Human Rights Violation Hearings

CHAIRPERSON

This is our next witness, Joan Mantombi King. Please come up.

JOAN MANTOMBI KING Duly sworn states

CHAIRPERSON

That is David, David Motlale. Mr David Motlale are you also going to speak in English?

MR MOTLALE

I’ll speak Tswana.

DAVID MOTLALE Duly sworn states

CHAIRPERSON

In telling your story you will be assisted by Denzil Potgieter.

ADV POTGIETER

Thank you Chairperson. Good afternoon Ms King and Mr Motlale.

MS KING

Good afternoon.

ADV POTGIETER

Welcome here. Your case relates to the death of your husband?

MS KING

Yes.

ADV POTGIETER

In December of 1976.

MS KING

Yes.

ADV POTGIETER

Under circumstances which my colleague Mr Ntsebeza next to me here has earlier so eloquently sketched. In fact the man we heard looks like Mr Barnard, but your story in fact deals with a different level of that situation and that was the conflict between the migrant hostel people.

MS KING

Yes.

ADV POTGIETER

Who were also referred to as "wit doeke"?

MS KING

Yes.

ADV POTGIETER

And they were permanent residents of Guguletu and Nyanga?

MS KING

Yes.

ADV POTGIETER

Now you were married, is it correct, to - during his lifetime- to Henry Kwisomba?

MS KING

Yes, I was.

ADV POTGIETER

Are there children born of that marriage?

MS KING

Yes, I had three children.

ADV POTGIETER

Three children?

MS KING

Yes.

ADV POTGIETER

Can you give us their ages and their, their sex- the gender?

MS KING

At the time of his death my daughter Smongile, sitting there, she was 10 years old.

ADV POTGIETER

Take your time Ms King.

MS KING

And my son Boldwin was 8 years old and my baby Victor he was 18 months old.

ADV POTGIETER

And is it correct that you were living in Guguletu at that time?

MS KING

Yes.

ADV POTGIETER

Now what was the situation like in Guguletu towards the end of 1976?

MS KING

There were always a lot of problems because there was a lot of shooting going on at that time. There were problems with the students, and when you come home from work then you always wonder where the children are, because I don’t know whether the children, they always are attracted to places where there are problems. I suppose I don’t know.

Then you must always run down the streets and look for your children. So then as it was nearing the December holidays, we decided that I would take a break with the children and go to my mom’s family up in Harrismith. So I left a week before Christmas and I came back on the 6th of January 1977.

ADV POTGIETER

So you left (I am sorry to interrupt you), you left with the children?

MS KING

Yes I left with the children.

ADV POTGIETER

And your husband what happened to him?

MS KING

And he stayed behind and - in the house.

ADV POTGIETER

At the home in Guguletu?

MS KING

Yes.

ADV POTGIETER

And you say that you only returned in the new year.

MS KING

Yes.

ADV POTGIETER

Of 1977?

MS KING

Yes.

ADV POTGIETER

And then what - what happened?

MS KING

I remember on coming back that day, it was on the 6th of January, and as we went into Bellville( I had R1,00 in my pocket) and there was a boy selling newspapers on the corner. And as this car was standing at the robots, I still wanted to buy this newspaper, the Cape Times.

And then I checked myself again and I said," Bongi" (that is my daughter), I said to her: " I am going to keep this R1,00. I am not going to buy this paper after all ,in case when we get home there is no bread. Then I can buy you some bread with this R1,00."

And then we went home, and only when we got home I found my younger sister there who stays out in Hammanskraal now. Then when she saw me, she sort of got a shock. I don’t think that they were expecting me home that day, because I went up with a lift and came back home again with a lift.

And then she said, "Ooh! I don’t know where the aunties are of the street". I said," Why?" And then she said, "No, they said when you get home I must call them so they could be here when you get home". I said, "Now, what is wrong?" So - no, then she ran out and then she came back with these people and then it was only then that I heard that my husband was missing since the 26th of December. This was now the 6th of January and nobody knew where he was and… and they’d been looking all over for him and they couldn’t find him in the mortuaries, in the hospitals… and that was that.

And then I remember later that evening my mother-in-law came with my brother-in-law Les, and they had the same newspaper that I nearly bought in Bellville and my husband’s picture was in the front page of that newspaper.

