CASE NO: CT/01520/KAR
VICTIM: AMBROSE MPEPETO
VIOLATION: SHOT BY POLICE
TESTIMONY BY: SANGO MPEPETO
MS BURTON
Please will you stand to take the oath.
SANGO MPEPETO Duly sworn in states
MS BURTON
You are accompanied - is it by your wife?
SANGO MPEPETO
It is my mother’s sister.
MS BURTON
Thank you very much for coming too. Advocate Potgieter will facilitate your testimony.
ADV POTGIETER
Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mpepeto and ma’am, good day and welcome again thank you for coming. Mr Mpepeto you will tell us about your late brother Ambrose Mpepeto who was shot and killed during 1990 it appears - but before you do that, your brother, your late brother was involved in the Civic Affairs in De Aar. Is that correct?
MR MPEPETO
Yes, that’s correct.
ADV POTGIETER
What position did he hold and in which organisation was it?
MR MPEPETO
My brother was a President of the DARA organisation.
ADV POTGIETER
That is the De Aar Residents Association, is that?
MR MPEPETO
Yes, it was the Residents Association of the Nonswagasi.
ADV POTGIETER
And in 1990 it seems as if the incident happened during August - August of 1990.
MR MPEPETO
Yes, that’s correct.
ADV POTGIETER
Was your brother, did he have a family or was he unmarried.
MR MPEPETO
He was married, but he had no children.
ADV POTGIETER
And was he living on his own with his - with his wife - his own house.
MR MPEPETO
Yes, he was living with his wife.
ADV POTGIETER
Now at that time when he was shot and killed - what was the situation like in De Aar?
MR MPEPETO
This situation was bad here in De Aar at that time, because there were police all over the township. On the 1st of August - it was Wednesday - at night - in 1990 - at about 1 o’clock - I heard a knock at the door in my house. It was a daughter from my neighbour crying.
And he - she told me that my brother was shot in Street 10 and I woke up I was shocked - I went to my uncle in Street 5. Because my brother was in my uncle’s house and I told my uncle that my brother was shot in Street 10. We both went there and we heard people crying there in Street 10. My sister’s mother who is sitting next to me. He was staying next to my brother’s place. When we went there my younger brother - who is Johannesburg now, was there - was already there and he was the first one to see my brother’s body.
The police were there and Mr Snyman was there. And my younger brother - when he wanted to pick up my body, they shot my younger brother with a tear gas. They didn’t want anybody to pick up the body of my brother there - he lied there for a long time.
When we arrive there, we were told that people were crying and the police didn’t allow anyone to pick my brother’s body up. When we arrived there with my uncle, we saw the police vans taking the person who shot my brother together with them. We picked up my brother’s hat and it had a hole and we - we - I said to my uncle we have to go tell my mother what happened.
When we arrived to my mother, we knocked at the door and she asked who are we and I told her to open the door. We entered the door together with my uncle. And my mother asked us why we were there. We told her that my brother was dead, but firstly we didn’t know how to tell my mother, but we had to tell her and I said to her, mother, please sit down, because we are here to tell you something about your son.
Because the shots you heard fired outside, they killed you son Ambrose and we tried to comfort her. She was strong.
We went back to our homes and we slept and the next morning we went to the hospital to the mortuary to look for him. And we were told to wait for another surgeon and this white surgeon came and we said we just wanted to see the body of my brother. We - they showed us this body, my brother had a shot - a wound in the forehead and in the chest. And they - he also had a wound made with an axe in his body. We then went home.
There is a man from the Tantsi family. At that time there was a teacher’s car that had been burned down. This man from the Tantsi family had gone to Street 10. He went to a house that had shot my brother. They asked why they’d burned the car. Apparently that’s when my brother arrived. He was with Pickup Tantsi. My brother said they must stop this violence. [indistinct] then took out a gun and shot my brother, twice and he fell down - after that they axed him.
Time went on, Pickup kept on saying that if he is wanted for evidence, he wanted to come - and Pickup wanted to come and give evidence that my brother had died in his place. He was the one who have meant to have died. When we went to find out what’s going on with the case, they kept on saying he was a communist, an ANC communist. We just gave up saying the Lord is in control.
