Human Rights Violation Hearings

P DU TOIT: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr du Toit. Ms Mary Burton.

MS BURTON: Thank you Chairperson, good morning again Mr du Toit.

MR DU TOIT: Good morning.

MS BURTON: You, I understand, are retired now, but in the eighties you were a warrant officer in the Police Force is that correct.

MR DU TOIT: That is correct.

MS BURTON: And you were attached to the Security Unit, is that correct?

MR DU TOIT: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mary, may I just interrupt just for a moment, I just want to find out from Mr Brand, are all the witnesses presenting - reading their testimonies?

MR BRAND: Chairperson we don't have a prepared statement for the witness due to the fact that the type of the inquiry at the moment and his own specific incident that there won't be - and I think you are welcome to start with the questioning regarding the specific issues.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, thanks Mary Burton.

MS BURTON: Thank you.

MR BRAND: May I perhaps just place on record that Advocate Hiemstra is appearing for the witness with me, I am not sure whether his name was mentioned.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Hiemstra do you want to place yourself on the record?

ADV HIEMSTRA: Thank you Chairperson. My name is R C Hiemstra and I appear for the witness Mr du Toit, instructed by De Klerk & Van Gend.

MR BRAND: May I also at this stage just tender the apologies of myself and the various witnesses for being late. We had transport problems in getting here.

CHAIRPERSON: No lunch for you.

MS BURTON: Just then to go back to your position at the times that we are talking about. You came to Cape Town in or about 1980, is that right?

MR DU TOIT: That is correct.

MS BURTON: But perhaps to take us more closely in the last few days we've been talking very specifically about 1985 and 1986 and at that time could you tell us your position and the work you were doing?

MR DU TOIT: I was attached to the informal sectors of Cape Town where I did monitoring work during cleaning-up operations performed by certain line functionaries in residential areas which were seen as illegal at that stage and they were demolished, I did monitoring functions there. And when there were certain incidents I reported on those incidents and I also liaised as widely as possible with the communities to try and obtain information to be able to notify authorities of possible tensions and flashpoints. It was my task to also identify problems in certain communities which could possibly lead to violence. That is more-or-less broadly speaking what my tasks were.

MS BURTON: So your daily work really brought you into close contact with the communities with Crossroads and the surrounding areas?

MR DU TOIT: That is correct, yes.

MS BURTON: And then the information that you gleaned from those contacts, how did you feed that back into the police structures?

MR DU TOIT: The routine was that each morning at seven o'clock on weekdays I would prepare a telex of what had happened on the previous day, all in the incidents in the past 24 hours, if any - yes incidents which had taken place. Now that telex, all other information would then be submitted to my desk officer, my immediate superior officer in my office, in other words my first officer. I then submitted it to him, he would read it and if there were questions arising from that he would ask me those questions, I would supply the information, then I would take the telex to the divisional commanding officer of the Security Branch in that same building and I would submit it to him as well. He would also study this information and would ask some questions for clarification, he would sign it and then I took it to the telex operators for distribution. Was that the question?

MS BURTON: Thank you. Can you tell us who those two respective officers were at the time, the head of your section and the divisional head?

MR DU TOIT: In 1985 and '86, I am actually not quite sure who was the head in 1985, Brigadier Strydom was the overall divisional commanding officer in 1986. I may be wrong but I think I am correct in that. I don't think I am misleading you there.

MS BURTON: Now the telex then went where after it had been seen by the local and divisional people?

MR DU TOIT: The telex was addressed to the Commissioner, South African Police Pretoria and where there had been violence or possible violence and police involvement in these matters those telexes were also addressed to the local divisional commissioner of police in Cape Town.

MS BURTON: So in a sense you were the eyes of ears of very senior people in the State, on the ground at that time?

MR DU TOIT: Yes that is correct.

MS BURTON: And are you aware of the fact that at that time the Joint Security Management System was in place and that both at national and at regional level the various arms of the security forces came together to plan strategically around major issues of security?

MR DU TOIT: Yes Chairperson. I am aware that there was a phase in that time when this happened. I am not quite sure when I became involved in the system, whether this was in 1985 or '86. My suspicion is that it took place in the second half or towards the end of '86 when I became involved in the mini-structures.

MS BURTON: Now you have told us about the written reports which you presented, but were you also asked to attend meetings of any of the levels of the Joint Management Centres to report on what you had learned?

MR DU TOIT: Do you mean in the broader structures of the local JMCs?

MS BURTON: Yes.

MR DU TOIT: Yes, I was sometimes coopted to - well I can't remember when it happened and how it happened but sometimes on occasion I was coopted to attend meetings of the structures to submit a situation report covering the circumstances at the time.

MS BURTON: Would you have been an actual regular member of the Joint Information Committee?

MR DU TOIT: No, no this was only occasionally. It wasn't always, but as I can recall now it happened when there was a lot of tension building up in an area, when something was on hand then I would be coopted if the events fell within sphere.

MS BURTON: And your role at those meetings, you told us that it was to give information about what you had learned, did you also take part in the planning of responses to whatever situation developed?

MR DU TOIT: No, no I never took part in the planning. I was never involved in any planning. I was a warrant officer and I was never involved in the planning.

MS BURTON: Now those meetings were meetings that happened at the Thomas Boydell buildings in town, is that right?

MR DU TOIT: Yes. The meetings which I attended were in the Thomas Boydell building and also at a Pinelands Operational Centre.

MS BURTON: Thank you. Now you've given us a picture where you were in contact with the communities and you were feeding in that information to the people who were making the decisions, what information did you get back from them? What instructions, requests for particular work that you should do?

MR DU TOIT: The questions or complaints which I received dealt mainly with social issues and as an example of this I could mention the following. People would for instance say we don't have a tap, or we have only one tap for three groups of people, or we have too few premises or places to live, we are actually overcrowded or similar things, social problems, welfare issues, those were the most important issues, and I took those issues up immediately.

MS BURTON: So those were, to some extent, problems that were solved then by the development board, so that you had people like Mr Bezuidenhout, Mr Schelhase, attending to things that could become a flashpoint for a problem?

MR DU TOIT: That is correct.

MS BURTON: That helps us to understand why those structures were also involved in the planning strategies. But then there were other, at that time, more serious issues, issues for example of weapons being found in the area or suspicions that weapons might be in the area, that military training was taking place, was that the sort of thing that you reported as well?

MR DU TOIT: Yes. My area was actually squatters. If I would pick up any rumour or obtain any information regarding firearms in that context I would feed that information through in the normal way by means of a telex to the Commissioner of Police in Pretoria and also in the other normal ways I would report that. But it was mainly the social issues where I received lots of complaints and questions about.