ADV POTGIETER

That was the paper of the 6th, the same day that you returned?

MS KING

Of January ,yes… 1977.

ADV POTGIETER

And did the newspaper write about your husband?

MS KING

Yes, that he was missing from the - from Boxing Day and because there was faction fighting with migrant labourers and we used to call them the "wit doeke" and he just got missing and they didn’t know whether - his brother put it in the paper. And they don’t know where he is and they’ve looked all over for him and - and in the paper, I think, they said that the police said there weren’t any shootings in NY78 that evening. The shootings were only in Nyanga, but he was shot at in Guguletu …in NY78 as I heard.

ADV POTGIETER

Now that was on the 6th - it was the very day that you came home?

MS KING

Yes.

ADV POTGIETER

And you then found the situation where the husband is missing and nobody could assist. Nobody could tell you what happened. What did you then do?

MS KING

I went to a neighbour, another neighbour, aunty Mary, because she used to go to church with us. Her sister-in-law was there from Johannesburg. And [intervention]

ADV POTGIETER

It’s in order Ms King, you can take your time. Are you okay to carry on?

MS KING

I remember when I went there and it was just a few doors away from my house. And her sister-in-law was down from Johannesburg and, when they saw me, they were also surprised to see me. And then they said a little prayer while I was there and they said I must go out the following day and go look for my husband.

And I remember that evening I still took my children - I remember when we went to sleep then I prayed again with the children and we all slept in one bed. And the following morning a friend of Henry’s came (his name was Martin) and another one (he used to work for a funeral undertaker). And another friend and, I think, one of his brothers. Then we went looking for Henry.

And, I don’t know… we were driving towards Claremont. Because now we - because as they said they were - they looked all over and they couldn’t find him. And now we thought, okay, we might just go and look for him in… in Wynberg. First at the hospital there and come back from Wynberg doing Cape Town and so on. And while we were in Claremont we changed our minds and we said, okay, let’s rather go to Groote Schuur Hospital. And on our way there, as we passed the mortuary, we decided to go to the Salt River mortuary before going to the hospital.

And when we parked the car, this white chap who worked at the mortuary… I remember him saying to Martin (this friend who was driving me there)… he said to him:" Man hier lê ‘n man wat nes soos jy lyk ek het gedink dis jy". There was something wrong because the whole time I thought, okay, I don’t think that he could be dead. Maybe he could of skipped the country, or whatever…you know.

And it was only then (because Henry and Martin they were supporting those Afro hairstyles at that time they looked, you could have thought they were brothers) and so, really, we went in and they pushed him on a trolley in the passage there. And there was a glass - a partition- a glass partition. And then I saw him, but I said, "But he looks very funny you know".

And it’s only when I looked again that I saw why he looked funny. And then we went home and on coming home I sent Martin and them to our parish priest (whom I see is here also) Father Dick, to go and tell my mother-in-law what happened, because I stayed behind in the house with the children. Then the people came in and then my mother-in-law come up later that evening to be with me.

ADV POTGIETER

Did you try to find out what possible could of happened to your husband?

MS KING

We were trying to find out but at that time the people was scared to come forward and state publicly that they saw what happened. Because they were scared that they either might vanish into thin air or they might be pushed out of their houses, kicked out of the houses or they might even be killed. So, whoever knew, they never wanted to say anything about it. Because he wasn’t alone that night when this happened.

ADV POTGIETER

So you could never really find out exactly what - what happened?

MS KING

No, it’s only now. [intervention]

ADV POTGIETER

Until very recently.

MS KING

Yes, only now recently, ja.

ADV POTGIETER

Now was your husband involved in politics? What kind of person was he?

MS KING

He was a very happy person. He used to like life a lot, because I remember, he used to like listening to jazz. And he used to play the trumpet. And he was also a drama student at the Gwezi Centre so whenever there were plays and so on, with Mavis Taylor and them, they always used to go there. And afterwards they used to come to my house and have a cup of tea or whatever, you know. And there were always people coming in and out. He was a happy person.

ADV POTGIETER

A sociable kind of person?

MS KING

Very… very.

ADV POTGIETER

Would you call him a political activist or what? How would you describe him on that level?

