CHAIRPERSON: Before I start I should introduce again the panel here. Hlengiwe Mkhize on my extreme left, Commissioner, Chairperson of the Reparations and Rehabilitation Committee based in Gauteng. Hugh Lewin, Committee member Human Rights Violations Committee in this province, Wynand Malan, Commissioner Deputy Chairperson of the Human Rights Violations Committee and he's based here in Gauteng. Faizel Randera, Commissioner member of the Human Rights Violations Committee and also coordinator of our regional office here. We have four regional offices and he heads up the regional office here in Gauteng. Alex Boraine, Deputy Chair of the Commission, member of the Human Rights Violations Committee, Yasmin Sooka, Commissioner and the other Deputy Chairperson of the Human Rights Violations Committee, Joyce Seroke, Committee member of the Human Rights Violations Committee, Johannesburg, Russel Ally Human Rights Violations Committee member of this region and Ntsiki Sandi Committee member Human Rights Violations Committee in the Eastern Cape. I think I am covered for the moment. I hand over to Dr Alex Boraine.
DR BORAINE: Thank you Chairperson. Before we proceed I will ask Dr Randera to read out the names of the witnesses who will appear to day.
DR RANDERA: Today we again have ten people. I would like JOHANNESBURG HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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to apologise in the beginning two of the witnesses will be late so we are rearranging the programme and Mr Jassat will be starting as the first witness. I will go through as on your programme.
We have as a witness this morning Mr George Oliphant who is talking on behalf of his brother Benjamin Oliphant who was killed.
Mr Petrus Botha will be talking for himself. He was injured in a bomb blast.
Mr Abdulhay Jassat who will also be talking on behalf of himself and he was tortured whilst in detention.
Nombulelo Makhubu who will be talking about the disappearance of Mbuyisa Makhubu.
Liz Floyd will be talking about Dr Neil Agget who died in detention.
Cornish M Makhanya talking of himself. This was a case of torture.
Hester Grobelaar talking about Johannes J Grobelaar who died.
Priscilla T Gama will be talking about the torture and death of Nkosinathi Gama.
Philip Mazuza and Jabulani Lukhele. ...(intervention)
DR BORAINE: ....that we call today on the third session of the hearings of the Commission, Abdulhay Jassat. Good morning Mr Jassat. I would like to welcome you on behalf of the Chairperson and the Commission. We are very grateful that you have come, it's not an easy thing to do and never easy to talk about matters which affected you and still do affect you very deeply physically, mentally and emotionally and we need to hear from you and so many others like you throughout the country if we are going to fulfil the mandate JOHANNESBURG HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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of the Commission. Thank you very, very much indeed for coming. I am sorry that you are coming in first, you were supposed to be only third but I am grateful to you for your cooperation.
I have to ask you please to stand and take the oath.
ABDULHAY JASSAT: (sworn states)
DR BORAINE: In a moment I am going to ask Dr Randera if he will guide you as you tell your story. Suffice me to say that we have listened in East London and in Cape Town, now again in Gauteng of people who have been tortured and who have had very bitter experiences of imprisonment and you join that group in your own testimony today. I thank you again for coming and I hope you will feel as relaxed as it is possible to feel under these circumstances and I will ask Dr Randera to take over from me. Thank you.
DR RANDERA: Welcome. Before I ask you can I just make one announcement about the interpretation services for those people who want to use it. The box has numbered on it on the left-hand side 1, 2, 3 and the languages that we are interpreting into are Afrikaans on 1, English on 2 and Sotho or Zulu on 3. So please feel free to use these boxes. If anybody does not have one please put your hands up we may be able to help you if there are any boxes free. Thank you.
Abdulhay you have come to tell us about your detention in the sixties. This was a period when some of the most draconian laws were passed in South African history and I just want to give some background to that.
The General Law Amendment Act 37 of 1963 provided for 90 day detention. This Act came into force on the 1st of May 1963. Legislation was introduced in order to crush the ANC and PAC. It provided for a detainee to be held in
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custody for interrogation until in the opinion of the Commissioner of Police he had satisfactorily answered all questions. The detention could be renewed if the detainee had not answered all questions satisfactorily.
Provision was made for visits each week by a magistrate although detainees were not permitted access to their lawyers or any other visitors. From the 1st of May when this Act came into effect to 7th of November 1963 544 persons had been held without trial according to a statement by the Minister of Justice.