MS BURTON: So just to go back a little bit, when you reported to these meetings what were the different structures that were present when you reported either at the Thomas Boydell building meetings or the Pinelands meetings?

MR DU TOIT: Oh could I please just - could you repeat your question please, I am not entirely sure what your question is.

MS BURTON: What structures or what individuals were represented at those meetings of the Joint Information Committee or the Joint Management Centre when you went to report to them?

MR DU TOIT: The report which I did in the JMC is only regarding the social issues and I don't think - it's not impossible but as far as I can recall these reports never dealt, the reports to the JMC never dealt with for instance violence, weapons etc. At the JMC what we dealt with there, as far as I can recall, were these social problems that I have mentioned. I think that answers your question.

MS BURTON: What I was asking was who you were reporting to, so that we know for example that you would be reporting directly to the Security Police and the Police, but what other structures were receiving those reports?

MR DU TOIT: Are you talking about the squatter issue and the social problems specifically? I apologise for the fact that I can't understand your question, I just want to be very clear about this. The people present there were the certain groupings, it was certain State departments, South African Police and the Defence Force. There were various different State line functionaries.

MS BURTON: Can you be a bit more specific when you say "State line functionaries", it may not have been the Afrikaans word you used?

MR DU TOIT: Yes, what I mean is the following. The Department of Education and Training for instance when it dealt with school issues, where there were certain problems at schools, or the Department of Constitutional Development they were also sometimes represented, or officials from that department. The Development Board, local management and boards. I hope that answers your question.

MS BURTON: And at the meetings in Pinelands?

MR DU TOIT: I am not certain whether I attended any JMC meetings in Pinelands, it may be that they were JMC meetings, but normally most of the JMC meetings - I apologise it's a long time ago, I don't have amnesia about this but I really - I am struggling to remember because it was so long ago. I think I might have attended JMC meetings in Pinelands and I would have reported in the same format.

MS BURTON: Then just to go back to the process of gathering information, how did you go about that? You were present yourself in the area, did you use sources to give you information?

MR DU TOIT: My way of working was mainly to speak to people, to make friends with them. I would ask them how they were and whether they had any problems. I told them that I was a policeman but that I would help them wherever I could, so I would simply ask, do you have any problems and in that way I would make friends and win their trust.

MS BURTON: But I understand that there came a time when at least some parts of the areas in Crossroads and KTC became unsafe for you to go into?

MR DU TOIT: Yes that is correct. Conditions deteriorated after a while, especially after 1985 and 1986, things became more and more difficult. It became more and more difficult to function properly.

MS BURTON: So how did you manage then to find the information that you needed to report to your superior officers?

MR DU TOIT: I still went out in the peaceful times, during times of calm, but I must tell you my - I couldn't do the same amount of work, I must tell you that, but whenever I could I still went out and did my best to obtain the necessary information. I also, for instance, had contact with people in the surrounding areas. I would meet up with a familiar face then I would stop and chat and find out what the latest information was. But it was difficult, in 1985 and 1986 it actually was increasingly difficult.

MS BURTON: Did you use people who were paid to give you information?

MR DU TOIT: No, no I didn't make use of paid informers, these were only occasional sources, people who would give you information about a particular trend or aspect of the problem, so no I didn't have any paid and appointed informers.

MS BURTON: We have heard from other officers in the police that paid informers were used, are you saying that you never used anybody and paid them for information?

MR DU TOIT: I can't say that I never paid an informer. An occasional informer is compensated for the information when he gives you that information, that is the way I paid them.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mary, so you did use informers?

MR DU TOIT: Yes, yes on occasions, these were occasional informers.

MS BURTON: Now in your years of making contact with the community you would have interacted with the various community leaders, can you tell us some of the people that you worked with?

MR DU TOIT: Yes. It was my task, or I made it my business to have contact with all community leaders, to know them, to get to know them. There was a Mr Ngqobongwana from Crossroads, he was the first one that I met. There was a Mr Yamile, Mr Toyise, Mr Sepika, Mr Hosa, Mr Qwelisa, Mr Jerry Tutu, those are more-or-less the leaders that I can recall at the moment.

MS BURTON: Now those are certainly names that we have heard in the last few days and that were very prominent in those years. You have mentioned in an affidavit that you knew Mr Ngqobongwana well and were often in contact with him, did you have a good relationship with him?

MR DU TOIT: Yes Chairperson, as far as I am concerned I had a good relationship with him. How could I put this now, I don't know whether the feeling was mutual, whether his feelings were very sincere towards me but my feelings towards him were sincere. I am not quite so sure whether the feeling was mutual.

MS BURTON: And would you say you had a closer relationship with him than with some of the other leaders that you've mentioned?

MR DU TOIT: I don't think I had a closer relationship with him. I had contact with all of them routinely. Now Ngxobongwana was also absent for long periods of time, during 1985 especially, so I wouldn't say I had a close relationship with him in that time.

From the time that Crossroads was upgraded, from that point onwards, I think I had a better understanding with him. I think in the first years he was more reserved, as I said just now, I don't think he was as sincere in his relationship with me as I was towards him.

MS BURTON: Now Mr Ngxobongwana was arrested on the 22nd of April 1985, could you describe the circumstances of that arrest?

MR DU TOIT: If I remember correctly Mr Ngxobongwana, now I can't remember the exact date, but he was arrested, this was at the beginning of 1985 in terms of security legislation and after four months, which takes us to April as you have just mentioned, after four months he was re-arrested on a criminal charge, I think it related to intimidation, and he was then in custody for a considerable time.

MS BURTON: Now there was a collection of, I think it was bail money, for Mr Ngxobongwana, why did the collection of money lead to conflict within the Committee?

MR DU TOIT: Yes, this was in New Crossroads, the people from Old Crossroads were re-settled in New Crossroads, or at least some of these people and they had appointed a community committee affiliated to Old Crossroads' executive committee. In other words as I understand it they were subjected to the Committee in Old Crossroads. Now tension arose due to the fact that these people had collected money for bail, and there was something else for which they had collected money but I can't recall exactly what it was, so it was an issue of community involvement and I think the United Democratic Front was very much to the fore in that. Some people then said no, we mustn't give money for bail and others said yes we should, and this led to division and conflict between the people. And the UDF people apparently didn't want to contribute to the bail collection.

That is how I understood it, but - that was the cause of the problem, it was the issue of the bail money which led to strife in Crossroads.

MS BURTON: Now it was part of your job to try and understand all of that, and to understand the dynamics between the different sections in the area is that right?

MR DU TOIT: Yes that's correct.

MS BURTON: So these disputes about the money would have been part of the reports that you were making on a regular basis?

