MS BURTON
We welcome all of you back and any new comers who have arrived in the hall. Could we ask - we know that there are not enough of the translation headsets for everybody in the hall. If you understand Xhosa and can understand the witnesses’ testimony, perhaps you would be so generous as to share your headphones with someone who doesn’t. Thank you.
Good morning, you are Rose Mantysi.
MS MANTYSI
Yes.
MS BURTON
Can you hear me all right.
MS MANTYASI
Yes, I do hear you.
MS BURTON
You are accompanied by a member of your family.
MS MANTYASI
This is my sister Vivian Hans.
MS BURTON
Thank you for coming and you are very welcome. Ms Mantysi please will you please stand to take the oath.
ROSE MANTYASI Duly sworn states
MS BURTON
Your testimony is going to be facilitated by Ms Seroke and I’ll hand over to her.
MS SEROKE
We welcome both you and your sister. We thank you for having come here today. On the 16th June 1985 you were at home with your children and police arrived. They had come to tell you that your husband, Booi Mantysi had been shot. Won’t you please tell us what happened that day.
MS MANTYASI
Should I tell what happened that day. It was the 16th of June. There were riots - the police were beating people up. They were beating children and elderly people. They did not want anybody in the streets that day. On the Sunday on Street 9, my brother was shot. He was shot by Gangi. Booi Mantysi was in Street 9 in another man’s house.
MS SEROKE
Can I disturb you. Won’t you please come nearer to the mike. Thank you.
MS MANTYASI
It was the 16th of June 1985. There were riots. The police were beating people up. They did not want anybody in the street. Elderly people or children.
On Sunday on Street 9, my brother Andile Hans, was shot. He was shot by Gangi. My husband was in a house on Street 9. They then picked him up where he was shot. They took him to my house in a car. When they got there I asked who it was. They said it was Andile - he was crying. They put him on the floor.
They did not know what to do, because the police did not want cars in the streets either. We then asked people to go to Max Hans, a brother of mine, so that Andile can be taken to the hospital. When I wanted to see exactly where he was shot - two substances emanated from him. I don’t know what it was. I was also very disturbed and confused - crying. They asked me to hold these substances in my hand.
They took Andile to the hospital. On the way back, they were stopped by police. They stopped the car that my brother had been driving. They asked him where are they from - where are they going. Did they not know that they did not want anybody in the street. They then explained that they taken Andile to the hospital - Andile who was shot. In the van at the back there were other police. They then said, here is Booi Mantysi. He is the man that we want. They roughly took him out of the car.
This is what Booi Mantysi related to me. They held him by the chest. They asked him what he wants amongst children. Booi Mantysi then asked what children are you talking about. They told him if you get out of your house - out of your yard - we are going to shoot you. Today is the day that you die. I do not know the name of the police, but they were white policemen.
My husband then told me what happened - he related to me - he related to me what happened. He took this lightly - he then left. He didn’t tell me where he was going - I could hear bullet sounds. After quite a while, as I was home with the children, there as a whole lot of us watching television. These police arrived - a number of them. They were knocking hard on my door. They said I must open my door, they are the police. We opened the door. These boers entered - Gangi was ahead of all of them.
They asked if this is Booi Mantyasi’s house - I said yes it is. They asked where his wife is. I had my twins in my arms - they were four years old then. I said I am the wife. They asked for him - I said I do not know. Where did he go, they asked - I said I don’t know, he’s been away for a while. They then said they had told him that he must not leave his yard. They said he is amongst children. We have now come to tell you that the police have shot Booi Mantysi.
We were all in shock - my sister-in-law was there as well. They said they shot him at Street 9. I was in shock - I asked is he dead. They said no - he is still alive in hospital. They told me that I can go the following day. I asked why did you not bring him to me. I want to see how you shot him. They said they had shot him amongst children - he was throwing stones at our van.