It's also been recorded that from the inception of security legislation in the early sixties there were allegations of physical and psychological abuse of detainees. Many detainees were held in solitary confinement although some received visitors. Many detainees were denied books other than the Bible and most were refused writing materials. There were rumours of physical ill-treatment of Black detainees such as the use of electric shock. When this was queried by Helen Suzman the Minister of Justice assured her that he would investigate any cases brought to his attention and had already instituted one enquiry.
Abdulhay this is your time, if you will take as long as you want to tell the story that you are going to recall and this happened almost 30 years ago, more than 30 years ago, so please take your time.
MR JASSAT: Firstly I would like to thank the Commission for giving me this opportunity which I've never had to actually let people know what detainees and people who were arrested during the sixties, in particular, went through. I'd like to start by - I won't go back to my youth, I'd like to start with the period during the emergency when a whole
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lot of us were arrested and detained for approximately six months without any charge, without any trial. This of course as everyone is aware led to the banning of the ANC at that time.
Upon our release when the ANC - incidentally I may go back and forth, you will have to excuse me because I haven't prepared anything. Prior to the emergency I was a member of the Indian Youth Congress and the Transvaal Indian Congress both of which were passive organisations. When the ANC was banned and Umkhonto was founded I felt it was my duty to play a role within that organisation. I joined Umkhonto weSizwe but there were specific rules and regulations which we had to adhere to, namely that we were not to take life at any stage, or not to get involved in any activity which would involve the taking of life or killing of people. We continued with that on that basis.
We worked, we blew up little pylons, we were really amateurs at that stage, we didn't know very much about explosive and things, we blew up post offices, a few transformers, various things of that nature. One of the important things I felt which I did was the blowing up of Nana Sita's (?) house, a house which had been allocated to him in Laudium. Nana Sita was also a Gandhi and a pacifist, he was an elderly man, he played an active role throughout his life. At that stage he must have been about 70 years old. He lived in a place called Hercules in Pretoria and they wanted him to move from there forcibly to Laudium, and every time he refused he was taken to court, charged and jailed. And a few colleagues and myself we felt that it was our duty to either do away with the house, blow it up. So that was one of the acts that I was involved in besides
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others, but that I think was an important act because then they could not move Nana Sita. He had been to prison three times already. They couldn't move him from his house in Hercules and his shop in Hercules to Laudium.
Just before Easter in 1963 I was in bed when there was a thumping at the door. I got up and about 12 bulky Afrikaners walked into the house. They made me dress and they took me away. At that stage I didn't know what it was for. They took me to Marshall Square in Johannesburg which was a police station and there I saw a colleague of mine who was also a member of Umkhonto weSizwe, Isoo Chiba in the corridors, he was waiting in the corridors. The police left the two of us in the corridor. While we were there we could hear screaming in one of the cells. So while I waited outside Isoo went into the cell to see who was screaming and he found that Reggie Vandeyar, Shirish Nanabhai, Indris Naidoo had been badly beaten up and they were lying in agony and pain in a small cell.
I subsequently learned that apparently the group that Reggie, Shirish and Indris were involved in had an informer with them, a chap called - the name will come to me soon. He took them to somewhere near Langlaagte and told them that they were going to blow up a railway signal box. He took them in his own car and he told the three of them to keep watch while he went across the fence and lit the dynamite and set the fuse. Apparently this box was an empty box, the whole thing was a trap. ....(tape ends) ....without food, without any treatment for the three colleagues who were beaten up and shot.
At about 6:30, I am not certain who it was, but I think it was Reggie Vandeyar was taken out of the room and taken
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away. He was brought back about ten minutes later and I thought it was just routine questioning. They then asked me to go with - one of the policemen asked me to accompany him and I did and I thought it was a similar situation where they would ask me some questions and then that would be it. I would be allowed to go. They took me into a fairly large office which was on the third floor. We were on the third floor of a building at Park Station. I went and stood in front of a desk. There were about four bulky policemen in uniforms, some were in overalls and they asked me to sit down in front of them, in the chair, which I did. They started asking me about Umkhonto weSizwe, they wanted to know where I got my instructions from, what I had been involved in and various things of that nature. Of course I denied all knowledge of Umkhonto weSizwe or any activity in Umkhonto weSizwe.
