NTSIKELELO EDWARD MENTOOR: (Duly sworn in, states).
REV XUNDU: Thank you.
NODANILE GERTRUDE BAKAULI: (Duly sworn in, states).
REV XUNDU: Thank you.
KAYENI DERRICK "METRO" BAMBISO: (Duly sworn in, states).
REV XUNDU: Thank you. Mr Chairperson, they have been properly sworn in.
CHAIRPERSON: We welcome you. We will hand over to Ntsiki Sandi who will lead you with questions on behalf of the Commission.
ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Let us clarify one matter. When we were talking with you in the morning during a tea break you mentioned that you will choose one of you who will give us a background about what was happening in Bedford. All the things that are going to be mentioned today that were happening in Bedford, you are going to tell us in which conditions were these things happening. Who did you elect. Was it Ntsikelelo?
MR MENTOOR: Yes.
ADV SANDI: Mr Mentoor, briefly, in your statement you are going to tell us about what happened to you in 1986 when you were detained, you were tortured. There are also incidents that happened before that. Let us start with you giving us the background of what was happening in Bedford. Give us briefly, thank you.
MR MENTOOR: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Bedford is a small town surrounded by many farms. In Bedford the struggle for liberation started in schools. Students formed their organisations. This was also happening in the community where we formed organisations such as Bedford Community Organisations. In 1985 when Comrades like Matthew Goniwe and Comrade Stofile, they use to come to our area to tell us about what was happening in our country. The Comrades met and discussed about the ways of fighting the past Government. While we were still discussing this, Comrade Matthew was killed. Their bodies were found burnt in Greenwater Bay. Comrades got together after hearing this. We wanted to find ways to identify the killers. We decided to close down shops, consumer boycott. People are not supposed to go and buy in town. The trouble started. White people cried in town. They said that they were not gaining anything.
Police vans and Hippos would come to the township at night while we were sleeping as it was dark. We would wake up and we would see soldiers and they would come with their vehicles and light the township. In the morning you would wake up and see a soldier in front of your house with a gun. The whole township was surrounded by the soldiers. This made people to be angry. They boycotted the councillors. Everything that belonged to the Government was a threat or
an enemy to the people. We tried to bring back the dignity of the people and people saw beer hall and the police houses as enemy to the people. Comrades wanted to fight against anyone who was working for the Government. The police will shoot people and disperse teargas to old men and women. They would be taken to the hospital and small children, the beer hall was burnt down and everything that was seen to be part of the Government.
The situation was very bad because people did not know how to live, how to survive. We would hear gunshots all over and you would hear that certain people have been arrested and certain things have happened and the people who were connected to those who were working for the Government were also affected. There are cases where people who were buying in town, they will be dealt with and people would be arrested concerning such incidents. Things would happen in places such as Cookhouse and those things would give impact to our area in Bedford. That was the situation in Bedford at that time. People were fighting for their rights.
ADV SANDI: Thank you very much, Mr Mentoor, for giving us that picture of what was happening in Bedford. Let us now focus on you. You said that in 1985 under such circumstances you have just mentioned, you were arrested. What happened to you when you were detained? What reasons were given to you?
MR MENTOOR: We were on our way to Comrade Matthew's funeral. Our car broke on our way there and the police were on the road. We were delayed on our way to Cradock. We decided to go back home. In the morning, after the funeral, I saw a Hippo in front of my house. There were soldiers in that Hippo. They wanted me, they took me to the Hippo. I was on my way to work at that time. They took me to the soldier's truck. There were people from Adelaide, others were bleeding their nose. The soldiers were all over them. They were lying down. We were taken to the Bedford Police Station. We stayed there for three days. We were then transferred to St Albans in Port Elizabeth. We were not asked anything in St Albans Prison.