MR DU TOIT: That is correct, yes. I reported everything.

MS BURTON: And I believe that when Mr Ngxobongwana was acquitted he spoke at a function during which he was angry with the United Womens Organisation and the UDF because they hadn't supported him, now were you present at that function?

MR DU TOIT: No, no I wasn't present at the function. This was information which we got from the community to the effect that Mr Ngxobongwana had expressed his anger at this function.

MS BURTON: So you were becoming increasingly aware that the divisions in the community were growing?

MR DU TOIT: Correct.

MS BURTON: While Mr Ngxobongwana was in prison did you see him there?

MR DU TOIT: No, no I never saw him in prison.

MS BURTON: You had mentioned earlier that Mr Ngxobongwana was often out of Cape Town, away from Cape Town, at one stage there was a delegation that went to visit him in the Ciskei, were you part of that group?

MR DU TOIT: Could you perhaps be a bit more specific, I am not sure what you mean, the delegation or group, I don't understand.

MS BURTON: Mr Ndima told us that he had gone to see Mr Ngxobongwana in the Ciskei on an occasion and I am asking you if you went with him.

MR DU TOIT: No most definitely not.

MS BURTON: Let us move on then to the days of some of the worst fighting in the area, the 9th, 10th and 11th of June, you remember that that was the time of major conflict in the area?

MR DU TOIT: Yes I do recall that.

MS BURTON: Now in the days preceding that time did you submit reports warning that such an attack might happen?

MR DU TOIT: That is correct.

MS BURTON: And what would you say were the reasons for the attacks that took place?

MR DU TOIT: According to the residents in the community and also taking into consideration the whole history of the area the reason was that during 1985 the government had announced that Crossroads would not be upgraded anymore, or that it would be upgraded and developed into a residential area. That meant that there was a great influx of people from the - residents from the Transkei, Ciskei to Crossroads. Crossroads was over-populated, it was crowded, people in both Mr Ngxobongwana and Mr Yamile's group, they attached themselves to these satellite groups.

During the announcement that Crossroads would not be done away with, and that it in fact would be upgraded there was an excitement which took hold amongst the people and this related to who would be included in the upgrading process. In other words Mr Yamile, who was a leader of quite a large group and Mr Ngxobongwana was also a leader on the other side had a large group of followers, conflict arose between those two groups as to who should be included in the upgrading. Ngxobongwana's followers believed that it should be them because they believed it was their area, and Mr Yamile on the other hand I believe he also felt that he had the right to be included in the upgrading, and that led to tension between the two groups.

Then of course the second situation or reason was a political one. Violence was an issue in those days and there had been attacks in Crossroads launched from outside. I hope I have answered the question now.

MS BURTON: Yes thank you. I think you have given us your views about the background reasons for the conflict, but by this time things were very acute in the area and there had been already deaths and considerable violence.

Just to go back a little bit, a meeting held in the Athlone Police Station, as early as the 24th of April, which brought together some of the people who had become known as the Witdoeke leader and members of the police, were you part of that meeting? Did you have any part in calling that meeting together?

MR DU TOIT: I can't remember the date, the date which you've just mentioned in April. I was, however, involved in a meeting at the Athlone district commissioner at which a group of, I think, seven people, well I made the appointment for them to come and speak to the Police,

MS BURTON: And what was the object of that meeting?

MR DU TOIT: The object of that meeting was that those people wanted to ask for Police protection for the residents and that's why I arranged for the meeting to take place. They wanted to express their dissatisfaction about the security situation in Crossroads and the vicinity, and they wanted to be protected. For that reason I wanted the matter to be discussed as soon as possible and at a high level. I wanted the people themselves to come and talk about it.

MS BURTON: We've heard a great deal about the existence of firearms, of weapons, in a number of these communities and it has been said to us that some of the leaders were asking the Police to give them weapons in order to be able to use them, are you aware of this?

MR DU TOIT: At that meeting in Athlone at which the group of approximately seven people came to speak they specifically asked the Police to give them weapons.

MS BURTON: And are you aware of what the reply was?

MR DU TOIT: The answer was a most definite "no", we can't give you any weapons. There were other agreements made but the people were, to some extent, pacified and they were told that the Police would address their problems and would strengthen their safety measures.

MS BURTON: Can you tell us who was present at that meeting?

MR DU TOIT: The Chairperson of the meeting was the district commandant of those years, it was a Colonel Schreuder, I think, Brigadier Strydom was there as well and there were two or three other senior officers, I can't recall who exactly they were. I think they were senior officers in the Athlone district.

MS BURTON: And anybody from outside of Cape Town?

MR DU TOIT: I can't give you an affirmative answer, I don't think so, I don't recall any strangers being present. It's possible but I can't recall it. Unfortunately I never saw the list of those present, but I don't think so.

MS BURTON: We have been told that there were police representatives from Pretoria there but you may not know that. And from the community, the people who were represented there?

MR DU TOIT: I can't remember, there were six or seven people. Some of these were from the older guard, very influential in the area, but I can't recall the exact names because I didn't actually take them to the meeting, so I can't really remember, I can't give you the names.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm a little surprised Mr du Toit, you described yourself as someone who was into the community, who understood the needs of the community, who spoke with everyone you know ...(intervention)

MR DU TOIT: Ja, ja ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'm surprised you can't remember who was at that meeting? That meeting that you arranged yourself. Is there any way that we can help you remember those people?

MR DU TOIT: I organised and arranged the meeting to take place in a house. There were some people in the house who called me, but I'm not too sure about these people. There was one man by the name of Magloi(?) he called me to his house, he was a shopkeeper and he said that there were a group of people who wanted to talk to the Police. And then a couple of women and also some men were there, they were sitting there but I really can't recall who they were.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes they would be sitting in a meeting, but surely you knew the people in the area? You yourself testified that you were very familiar with the area, you were very familiar with many of the leaders, surely you know who was in that meeting from the community?

MR DU TOIT: Ja, ja ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Please tell us who was in that meeting?

MR DU TOIT: I honestly can't tell you. You must remember that this took place ten or eleven years ago, so I can't remember. I do know that Mr Magloi called me and that I then saw a couple of people sitting down there. They were middle-age or even elderly people, they weren't young people. But I can't remember who they were.

I immediately made the appointment and I think I went back and told Mr Magloi when the meeting took place and where. And they then went off to the meeting on their own. I honestly can't remember who these people were.

CHAIRPERSON: I find it difficult, even though you say you honestly can't remember, find it very difficult for someone who was milling among the community not to remember who the people in the community that you called to a meeting were. It's just unthinkable. How can you not remember? Are you trying to mislead us into believing that you don't remember, or do you honestly don't remember, what is the position?