After about ten minutes of questioning they asked me to stand up, which I did. They moved the chair away from behind me and the next thing a hessian bag was put over my head and it was covering my head and tied at my knees. I still didn't realise what exactly was happening because at that stage one had not heard of torture or anything of that nature having happened.
They then lay me on the floor and I couldn't see the faces because of the hessian bag. I couldn't recognise the people exactly. But then they started removing my - untying my shoes, shoelaces and removing my socks and I could feel them fiddling around with my big toes. I tried to get up to see, even though the hessian bag was over my head, and the next thing I just knew a boot coming onto my chest and I was pushed back again.
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Then I was told I had better start talking otherwise they were going to give me electric shock treatment. Through the hessian bag I said I knew nothing. They then told me that they were going to start, did I think 20 volts, I can't remember the exact details because it's quite a long time ago, it's about 33 years ago. They told me that they would start at 20 volts and they would increase it until I spoke. They started with 20 volts and the electricity - apparently they had a dynamo, some type of motor which they used manually and they would set the voltage on that meter.
They would torture for about - one has no concept of time actually but for about 30 seconds to a minute. Then they would stop, ask you a question, when you refused to answer they would say we are increasing it from 20 to 50 volts. That went on until eventually they went up to 220 or 225 volts. Then they untied the electrodes from my toes and they lifted me up, removed the hessian bag and they told me to stand on the floor without touching anything. I wasn't able to stand. My body was completely stiff so I tried to lean against the table, and when I did that they came with a ruler or some instrument and just rapped me on my knuckles. Somehow or other I managed to stand.
The one thing that stands out particularly was during the period they were asking questions while they were torturing me, while they were using the electric shock treatment, they would ask specific questions like, if you give us one name we'll let you go and the thought goes through your mind that perhaps if I gave a fictitious name they may let me go. But then it also occurs to you that even if you give a fictitious name they will come back to you and they will do it again to you. Even if you gave them JOHANNESBURG HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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a name of a person who was involved in the movement, not particularly in MK it would be a snowballing effect. There would be no end to it and thus I decided not to give any names whatsoever.
When they made me stand up and I couldn't, eventually I managed to stand, force myself to stand without any aid, they then took some pencils and various objects from the desk and put it between my fingers on either side and they pressed my fingers till there was blood actually oozing out from between my fingers. I don't think I've mentioned some of these things in the statement. I'm just trying to think....
After that whilst continuing to question me they asked me if I wanted to escape and I wasn't able to speak, I just shook my head. There were one of the policemen said that he'd give me half a crown if I escaped. I shook my head again and then he threw the half a crown on the floor and he said you put your thumb onto the half a crown and you move around in a circle. Eventually I was crawling on the floor because I couldn't move any further.
They then stopped me from doing that and they took me to the window, they said go to that window and jump. They had fairly large windows, about a metre by - one metre by one metre wide and it was a louvre window. Besides you know in the interim they had beaten me up as well. They put two chairs on either side of the louvre window and two policemen got on - one policeman got on either chair and they dragged me to the window, and then they said you can now jump. I said I refuse. They dragged me by my shoulders and lifted me physically up and pushed my head out of the window. They were holding me by my ankles, each policeman holding one
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ankle. All I could see was a concrete floor at the bottom. We were three floors up and they would continue asking me questions and all of a sudden one of them would let go of one foot. And while - as he's about to catch my foot, the one that he had released, the other chap let go, and they played like that, and you know you thought God, this is the end, because there is no way you can get out of it. If one of them had missed I would have been dead.
Now this is an important factor because I think when they said for example that Babla Saloojee jumped from the window I think it's a lie. Babla Saloojee was supposed to have jumped from the sixth floor of Greys Building at that time and jumped on to a parapet, falling on the parapet which was barely a metre wide. Now if you jumped from the sixth floor you would fall onto the road or onto the pavement, not onto the parapet. Babla's body was actually
on that parapet. That means they must have done the same thing to him. I think they did the same thing to Timol at John Vorster Square where he too fell from the tenth floor. I don't think any sane person, when there are 10 or 12 bulky policeman around you would agree to escape through a window on the tenth floor or the sixth floor.