In August I was taken together with other Comrades from Adelaide by a combi. We were taken next to the sea and the police said that we were going to go to the sea and swim with the fish. We were taken to the top floor in St Albans and they separated us. I was together with Louis. Louis took other Comrades from Adelaide to another room. While I was still waiting there one black policeman from PE, Port Elizabeth came. He was a short guy. When I was explaining to the Comrades in Port Elizabeth they said it might be Vaku. I was taken to a toilet. There was a black drum filled with black water. They told me to take off my clothes. I asked them for what? They demanded that I take off my clothes. They told me to sit down, they poured this water over me. This was very painful to me. They told me to take, to wear my clothes and they took me upstairs to the room I was in.
When I arrived there I met Sam Gcali. After a while two policemen from Port Elizabeth came in. They said that is this the man who does not want to co-operate. They would kick me, they would strangle me, take my, they would take my hair and they would tell me to swallow my hair. This happened for a long time. They wanted to know my relationship with Matthew Goniwe and others. I told them that I just heard about Matthew Goniwe. I saw him in
Adelaide in one funeral. We were taken back to St Albans. I was not feeling well. I could not even eat. On the following day I asked them to take me to the doctor. The doctor weighed me and he told me that I lost weight, I lost five kilograms. The doctor asked me what was happening. I explained to him that I was being assaulted and tortured in prison. That may be the reason for my losing weight.
In November 1985 we were released. In May 1986 cars like a Nissan Skyline, combis and trucks, soldier's trucks came. I was at work at that time. I was working as a cashier at Bedford Hotel. Aubrey van Jaarsveld came. He said that he was going to, was picking me up, because I was wanted there. I was taken to the barracks where the police were. When I arrived there, there were white men there. They were huge white men. I did not know them, because they were not from Bedford. They asked me Comrade Matthew, my relationship with him. I told them that I knew Comrade Matthew, because he use to come to our area. At the time he was already dead. I told them that I also read about him in the newspapers. One of them beat me and my nose was bleeding. They gave me water to wash my face up.
Constable Maswili came. They gave him a list. They told him to write down what was written in the list to another paper. They told us to go with them. I asked them, where are you taking me? They said I must not ask questions. I was taken to this Nissan Skyline. Police, two policemen were with me in this car. One of them had a gun. I am not sure whether it was a R4 or R5. They pointed me with the guns in my back. One Skyline was in front of us and others were at the back. We went to an area, a building where jobs were created for people. Maswili was told to
point out the people who were written in the list. The people would be taken to the vans. The police were talking to each other through their radios. They were communicating with the police in other cars. They would say that Ntsikelelo is working with us today. Comrades would be taken by these police to the cars. They took us to the police station. The police argued with each other. Some were saying I must be released.
ADV SANDI: Excuse me, Mr Mentoor. In other words, you say that they were trying to say to people that you were there informer, you were working to them, together with them?
MR MENTOOR: Yes, because they knew that I was a member of the community organisation.
ADV SANDI: They wanted to create a gap between you and the people in the organisation.
MR MENTOOR: They said that I was going to be burnt or my house was going to be burnt that night.
ADV SANDI: When they were creating this gap between you and the community, was this a normal thing at that time?
MR MENTOOR: All the organisations in Bedford were under UDF. They were speaking one language, they were united.
ADV SANDI: In your statement you said that they were trying to portray you as a collaborator with them. What happened?
MR MENTOOR: The community was divided into two. Some of them were on my side, because they said that I am not capable of identifying people. Others were against me. They were accusing me of identifying other Comrades. They would come to my father at work telling him to take his clothes and his furniture out of the house, because there might be something that will happen in that house.
ADV SANDI: Let us now concentrate on what happened to your
body and what happened to you physically due to this torture.
MR MENTOOR: What happened to me is that I lost my memory. I also suffer from diabetes. My dignity in the community was also effected.
ADV SANDI: Did you receive any medical treatment?
MR MENTOOR: When I was in prison I was taken to a treatment in Livingstone.
ADV SANDI: And the time you went to Albany Council of Churches, what happened, what were you doing there.
MR MENTOOR: We were taken to a counselling there. The doctors were counselling us. They were trying to help us with our memory.
