MS SOOKA
Are you able to hear me, okay ...[intervention]
WITNESSES
Yes, we can hear you.
MS SOOKA
Thank you, we’d like to welcome all three of you here. We’re very happy that you’ve agreed to come and give evidence. But before you begin your story, we would like you to take the oath. Could Mary please stand and Advocate Potgieter will administer the oath to you. Mary?
MARY MABILO Duly sworn states
ADV POTGIETER
Thank you.
MS SOOKA
Could Florence please stand?
ADV POTGIETER
Are your full names Florence Matlakala?
MS MATLAKALA
That’s true.
FLORENCE MATLAKALA Duly sworn states
ADV POTGIETER
Thank you.
MS SOOKA
You may be seated. Could Sheila Mabozo please stand?
SHEILA MABOZO Duly sworn states
ADV POTGIETER
Thank you.
MS SOOKA
You may be seated. As is customary when we have witnesses testifying we allocate a Commissioner to assist you with the leading of the evidence. In this case it will be Advocate Potgieter who will assist you to tell your story. Please feel free and comfortable - this is your moment.
ADV POTGIETER
We will start with Ms Mabilo - Ms Mary Mabilo. The incident you are about to give evidence on concerns your - the shooting of your son way back in 1987. But before we get there perhaps you can tell us who you are, where you live.
MS MABILO
I am Mary Mabilo, I’m Lathli’s mother - Peter Mabilo. I stay at 88 Lotatsi in Galishewe Village.
ADV POTGIETER
The incident concerning Lathli your son happened in 1987, is that correct?
MS MABILO
Yes, that’s correct.
ADV POTGIETER
In fact happened at the home of Ms Sheila Mabozo - who’s also with you today.
MS MABILO
Yes, it took place at Ms Sheila Mabozo’s house.
ADV POTGIETER
Can you tell us about that incident, Ms Mabilo?
MS MABILO
I want to tell you the story according how I heard it. This child was not at home because they - they’ve been arrested before. I still remember it was in 1985, five of then were arrested and they were - they stayed in jail for 25 days. I went to ask then why did they arrest the children. They said to me we will let them free on a certain date and I went back to work. When I came back from work that day, my child was at home and I didn’t say anything.
On the 6th of May - on the 5th of May in that year they were at [indistinct] and they were arrested. The next morning I went to see them, he was badly assaulted. And I couldn’t realise he was my child and I went back home. They stayed in the cells for 8 months and their - on the other side their court hearing was continuing. There were 5 - it continued until December and on the 19th it went to the Supreme Court and it - they were discharged. And they managed to come back home and they carried on with their schooling.
While schooling I didn’t have sleep at all because the police would come home - I didn’t know where was sleeping because he didn’t sleep at home. But when I prepared myself for work he would come and prepare himself for school. I didn’t know what was happening because he wasn’t fond of lingering around the streets. He was a church-goer - he used to be at the church and he belonged to the Christian Youth Organisations. Some - some - some of the people didn’t like what our children were doing.
And as time went on he said to me I want to leave this place - I’m going to - to seek another place where I can go to school. I said to him go Lathli, and then he left. Months went by not knowing where my child was, I was very un restless. Terror [indistinct] I couldn’t rest and every time they come to me I would give them answers and I would say to them you started with my child, what did you want from him.
Things were like that - years went by and they came to me at work and they questioned me about things that I do not understand. While interrogating me I kept on saying I don’t know what you are asking. And - and he said I should sign a form, I said to him I don’t to sign this because I don’t know what am I signing. And my employer said give me those papers so that I can read then and after that I signed. I knocked of and I went home - a year went by I didn’t see my child. He left in 1985.
UNKNOWN
The interpreters can not hear the speaker. The mike is not on.
MS MABILO
I think my son disappeared for a year and 7 months and I saw him on the 8th month. I saw him only one day - just one day. It was that night when he came to me and I was so happy to see him - he was so handsome. But I had troubles within me - I didn’t know whether this child will live for me and I didn’t know what was God’s plan with my son.
Those who were after him were so many, and I only gave then to God - I said God help me. You know I used to pray because I was like a Samaritan woman. And the next day - it was a Friday and we were told he was dead. It was about 3 o’clock in the morning when I went outside - I couldn’t sleep. All lights were off and I asked myself I didn’t know what was happening. I said who’s child is being killed at this moment, I was alone outside asking myself this question. I was troubled and I started suspecting something. God was telling me - God was sending me a message that this thing is happening for you. I [indistinct] - I [indistinct] down at my door and I prayed.