They pulled me out again. As I said I was one of the fortunate ones in that they didn't miss. You know their coordination was fairly good. They pulled me out again, back into the room and they made me do various exercises because my body was completely stiff. They made me run on the spot while a policeman was standing in front of me with his arms outstretched and I had to run on the spot with my knees touching his arms, and every time I missed the palm of his hands he would give me a shot and I would go flying.
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They then, after approximately an hour, they carried me physically out of the room onto the other side of the corridor and let me sit in a chair and they gave me water and I think there were two large jugs of water which I finished. While I was sitting there and just - your mind isn't functioning properly, you are not thinking properly, but I noticed a policeman running into the office and grabbing a hessian bag which was in the corner which has a weight in it and I assumed that was the dynamo. A few minutes later I heard screams and it was Chiba screaming. I think they did the same thing with Chiba for about an hour or so.
At about two in the morning, maybe later, we had no concept of time because we didn't have watches, two, three in the morning, they carried us down the stairs and they dumped us into the back seat, all five of us, the three injured plus Isoo and myself onto the seat of a Rambler motor car and they drove us back to Marshall Square.
The following morning we were taken, apparently our lawyers, one of whom was Harold Wolpe, had made an application and they took us to an office somewhere in Braamfontein, I don't know the place at all, and there was three specialists which apparently - Wolpe was there as well, were there on our behalf, and there were three specialists who represented the police or the State. They examined us, they found the electrode marks, they found the marks between our fingers, they found bruises on us and they were also able to trace that we weren't able to walk in a straight line because of the - either it was because of the electrodes or the fact that it had affected our muscles in some form or another. Now I don't know what's happened to
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that report actually because I had no time to stay around, after my detention period to find out or to get a copy of the report.
We were then taken back to Marshall Square. The five of us were charged for sabotage, but the charges were separated. The three - Isoo and I were tried separately and Vandeyar, Naidoo and Nanabhai were tried separately. We were still at Marshall Square and then they appeared in court and they were sentenced to 10 years imprisonment, the three of them. We were then moved over to the Fort, which is Johannesburg Central Prison. We stayed there for almost a month awaiting trial. And then we were eventually taken back to the magistrate's court and we were taken into the basement of the court where the hearing was held.
Now the basement contains a lot of cells where prisoners are held before they come up into the dock, and it's sealed, there are bars all over. There was a magistrate, a prosecutor, some special branch chap and our lawyer, Harold Wolpe. The prosecutor immediately said that they were withdrawing the charges and we were free to go.
I walked up to Harold Wolpe and asked him what we should do, so he said well just go. Immediately one of the special branch chaps, by the name of Dirker came up to us and said you can't speak to your lawyer because you are being arrested under the 90 day detention law. Now it appears that they had been waiting for the 90 detention law to be passed before they took us to court for the hearing. We had no recourse then. We couldn't move out of the court, we couldn't speak to our lawyer, we couldn't do anything. They took us from there back to Marshall Square and they put us into two separate cells, massive cells, large,
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about 20 metres by 10 metres wide. And you were there on your own in that cell. That night we heard someone signing and I even became a bit vulgar and said "Pastor, is that you Mosi", and it was Mosi Moolla. Excuse me Bishop for my (...indistinct). It apparently was Mosi Moolla. He was inbetween - we were in three separate cells, I was in the first cell, he was in the second cell and Chiba was at the end. We also subsequently learnt that there were two White comrades there, Leon Levy and Wolfie Kodesh(?) were in the White section. The way we were able to keep a bit sane was by - especially at night, was by shouting at one another, asking each one to give a song and things like that. The alternative during the day was that you would walk around the cell, read all the graffiti, walk around the cell to exactly measure how many paces you would take to get from point A back to point A walking right round, doing various things to keep your mind sane.
Now Mosi, myself and Chiba we had no toilets in our cells or no ablution facilities. So they would come in the morning and take us out to go and have a wash and we used to do that - come back, they would lock us up again and we would be in the cell the whole day. Once a week the magistrate came. The magistrate would ask you have you got any complaints and things like that, and of course the normal things you would ask is we need reading material and so forth. He would go away, come back the following week and ask you again.