ADV SANDI: By being here today, Mr Mentoor, what is your request to the Commission?
MR MENTOOR: I would like the perpetrators to go to the people, to go to Bedford and talk to the people in Bedford. I want to regain my dignity, because they wanted the people to think that I was an informer. I would also like the Government to build a monument for all the people who were oppressed in this country so that we can see what the Truth and Reconciliation Commission is doing for us.
ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Mentoor. Is that all you want to say before we go to Mrs Bakauli and Mr Bambiso?
MR MENTOOR: My story is very long, Sir, because there are many things that happened to me and there are many things that I could not do, because I was taken to prison. I did not get a chance to support and to raise my children, because from 1976, 85, 86 and 88 I was detained all the time, transferred to all the prisons in South Africa. That is all, Sir.
ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Mentoor. Let us now go to Mrs Bakauli. Mrs Bakauli, you have heard what Mr Mentoor has already said in trying to give us a picture of what was happening in Bedford at that time. We are not going to ask you about that, but we will ask you to tell us about what happened to you. What year was this, was it in 1986?
MRS BAKAULI: Yes, it was 1986.
ADV SANDI: Please tell us, briefly Mam, what happened to you on this particular day in 1986 in Bedford.
MRS BAKAULI: In 1986 in Bedford the police came at night. Matiwane together with Rooibaard's son. They knocked at the door and they kicked the door. They told me that I was wanted in the police station. I was sleeping at that time. When I woke, I was trying to wake up, they took me. I was naked. They took me, they dragged me to the car. I was only wearing an underwear. They took me to the van. We went, he was just dragging me all around and pulling me. I tried to ask them what was happening, who called me. Yourself, Mr Rooibaard's son took me and he detained me. My children came in the morning with my clothes and they told my children that no clothes were allowed. If Mrs Pontsi was not there, Mrs Pontsi was from Cradock, I would stay there naked. Mrs Pontsi gave me her clothes because she had spare clothes.
We were taken then to Somerset. I was still wearing this woman's clothes. We were also taken to Waainet together with her. They did not allow me to bring my own clothes.
ADV SANDI: At the time of this incident were they looking for anyone?
MRS BAKAULI: They were looking for my sons.
ADV SANDI: Who are your son's name.
MRS BAKAULI: Vuya Mangaliswe and Dumsuma Dodo.
ADV SANDI: Did they get them?
MRS BAKAULI: Yes, they got them when they arrested me.
ADV SANDI: You were detained for how long?
MRS BAKAULI: I stayed there for six months. I was detained in June and I was released on the sixth of December.
ADV SANDI: What happened to you when you were in Waainek.
MRS BAKAULI: I was not well. Even today I get dizzy and I suffer from diabetes. Also suffer from back problems. The doctor use to come inside and to examine us.
ADV SANDI: Who was this doctor?
MRS BAKAULI: I do not know his name. He was a prison doctor. When I was released I went to Dr Bennet.
ADV SANDI: What happened to you after you were released in December? The police, did they come to you?
MRS BAKAULI: No, they did not.
ADV SANDI: Do you receive any medical treatment today?
MRS BAKAULI: Yes.
ADV SANDI: Where do you receive this?
MRS BAKAULI: From Dr Bennet for diabetes and high blood pressure and dizziness.
ADV SANDI: You go for treatment regularly?
MRS BAKAULI: Yes, I am supposed to go tomorrow for a check- up.
ADV SANDI: Is that all you want to say concerning your story?
MRS BAKAULI: Yes, these police treated me very badly.
ADV SANDI: Who are these?
MRS BAKAULI: Yourself and Matiwane.
ADV SANDI: Can you explain to me who is this yourself?
MRS BAKAULI: He is a short man, he is a white man, Rooibaard's son.
ADV SANDI: You mention that this yourself is Rooibaard's son. Who is Rooibaard?
MRS BAKAULI: He was also a policeman, but he passed away.