MR DU TOIT: I am most definitely not trying to mislead you. I can't remember who these people were. I honestly can't remember who this group were.

MS BURTON: Perhaps if we ask you to confirm one or two of the names we have received by other information, would you know for example whether Mr Prince Ngobinqwa was at the meeting and Mr Sam Ndima?

MR DU TOIT: Sam Ndima I knew him, he was an elderly man but I can't remember whether he was there at that meeting. Mr Ngobinqwa I did not know him at that time, I did not know him personally so I can't place him. I can't remember whether Towi, as we called him, was present at that meeting. I don't think he came to Mr Magloi's house when those few people were gathered there who wanted to talk to the Police. I don't think he was with those people. I can't remember that Sam Ndima was in Athlone at that stage. If I provided transport I would remember better.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, excuse me Mary, you stated that the meeting was called by residents who wanted protection, which residents were these?

MR DU TOIT: I've referred to the people who lived there, the people whom I addressed at Mr Magloi's house, is that what you are referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I am asking you, when the meeting was called, it was called, you were responding to a request by residents for protection, now I'd like you to tell us which residents are you talking about, from which community?

MR DU TOIT: They came from Crossroads. Those people talked on behalf of the people from Crossroads.

CHAIRPERSON: You spoke earlier on of sides, you said Mr Yamile had his group, Mr Ngxobongwana had his community, now which of these communities was the community for which you were holding the meeting?

MR DU TOIT: I don't think it was from the splinter group, I think it was the old original group, from the older people, from the original group, they wanted to have that meeting. I may make a mistake but this is how I recall that. It was only the original people who called the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell us, just in terms of the sides, because that's the way you yourself have separated the groups, into Yamile's group with the satellite and Ngxobongwana's group with the satellites, from those sides which one was the group, where did the group that you met with come from? From which side did they come from? Can you define them in terms of those two sides which you yourself have defined?

MR DU TOIT: I think it was from the Ngxobongwana group, those were the people who came there.

CHAIRPERSON: The meeting in Athlone, the people you met in Athlone were from the Ngxobongwana group?

MR DU TOIT: Yes ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR DU TOIT: I repeat I can't remember exactly who were there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mary Burton.

MS BURTON: Thank you Chairperson. Just to go back then to that meeting and we've heard the request was put to the meeting for weapons to be supplied and that the answer was that no weapons could be supplied by the Police, but we have been told that Brigadier Strydom suggested that perhaps there were other mechanisms through which weapons could be obtained privately. And I wonder whether you can tell us of any specific way or any specific structure through which the people who were referred to as Witdoeke could obtain weapons?

MR DU TOIT: I can't remember what Brigadier Strydom told these people, but the structures were the only structures I was acquainted with. It does not matter to which colour or nationality he was, if he was a South African citizen the only structure by which he could legally apply for a fire weapon, there's only one structure, and that was to apply for a firearm licence.

MS BURTON: Now in your information gathering you must have become aware of the fact that there were weapons, as you say if they were obtained illegally they were illegally owned weapons available in the area?

MR DU TOIT: Yes definitely, a person could have had a licensed weapon but the weapons used in that attack were illegal weapons.

MS BURTON: And did you warn in your reports beforehand that illegal weapons were to your knowledge available in the area?

MR DU TOIT: Yes, definitely so, I regularly reported back that illegal firearms were used in that area in attacks.

MS BURTON: And did you have any idea of where those weapons might have come from?

MR DU TOIT: No Madam Chair, it's unknown to me where those weapons had come from. You will realise that most weapons which were illegal were found when their houses were robbed and they were looted and handgrenades and those type of weapons came from somewhere else, but it was not known to me from where they had come.

MS BURTON: Now you said, I think it was in an interview with members of our investigation unit, that it was not your primary task to trace terrorists, I think those were your words, but surely if you heard about people who could be described as terrorists in the area or places where weapons were being hidden it was your task to identify those and to report on that?

MR DU TOIT: Definitely, yes Madam Chair.

MS BURTON: And did you in your anticipation of, your knowledge of the presence of weapons and the presence of very serious conflict in the area, did you warn the authorities that such a serious attack was imminent and that steps should be taken to prevent it?

MR DU TOIT: Yes definitely, repeatedly and in every message I told the people that the danger was increasing and a conflict might develop.

MS BURTON: And did you feel that steps were taken that could have prevented the outbreak of such serious conflict?

MR DU TOIT: I got the feeling that the people trusted me and I had confidence that the people would take the necessary steps and that they would take this whole situation very seriously.

MS BURTON: By the people now do you mean the community?

MR DU TOIT: No I refer to the Police, that the Police would react ...(intervention)

MS BURTON: That they would believe the information you gave them and they would take serious steps to prevent conflict?

MR DU TOIT: Beslis - hulle sal beslis verstaan die boedskap dat gevaar dryg en hulle opskerping doen in daardie verband.(not translated)

MS BURTON: In this last day or two we have been hearing testimony from people who have spoken time and again of casspirs in the area, of the might of the Police force, very visible but yet not taking action to keep people apart to prevent conflict breaking out, are you aware of that, certainly that very strong view held by observers and people in the community?

MR DU TOIT: The casspirs and the Police vehicles patrolled the area. It is difficult for me to answer that question of whether the Police did not act. It is difficult for me, I was not present there during specific incidents, so it's difficult for me to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ramashala wants to ask a question Mary, Dr Ramashala.

DR RAMASHALA: Mr du Toit in Mr Knipe's testimony yesterday he stated that, and I quote, "you carried a torch for the vigilante leaders in Crossroads", and then he later said that while he was at the unit you never supplied him with any information which was of any value. Why would Mr Knipe have had such an opinion of you? And wouldn't this suggest to you that you were not helpful in his investigation where it dealt with the Witdoeke?

MR DU TOIT: Madam Chair regarding Mr Knipe I do not have much to say. I did cooperate with the detective branch, not with him specifically but with his other colleagues. I had a close relationship with his other colleagues and I gave my full cooperation at all times. Regarding any investigation, not specifically referring to Mr Knipe specifically because he was involved in other units, but I did cooperate closely with the detective branch.

And what was your second question, could you repeat that please?

DR RAMASHALA: Can you give us the name of the person with whom you cooperated in the detective branch?

MR DU TOIT: I cooperated with all the members of the detective branch in Guguletu, I knew all the members. It's difficult for me to make a distinction between those people. I had contact with all the people.

DR RAMASHALA: So you had contact with all the people except Mr Knipe?