When I arrived at work the boers interrogated me - they asked me, they said Mary what was - what’s happening. I said no I don’t know anything, I said to them maybe you might know what’s happening - I don’t. But in my heart, in my soul I knew exactly what happened because my ancestors told me and that was the truth. I went to work as a person who don’t have any information and after work I went home and two women came to my house.
While I was just about to get into my house they were coming just after me and I asked myself what do these women want. Again there was an indication - I found out that my furniture was taken out of my house without my consultation. I went into my bedroom and I spoke to my ancestors. I said - I said I don’t know whether - had he been killed or had he been arrested. My sister in law came to me and she said to me: You must know that you’ve lost your son. I said to her: Sister my ancestors told me before hand about this incident.
This was my son that I trusted, he was at St Bonavess School doing Std 9. I hope that I’ve told you what I wanted to tell you. The comrades came to assist me - even if they ran away at times, not staying with me for quite a long time but they came to help. I stayed like that and the police van was parked at my gate at night and my son was at the mortuary. I said to the children in the house: lets go to sleep, we’ll see what tomorrow brings.
The next morning I went to church to consult with the Ministers. I was together with my brother and my sister - my sister in law’s child. And they took my to Transvaal Road Police Station. When I entered there I saw a man and I asked myself, I said: God is this not the man who killed my son. And the Minister assisted me because I couldn’t stand any more. They greeted us and we sat down, the Minister was talking to them and he said to them: We are here because of a certain case, and they gave us an answer. They said to us - they said: Can you please come and see us on Monday because we are closed today, and then we left the place. We went back to our homes, we went to Ipopeng. I remember the Minister asked me whether do I know the place where my child was killed. I said: Yes, I’ve been told. We went to Ipopeng - at Ipopeng the place was full of blood but the Minister prayed and he used water at that house. I then talked with the owner of the house and he asked her where the children were and she told the - the Minister where the children were.
Everything was up side down, Terra came while we were there. I looked at him twice, three times and I couldn’t look at him any more. And I heard as if someone was saying to me Terra killed your son. And I was - I was certain that it was Terra who killed my son. And he - he came into the house and he wanted Misty Mabozo’s clothes and the sister took the clothes and she gave them to him.
ADV POTGIETER
If you don’t feel well to carry on then you can indicate that and perhaps we can take some of the other evidence.
MS MABILO
Yes, I don’t feel well.
ADV POTGIETER
Okay, then we’ll stand down - stand your evidence down for the moment and I think we’ll - will take the evidence of your daughter, of Florence and we could come back to you if there’s something you want to add to what you’ve said. So would you pass the mike to Florence please. [indistinct] going to switch that mike on please, okay.
Florence the case concerns Lathli and the shooting incident that happened at Ms Maboza’s house in 1987. Tell me first of all were you at Ms Maboza’s house when this incident happened …END OF TAPE 4, SIDE A…
MS MATLAKALA
[indistinct] educate myself, we didn’t know his whereabouts. He didn’t write any letter, he didn’t give us any telephone call. In 1987 our grandmother came and said Lathli is now back. The - my mother went to Ipopeng together with her, on the day of his arrival I also went to see him and said to me we don’t have to tell any body that he is back because his life would be in danger.
And he told me the second thing and he said I should bring him his girlfriend. I said to him Lathli: You said to me nobody should know that you are back. And I said to him: Why do you want me to bring your girlfriend, and he said: No I want to see her before I leave. I went to fetch Dumy and I took her to my grandmother’s house. Well, they talked - that was in the week he was supposed to leave. On the day of his departure he was together with his girlfriend Dumy. I asked him: Luthli why did you come, what are you doing here, and he said: No I’m - I wanted to bring the message home. I have to tell Manidi Pitsho a certain message, I have to meet him before I leave.
Dumy also asked him what brought him back and he only said to Dumy: Love brought me back, I love you. On that Friday when we heard that he had been killed my mamma was at work and I was at school. We didn’t know what happened. My mamma normally wakes up very early in the morning and when she went out of the house all the lights were off. That was the time when my brother was killed. On that - on that Friday when we came back home the house was full of people and I asked: What was happening, and they said no my brother had been killed.
My mamma was not at - at home that time but when she arrived she discovered that her furniture and her belongings were removed out of the house. The police were harassing us before we could bury Luthli and they told us not be bury Luthli on a weekend - it should be during the week. They wanted us to do everything according to their orders. We buried him on the 2nd of September 1987. The body was not at home yet, the police arrived. The police were around - they came to us at the church and they instructed us how the ceremony should be conducted. At the grave yard we were standing there and they said they’re only giving us 5 minutes and everything should be done within 5 minutes.