ADV SANDI: Was he a policeman in your area?
MRS BAKAULI: Yes.
ADV SANDI: What is your request, Mrs Bakauli, to the Commission? You mentioned about your health.
MRS BAKAULI: Yes, Sir.
ADV SANDI: Do you have a request to the Commission? You have mentioned that you are not well in your health. Are you satisfied by the treatment you are receiving from Dr Bennet?
MRS BAKAULI: Yes, I am. Even tomorrow I am going for a treatment.
ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mrs Bakauli. Let us now go to Mr Bambiso. Mr Bambiso, as I am looking at your statement, you are going to tell us about yourself, about what happened to you in 1986 in Bedford. You say that you were arrested, you were detained and you tortured.
MR BAMBISO: Yes, that is so.
ADV SANDI: I would like you, when you are telling us your story, to emphasise on different ways in which you were tortured at the time you were in prison, because this Commission is looking at how the people, who were arrested, how they were tortured in prison. I hand over to you now, Mr Bambiso.
MR BAMBISO: In 1986, it was on the 13th of July, there was something we wanted to do in the community. Due to the political situation and many Comrades were arrested at that
time. The political activities were deteriorating in the community. We gathered together as Comrades to discuss about the ways in which we can lift up political activities in Bedford. As we were this group of Comrades we wanted to get rid of the people who were known as the stumbling blocks. In other words, people who were informers. There were three ladies who were staying in Masikane area in Bedford. They were Rooibot Chain, Selina Lange and Thembeka Sikasi. They were together with the police. They were having affairs with the police.
We sent certain Comrades to go and call these ladies, because a decision was taken that we will deal with them. At that time it was half past four during the day. They came to hear what they were called for. We wanted to know about their position in the struggle in our community. They did not give us an answer. They told us they will shoot us. They would get guns from their boyfriends and shoot us. We must leave them alone. Because they answered the way they did we decided to burn them. We tried to organise things that we were going to use in order to burn these people. The police were phoned by certain people informing this.
ADV SANDI: Were you arrested after this?
MR BAMBISO: I was arrested the same night. This happened in the afternoon.
ADV SANDI: Let us now concentrate on the time you were arrested. What happened to you?
MR BAMBISO: Before I was arrested, because I was playing soccer. When I came back from a soccer practise, when I was on my way home my mother told me that the police are looking for me. I asked her what were they looking me for. She said that she did not know, but the police were looking for
me. I went to my grandmother's home, but I decided to leave because I felt that I was not safe. I went to my friends. It was at night, before nine. We were going to our homes to have supper. The police were all over the township. They were not in their police vans, they were just patrolling. When we came out of the house we met the police with their torch. They chased me, because we ran away when we saw that they were police. They said that here is Kayeni, we have been looking for him all over. I went to the Bongweni township, because it was dark I fell down and the police came and they picked me up and they assaulted me.
ADV SANDI: Were you hand-cuffed? Were you hand-cuffed at the time you were arrested?
MR BAMBISO: Yes, they hand-cuffed me at the time they were arresting me.
ADV SANDI: What did they do to you after they hand-cuffed you?
MR BAMBISO: They tortured me.
ADV SANDI: Please explain to us the ways in which they tortured you.
MR BAMBISO: Firstly, Mr Chairperson, it is very painful for me to say or to explain to you what was happening. They were kicking me. Even in the township before they took me to the van they were assaulting me, kicking me in the township and they took me to the police van, took me to town. They did not take me to the police station. There was a place which was used as a rent office in town in the BAAB offices. They took me there. It was quarter past nine at that time, because there was a watch there. From quarter past nine till quarter to three they were assaulting us. They would squeeze our private parts and they would close
them to a drawer. That is when I got injured.
ADV SANDI: When you say that you were being tortured and everything was done to you, what do you mean?
MR BAMBISO: There are many ways, there are many things they did to us. The police would take a cigarette to our noses and they would take needles and put them under our nails.