MR DU TOIT: Yes Mr Knipe was involved in other units. The Police is divided into various sections and groups and it is not on purpose that I did not have personal contact with Mr Knipe.

MS BURTON: Thank you Chairperson. I'd like to go back again to the question of possible prevention. I have the sense that you were very close to the ground, you understood what was happening in the community. We have the feeling that perhaps you were closer to one grouping than another, as has been said the image was used that you "carried a torch" for Mr Ngxobongwana and the people who were referred to as Witdoeke. But in any case you knew this area, you knew the people who were involved and you were giving warnings to the Joint Security system as a whole, right up to the very national levels about what was happening and what could happen, surely it was terrible for you to watch this conflict break out in spite of the warnings that you were repeatedly giving?

MR DU TOIT: What is your question exactly?

MS BURTON: My question is how did you feel about the preventive action which you had hoped would take place and what steps were taken on the basis of your advice?

MR DU TOIT: I felt that the Police were deployed, that the had the necessary information and that they could also personally observe the situation. It was a period of violence and the Police functioned at its top potential.

I did not know what the Police could have done otherwise.

MS BURTON: I think it was in one of the interviews with our investigation unit you used the phrase "cleaning up operations", could you elaborate on what you meant by "cleaning up operations"?

MR DU TOIT: No I don't think I ever used that term, it was a misunderstanding.

MR BRAND: Chairperson if we could just have an indication of where to find the reference, if we might just get a reference to the document we might perhaps be able to answer the question.

MS BURTON: If I may I will just ask the investigation unit if they can look it up so that I don't waste our time while we do that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We've just been told by the investigators that it is part of his testimony given.

MR BRAND: Yes I accept that it is ...(intervention)

MS BURTON: The page ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Oh the reference.

MS BURTON: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Which testimony was that ...(intervention)

MS BURTON: We will go on for the moment and see how it ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Thanks.

MS BURTON: I am still just trying to press for a feeling about what steps you think could have been taken to prevent the levels of conflict that happened. Did you for example report to Mr Odendaal about your anxiety about the levels of conflict?

MR DU TOIT: Yes, Major Odendaal and myself often talked about this matter. We were worried about this matter, we were worried about the situation, there was correspondence and faxes, telefaxes in this regard and personally we also talked about this situation. I was convinced that he was doing everything possible to prevent the conflict. I could not think of any other steps which he could have taken. It's very difficult for me to explain any further.

MS BURTON: It just seems to us, I think, after all we've heard that with all the might of the security services that it was impossible to prevent such a serious conflict breaking out between two groups of people who had weapons but who were certainly armed in a way that would have prevented them from resisting action taken by the Police. Anyway I think I won't pursue that any further.

I'd like to just go back once again to the gathering of information and to ask you whether you were aware of the presence of members of Umkhonto weSizwe in the area, in any of the camps prior to the major attack on the 9th, 10th and 11th of June?

MR DU TOIT: I heard rumours that members of Umkhonto weSizwe were present in the area but I could never affirm that, it was only rumours.

MS BURTON: Not part of any formal reports that were given to you?

MR DU TOIT: No, never.

MS BURTON: So it was unconfirmed as far as you were concerned?

MR DU TOIT: That is correct, yes.

MS BURTON: Chairperson I have no further questions at the moment.

CHAIRPERSON: Members of the panel, Mr Dumisa Ntsebeza.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Chair. Did you continue to function as a gatherer of information and as a person who reported on the information you have gathered after the incidents of the 9th, the 10th and the 11th of June 1986?

MR DU TOIT: Yes I provided a full report on these events.

MR NTSEBEZA: And who did you provide those reports to?

MR DU TOIT: Those reports were provided in the usual way. It was to Pretoria, the Commissioner of the South African Police and the Divisional Commissioner in Cape Town.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did you supply any reports to the Murder and Robbery Squad?

MR DU TOIT: No that was not the routine we followed, the Divisional Commissioner had to distribute these reports to the various branches of the Police.

MR NTSEBEZA: And you expect that those reports would have come to those people who were doing investigations as to the crimes that could have been committed in those two days?

MR DU TOIT: Yes it was investigated.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes, but the question I am asking is, is it your evidence that your report, through the normal channels that you reported to, would have been communicated to those who investigated whatever crimes were committed in the period of the three days we were talking about?

MR DU TOIT: I don't have concrete evidence but I just believed that it would have been done.

MR NTSEBEZA: You would be surprised if it didn't form part of the report to Murder and Robbery for example, not so?

MR DU TOIT: No, the Murder and Robbery Unit I think would have been kept up-to-date by the divisional commissioner would have been kept up-to-date with the information. I don't know the exact channels which were used.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see. What were your sources for the report that you compiled on the incidents of the 9th, 10th and 11th?

MR DU TOIT: The sources I used for my report on the 9th and 10th, this big violence, I got from the community themselves, from New Crossroads, from Crossroads and from information from the inhabitants, the anxiety they suffered and also the motivation from the previous violence and the circumstances which led to that violence. Those were my sources.

MR NTSEBEZA: I would like us to be more specific than that Mr du Toit. You have talked of two factions, that is in terms of your own evidence, did you gather information from the so-called Ngxobongwana faction for instance, as to what was happening and what were the causes and why it happened?

MR DU TOIT: Yes, I obtained information from all places even from New Crossroads I obtained information from various sources. I obtained information from everywhere.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes we'll get to those in time. I am just asking specifically did you gather information from the Ngxobongwana faction from specific individuals from there? I am just talking about the Ngxobongwana faction now.

MR DU TOIT: Yes I obtained information from them.

MR NTSEBEZA: And they told you what they perceived to have been the causes of the violence and what took place as a consequence. In other words the events as they evolved. They told you I will take it, that on the 9th this is what happened, on the 10th this is what happened, on the 11th this is what happened, did you get that information from them?

MR DU TOIT: No Chairperson, that information, the specific dates and the specific incidents were obtained from the operational rooms, the exact dates of these incidents.

MR NTSEBEZA: I am getting lost with respect. Let me start again. Did you, as an information gatherer of the nature that you have described yourself, obtain any information from the Witdoeke, from the so-called Ngxobongwana faction, about what they did on the 9th, on the 10th and on the 11th? Did you contact anybody from that faction to say look, tell me, what did you do on these days?

MR DU TOIT: Yes that is correct. Some of the Ngxobongwana group told me that their people had acted and they told me what had happened.

MR NTSEBEZA: And you compiled a detailed report on the basis of what they said they did on those three days, is that correct?

MR DU TOIT: Yes, what they said and also other people ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: I am just talking about this faction, don't tell me about others, we'll come there. Did you compile a report about what the Ngxobongwana faction told you they did?