I asked again why did you not bring him to me - I want to see him. They said they did not know my house. I told them that that’s a lie, because how do now know where my house is. They said that Gangi had showed them the house - the very same Gangi who shot my brother - they then left.
The next day as I could not sleep I got up early. I went to tell my husband’s brother in Street 6 - I told him that the police have come to me saying that they shot my husband, because he had been throwing stones at the hospital. He asked what happened exactly - I told him that they said his not dead - they took him straight to the hospital. When I asked them why they did not bring him to me, they said they did not know my house.
I said then that I will start at the hospital and then I will go to work. I went home to look for my sister - she had left for the hospital already. When I got to Street 10, my sister was there in a car with someone else. I can’t remember the guy that was driving. They said I must get into the car. I then asked did you hear the Andile has been shot together with Zamani’s father.
I got into the car - the car turned - drove past my home - got to my house. When we got to my house, my sister then started crying - I cried too. I felt that something was wrong. When I was inside the house, they told me that the nurses did not treat my husband. By the time he got there he was dead - it is my brother that they treated.
On the Monday - the Monday morning the police went to the hospital - took the corpse to Bloemfontein. On Tuesday or Wednesday, I can’t remember exactly which day it was, they said I must sign they’re going to send the corpse later. They want to operate - have a post-mortem. I told them not to do a post-mortem - I am going to look for my own doctor. I refused to sign - my father-in-law also refused to sign.
Between Thursday and Friday - I can’t remember which day exactly - we went to the hospital and asked where the corpse was. We were told that the corpse was taken on the Monday by the police. I then told them what had happened - that is how my husband’s case ended.
MS SEROKE
Were the shootings on the 16th of June 1985? Ten years after the June 16th that happened in Johannesburg. Were they commemorating the 16th of June 1976.
MS MANTYSI
It is the police that were shooting. Shooting at the people. All I could hear were this gun shots.
MS SEROKE
Were they just shooting - were they shooting because of riots or what?
MS MANTYSI
No, there were no riots - at least as I perceived.
MS SEROKE
When they kept on saying that your husband was working with the children. Was he a member of an organisation?MS MANTYSI
Yes, DARA.
MS SEROKE
Was he really working with the children or was he just a member of the organisation.
MS MANTYSI
I don’t think he was working with the children. He was just a member of this organisation.
MS SEROKE
After you had refused to sign the papers for the post-mortem, did they do it on their own accord, without your signature?
MS MANTYSI
Yes, they did.
MS SEROKE
In your statement, no inquest was made. And up to this day you do not know who shot your husband.
MS MANTYSI
No, I don’t know - I think Gangi will know. Because he shot my brother and after having shot my brother, he brought police to my own house, showing them where I stay.
MS SEROKE
There is a group of people investigating evidence that is in your statement. I am going to read a report that they have written in connection with your brother. There was an inquest in actual fact. I am going to read it first in English. There will then [indistinct]
… states that the deceased died on 16th of June 1985 as a result of multiple entry wounds to the heart and lungs with internal bleeding when the deceased was shot.
The finding of the inquest was that no person was responsible for an act or omission amounting to an offence with regard to the death of the deceased.
But after they’d said that no person was held responsible, the report goes on an says:
A statement was taken from a constable Barnard who shot him.
Did you ever have any dealings with the constable?
MS MANTYSI
No.
MS SEROKE
It is said here that constable Barnard shot your husband. And the inquest said that he did not make a mistake - by shooting him. You said that all your children are still at school. Only two are working.
MS MANTYSI
I have five children at school. The one is in standard nine. His name is Sipho. Sivuhile is in standard five. Nondomise in standard four. Abongile and Anale are in standard three - those are my twins.
MS SEROKE
You are not working.
MS MANTYSI
No, I am not working. My leg was injured - I could not carry on working.
MS SEROKE
Do you get a pension?
MS MANTYSI
Yes, I get R540.00 for the children - it’s too little. What can I do with R540.00.
