REV XUNDU: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Zanyiwe Angelina Nosisi Kakana, please stand up.
ZANYIWE ANGELINA NOSISI KAKANA: (Duly sworn in, states).
REV XUNDU: Thank you.
NOKUZOLA LENA "NONHI" KAKANA: (Duly sworn in, states).
BUTI JOHN KAKANA: (Duly sworn in, states).
REV XUNDU: Thank you. Mr Chairperson, they have been properly sworn in.
CHAIRPERSON: We welcome the three of you. I see that Wele Samuel Kakana is not here. May we ask Mr Ntsiki Sandi to be the one leading you with questions on behalf of the Commission.
ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Kakana, as a family you took a decision that you are going to be the one who will give us a detailed background about the story.
MR KAKANA: Yes, that is so, but they will help me in certain things.
ADV SANDI: They will add to those you have, to those you forgot.
MR KAKANA: Yes.
ADV SANDI: But you are going to be the one who will tell us the whole story. Let us start this way. Mr Kakana, you were listening when Menzi's family was testifying here.
MR KAKANA: Yes, that is correct.
ADV SANDI: Before we deal with what they have said, where are you staying now? Are you still in Cookhouse?
MR KAKANA: No, I am in Fort Beaufort now.
ADV SANDI: Where are you working?
MR KAKANA: I am a police, I started in 1988.
ADV SANDI: Where are you stationed? Are you in Fort Beaufort?
MR KAKANA: I am here in Grahamstown.
ADV SANDI: Thank you. I will hand over to you, Mr Kakana, without disturbing you. I will hand over to you to tell us about the pain experienced in your family, because I see in the statement there are many people who died, who lost their lives in your family. Please tell us, at this stage, what happened.
MR KAKANA: One of my family members was found in, near a soccer veld in 1985, but I do not remember the month. He was stabbed and he died there. We heard in the afternoon that the son was dead, he was stabbed. We did not know who stabbed him. Xolisile Stemele came and said we must open a case, but we did not know who stabbed him. At the time of the funeral, we buried him. Our church, our congregation, the Methodist Church did not take part in the funeral, but we, up until today we do not know the reason for that.
As the time went by we stayed at home. We did not isolate ourselves from the people, we were amongst the people in every activity in Cookhouse. I did not belong to any other member, but what, the organisation I belonged to was the Resident's Organisation. We were playing rugby together with the men who testified before me. We played for the same team, but I changed to another team. The time went by. This incident happened when my mother's sister's son was killed. After that there was this conflict. There was no reason for that. Nobody was asking questions, we were not asking questions to each other, but fortunately or unfortunately the wife of the man who testified before use to come to me, because I was selling veg. She use to come to me for advice and I would give her advice, but this conflict came. I heard that UDF and AZAPO were mentioned. I was not a member of AZAPO. If there were any AZAPO meetings, maybe they were held in Xhalanga's house.
One teacher, Nyelake's teacher, was killed. He was stabbed in the house. After that he was taken out to be burnt.
ADV SANDI: Who killed this teacher?
MR KAKANA: I do not know, because at that time we were in our houses, but he was killed. After that he was burnt. After that we saw that the situation was bad, because if people are going to be burnt, the situation would be worse. After that the incident of his wife happened. We were not present there. Dickie, my sister's child, died that same day. In that funeral, also, members of our congregation did not take part. It was on the 26th of February when this incident happened. On the ninth of March 1986 we left the township, we stayed in the tents.
ADV SANDI: Let me disrupt you, Mr Kakana. You said that at the time when Mrs Menzi was killed, who was not present?
MR KAKANA: We were not present.
ADV SANDI: You, as a family of Kakana?
MR KAKANA: We were not present, but the rumours said that the Kakana family was in the shop to kill his wife.
ADV SANDI: Did you have a shop?
MR KAKANA: Yes, I had a shop, but people boycotted my shop.
ADV SANDI: I have some questions to ask you. Is the lady next to you your mother?
MR KAKANA: She is my mother's sister.
ADV SANDI: In other words, do you mean that?
MR KAKANA: What I mean is the lady next to me is a wife to my father's brother. Her husband died in the 1960's.
ADV SANDI: Was he there when this incident happened?
MR KAKANA: No.
ADV SANDI: What about Nokuzola?
MR KAKANA: Nokuzola is the daughter of the lady next to me.
ADV SANDI: For how long did you stay in Cookhouse?
MR KAKANA: I was born in Cookhouse, I went to school there. My father was born in Fort Beaufort, but we were born in Cookhouse.
ADV SANDI: There was no conflict before.
MR KAKANA: Yes, there was no conflict before.
ADV SANDI: When you look at this matter, as I was reading in the statement, there are, this thing, this issue is very complex, but according to you, what is the main reason for all this?
MR KAKANA: This is very difficult, because I do not know what happened between Menzi's family and our family, because, as he mentioned, there was no conflict between us before. We were playing rugby together, there was no quarrel between us, but something came between these two families and we had to sit down, we were supposed to sit down to try and avoid such incidents.