MS KING

I don’t really think that he belonged to any party as far as I know, but he was very aware. Because they used to sit around and discuss politics in my house.

ADV POTGIETER

Now, subsequently, there was an inquest which you actually attended. Is that correct?

MS KING

Yes.

ADV POTGIETER

What happened there?

MS KING

I remember that I still went with my mother-in-law. And then it was just said that the cause of death was that he was hit with a blunt instrument on the head and as he fell, he had a graze wound on the left side of his face and his eye. I can’t remember what they said

now about the wound on the chest. And there was no-one too - that they could charge for killing him… they didn’t know who killed him.

ADV POTGIETER

There was a - there was a lawyer that actually represented the family at that inquest. Is that correct?

MS KING

Yes.

ADV POTGIETER

And did she make any remarks about the findings of the inquest?

MS KING

Yes, afterwards, when we went outside. And then she called us and she said: "they were reading you the statement from the State Pathologist. They didn’t read you the other one. There were two statements there. The other one was from the doctor at Groote Schuur Hospital because he was the first victim to come in on the 27th. And so the statements weren’t the same. The doctor’s statement was that he was shot at close range in his head and he was - his eye was blown away. But they said there that he fell and he had a graze wound here".

ADV POTGIETER

And is it correct that, that second version of the Groote Schuur Hospital doctor that actually coincided with what you heard recently, actually happened?

MS KING

That he was shot, yes.

ADV POTGIETER

Now - well we’ve got the witness here and we’ll deal with that, so it isn’t necessary for you to actually deal with the detail.

MS KING

Yes.

ADV POTGIETER

At the time in ’76, was your husband the sole breadwinner in the family? Was he the person that worked for your family?

MS KING

Yes, he was- yes.

ADV POTGIETER

And what - what was your circumstances - your husband has suddenly died?

MS KING

Died.

ADV POTGIETER

And you were left with the three young children.

MS KING

It was very hard. It was very, very hard, because as Ms Mia said earlier on, I used to work like she did. Get up at four, catch a train at five, be at work at six o’clock. Then you work for two hours there. From there, then, you go and work as a domestic worker. That is how I used to live, coming late at night.

ADV POTGIETER

You were doing - doing more than one - one job?

MS KING

Yes.

ADV POTGIETER

At the same time really?

MS KING

Yes… yes.

ADV POTGIETER

And did you then actually raise the children?

MS KING

Yes, I did.

ADV POTGIETER

And you worked for the family?

MS KING

Yes.

ADV POTGIETER

Is there anything else that you want to add to the - to the testimony?

MS KING

I don’t think so at the present moment, thank you.

ADV POTGIETER

What is there that you feel the Commission can do to assist?

MS KING

I would really like to know what really happened to Henry and apart from that also, if at all (like somebody said in the Eastern Cape) if there could be like a memorial or whatever with the plague with people’s names on it, I would really like to see that. Because I feel I owe that to my children, that they should know how their father died and that their father was a hero.

ADV POTGIETER

Now you could never yourself follow up those two conflicting versions of what actually happened whether it was a injury to the head or whether it was a gunshot injury?

MS KING

Yes.

ADV POTGIETER

I assume you would - you would like the Commission to follow that up if it’s possible?

MS KING

Yes please.

ADV POTGIETER

If you can still remember who was the lawyer that acted for the family?

MS KING

I honestly don’t know. I don’t even know who appointed her, because we just found her there that day.

ADV POTGIETER

Okay.

MS KING

And then when you are nervous and all this and that, you just don’t know what is going on around you.

ADV POTGIETER

Typical lawyer.

MS KING

But it was a white girlie.

ADV POTGIETER

Okay, thank you Ms King.

MS KING

Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON

Thank you very much, any additional questions?

UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER

It’s not really a question Joan. It’s more or less a comment about what you said. Because you are not only dealing with the facts about the loss of your husband, but also the memory of your pain when you discovered that you had lost him. What strikes me… we’ve not just your experiences but the experiences of many other women before you… is how you seem to do a lot of running around, moving from place to place. Not really knowing where to find your loved one, whether it is your son, or your husband. I find that very hard to deal with and I wonder how you - you dealt with it. How you - how you went through this driving from place to place not knowing whether to look for him at a mortuary or at a hospital… not knowing whether in fact he was missing or what happened to him. What was it like? What was it like just moving around not knowing what… where to look?