ADV SANDI: For how long did this last?
MR BAMBISO: We arrived in this building at quarter past nine and we were released at quarter to three in the morning when we were taken to the charge office.
ADV SANDI: Were you forced to make statements?
MR BAMBISO: On that night we were not asked anything. They were just telling us about what we were planning to do.
ADV SANDI: Were you injured in any way?
MR BAMBISO: Yes.
ADV SANDI: Please tell us how were you injured?
MR BAMBISO: I was injured in my private parts, because after all this my private parts were swollen up, because of the Boers.
ADV SANDI: Did you receive any medical treatment or are you receiving treatment now?
MR BAMBISO: I am not receiving any treatment.
ADV SANDI: By coming here, Mr Bambiso, do you have requests to the Commission.
MR BAMBISO: Please repeat your question.
ADV SANDI: What is your request to the Commission? What would you like the Commission to do for you?
MR BAMBISO: My request to the Commission is that I would like the Commission to bring the perpetrators to the community in Bedford to apologise to them. The reason for this is that I want to respect the President of this
country, because he said that we have to be united in this country. I do not want to revenge on what happened to me. What the President has already said, I agree with reconciliation.
ADV SANDI: If the perpetrators can come forward and apologise to the people in Bedford, according to your view, do you think that the people will accept their apology?
MR BAMBISO: I cannot answer that question, because it will depend on the people, but I will accept their apology.
ADV SANDI: Is that all, Mr Bambiso, before I hand over to the Chairperson and my colleagues to ask you questions?
MR BAMBISO: There is nothing more I can remember, because these things happened a long time ago and it was very painful at that time.
ADV SANDI: Thank you, thank you Mr Bambiso. Thank you Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: June Crichton.
MS CRICHTON: Mr Mentoor, please, could I just ask you. Mr Mentoor, have you got the, maybe you do not need, can you hear me?
MR MENTOOR: Yes.
MS CRICHTON: Good. Mr Mentoor, this is just something that I need to correct for the sake of the transcript for the recordings that are being taken. You said that when you were put under the showers, you actually said St Albans, but for correction it was at Louis le Grange, was it not?
MR MENTOOR: It was in Louis le Grange, not in a shower, but there was a drum with water and they were poured in my body in Louis le Grange.
MS CRICHTON: Thank you. It is just important that we have that correct and then one other thing that I need to ask
you. Your family have already paid a very heavy price in the resistance, but my question to you is, what is the situation now. They managed to divide you from the community, they divided the community because of what they did with you in trying to get you to look like an informer. What is the situation now? Is the community united?
MR MENTOOR: The community is united although there are certain people who are against the needs of the community at large. What I mean is there are people who, although they see that something is not true, but because they have their own intentions they tend to agree with what was happening, but what I can say is that the community is united.
MS CRICHTON: Thank you. Mr Chairman, I wanted to ask Mr.
CHAIRPERSON: Let us finish Mr Mentoor.
MS CRICHTON: Alright, okay.
CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions for Mr Mentoor? Mr Mentoor, just one question. The police who took you to the Skyline to the township, do you know their names?
MR MENTOOR: No, I do not know their names, because they are not from Bedford. They were not wearing uniforms, they were just wearing their private clothes.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know of any police in Bedford who can identify these police?
MR MENTOOR: Constable Maswili and Aubrey van Jaarsveld can be able to identify them.
CHAIRPERSON: Why do you think that these two policemen, Constable Maswili and van Jaarsveld can be able to identify them?
MR MENTOOR: Because they are police and these police were in Bedford police station together with them.
CHAIRPERSON: In other words, they were working with them?
MR MENTOOR: I can say so.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bambiso.
MS CRICHTON: Alright, you hear me.
MR BAMBISO: No, I am okay.
MS CRICHTON: Mr Bambiso, it seems that the security was so eager, it seems that security was very eager to torture and to assault, but when you received a suspended sentence, together with that suspended sentence you were also sentenced to five lashes. Now, I am just interested to know, did you receive those five lashes?