ADV SANDI: I noticed that there are many people who died during this conflict. Who is Zolani Meko?
MR KAKANA: Zolani Meko is a grandchild of the lady next to me.
ADV SANDI: What about Batayi Kakana?
MR KAKANA: Batayi Kakana is also a family member. We found him in Stilberg and we were forced to bury him there. He was working in railway. He was staying there in Kommadagha. He was stabbed there.
ADV SANDI: Did he die at the time of this conflict?
MR KAKANA: Yes.
ADV SANDI: What about Weweyi Kakana?
MR KAKANA: Weweyi Kakana became a police, municipality, he was also killed. It was during a Good Friday, if I am not mistaken, he was killed in the township.
ADV SANDI: What about Mpendulo Kakana?
MR KAKANA: Mpendulo Kakana was the one who was supporting the lady next to me. He was looking after her and after her sister.
ADV SANDI: Is there any other name of the people who died of which we do not have her name or his name?
MR KAKANA: Yes, if I am not mistaken, there were six people who died. One of them was tortured and he was burnt in Bedford, Mbulelo Kakana.
ADV SANDI: Let us wait, Mr Kakana. You mentioned Mbulelo Kakana.
MR KAKANA: Yes. Mbulelo Kakana was burnt in Bedford.
ADV SANDI: At the beginning, Mr Kakana, you said that there was something that led to all this conflict, you were supposed to sit down and talk about this. What did you mean about this?
MR KAKANA: What I meant is we were supposed to sit down and resolve this matter, because Mr Menzi has already said that he did not have anything against Kakana's family. This was due to Xhalanga's family and people thought that the family was included in all this.
ADV SANDI: What meeting was held in Xhalanga?
MR KAKANA: I do not know, I just heard about this today.
ADV SANDI: In your statement you mentioned that you would like the Commission to help people to forgive each other in such situations. Can you please tell us exactly what you meant about this.
MR KAKANA: What I would like to say is that this thing is about the Menzi and Kakana family. I would like the Commission to bring them together because this has preyed to all the families. Everybody who did anything was doing this in Menzi and Kakana family name. If both families can come together, this will be resolved. I do go to Cookhouse, nothing is happening to me. We greet each other, but there is still something amongst us. We have to be together to greet each other and to hold hands so that we can forgive each other. That is what I meant.
ADV SANDI: Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr Kakana. Is that all you wanted to say before I can ask Nokuzola if she wants to add something?
MR KAKANA: Many family members have died like Batayi, our houses, we were homeless at that time, we had to start afresh to build houses, I resigned from the railway, I had to go back to start back, my aims were disrupted, I wanted to build future for my children. Nokuzola will help me because I can see that the lady next to me is very disturbed.
ADV SANDI: Do you want to add something, Nokuzola?
CHAIRPERSON: Before we can continue, there is something that I think should be stopped there at the door. I do not know whether these people just came in. We continued these proceedings very well, we were giving people respect who were testifying, but now I think there are people who are trying to disrupt our proceedings here in Grahamstown. We will ask these people to stop doing that. We do not like this. What we want is to give people who are here to testify, we want to give them respect to listen to them and to listen to their stories as we have listened to other stories before. If one has a problem, he has a right to leave the hall. I would like you to respect this, not to disrupt the proceedings of the Commission. Thank you.
MR KAKANA: Mr Chairperson, there is something I missed. There were mistakes which were written in newspapers and in the television that the Kakana family received R75 000,00. There is no such. The person who did that was Dr Vosloo who was in Somerset East. When I went to Somerset East to ask him about this I was told that he left Somerset to go to Transvaal. I would like him to come back and to tell the truth to the people, that the Kakana family received money in order to kill people. I would like the people to know that we are human-beings, we were living together with other people. We are not what other people think we are. I will hand over to Nokuzola to speak.
ADV SANDI: Mr Wele Samuel Kakana, who was supposed to be here, according to your knowledge what he was going to say is it the same as you have already said?
MR KAKANA: I am not sure, because a person changes all the time. He was supposed to be here. I tried yesterday as I received a telephone call at work, I tried to go to Cookhouse yesterday. It was raining and he said that he will be here. I am surprised today because he is not here. I cam from Fort Beaufort this morning and I came to these hearings. I do not know why he is not here. I do not know whether he will add something different to what I have already testified.
ADV SANDI: Do you know whether his house was burnt and his livestock?
MR KAKANA: At that time I cannot say clearly, because, but his house was burnt. He was supposed to come here to testify himself. There is another, our family members whose houses were burnt down and other houses were not rebuilt.
ADV SANDI: Let us now come to Nokuzola to hear what she has to say.
MS N L N KAKANA: As they have already said what happened, what I would like to add is that I would like Dr Vosloo to tell us in which bank he deposited this amount of money, where did he train the Kakana family. I would like the Commission to tell, to go to him and to ask him to explain all this.