MS KING

Actually I didn’t do the moving around, looking for him because, at that time I wasn’t back from holiday. That was my brother-in-law and my mother-in-law. So I only went the day after his picture was in the paper and then, suddenly, there I found him, whereas they couldn’t find him.

UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER

Thank you.

MS SOOKA

Ms King you have two children?

MS KING

I’ve got - I had three. I’ve got two now. The one died.

MS SOOKA

How old are they?

MS KING

My daughter is now - she is now 30.

MS SOOKA

30.

MS KING

Yes and my son is 28.

MS SOOKA

Okay, thank you. Now I was trying to determine how old her children were.

MS KING

Okay.

MS SOOKA

Thank you.

MS KING

Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON

Thank you very much, we will now hand over to Mr Potgieter to facilitate Mr David.

ADV POTGIETER

Mr Motlale can you…hear? You were a friend of Henry Kwisomba the deceased in this incident is that correct?

MR MOTLALE

Yes.

CHAIRPERSON

Can you - can you please just get a little closer to the microphone? Thank you.

ADV POTGIETER

Oh! Yes, you - okay we’re back on track. You in fact were with the deceased in late December ’76 when he actually died. Is that correct?

MR MOTLALE

Yes, that’s so.

ADV POTGIETER

We are connected, thank you. Just briefly [indistinct] happening what was the situation like - it was 26/27 December 1976 in Guguletu. What was happening?

MR MOTLALE

It was Boxing Day in 1976, and it was late, I think. Ja, and… it was dark on that day and I was in the house at NY50 no 6. While I was in the house, I heard a loud sound, a loud noise coming from outside. It sounded like people. I heard that the people outside were making this noise. I heard a loud banging on the door. Somebody was knocking.

When I opened the door, somebody said, "You’re still opening the door, let’s go". And we - and we found that it was the late Henry. I asked, "Where are we going?". I was told, "Let’s go to - to the battle". We were told that everybody must just go. All young men must go. It’s only women and old men that must be left behind.

We were all told to go to the battle. We were told that we should go and block NY78 because we were told that the " wit doek" people would be coming from Section 4. They were coming to Guguletu and they were going to destroy all of us here at Gucks. So we were now about to protect ourselves. We went to - through NY57. Before we could come to the corner of NY54, we saw this car coming, but we couldn’t - we couldn’t see how many people were inside.

One of us saw one of these people and when this car got to the corner, he went to these people and he asked, "What is going on now?". It turned out to be the police who were in this car. They said, "Oh, no! We are not here to fight. We are just here to protect you, because we know that there are people who are coming to beat you.

Now this is why we are here to protect you". And then they said, "Is that true?". We said, "Yes". Then they said, "Okay, it’s all right". So they went through NY78. We came through 78. Now, we were about to block the road just to see, now, from where these people were going to approach us. Now, while we were still standing there, when we looked further down there at NY78, we could see that there was a car coming. It’s lights and everything were on. We could see that the car was coming. Just in front of this car there was a Valiant, a red Valiant.

This Valiant was leading. Now, we were also a big group and in front of us there was the youth [indistinct] shouted and they said, "There is a car coming over there". But we told ourselves that we were not there to fight. We were not going to fight with the police at all. We just wanted to find out about these people who wanted to come and beat us up. We wanted to find out, really, what was going to happen.

We were not even - we were not armed on that day, because our - our children just took us out of our houses. So we didn’t even have a chance. Somebody said, "no,no… don’t run away. Don’t run away… aah, don’t run away, you kidding!". When they came closer, they just came - they came right at the centre, they actually spread us out so that they could be able to see us from all angles.

While we were…watching all that, and we were just waiting for the [indistinct] to come and approach us, the [indistinct] was saying quite a lot that they switched off the lights. end of Tape 11, side B … … All this time we were… Henry, what happened, I think, is that I just left him just for a short distance. The shots were going on during this whole period. I heard him saying, "Hey, they shot me".