MS SEROKE
What you are telling us is very painful. I am going to read a conclusion that was made by the investigators. I am going to read this in English - it is going to be interpreted for you.
This is another case of failure by the Justice Department or of the South African police of informing the family of the deceased as to the judicial process.
They were uninformed as to their rights and had no access to legal aid or representation.
After there had been an inquest - this means that the authorities did not even have the respect to tell you properly, with dignity - what happened to your husband.
How do you survive at home, considering that you have so many children and you are all living on R540.00.
MS MANTYSI
I struggle a lot - this money is just for the food. I cannot buy clothes for my children. If I had been working, maybe things would be better.
MS SEROKE
What is your interests now. What do want the Truth and Reconciliation Committee to do - Commission.
MS MANTYSI
I want to know who shot my husband - because I do not know who it is. My children want to continue with their education, even the two that are no longer at school. It is because there is no money. They want to continue with their schooling.
MS SEROKE
Today for the first time you know who shot my husband. Now that you know, what do you think you want to do about that.
MS MANTYSI
I don’t know - I really don’t know what I am going to do and how. It’s difficult to forgive. Because my husband was my everything. My children today are suffering. He was our breadwinner - he was my everything. This Barnard is working for his children - my children have no supporter.
MS SEROKE
Can you not forgive, even though you know who it is?
MS MANTYSI
I don’t know. I’ll ask the Lord to help me.
MS SEROKE
Thank you - we will go back to the Chairperson now.
ADV POTGIETER
Ms Mantysi, this seems to have been a particularly dark day in De Aar, the 16th of June. On the day that your husband was shot and killed. According to the information at our disposal, apart from your husband, there were three other persons who were also shot and it seems injured as well as two young boys - one sixteen years of age who was shot by the police when they were leaving their grandmother’s house. So it seems to have been quite a dark day, but you have said that your brother was also shot on that day.
MS MANTYSI
Yes, my brother was shot - his name Andile Hans.
ADV POTGIETER
And was he also shot by the police or who shot him?
MS MANTYSI
Yes, he was shot by Gangi, a policeman.
ADV POTGIETER
And was there a court case in connection with the shooting of your brother?
MS MANTYSI
I can’t remember - I don’t remember any court case.
ADV POTGIETER
[Indistinct] at home with your parents or with yourselves or what.
MS MANTYSI
He was staying with my parents - I stay in my own house.
ADV POTGIETER
And if - if there were in fact court proceedings in connection with his shooting, you would have known about that.
MS MANTYSI
Yes, I would know - that’s for sure - I would know.
ADV POTGIETER
It seems that if it’s similar to the shooting of your husband where you were not given any notice or any information about a court case. Similar in the case of your brother Andile, you were not given any notice or any information about a court case about Andile shooting as well.
MS MANTYSI
No, we were not given any information. We once got a letter - it was on a Friday. They called me - I then went, because people were being called there. They never said anything, I just waited and waited and waited. Other people went in, but I didn’t go in. I had this letter in my hand. I asked one policeman, I am not sure whether he was a policeman or not, but he was working there. I showed him the letter, but I told him that nobody has dealt with me. He said he does not know what’s going on, but the Magistrate is still there.
I showed the Magistrate the letter telling him that I had been called, but no-one has dealt with me - everybody is leaving. That Magistrate said to me - he said I must go and ask my lawyer. He did not say anymore - I left and went home.
ADV POTGIETER
So did that letter tell you to come to court on a specific day.
MS MANTYSI
That letter had asked my to go to the Magistrate.
ADV POTGIETER
And did it tell you when you must on what day you must go to the Magistrate.
MS MANTYSI
There was a date - it was on a Friday.
ADV POTGIETER
You went to the Magistrate’s office on that day. Did you go in the morning.
MS MANTYSI
It was in the morning - they normally start at nine. I went even earlier than that. I waited, thinking they were going to call me, but they never did. I just waited and waited - they never called me - they did not call me at all.