After the coffin was put into the grave they said they’re giving us 3 minutes to disperse. When people were busy putting soil into the grave they started shooting. At home food had been prepared for the people who were at the funeral, while people were busy eating the police came in. They said they don’t want anybody around, they went straight to the women who prepared the food and started tear gassing them.
Many people didn’t eat on that day, food was just destroyed - it was hot, we had to - we had to dig up holes so that we can throw the food inside and they continually came to us, asking us Lathli’s whereabouts. They wanted his photo’s and we said we don’t have.
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct] belong to any organisations, your brother?
MS MATLAKALA
He was in the [indistinct] organisation and he was in the ANC.
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct] who arranged that funeral. Was it the family or was it an organisation or what?
MS MATLAKALA
His organisation together with the family organised the proceedings of the funeral.
ADV POTGIETER
Is there anything else that you want to add to your evidence because I’m about to ask Ms Mabozo to talk.
MS MATLAKALA
I think you can carry on with this - with Ms Mabozo, you’ll ask me later on.
ADV POTGIETER
Thank you very much, so I’ll then ask Ms Mabozo. Ms Mabozo where do you live?
MS MABOZO
I stay at Kagiso 108, that is in Ipopeng.
ADV POTGIETER
And is that where the incident happened - the shooting incident where Luthli was killed?
MS MABOZO
Yes, that’s the place where the thing happened.
ADV POTGIETER
Are you the Aunt of Luthli, the deceased?
MS MABOZO
I’m his grandmother.
ADV POTGIETER
His grandmother? Now this incident that happened, can you explain what - what actually - what took place?
MS MABOZO
Yes, I can explain what happened. In 1987 - it was in August - it was in the morning at 4 o’clock while we were sleeping we heard a knock at the door. And I peeped threw the window and I saw guys facing at the window. My husband woke up to open the door and when he opened they handcuffed him and they let him stay outside.
I was shocked, why didn’t he speak and I went out to go and investigate. These white policemen said to me I should take the children out of the house. Well, I called my children outside but Luthli stayed inside. While I was still outside they took a tear gas and they threw it into the house. Luthli picked it up and threw it back and he closed the door. One of the boys shouted - I don’t know whether he is a police. He said: Luthli get out, Luthli got out of the house and he - he raised his hands.
He started shouting, he said: Mum they are taking me away.
ADV POTGIETER
Ms Mabozo we know that it’s very difficult to recount and take your time but it is important for us to hear the story of Luthli so that the Commission can deal with that. When you feel a bit better then we can carry on.
MS MABOZO
Yes, we can carry on.
ADV POTGIETER
What happened further?
MS MABOZO
And they took my husband - they put him into the van and they left with him and we were still outside together with the children. We stayed for quite a long time - it was really a long time. And one of the white men said: All lights should be put off, I don’t know what were they doing inside the house. It was now morning and they left one policeman behind and a lot of them went away.
And I asked him whether should I open the house so that the children can prepare themselves to go to school and he refused. When I got into the house at - at a later stage everything was broken, windows were broken. All the shelves were upside down and they - they shot the walls. Even now there are holes - bullet holes. On Sunday they came to fetch me and they took me to the 6th floor. When we arrived there, they put me in a - in a room and they let me sit on the chair.
And they said I should tell them where Luthli was, they said I should tell them the truth. I said to them: I don’t know any truth that I can tell you because I don’t know where Luthli is. And they took me to the other room - there was a Tswana policeman and he blindfolded me and he put something into my ears. And those things - those sharp things damaged my ears. They said to me: Speak the truth, I said to them: There is no truth that is further than what I’ve said.
They put these sharp instruments back into my ears and they - they were hurting. I said: There is nothing that I can tell you, I stayed there for the whole day and in the afternoon this Tswana policeman said: We should take him to the Barkley cells so that he - she can sleep there because she doesn’t want to tell us anything. I was so deeply hurt to hear that I have to go and sleep in the cells. While I was taken to Barkley - I slept there Sunday and Monday. Tuesday morning they came to - to take me and they took me to the 6th floor. The evening of the same day they took me back home.
ADV POTGIETER
Ms Mabozo I - I just need to take you back slightly because it is important for us to have all the facts. I just want to go back to the incident itself. Now you explained that at one stage after your husband was taken by the police you were told to go outside with the children which you did. Now, can you explain to us again from that point when you were outside in the street with the children and you said Luthli was inside the house. Can you - can you explain to us what happened, how did the shooting happen?
MS MABOZO
The - this person shouted, he said Luthli, Luthli come out. Luthli got out of the house, his hands were up. And the door was open and they started shooting and his hands were still held up. And he fell on his knees and they got into the house and they closed the door. And then they started shooting - I don’t know how many times did they shoot at him.