MR DU TOIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR NTSEBEZA: And is that a report that you submitted to the Commissioner of Police and the Divisional Commissioner in the usual manner?

MR DU TOIT: That is so.

MR NTSEBEZA: In order for us to be sure that you are talking about the same group of people the Ngxobongwana faction is what became known as the so-called Witdoeke do you agree?

MR DU TOIT: That is right.

MR NTSEBEZA: And the Ngxobongwana group was also sometimes referred to as the Vaders, did you know that?

MR DU TOIT: No, I know these people well but I've never heard about the Fathers. This is a term I do not know. I know about the old people they referred to but not the Fathers.

MR NTSEBEZA: Are you telling me that in your entire employment history you are hearing it for the first time from me that the Witdoeke were also referred to as Die Vaders, is that your evidence?

MR DU TOIT: Yes, yes. This term "Fathers" I have never heard before, they never mentioned this word.

MR NTSEBEZA: I am not asking whether they mentioned the word, I am asking you if you are saying to me under oath it is the first time today that you hear that the Witdoeke and the people generally associated with the Ngxobongwana faction were referred to as The Fathers, is that your evidence under oath? You have never heard them referred to in that fashion before, is that your evidence?

MR DU TOIT: Yes, I've never heard this word Fathers before as referring to the Witdoeke. It might have been in Xhosa but Fathers or Vaders I am not acquainted with that term.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see. Now did you also gather information about the events on that day from the other faction, the Yamile faction, the so-called Comrades faction about what they did on those three days?

MR DU TOIT: Yes I did find out. Outside Crossroads I obtained some information and I found it from other groups ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: No I don't understand what you are saying, I don't understand what you are saying. I am putting a specific and direct question to you, did you contact the other faction, the Yamile faction? Did you contact Yamile and say just tell me what happened on these three days, I am compiling a report as part of my duties and I want to hear from you what happened, did you do that?

MR DU TOIT: No, I did not specifically to Yamile and his people because there was too much unrest.

MR NTSEBEZA: I would have thought that there was too much unrest also but you were able to contact the Witdoeke people, can you tell me what was the difference, that you are finding it easy to deal with the Witdoeke and gather information as to the details of what happens and you are not able to do the same thing about the Yamile group?

MR DU TOIT: Crossroads itself after that conflict was more peaceful and then I found some of those people at the administration council building and at Crossroads, not even in the area itself, Witdoeke gave me that information at the administration building.

MR NTSEBEZA: So is it so that your report was based on the one-sided version of the Witdoeke?

MR DU TOIT: No Mr Chairman it was not a one-sided report from the Witdoeke's point of view. It was a report - it was an all-encompassing report not only from the Witdoeke's point of view.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did your report contain the accounts of eye witnesses from the clergy who were there, one of whom was arrested by the Police during the course of the unrest there? Did your report contain their versions? John Freeth for instance who gave testimony here yesterday.

MR DU TOIT: No, no, no, no Mr Chairman I did not get information from them.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did you know that he had actually in fact been at the scene endeavouring to assist in keeping calm there, and that in fact he was arrested by the Police, taken to Athlone and later released?

MR DU TOIT: No Mr Chairman I do not know the Reverend. I do not know about this incident, I was not there on the scene and I was not in the area during the unrest.

MR NTSEBEZA: You must have been a hopelessly inefficient information gatherer Mr du Toit. It's either you are mendacious and I would not like to make that observation or you must have been totally incompetent as an information gatherer, what is your view? I am putting it to you that you can only have been totally inefficient not to have known that Mr John Freeth in that area was gathering information and actually was arrested, or you are endeavouring to mislead us. What is your view?

MR DU TOIT: No I am not trying to mislead you. I don't know anything about the Reverend's arrest. There were many incidents. I myself wasn't present when that took place and I can't recall any such incident. It's possible, because I don't know the Reverend, I suppose I wouldn't really remember the incident, so I can't say anything more about that.

MR NTSEBEZA: Do you know if any other Reverend, persons, members of the clergy fraternity were there and gave eye witness accounts of what happened? As an information gatherer did you manage to pick that up, that on those three days there were eye witness accounts given by other ministers, did you manage to pick that up?

MR DU TOIT: Yes, yes I was aware that church people had testified that they were on the scene. I later became aware of that.

MR NTSEBEZA: Were you not aware shortly thereafter that there were church people who claimed to have been eye witnesses to what happened on that day?

MR DU TOIT: No, I wasn't immediately aware of that because I wasn't present at those incidents or scenes.

MR NTSEBEZA: You don't have to have to have been present to have been doing your job properly as an information gatherer. On the Wednesday, June the 11th, the Cape Times ran in its leader page a detailed account of who the witnesses were. Reverend John Fryer.

"We saw Police covering the Witdoeke and firing on the defending shacks".

Reverend John Freeth,

"It was very clear that the Witdoeke were operating under Police protection".

Reverend David Cooke,

"Right in front of us there were three casspirs. No attempt was made to stop the looting, burning and fighting. I saw a policeman shooting with a rifle into KTC defenders to prevent them from defending their property".

Father Desmond Curren, St Gabriels Guguletu and Mrs Emma Huismans, Editor of Crisis News, they all gave accounts.

Now are you saying this was as it was happening, it was reported as it was happening, are you saying, as a person whose duty it was to gather information that you were not aware that not only were there these people who were there but they were making those claims? Did you become aware for instance as at that date that there were these claims that were being made?

MR DU TOIT: I also read about it in the media and the press ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you very much.

MR DU TOIT: Thank you.

MR NTSEBEZA: When once you read that these are the people who were giving accounts did you endeavour to contact them?

MR DU TOIT: No, no I didn't contact them.

MR NTSEBEZA: Didn't you consider that it would have been useful for your report to be a balanced report, especially as you were going to take it ...(intervention)

MR DU TOIT: No, no I reported regarding the media and press reports as to what had happened.

MR NTSEBEZA: No, I am asking a specific question Mr du Toit. Didn't you consider it was in the best interests of a balanced report for you to contact the people who were making these claims, or were reported to be making these claims?

MR DU TOIT: Yes, no I didn't ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: Now what is your answer, is it yes, is it no, is it yes-no?

MR DU TOIT: No I didn't consider it necessary to contact them after the statements I had read, statements that they had made in the press.

MR NTSEBEZA: Why didn't you consider it necessary to contact them?

MR DU TOIT: Because I had already seen their views in the newspaper.

MR NTSEBEZA: And - because you had seen their views in the newspapers, was it because you didn't like their views that you felt that it is not necessary to contact them? I don't understand.