My mother’s health deteriorating. As we are here today, she could die any moment. One day in 1992 - one said the case continuos, because I was working at night, I came to the police station. And the family was not told, truly the case was on - I sat at the back. The false case continued before me.
Gladys Ngcaga, who was at the time a Mayor, said he’s the one who shot my brother. She then said my brother wanted to rape her. She said she was in a car with the doors locked. They asked - did he go about trying to rape you. She said that she had opened the windows just a bit. I was sitting there - listening to all this lies - all this deception. She was then asked what she did, she said she took the gun and shot him. She was told to describe to the - to everyone what happened exactly. She cried and that was the end of the case.
The continued as Mayor - as Mayoress in our location. Because I am a man of peace, because I preach peace, I had to forgive her. Ms Gladys Ngcaga once called me to her office. I told my mother and I went to the office. She closed the door behind me. She said to me Mr Mpepeto I see that you are a man of peace. I see your mother all the time I can see that she is hurting. She’s hurting and she’s in poverty, because it is her son that helped her. I want to come to your home as a family, to ask for forgiveness. I then said they must come so that they can also be free. They did not come to this day.
In conclusion - my mother can die any moment. She is emotionally disturbed. Each and every day she says that before she dies, she must know who killed her son. Then she will have peace in her heart. She wants to die peacefully.
ADV POTGIETER
Now this Mr Ngcaga and his wife, did they belong to any group or organisation.
MR MPEPETO
They are PAC members.
ADV POTGIETER
And the DARA, the residents association, was that affiliated end of Tape 2, Side A … [indistinct] your mother have any arguments - disagreements with the Ngcaga before the incident.
MR MPEPETO
I know of no discordance with the Ngcaga family. Even when there were meetings he used to tell me I know about my brother. He used to investigate everything. If there was any corruption, he would investigate. Even in the meetings he spoke openly. But he never told me of any discordance with the Ngcaga family.
ADV POTGIETER
Now you say he was a person who was quote forthright about anything that was wrong and investigated things that was done wrong. Now in that investigation did it in any was affect the Mayoress, with the money issues and all that.
MR MPEPETO
I am not sure. But she was the Mayor at the Nonswagasi township. Her husband was not working.
ADV POTGIETER
Now you were telling us that you yourself, you are a man of peace, your brother we know, your late brother was the first president or the president of the Residence Association. What sort of person was he?
MR MPEPETO
Yes, it is so.
ADV POTGIETER
Was he a man of peace. What kind of person was he?
MR MPEPETO
He was a peacefully man. He was not chaotic at all. But if anybody went after him unnecessarily, he would retaliate.
ADV POTGIETER
You were saying that Pickup Tantsi was saying that he should have actually been the one that was killed. So your brother must have intervened somehow on his behalf. What was he actually saying - what happened.
MR MPEPETO
My brother got there and Pickup was there wanting to find out why the car was burnt down. My brother then said they must stop, because there would be chaos. That is when my brother was shot and Pickup was saved by running away.
ADV POTGIETER
So your brother really went there to try and avoid a conflict - to defuse a situation that could have led to conflict and violence possibly.
MR MPEPETO
Yes, it is so.
ADV POTGIETER
As a result of that, trying to avoid violence, he met violence, he met a violent death.
MR MPEPETO
Yes, he was trying to make peace, but he is the one who got shot at the end ironically.
ADV POTGIETER
Now you were saying that according to the information, it was Mr Ngcaga that was actually doing the shooting.
MR MPEPETO
It is Mr Ngcaga who shot, because Pickup was there and he said that he would give evidence that it was Mr Ngcaga who shot.
ADV POTGIETER
And somehow this story that Ms Ngcaga was telling the court, subsequently doesn’t make sense if one looks at the injuries which your brother had. You - you told us that apart from the gunshot wounds, he also had wounds that was caused by some sharp objects, an axe or something.
MR MPEPETO
He had two wounds. Two bullet shots, in the forehead and in the chest and then apparently as he as lying down he was axed on the face.