We raised our complaints about the fact that we were sleeping on the floor. We had no water in the cells. You had to bang at the door if you wanted to get out to go and get water. Nonetheless eventually we got fed up with the
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magistrate and we told him, look what's the point in us giving you our complaints because you come back week after week and nothing happens. And he said look, the honest truth is that I come here, I take your complaints, I take it back to the Special Branch and I've got to leave it with them. They are the final arbiters as to what can be done or what can't be. Just being in solitary confinement in itself is torture. I think a lot of people have either had relapses, various forms of ailments as a result of that.
I will just move a bit further. One morning I was taken out to go and have my wash and I came back before the warder was there and I put my finger into the peephole of the door which is a metal door and I pulled the door. During the day, while I was trying to peep out of the hole and leaning against the door the door flung open. Now it appears, I didn't realise it, that I hadn't pulled the door hard enough. When that happened I went and opened Mosi's door, Moolla's door and Chiba's door and we sat and had a bit of a talk and chat and things of that nature. This used to continue quite often. Of course sometimes when I came back from the ablutions room I would bang the door and it would bang a bit too hard and then you know for a few we may not be able to meet one another.
One evening there was an African policeman who was a member of the ANC. He came up there and he told us that there were two people who had been brought into prison. This was the night of the Rivonia arrests. I think we were about the first people to hear of the arrests. They had brought Harold Wolpe and Arthur Goldreich to the cells, and the policeman was kind enough to allow us to go and see them although it was in the White section. He opened the gate
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and we went and chatted with them.
Goldreich was or is a qualified architect and designer. He used to work for Kreydamans, and he was one of the people who was living at Lilly's Farm, that's at Rivonia. But while he was - when he was arrested he was still working for Kreydaman's(?) and they allowed him the facility of the warder's room downstairs to complete his work for Kreydemans. So he used to go down every morning, spend the day in the warder's office, but when - because I was able to get out of the cell I could see that Harold was walking around in the corridors and things like that on the ground floor. Arthur Goldreich managed to get hold of one of the old cistern levers which he found somewhere on the ground floor. He hid it in his pants or somewhere, I'm not certain exactly where and he took it up to his cell.
When we saw him that evening he said I am going to use this. When the policeman comes I am going to knock him over the head and I am going to get his keys and I am going to disappear. So we had to speak to him and say look, it's not a feasible idea, we need to just take it easy, we'll work out something.
During this period there was a young Afrikaner policeman who came to relieve one of the other policeman. Normally he would have been at the office in front, at the charge office. For about two weeks they hadn't allowed us out for exercise or anything. Even if we went for exercise it was a small room, a small courtyard with a fence on top, approximately ten metres by five metres wide, and you spent about half an hour, 45 minutes in there walking around. But this Sunday this policeman came there and he told me that I should go out for exercises. He was going to take me out. JOHANNESBURG HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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I walked ahead of him and as we got to the gate - before we got to the metal door he lit a cigarette and when he opened the door he asked me "Rook jy", "Do you smoke", and I said "yes". So he said here, smoke this, and he told me make sure you don't leave the stompie or the butt anywhere. Throw it into the sink or wherever you can find a place to throw it in. Which I did.
We subsequently became fairly good friends with this policeman. And because he was helpful to us, I mean he was the type of policeman who used to go home, if we wanted cigarettes he would bring us cigarettes back. He would go home and bring food for us. Sometimes prison food isn't that edible and we became very friendly. So I thought we needed to reward him in some way. We sent him to a friend in Market Street with a note saying that please give Mr Greeff a pair of Dr Watson shoes. The friend of ours gave him the pair of shoes knowing that he would be paid when and if we got out, otherwise he could collect the money from my brother or someone from the family.
Then one day Greeff came to us and he said that he had to appear in court because apparently there was a drunken man who had been arrested and came into the police station and aggravated him to such an extent that he had given him a smack. They had charged him for beating up a prisoner and he had to appear in court and didn't have "nuwe pak kleure", he didn't have a new suit. So we sent him to another firm, this time Mosi wrote a letter and said please give Mr Greeff, open an account and give Mr Greeff a suit, which he got. Incidentally Greeff got off that charge and he was very grateful. He thought he had to pay the money. I don't think anyone has paid either of the two, either for the
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shoes or the suit.