MR BAMBISO: Yes, I received these five lashes.
MS CRICHTON: You did receive them and then something quite different. Did you institute any kind of civil claim against the police?
MR BAMBISO: Yes.
MS CRICHTON: Who did you do that through, which Attorney?
MR BAMBISO: It was Mr Dulap.
MS CRICHTON: And was a settlement made?
MR BAMBISO: Up to now there is nothing.
MS CRICHTON: Are you requesting that the Commission look into that?
MR BAMBISO: Yes.
MS CRICHTON: Thank you, we have noted that. Thank you, Mr Bambiso.
MR BAMBISO: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sandi.
ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Bambiso, in your statement there are three incidents you mentioned. The first one you have already mentioned briefly and I would like you to explain and to clarify these three incidents. Firstly, in your statement you say that it is your wish that there should be reconciliation in this country. Secondly, you also mentioned that this country has to be developed. Thirdly, you say that crime, you say that there must not be crime in this country. Would you please explain these three facts to us, because I would like people from this hall to hear what you have to say.
MR BAMBISO: Firstly, the reason why I referred to reconciliation is that I know that if victims or people who were oppressed by the white people, if we want to revenge our country will not develop. It will not be the country that we would like South Africa to be, because if I can take a gun and go to town to revenge what happened to me, there will not be reconciliation, because our President is preaching peace in our country. I am supporting peace in this country. That is the reason why I stated these. I do not whether the Commission understands me clearly.
ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Bambiso. Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bambiso, you explained to us about your involvement in necklacing the three ladies in Bedford. You have told us what happened. You told us that you were involved in this incident. I have also noted that according, to your statement, you were charged and you were sentenced because of this incident. I want you to look back, maybe if you can, I want you to tell the Commission how you feel today when you look back at your plans for burning these three ladies. How do you feel today?
MR BAMBISO: When looking back, Mr Chairperson, firstly, I would like the Commission, on my behalf, to ask forgiveness for the victims, although I was forced by the political situation to act the way I did. I want them to forgive me
about the plan that I made although I was sentenced.
CHAIRPERSON: Are there any things, according to your view, that can be done in the new South Africa?
MR BAMBISO: We do not want to see what happened in those years. Some one would be burned and people would sing surrounding this person.
CHAIRPERSON: As you referred to the plans that are to be made in order to reconcile and develop this country, what advice would you say?
MR BAMBISO: What I would like to say is that people are to be united and work together to build this country.
CHAIRPERSON: What is the situation between yourself and the families of the victims? Is there peace between you?
MR BAMBISO: Yes, there is peace between us.
CHAIRPERSON: You say that you would like the perpetrators, you would like them to go to the community to apologise. Let us say these people are not going to go to the community, they do not see a need for them to go to that community, but they will go to the Amnesty Committee to apply for amnesty. Do you think this will bring peace between yourself and the perpetrators?
MR BAMBISO: Firstly, if they go to the Amnesty Committee to apologise, if they can reveal everything as I have revealed today, I would be satisfied, because I trust the people, the panel of the Amnesty Committee. If they apologise to them it would be the same as going to my community to apologise.
CHAIRPERSON: We thank the three of you for your testimonies. It is a painful testimony especially to you, Mrs Bakauli. What happened to you Mr Mentoor and Mr Bambiso is also painful, but what happened to women is not what is supposed to happen. A woman at your age taken out of your
house, being naked or wearing only an underwear, taken to prison and staying there with policemen for a long time. This shows that people were not human, they were animals. Mrs Bakauli is not a young lady. We have her picture, her dignity was effected. These people would not come to you and apologise, but on behalf of them, as a Commission, we would like to apologise to you. We feel ashamed that we are part of people in South Africa and there are people, these are people, these are South African people who did this to you. We are not saying that these things have to be done to men, but we are extra sensitive to women. We thank the three of you and we thank the evidence from Bedford. We will adjourn for lunch for one hour.