ADV POTGIETER
And you - you saw those wounds - you saw the axe wounds on his face subsequently.
MR MPEPETO
When I went to the hospital I saw myself.
ADV POTGIETER
So if one just looks at the injuries, then the story of Ms Ngcaga can’t be right, because he was not only shot, he was also hit with an axe. And she said that she only shot him.
MR MPEPETO
Yes, it is true - because her report was a joke - it was lies.
ADV POTGIETER
This allegation that your late brother was trying to rape her. What is your response to that.
MR MPEPETO
It’s not so - because she said she was in a car, the doors all locked, one window open just a bit - a hand could not even go in. But what is amazing is that my brother was about three meters from the yard, but she never got out of the car. She was in the car the whole time - it doesn’t make sense.
ADV POTGIETER
And what happened to this case. Was any of Mr or Ms Ngcaga ever charged - convicted - sentenced?
MR MPEPETO
After the case when she could not tell the court, when she just started crying, the case did not continue. It has been quiet since.
ADV POTGIETER
So you have never been told of what the outcome of that case was. It just stopped when she started crying.
MR MPEPETO
After she had cried, the case did not continue. We would just hear rumours that the case is not continuing. As for me I asked for forgiveness from the Lord and asked the Lord to forgive those who had killed my brother.
There is only one reason why I want the person who killed my brother to come forward, because it is because my mother is ill and all she wants to know is who killed her child. She does not necessarily want this person to be jailed. She just wants to know who it is.
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct] Mr and Ms Ngcaga still live in De Aar?
MR MPEPETO
They are still here.
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct] - Ms Ngcaga is now longer the Mayoress?
MR MPEPETO
She’s no longer Mayoress.
ADV POTGIETER
Your late brother’s wife, what has happened to her.MR MPEPETO
She is in the hall - during the incident she was at her own home. We then phoned her to tell her that her husband had passed away. She then arrived.
ADV POTGIETER
Mr Mpepeto thank you very much.
MS SEROKE
Mr Mpepeto it is clear the Ms Ngcaga used her position as a Mayoress to protect her husband when she said she is the one who shot your brother. But it is clear that she was never able to say who had axed your brother even though she had shot him. Is that how you think as well?
MR MPEPETO
Yes, I think so.
MS SEROKE
The man who had been watching - was he there in court during the procedure?
MR MPEPETO
He never went to court - he had been waiting to be called in, but he was never called in. I just heard by chance that there was a court case and I went.
MS SEROKE
Did you say that Ms Ngcaga had said that she was going to come with her family to your family to ask for forgiveness.
MR MPEPETO
No, she never came.
MS SEROKE
Did you try any means asking them why they did not come, because your mother is in ill health?
MR MPEPETO
I never asked, because they’d said they were waiting for her uncle to come and ask for forgiveness. We have been waiting since. I never went after them, because it is their own burden. We don’t have a problem. My brother’s blood is in their hands. If they don’t sleep at night because of my brother’s death. It is their own problem.
If they want us to come together for them to ask forgiveness, we can do that. We can pray so that they also can be free inside.
MS SEROKE
How would it affect you if the Truth and Reconciliation Committee try and bring the two families together? Would it be good for you?MR MPEPETO
I would be glad, because peace is all we want, forgiveness is all we want.
MS SEROKE
Thank you.
MS BURTON
Mr Mpepeto thank you very much for coming here today to tell us about the loss to your family of your brother and the loss to your community of a man who was a leader in his association and his community. It’s been very moving for us to hear of the effects of this event on your lives and I am sure the feelings of division which are still there even though you are able to live together in the same community in some measure of peace.
We human beings find it very, very difficult to say we are sorry when we have done something wrong and it’s one of the things that we as a Commission have to help people to make a path that they can tread, so that they can come forward and say that they are sorry. And if necessary, seek amnesty for the things that they have done.
We value your approach as you have said as you are a man of peace and we hope that something can be done to heal this division so that repentance and forgiveness can happen.
And we thank you and your mother’s sister and your late brother’s wife for coming here today, thank you very much.