While I was trying to look at him, I just wanted to find out what was going on, when I saw this. I could not stand it and so I ran. Now, while I was running, I didn’t know who was running behind my back. I could - I could see that I was not alone. There was somebody chasing me, but I just told myself I was going to run. I was not going to get a chance to look at him. I saw this fence in front of me and I jumped over it. My persuer also jumped over this fence and then I saw an old-old truck. I think it’s still there, that truck, and there were also dogs in the same yard.

When these dogs were barking, we went under the truck. And we looked - we looked at the gate and then we thought the best thing is to go through the gate. I looked back. I saw this person who was running behind me. It was my elder brother. I said, "Hey, brother. Hey, let’s go. Let’s run". There was no time to catch our breath. We saw "boers" coming. I could only see their feet. I heard one saying, "Where are the stupid people?". He said - I can’t remember the name that he called- "They went through that gate", and there was another car coming over to pick them up on that side.

My elder brother said to me,"Just wait - just wait-wait-wait. You go your way, I’ll go my way. I’ll meet you at the house. Now, we were just trying to survive. And that’s how we did this. From there we split. I ran further alongside the fence.

While I was running, I thought we were in a big mess. I didn’t even know what was going on there. I was very scared. I didn’t know what was happening because Henry came to wake me up. I wasn’t even sure what was going on then. He told me that somebody had been shot. The following morning I didn’t even have an idea that somebody had been shot. I didn’t even know anything about Henry. There were other people checking other people out. And I just - and I just thought these people who were shooting other people were there among us. I couldn’t say anything to anybody, to anyone. I didn’t trust anyone. So, I just kept quiet. I was not going to say anything. What was in my mind was that these boers were torturing us.

There were so many things that happened to me in the past, the first time was in Bloemfontein, but now in Cape Town it’s getting worse. Even now I am speaking Afrikaans sometimes. I understand it these days. I couldn’t tell this poor woman next to me what happened to her husband. I simply couldn’t tell her, I saw - I saw the sadness in their - in the children’s eyes, but I couldn’t tell them anything still.

Her husband was my best friend. We were together in the Drummer School at Santos. I was in the sports - we were doing boxing together. We were never worried too much about politics. That’s the time, now ,I thought… if she wants to know about her husband, she has to do it herself. Even now, for me to be here, I didn’t wish to be here. After 20 years of not getting information, I don’t know what to do and I don’t want anything.

ADV POTGIETER

Well, we are grateful that you are here and that you are telling us what happened, what you - what you know. Just - just one or two questions to clarify what you had said. Mr Motlale. After you heard Henry saying that he was shot, you didn’t see him again is that correct?

MR MOTLALE

I wanted to go and see where he was shot, but there were boers all over. [indistinct] I thought no, I could never be able to stand this. I thought, ag, we’ll see each other somewhere ahead. What were this called - they were pellets. Many people got hurt there, they really got injured in those 1978 riots. There were too many of them.

But now I am actually surprised that it is only Masomba that we are talking about here. There were so many people there at Guguletu. Even the people that we are talking about here we’ll never see again and even the people who hurt our people, who killed our people… there is nothing that we are going to do to them. I didn’t even know these boers- especially those who were riding that red Valiant.

Though - even if they could show me in my dreams… No, but I know that there is something that I have to do. Thank you.

ADV POTGIETER

Thank you Mr Motlale, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON

Thank you. Any - any questions? No. Mr David, thank you. Ms King, Pumla mentioned something that has struck me about the testimony today which is this exquisite cruelty in not telling people what have happened.

I don’t think it would ease the pain, but it certainly seemed to increase the pain to have to go from pillar to post, to go to police stations and hospitals and mortuaries. It is important for us to take in this pain, all of us, and try to commit ourselves that we want to see a country where these things will never happen.

Because whatever we may say about the people who committed atrocities (and we know that atrocities were committed on all sides of the struggle), we can keep remembering that they too, are God’s children. And that we - we need to keep reminding ourselves we do belong in one family. And to help those who lost their humanity to recover their old. Again, we just want to say thank you and hope that the response of people here, the response of the people who hear your story in other parts of our country, such as the response we - we saw from this dominee whose letter - part of his letter I read this morning, that, that response somehow will strengthen you and give you comfort. Thank you.