MR DU TOIT: No, no Chairperson, it's not that I didn't like them or what they were saying, I accepted that they were saying that that's what they had seen.

MR NTSEBEZA: Right. Did you incorporate those views in your report to whoever you were reporting? Did you say, there is also an account here, there's an account which says - by John Fryer, this person this, did you incorporate those?

MR DU TOIT: Most definitely.

MR NTSEBEZA: Do you have a copy of that report or can you find it?

MR DU TOIT: No, no I have no copies.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ramashala wants to make a follow-up question.

DR RAMASHALA: Mr du Toit you have had 11 to 12 years to think about this, upon reflection do you think you should have included this information in your report? I am talking about now. You've had quite a bit of time to think about it, I hope you've thought about it. Do you think that you should have included this information from the clergy in your report? I am trying to get your thinking today.

MR DU TOIT: You want to know how I feel about it today, I am not quite sure what you mean. Could you please make it a little bit clearer.

DR RAMASHALA: Sir, 60 people were killed, numerous others were injured, almost 60,000 people lost their homes, during this past 11 to 12 years have you thought about this, have you been thinking about this?

MR DU TOIT: Oh yes very definitely, I've thought about it a lot.

DR RAMASHALA: What specifically have you been thinking?

MR DU TOIT: That it was cruel, it was inhumane to kill people and you abhor it, and it happens.

DR RAMASHALA: Now Sir, having thought about it and reflecting about the nature of your report do you think that you should have included the information - or actually, do you think you should have interviewed the clergy about what they saw, in your report?

MR DU TOIT: No I still believe that I acted correctly, I acted correctly, the way I acted was correct.

DR RAMASHALA: And you don't think that your report was not balanced?

MR DU TOIT: No, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Dumisa Ntsebeza.

MR NTSEBEZA: I am just going to ask mechanically questions that you should reply to as best you can.

Now for instance in your report did you mention that prior to the attacks on KTC, on the morning of 9th June, policemen were seen at meetings with Witdoeke in Crossroads and Khayaletsha where the advance on KTC was discussed, was that part of your report?

MR DU TOIT: Could I perhaps see that, I don't have it in front of me, I don't ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: You are the one who made the report Mr du Toit, don't let us play games here. You made the report, if you recall whether you had mentioned it you can just say it.

MR DU TOIT: I can't recall, could I perhaps see a copy of this ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: I don't know, this is from witness accounts. Do you recall if in your report you had mentioned that on the morning of the 9th of June policemen were seen gathering at meetings with Witdoeke in Crossroads and Khayaletsha where the advance on KTC was discussed, do you recall if that was part of your report?

MR DU TOIT: No, no ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: You didn't report that?

MR DU TOIT: No that wasn't part of my report, I don't know anything about that.

MR NTSEBEZA: Because you didn't have that information?

MR DU TOIT: No, no, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry can I just ask you, what then was the conclusion of your report? What was the conclusion of your report - you remember very clearly that that was not part of your report, but can you tell us what was the conclusion of your report?

MR DU TOIT: I still don't understand the question, what do you mean what conclusion?

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Dumisa Ntsebeza.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did your report allege that when the Witdoeke gathered in their thousands on the western end of Crossroads from early in the morning of the 9th of June 1986 the Railway Police were present? You had been talking with Dolf on a fairly intimate basis before this ...(intervention)

MR DU TOIT: Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: So where the riot police are concerned Dolf would have been involved in this. Now did your report mention that on the morning of the 9th of June as thousands of Witdoeke massed on the western edge of Crossroads, the riot police were present, did your report mention that, do you remember?

MR DU TOIT: I would have given a complete description, that's all I can tell you but I can't remember those details, but what Dolf had said and so forth, that I would have reported on quite thoroughly.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did you report that shortly after 10 the Witdoeke advanced westwards towards KTC, brushing aside KTC residents who had gathered near Crossroads and after first setting fire to tents in Zolani Centre they went on and reached and started setting fire to KTC, did your report mention that detail?

MR DU TOIT: No ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: That firstly they gathered, secondly, they marched after setting fire to tents and Zolani Centre they then reached and started setting fire to KTC, do you recall if your report had mentioned that?

MR DU TOIT: No, no, those detailed movements etc, that was Dolf's job, he would report on that, that would not be part of my report.

MR NTSEBEZA: No, no, no, it was your job to report - you were gathering information of what happened in terms of your own testimony today.

MR DU TOIT: Ja, ja.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now did your report say that the police took no action to disperse the Witdoeke or to prevent them from advancing on KTC, did your report mention that?

MR DU TOIT: No, because I hadn't had that information.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did your report mention that instead the police advanced with, or escorted the advancing Witdoeke, and when KTC residents attempted to resist the attack the police use gunfire and teargas to drive them off, did your report mention that?

MR DU TOIT: No, my report did not contain that detailed information because I hadn't been there personally. That would have been contained in Dolf's operational reports.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did your report mention that the police in their armed casspirs stood by while Witdoeke advanced past them into KTC and started burning under their very noses, did your report mention that?

MR DU TOIT: No my report did not mention that.

MR NTSEBEZA: So you were informing the police commissioner on what had happened on the 9th and the 10th and the 11th, information that was at best half-baked, would you agree with that?

MR DU TOIT: No, the information which I gave I believed was balanced, it wasn't half-baked. And I must also say that the operational information would be channelled through Dolf's channels.

MR NTSEBEZA: Where would Dolf have found this information from? Did you say information with Dolf?

MR DU TOIT: Yes, yes Dolf and I shared information but those finer details regarding movements etc that would have been part of Dolf's report to the Commissioner because it concerned how his people would have moved and their movements, and how his people reported to him, so I think he would be able to tell you about that.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now you testified that Ngxobongwana was arrested in April, or at least he was detained for quite some time from April 1985, now I take it that you were, as a Security policeman you were aware of the provisions of the Internal Security Act in terms of which people were detained at the time, is that correct?

MR DU TOIT: Yes, yes I was aware of the legislation.

MR NTSEBEZA: You were aware that the legislation provided for a person to be held in communicado, that means in circumstances where the person was not able to be visited by friends and family, by lawyers, except only occasionally by a magistrate and/or a judge, and/or a district surgeon?

MR DU TOIT: Yes I am aware of those provisions.

MR NTSEBEZA: It was in circumstances where it was possible, in fact the provision of the law, I think you are aware of this, was that a person would be kept in detention until they have replied to questions satisfactorily, you are aware of that?

MR DU TOIT: That is correct, yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: And in fact the determiner of whether the questions were satisfactory would, for all practical purposes, be the detainer, in other words the police person and/or the Commissioner of Police. It would lie not on the courts of law, not on anything but the person who has caused the person to be detained as to whether the questions had been answered satisfactorily or not. That was the law, do you agree with that?