But nonetheless when things started becoming a bit more difficult we thought that we needed - oh yes Mosi was - Chiba ...(intervention)
DR RANDERA: If I can just stop you, you ....(tape ends) What happened to you subsequently and the long term effects that you still suffer from after those days of detention and torture?
MR JASSAT: We managed to escape after bribing Greeff. He opened the gates and we got out. Wolpe and Goldreich went to Hillbrow, Mosi and I went to Fordsburg and we were in hiding for approximately five weeks. Eventually I managed to get out of the country through Botswana. I went to Tanzania.
When I got to Dar-es-Salaam I found that I was - well other people noticed this, I didn't realise it myself but I was suffering from epilepsy. The movement sent me to numerous places for treatment, including Moscow, Germany, Czechoslovakia, Cairo and the one report, unfortunately I don't have it with me, which I got back from - which I got from Moscow where I stayed for about six weeks, the first time, where they actually saw the epileptic fits, where they witnessed it and they carried out numerous tests and they found that they were of the opinion anyway that when I had been - when they had shocked me, used the shock treatment on me a certain portion of my central nervous system had been damaged and that was causing the epilepsy. It's 33 years now and I am still on medication.
But I need to just say that it wasn't only the Railway Police who were responsible. There were two special branch policemen whom I can remember were in the room when I was
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being tortured. One was a Lieutenant Coetzee, he was a lieutenant at that time. I don't know what his position is now. And the other one was a Lieutenant van Wyk. I would like to see these two, if they are alive, and get them to come and give evidence before the Commission. And that is my main purpose. I am not here to try to get any compensation for what has happened to me. I think one needs to get them to come before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and also some of the Railway Policemen. Unfortunately I can't remember their names.
I think basically that's my story. I don't know if you have any questions.
DR RANDERA: Thank you very much for your clear story, an honest story, because I'm sure it's - like you say it's the first time that you are actually admitting to these bombings that took place in those days and that you yourself were a member of MK.
I just want to ask you a few questions before I ask the Chairperson to take over again. You mentioned that there were a number of doctors that examined you after the torture but you don't have the reports. Can you remember the names of some - on your behalf?
MR JASSAT: No I have no idea, but I am sure - unfortunately Harold Wolpe died a few months ago, he would have had the records and I am certain that there must be some records somewhere in the archives of the State.
DR RANDERA: My second question is to go back again, sorry, in your statement you refer to the hessian that was covered over your body and tied by your knees and you mentioned a form of torture that also took place, can you just tell us a little more there? I understand that you were swung
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around and....
MR JASSAT: After they had tortured me they also, for example, besides pushing me out of the window, before they had done that, they had lifted me by my ankles, two 6.5 feet, 7 foot policemen, bulky chaps, had lifted me by my ankles and swung me like a pendulum and every now and again my head would be knocking the ground. I don't know whether that had any effect on my brain, regards the epilepsy. But they did various things like that. I can't remember all the details. It's a very, very long time ago and one tends to try to forget some of these things, because you want to start living your life. You can't continue living in the past.
DR RANDERA: Two more questions. One is it is remarkable that within those dark and difficult days that there were policemen that were willing to assist. You mentioned that there was an African policeman who was a member of the ANC, do you remember his name by any chance?
MR JASSAT: I only know his first name, his name was Ben. I can't remember his surname, unfortunately.
DR RANDERA: And my last question relates to reparation. I know you have said that you don't want anything, but we are entrusted to develop a policy towards reparation, are there any recommendations that you would like to make that goes into that policy?
MR JASSAT: I think I would leave it basically to the Commission itself to deal with that aspect. I don't think I am qualified enough to deal with that matter, except for the fact that some of these people, or the perpetrators need to be brought either to justice or they need to come and appear before the Commission.
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DR RANDERA: Thank you Abdulhay.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Just before I ask my fellow panellists if they have questions to ask, could I appeal to the gallery please. The only cameras that are allowed here are the TV cameras and if anybody else is using a camera could you please desist from that. Thank you very much. Any questions. Wynand Malan.
MR MALAN: Mr Jassat you also mentioned in your statement that there were further medical tests done in Dar-es-Salaam and Mosia, is that Moscow, I wanted to know what this was, this Mosia which is typed here in the report, do you have any of those reports available to us?