ADV SANDI: Thank you, Nokuzola. Do you have anything to add, Mam, to this? Do you have anything else to add? Thank you Mr Kakana, thank you Nokuzola and thank you Mrs Kakana. I will hand over to the Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Reverend Xundu.
REV XUNDU: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I would like to know about the Dr Vosloo. What is his connection about the money, the amount of money received? What was his status?
MS N L N KAKANA: When I heard this from the radio, Dr Vosloo claimed that he gave the Kakana family this money as it was known that we were hired by the Boers to kill people. Dr Vosloo said that he gave this amount of money so that we can buy weapons.
REV XUNDU: Was he a doctor in Somerset East?
MS N L N KAKANA: Yes.
REV XUNDU: We have to investigate this. He has to give us evidence why did he say these accusations. The second point, Mr Chairperson, without wasting your time. I want you, Nokuzola, to tell us what can be done to bring about peace in these two families.
MS N L N KAKANA: As we went to them to ask for forgiveness, we spoke with each other, we are now greeting each other. Mr Menzi said that those who were, who did not go to him to apologise must go to him and apologise so that he can be satisfied. That is also my wish that those who did not go to him to apologise must do so.
REV XUNDU: What about Xhalanga?
MS N L N KAKANA: Xhalanga is in Fort Beaufort. There was another family, Antonie's family and Belanie's family, Jantjies family who was on our side.
REV XUNDU: You are also saying that there must be means to help you to be together to try and talk these things out.
MS N L N KAKANA: Yes, we can do that and that will help us in Cookhouse.
CHAIRPERSON: I want to ask questions about the conflict between the two families. It is not clear to me whether this conflict was political or whether it was due to the fact that these two families had businesses, they were competing.
MR KAKANA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, that is what I want to know, because if we can come together, we can find out what happened, what started all this problem. We have to sit down and each of us had to state, in front of the Commission what happened, because now, in the long run, the Kakanas' and the Menzis' are separate even if certain individuals are against the Kakana family, will say that they belong to the Menzi family.
CHAIRPERSON: I want to come to that point, because we found out that when there is such a difference, the police would come between the two families. According to you was there any involvement of the police?
MR KAKANA: Unfortunately, the, we were not members of the police force, as the Kakana family, we joined the police, because we were unemployed, we were stranded.
CHAIRPERSON: I am not asking that, Mr John Kakana. What I am trying to find is a solution to this problem and I think we are going to find a solution if we open our hearts and say the truth. I want to know that if, since there was this difference, did the police come between you, because the evidence we found here shows clearly that the police were not even-handed, they were favouring one side. I just want to hear your view about this matter.
MR KAKANA: Yes, it is so, but the police have to be asked whether they were supporting the Kakana family or the other side, but I do not remember.
CHAIRPERSON: According to you, there was no involvement?
MR KAKANA: No.
CHAIRPERSON: In other words, there was no third force, because in all these conflicts between UDF, Inkatha and Inkatha and ANC and Inkatha, there is always a third force. In your situation, you do not see any third force?
MR KAKANA: No, we were supporting each other as Kakana family as we are a big family. We were not depending on the police.
CHAIRPERSON: I think we will conclude this matter. We have noted your request. Reverend Xundu.
REV XUNDU: I want to add to what the Chairperson has already said. You were, you moved from the township to the tent, your people were allowed to have weapons. Do you think, do you not think that you have to say the truth, because now you are a police and the police force you are serving is not the past police, it is the present police. The key to this will happen if you all agree, if the police will say that we will fight with the UDF and we will be on the Kakana's side.
MR KAKANA: I do understand now. While we were staying in the tents, we have to rent the tents. We were not staying there free, we had to rent R10,00 per house. Even if this can be investigated, it will be found if the police were on our favour, they would have given us the place to stay without renting or paying anything. I am not against the investigation.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I do not want you to accept this, because in such conflicts there is always a third force, but it might happen that in the conflicts in Cookhouse there was no third force at all. This will make us very glad. I want to thank you for coming here with this painful story. People died during that time in your family. I want to say that all unnecessary loss of precious life and, as we are the Commission, any loss of life is a loss too much. It is painful to lose a life, it is more painful when it happens within our own communities. In your community, as I have already said, when we counted people who died in Kakana and also in the Menzi family, this is very painful. I do not know whether we will be able to deal with your request that we must try to make peace in your families. I do not want to promise anything, but it will be one of the things we report to the Commission. We would follow Dr Vosloo, because what he has given out to the country, that you have been bought by this amount of money, you were trained as the Kakana family, we have to follow and investigate about all this. We have to know whether it was the truth or a lie. If it is a lie, he has to come forward and say it. We thank you all. We hope that if we had a, if we are going to have a chance we will meet with the two families. We will now adjourn and we will meet tomorrow. We will start at nine o' clock tomorrow morning. Thank you.