ADV POTGIETER
[Indistinct] until the afternoon. And then - sorry you go ahead.
MS MANTYSI
I don’t remember well, but it was until after supper. I can’t even remember the date well, but it was on a Friday.
ADV POTGIETER
[Indistinct] you then had to - when you realised that nobody is calling you - you then had to take steps to try and find out what was going on.
MS MANTYSI
I went inside there was a man in normal clothes. He was standing by the counter. I told him - showed him the letter - told him that I had not been called in. What should I do I asked. I told him that I had come, they mustn’t say I had not come.
I asked him to take him me to the Magistrate and we went to the Magistrate. I told the Magistrate that I am here as I have been called, but you have not dealt with me at all. Then he said I must just ask my lawyer - that’s all he said.
ADV POTGIETER
[Indistinct] all about your husband’s incident.
MS MANTYSI
He said nothing - he just said I must ask everything from my lawyer.
ADV POTGIETER
[Indistinct] at that stage - you were there on you own.
MS MANTYSI
I had a lawyer - his name is Sewisa. He was with the other people. I thought that the Sewisa was going to come. Because I came early - I thought that they’d come later. I stayed until late, until the Magistrate said I must ask my own lawyer.
ADV POTGIETER
The lawyer did not come at all. He wasn’t at court. Mr Sewisa wasn’t at court at all that day.
MS MANTYSI
He might have been there, because as I arrived, his car was leaving going towards the township.
ADV POTGIETER
Do you want to tell us something about the funeral.
MS MANTYSI
I wanted my husband to be buried on the Monday. The police refused. They said he must be buried on the Sunday. He was buried on Sunday. The police were everywhere in the township. They had guns guarding us, but they did not do anything.
ADV POTGIETER
Is it correct that your - at one stage the body of your husband was removed from De Aar and in fact taken to Bloemfontein, without you knowledge or your consent.
MS MANTYSI
Yes, that’s the truth. I did not know that they were taking the corpse. They said they wanted to operate on him. They insisted that I sign I refused. I said I’d get my own doctor to perform a post-mortem.
ADV POTGIETER
It appears as if it would have been impossible for you to have the funeral on the day that you planned it for. Because the body wasn’t here, the body was in Bloemfontein.
MS MANTYSI
Please repeat your question.
ADV POTGIETER
It appears from the information at our disposal that it would have been impossible for you to have had the funeral on the day that you planned for the funeral, because the body wasn’t in De Aar. The body was actually in Bloemfontein, without your knowledge.
MS MANTYSI
The corpse must have been in Bloemfontein. But we went and asked for it they said that it was not there. They did not say at the time that it’s in Bloemfontein. I don’t know when they brought the corpse back. But they brought it back that day they wanted to bring it back. We then buried him on Sunday - on their own date - not my date.
ADV POTGIETER
Thank you very much Ms Mantysi.
MS BURTON
Ms Mantysi, sorry don’t take it off just yet. I wanted to ask about your brother. I believe he is working in Cape Town now.
MS MANTYSI
Yes, it is the same brother that had been shot.
MS BURTON
Does he have any injuries still as a result or has he completely recovered.
MS MANTYSI
I don’t know - I am not sure. I don’t whether he is still in pain, but he was operated on his stomach - I never asked him. I don’t ask him now if there are repercussions.
MS BURTON
[Indistinct] the company knew today, is that right?
MS MANTYSI
No, this is my sister.
MS BURTON
We have listened carefully to al that you have told us and we have taken note of the struggle that you are having to bring up your children without your husband and breadwinner to support you.
At the end of our work with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, it is part of our job to present a report to the President and to make recommendations about ways in which some reparation can be made for what people lost in the past. And maybe one of the ways that people can be helped is by enabling children, the next generation to have a proper education. And I hope that maybe at that time something will be able to be done to assist your family. We know that it has been very hard for you to come and live all that painful time in your life and we thank you very much for coming here today - thank you.
MS MANTYSI
Thank you.