MR JASSAT: I am not certain. I will try to look for the report which I got from Moscow which was in, actually initially it was in Russian which I had translated into English, and you know I've been moving around. I was in Dar-es-Salaam for some time and then I went to London and then I came back here, so I am not certain whether I've got the documents with me here, unfortunately. But if I can find the documents, I will try to make an effort to find them, I will try to pass them on to the Commission.
MR MALAN: Thank you very much. And then just a second question, you will probably know that the Act enjoins us to find out what the circumstances, the background, the broader picture was, in terms of your involvement at that early days, in MK, would you be prepared to assist our investigators further in terms of written statements? I don't want any evidence here, to enable us to find out more about perhaps what people were thinking they were reacting against, so we can look into the perspectives and motives of all the alleged perpetrators.
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MR JASSAT: (...indistinct)
CHAIRPERSON: Hugh Lewin.
MR LEWIN: Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Jassat I am interested in the question you've raised about the magistrates, you say you appeared before the magistrates where you were discharged, subsequently you made several complaints under the 90 days about - to the magistrate about your conditions, what was the attitude of the magistrates themselves? I mean do you feel that they realised of the conditions that you were in and did they make any other statements about that?
MR JASSAT: I think the magistrate was sympathetic but he was functioning just as a government official, basically, and what he told us was there was nothing he could do about it. All he had to do, his task was to come and see us once a week, raise the points that we raised with him, he had to take those points back to the special branch. He didn't go to any commission or anything of that nature. It went back to the people who were the perpetrators of the crime. So it was a no win situation virtually. There's something that - I don't know how I can put it, eventually we felt that there was no point in even raising any problems or any complaints with the magistrate because it was going to go back to the special branch and nothing was being done about our complaints.
CHAIRPERSON: Yasmin Sooka.
MS SOOKA: You mentioned that three medical doctors examined you at the request of your own legal advisor, could you tell us their names please?
MR JASSAT: I think I was asked that just a bit earlier, I can't, I wouldn't be able to remember their names.
MS SOOKA: You also talk about the conduct of the
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magistrate, you talk about the conduct of policemen whilst you were being detained, one of our functions is also to recommend measures to prevent such abuses taking place in the future, have you ever given that any thought about what could be done so that the people who administer justice in places like prisons could take care of prisoners in a way which would not take away from their own human rights.
MR JASSAT: No up to now, to be honest I haven't, up to now, been thinking along those lines. I've been - as I said I was in exile for 32 years. You are involved in other things, you don't think about what's going to happen in a democratic society how one should function, but I will leave that to you know more senior people, people who are more aware. For example the Truth Commission for example should set down some rules whereby policemen or whoever should act, guidelines for example.
MS SOOKA: One last question. When did you return to the country and what are you actually doing with your life now?
MR JASSAT: Well I returned about three years ago after getting indemnity from the State, both for being a member of a banned organisation, because while I was in exile I worked completely, for the 30 odd years, for the ANC. So I had to get indemnity for that and I also had to get indemnity for being a member of Umkhonto weSizwe, which I got. And it's only after that that I was able to return.
MS SOOKA: Do you still work for the ANC or are you retired?
MR JASSAT: Sorry, I am working for a commercial firm.
MS SOOKA: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Russel Ally.
DR ALLY: Mr Jassat you are aware that at these hearings we
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are not going to be making any findings because what we are doing here is taking statements of witnesses which we then have to go and investigate to establish the truth of these statements. Now you mentioned in your statement that Isoo Chiba was also probably subjected to the same type of treatment and torture as yourself, is he alive? Can he make a statement to the same effect?
MR JASSAT: Well Isoo Chiba is alive. He is an MP. And I am not certain whether he's here at the moment, he may be in Cape Town, but I think one should, or the Commissioners should approach him to give evidence. Unfortunately I did try to get hold of him but I believe he hasn't got a phone at the moment. He's waiting for them to install a phone at his home. Seeing that he lives in (...indistinct) it's a bit difficult for me, I don't have transport, so it's a bit difficult for me to get hold of him.
DR ALLY: And you say that when they tortured you they placed a hessian bag over your head, now that presumably was also to prevent you from seeing who was actually carrying out the torture?