MR DU TOIT: Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: And your own testimony was that before this arrest Ngxobongwana was in fact part and parcel of the same group of people as constituted the group called the Comrades, they were all part of the United Democratic Front, they were one single group.

MR DU TOIT: Yes, Ngxobongwana was a member of the United Democratic Front in those years.

MR NTSEBEZA: Ja, before he went to prison.

MR DU TOIT: Yes, yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: And after a period of detention without trial, as I have described, he came back a different person, would you agree? That is the conclusion we can draw from his actions. Would you be able to draw that same conclusion from what he behaved like after he came out of detention?

MR DU TOIT: Yes he had a different approach, a different attitude and convictions.

MR NTSEBEZA: Something must have happened to him whilst he was held in prison and only members of the Security police had access to him whilst he was there, do you agree? Are you uncomfortable with the question?

MR DU TOIT: No I am not uncomfortable with the question but I don't think it was only members of the Security police, the doctor, magistrate, uniformed policemen and so on would also have had access to him in detention but the Security police, yes, they certainly had access to such a person, that is correct.

MR NTSEBEZA: You are not suggesting that the magistrate or the doctor would have been questioning him whilst he was in detention would you? You are not suggesting that the doctor would be interrogating him whilst he was in detention are you?

MR DU TOIT: No, no, that's not what I am suggesting.

MR NTSEBEZA: Nor the magistrate?

MR DU TOIT: The magistrate would have, I am sure, have asked him whether he had any complaints or problems.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes. So it was the police who had an interest in asking him questions on the basis of which, if he had answered them satisfactorily, he would be released?

MR DU TOIT: Yes it can be accepted that that was the practice at the time, and was the purpose of the detention.

MR NTSEBEZA: And as a policeman, as a Security policeman, if for instance it was you were detaining, you would tell him if you don't reply to questions you are going to remain here, you are going to rot here until you answer questions satisfactorily, not so? And you would be stating the law, not so?

MR DU TOIT: It is possible that a policeman could have acted in that way but I wouldn't have done it ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: No Mr du Toit it's not a question of possibility, that was the position. You would explain to a detainee that listen the law provides that I can keep you here for as long as you do not answer questions satisfactorily, and you made that understood by the detainee, not so?

MR DU TOIT: Yes ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes. Are you aware that whilst Ngxobongwana was in prison he was - are you aware that whilst he was in prison or immediately after his release from detention he switched lawyers and insisted on being represented by Mr Ivan Swartzberg from Pretoria, are you aware of that?

MR DU TOIT: I am aware of that, that Mr Ngxobongwana made use of Mr Swartzberg in connection with, I think, a rental issue in New Crossroads, but I am not 100% sure, but I know he made use of a Swartzberg attorney relating to some housing or rental issue in New Crossroads.

MR NTSEBEZA: You would agree with me that it is quite a distance to get a lawyer from Pretoria to discuss rent, rental issues, from Cape Town, given that there were lawyers who represented him before he went into prison?

MR DU TOIT: Yes it is quite a vast distance, I know.

MR NTSEBEZA: You see the suggestion that I would like to put to you for your comment and I accept because I can't say anything differently, that you didn't meet him whilst he was in prison, is it fair to suggest that during that period of in communicado detention Mr Ngxobongwana was persuaded by the police to work for the police or on the side of the police and to discard any relationship with the UDF, what's your comment?

MR DU TOIT: Chairperson my view is, and that is my personal view, I can't speak on anybody else's behalf, but I don't think that that is what happened. I never saw him whilst he was in prison and I don't think that the people who worked with him whilst he was in prison would have done that, it is possible of course but that is not what I think would have happened.

MR NTSEBEZA: Why do you explain this dramatic change in his attitude? The first meeting that he holds he lambasts and deals in fact with the UDF in terms that suggest that he is now at war with them. This is an organisation that he belonged to.

MR DU TOIT: That is because the New Crossroads residents had become embroiled in conflict amongst themselves and the people accused each other of being UDF or non UDF or whatever, so a division arose amongst the people of New Crossroads and his supporters and his followers reported to him what the causes for this would have been and the conclusion which I can draw is that he believed what his people told him.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see. Now finally maybe I want to ask the questions that Dr Ramashala was asking from you. When you look back 11 years, almost ten years, do you think that the attack or the attacks by Witdoeke could have been prevented given that there were riot police, there was a unit of the army and that the full force of the South African Security Forces was equipped to deal with those situations adequately?

Maybe the first day it could not have been prevented but an orgy that lasted three days do you think it is something that could have been avoided, or at least could have been prevented by the security forces with enough will on their part to do so?

And you must give your answer against the background of a court order that had been obtained immediately before the attack on KTC that specifically enjoined the police and the army, not only to participate in the attacks but to make sure that those attacks did not take place. I am not accusing you because you are not on trial. I am just asking you as a witness to reflect and to give what you consider an honest reply.

MR DU TOIT: Chairperson that is a question which a lot of people are thinking about. I have also thought about this, what more could have been done, but as far as I am concerned and on the knowledge I had I don't know what the security forces could have done additionally. I don't know whether they had enough manpower at their disposal. I am not sure but I really and honestly don't know what more they could have done. I believe that all agencies at their disposal had been utilised.

MR NTSEBEZA: Chairperson I am through with this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Dumisa. Just one little question, you described yourself earlier as someone who was concerned with the social welfare, social problems and you actually used that term very frequently earlier on in your presentation, how often did you go to the SACLA Clinic as someone who was concerned with those kind of issues in the community?

MR DU TOIT: I transported many people to the SACLA Clinic ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No I mean yourself, for purposes of your own information gathering, someone who had the interests of the community at heart.

MR DU TOIT: I can't remember, I may have gone to the SACLA Clinic but I know that I definitely went to other clinics, but I honestly can't tell you that I went there or that I didn't go there, but it wouldn't have happened frequently ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You know that there's an expression in Xhosa that says (speaks Xhosa and does not translate it), you really sound like someone (.........). Anyway we have concluded the questioning ...(intervention)

MR BRAND: Chairperson could you just translate the expression to him please.

CHAIRPERSON: No these devices are for purposes of interpretation. I am not going to translate it.

INTERPRETER: Would the Commissioner please repeat it wasn't translated to the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: In Xhosa there is an expression which literally says "you are running away with saddles", which figuratively means "you are running away with the truth".

Excuse me are you struggling with the interpretation - I was just saying in English, now, what it seems to us that you are being evasive. That's really what it means.

Thank you. We have completed our questioning of Mr du Toit.