to do that but only if it is a request from all the families. We don’t want to impose anything on anybody. It’s for the families to decide if it’s something they want to do. Just for the record, can you just give us your name.
MR MAGQAGQA: William Vuma Ntetwa Magqagqa.
DR ALLY: Thank you very much William and thank you very much to your mother as well.