MR JASSAT: I am not sure what the purpose of that was because I had seen the policemen although I may not know some of their names, but I knew that there were two special branch chaps and they were senior guys, Lieutenant Coetzee and Van Wyk. But also the hessian bag was damp. Now I think that's - I don't know, over the 30 years I've been thinking about this that when there is any - you've got wet clothing for example and you get an electric shock it's much worse than when you are completely dry. And I think that may have been one of the reasons for the.... The other reason may also have been to avoid us seeing who actually
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tied the electrodes. I am not certain.
DR ALLY: So those two names which you mentioned you actually saw them administering torture to you directly, or were they just present in the room?
MR JASSAT: Well they were present and you know when there are 12 or 15 policemen there you can't exactly be certain who did what. But one of the reasons why I wasn't released was because I had a visitor, it was my brother, and I had asked him whether he had been to see my lawyers and he said no, so I got a bit angry and Lieutenant Coetzee was in the room with my brother and myself and I told my brother that I wanted him to go and see the lawyers because, again I used vulgar language, I mean I was in a state and I said, please forgive me, I did say I want these bastards to hang. I made that specific...
And incidentally the police, special branch, used to visit us once a eek. Their visit was over that week. I saw my brother the day after they had visited me. The chap who was supposed to visit me was a chap called Lieutenant van Wyk. He was there the following morning again. It was unusual, twice in a week and he came and he came and sat down next to me on the floor because I never got up for them when they came into the room, and he said Abdulhay have you got any complaints and things like that. And I told him what's the point in complaining because I mentioned these things, whatever we mention to the magistrate goes back to you and you do nothing about it, so what are you going on about.
So he said - then he went on and he said do you have anything to tell me, so I said I have nothing to tell. Then he asked me, what's this I hear you want to lay a charge
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against the special branch. And I said, yes, I want to. So he says you know we weren't there. I said don't lie. You kicked me or you punched me, one thing or the other, whichever it was, and he says but you know you are going to lose the case. So I said why are you worried, it's not your money, I'll be using my money. If I lose the case it's not going to affect you, so why the heck are you worrying. And that's when they actually approached Isoo Chiba and told him that we will release you on condition that you don't lay charges against these special branch. And they did release Isoo Chiba a week later. Of course Isoo Chiba did consult with us and we did tell him that it would be advisable to go rather than sit in prison.
DR ALLY: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Hlengiwe Mkhize do you have a question?
MS MKHIZE: Thank you. One small question. I just wanted to hear from you as to the age at which you first got exposed to police harassments whether you encountered that once you were detained or you have had difficulties before that, especially you and your family?
MR JASSAT: I got involved politically at the age of about 16 while I was still at school and I almost got kicked out of school because we brought the school out on strike for example and took them on a march to the magistrate's court where a case was being held. And then I was involved in various activities, for example, and I had to run away from police before the Westonaria removals came, so it's been a continuing thing. I was arrested in 1958 and charged for incitement. I was in prison for a while and then on bail. The charges apparently fell through and we were discharged. JOHANNESBURG HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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So it's been a continuing process from the age of 18, 16, 18, you know harassment, police harassment, then following me around, various things like that, right up to the age of 30 when I was eventually arrested, 29.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Jassat. I am particularly interested in the fact that you've said something that has not been said too frequently here. The one you said an Afrikaner police officer became friends with you and I think that that is important because the evidence, the testimony that has been coming is evidence that paints most of them in sombre lights and where the appeal that I made in a previous hearing where we needed to be careful about demonising people, I think it is praiseworthy that even after 30 years or so you remember this Constable Greeff. We allowed you to name him because it is not to his detriment.
Might I just point out with regard to that, that we are mindful of the court ruling against naming. We have asked witnesses, as far as possible, if they might avoid, unless we have given reasonable notice to people.
The other thing that I found noteworthy in your testimony was something that went contrary again to a great deal of the testimony that we have been receiving of unhelpful or even obstructive magistrates, police officers, sometimes doctors and that you in answer to a question here said the magistrate was sympathetic but was impotent because he was reporting alleged perpetrators to perpetrators. And I think we are grateful for that. So that people are aware that we are just human beings and everybody is a human being, even the perpetrator.
MR JASSAT: Basically that's true.
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CHAIRPERSON: And I hope I mean that we will be able to respond to part of what you have said and that we hope that your medical condition might improve. But thank you very much for coming.
MR JASSAT: Thank you.