ADV POTGIETER
Was - was Luthli inside the house together with the police or - or what happened? We just need to understand exactly ...[intervention]
MS MABOZO
They shot him the first time, he was alone in the house. He was in the passage, they were outside but the door was open. But when he shouted: Mother, he fell on his knees and then they got into the house - they closed the door.
ADV POTGIETER
Did the police shoot tear gas into the house at any stage?
MS MABOZO
They started with the tear gas first - they shot the tear gas first.
ADV POTGIETER
Now, what - what happened when you went back inside your house, what did you see inside there, what was the condition of your house and the furniture?
MS MABOZO
My furniture was badly damaged, the display glasses were shot and they were broken. Even the door frame - there - there’s still a hole - a bullet hole.
ADV POTGIETER
Now I just want to see whether I understand the evidence correctly. Was it after Luthli was shot that the police went into the house and when a lot of shots were fired inside the house?
MS MABOZO
They shot Luthli and they got into the house and they started shooting - they continued shooting.
ADV POTGIETER
And afterwards could you see in which direction the - the police were shooting. Could you - could you see marks in the house - bullet marks?
MS MABOZO
The one that is - the bullet mark that is in the house is the one that was shot from outside.
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct] with him on that morning when the police came to your house?
MS MABOZO
No he didn’t have any weapon.
ADV POTGIETER
Before that - the shooting happened was he living with you for some time?
MS MABOZO
Yes, he’d being staying with me for a month.
ADV POTGIETER
Did you see any weapons - any arms during that time that he was with you for about a month?
MS MABOZO
I’ve never seen him carrying anything.
ADV POTGIETER
Now we - we’ve heard that Luthli was gone for more that a month - I’m sorry more than a year from home - about a year and seven months according to his mother. Have you - have you got any idea where he had been to during that period?
MS MABOZO
When I - when he came back I asked where he was. He said: No I’d been away to - to Leng.
ADV POTGIETER
Thank you Ms Mabozo, we’ll just hear if Ms Mabilo has got anything to add to her evidence before I conclude. Ms Mabilo was there anything else that you wanted to tell us about this incident?
MS MABILO
Yes, I would like to say something. I wasn’t aware that the child was there for a month. I know that he was having only days being in Kimberley. Terra is the one who did this and I would like you to call Terra in front - to call him to appear in front of me so that he can explain to me why he killed my child. He must have that responsibility on his shoulders to tell why he killed my son.
We can forgive all people besides Terra, I would like him to appear before me and explain to me.
ADV POTGIETER
Is there anything else that you feel that the Commission could do for you apart from Terra?
MS MABILO
I request that - I am a poor woman and I struggled a lot. I cannot work for myself as you see me and this is because of Terra. Now this - these hands are not functioning any more, I cannot work for myself. And the comrades are taking me to doctors. As you see me I am under treatment, I - I hoped that while he was doing such things he would - he would be looking at me. But that wasn’t the case, I thought he would have a feeling for me.
I cannot even hear thoroughly, I am nothing. I don’t have any child to look up to - a child who would work for me. Nobody is employed at home - all of us are at home. My family is a disgrace. I hope I’ve just said everything and I thank you, I thank the Commission because we never thought that we would come here. And nobody knew that we would be sitting as we are seated now. Nobody knew that today would we hacked as we are held now. I want him to feel the pain that I felt, I don’t have a husband who can work for me, I thank you.
ADV POTGIETER
I thank you - I thank you too for your evidence and for sharing that with us. You’ve referred to Terra now, we - we need some more information to be able to - to try and comply with your request. Has he got a surname, Terra?
MS MABILO
I’m not sure, I think his surname is Cacampa. I’m not sure whether call him Cacampa.
ADV POTGIETER
And assume that it is a policeman?
MS MABILO
That’s truth, his a policeman.
ADV POTGIETER
Here in Kimberley?
MS MABILO
Yes, he’s in Kimberley.
ADV POTGIETER
Ms Mabilo thank you.
MS SOOKA
Ms Mabilo, Florence, Ms Mabozo we grieve with you because we know that you have suffered. The loss of a son is a very sad thing and today we have heard plenty of stories of mothers who don’t know where their sons have gone, who don’t know how their sons have died and who’s sons have actually - who’s lives have actually been wasted.
We will do as you say, you’ve asked us to find out why Terra did this to your son. We need to go and find evidence to prove that he actually assist in the killing of your son. But the Commission will try to do what it can to find out what the circumstances were when your son died. Thank you for coming all of you to share your story with us, thank you.
