CHAIRPERSON: You have come to tell us about the treatment of your son, Vincent. I just want to say to Mrs Enklapo, that I know you have made an addition to the statement, but you have not made a complete statement. I would like you, if that is possible, to make a statement to our statement takers. They are here today. We are very sorry to hear about the death of your son, but thank you for coming as well today. Thank you to you both. That is Patricia Nombolelo Phasiwe. Mrs Phasiwe, can you hear me? Can you hear me?
MRS PHASIWE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.
MRS PHASIWE: Afternoon.
CHAIRPERSON: I know you have had a long day and we have almost come to the end of that day and soon you will be able to go home. Mrs Phasiwe, Ms Joyce Seroke is going to help you in telling your story. Before I hand over to her could you please stand to take the oath.
MRS PHASIWE: (Duly sworn in, states).
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. You may sit down. Joyce.
MS SEROKE: Mrs Phasiwe, we truly apologise for keeping you waiting for so long, but I am sure you understand the situation. You have come here to tell us about your two
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sons, Pumsele and Putumela who were killed. Could you tell us about that? Please tell us what happened.
MRS PHASIWE: It was in 1991 on the 24th of September. Pumsele was shot. He had been with his friend Paul Poswa. I was at work at the time. I would sleep at work. On the Saturday, apparently they were shot by police. My neighbour told me that my child was shot. I was very upset because they told me on the way home that my child had been shot. The man that stayed at my house was not there. Then my neighbours came to talk about this.
They told me that he was with his friend. I asked where he was. They said the police had taken him. I then went to the hospital with the man I stayed with. We got here in Radon. We asked the guards if we could go in. They said we should wait for visitors hours. We then got in during the visitors hours. We asked the clerks for Pumsele. We said he had been shot at Carletonville and had been brought to the hospital by the police with his friend. We were then referred to Ward 18 where shot people were. We then saw Paul Poswa, his friend. Pumsele was not there. We asked him where Pumsele was. He said Pumsele was in hospital somewhere, but he does not know exactly where because they parted ways when they got into the hospital. We then asked the nurses. The nurses said we must go to the ICU. We asked the nurses at the ICU and he was there. They said one of us must go, one at a time. When we got there we found him lying there. He could not speak. The nurses asked what the children had done. I said I do not know, I just came from work. I just heard that he was at the hospital, he had been shot. I had been looking for him.
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They then asked if he had been ill previously. I said he suffered from epileptic fits. I then asked for the numbers at the ICU so that I could phone. I then asked who signed my son in. They said it was the police. They then gave me the phone number. I requested someone to phone my employers so that they could be informed about my son. I was not going to be able to go to work for a few days.
When I got to the township. I just want to revert back. When I found Pumsele at the ICU I went to Ward 18 to Paul Poswa who had been able to talk. I asked why they had been shot. I was together with my boyfriend, my live-in boyfriend. Paul Poswa then said they had been shot by the police. They had been sent to the shop to buy painkillers. When they were crossing 12 50, the police shot at them. That is why they were in hospital. I left food with Paul Poswa because my child could not eat.
We went back to the township. Paul Poswa's sister came to me apologising, saying that it is because she sent them to the shop that they were shot. She said she is the one who asked the police to come to the hospital. I said I do not blame you because even if I had been home, he could have been shot.
I said that on the Monday we should go to the ANC offices. We went to the offices to give a statement about our children. Even there I told them that I had not been home at the time.
At the hospital, Paul Poswa showed me Oupa Kleinboy. He told me that they were all together in the police van. He said that they were not all shot, but they had been in the van together.
We then went to the ANC offices. It was Oupa
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Kleinboy's mother and myself. We gave a statement at the ANC office.
On the Tuesday I went to the hospital together with some people from the Youth group. Pumsele was still in the same condition. He was trying to speak, but could not. He had a tube on his face. He asked me to remove it, but the nurses said I should not. I then asked if my child would live. They said he is in a critical condition. I then pulled the tube, I tried to pull the tube, but the nurses refused. I wanted to hear what he wanted to say.
I went back to Paul Poswa. Paul Poswa said he had been shot in his leg. I went to work. The children that had gone to visit with me went back to the township. I told my employers that I had gone to the hospital and that my child had not improved.
On the weekend my employers took me to the hospital. They would also phone the hospital to find out about my child. His condition improved. When I went to visit him again his condition had not improved that much. He stayed in ICU for a month. Me employers asked me if my child would be able to walk. I said I do not know. When I asked the nurses if I could see the X-rays, the nurses refused. My son asked me if I could look at the X-rays. I said that they are refusing and there nothing I could do.
My child then was taken to Ward 18 from ICU. When he got there, there were police that was guarding them. Each and every time I went there was no doctor. Sometimes it improved, sometimes it deteriorated. He then asked me if I had gone to the ANC offices. I told him we had gone. He told me that the police would take them somewhere that they do not know. The police asked me if Pumsele was an ANC
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member and I said yes, he is. I said that I do not care about the house at the time. I was talking to Pumsele.
Paul Poswa was released first from the hospital. Pumsele was left behind. He showed me that he had been shot in the stomach and the chest. His vertebral column was terribly effected. He showed me that his genitals were no longer there. He asked me when they were removed. I said I do not know, nobody told me anything. When I saw that my child's condition was really bad I went to court and my sons name was not on the list that was there for those that were going to talk.
I asked my employers to get me a lawyer. I doubted that he would live until January. That is why I needed a lawyer immediately. My employers got me Roland as a lawyer. I went with my employer to Roland to give a statement. I told them that I was not there when it happened. He asked for Paul's sister and I brought here there.
I then asked what is going to happen to my child because the court case starts on the sixth of January. The court case could not go on without my child, I said. Paul Poswa and Kleinboy were released from the hospital. When we went to court Roland gave my case to Oosthuizen from around. Oosthuizen took over. I told him that my child is not here and his name is not even listed. He said I must not worry. On his receipt he had written Paul Poswa. He said he wanted R550.00. We paid him R350.00.
On the 30th of April, the case was transferred to the Regional Court here in Carletonville. I was one of the people. My child's name was not on the list. They then said that they do not listen to any cases for children who are under the age of 16. During the case we were told to go KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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outside. Oosthuizen said he could not go on with the case because he was too scared that he would be killed by the police. He told us that we must get another lawyer if we want to be paid because we had won the case. I then asked about my child. I said I had paid him. I said I had paid him for my child's case, but nothing had been done about it. He then said that when my child is released from hospital, his case would be taken on.
I was told that too much time had elapsed for the case when I tried to pursue it. We sent to Mr Mtoya who was our lawyer in Klerksdorp. I sent my boyfriend to go because I was at work. When he got there, it was the 19th May. On the 19th of May 1992, is the date that lawyer Mtoya would be available. My boyfriend then presented his case. We went for two weeks. Two weeks elapsed when Mr Mtoya handled the case. After that we were told that he had given up on the case as well.
I continued visiting Pumsele at hospital. Pumsele then said the social workers had come to see me. Now they wanted to see me as the mother. I then wanted to be clear as what would happen with the social workers. He just said that, no, I have prepared everything for you. He said that he realised his condition is not going to improve at all. I went to Obros to Denzel. I told him about what my son had said about the social workers. I told him that I was called to the social workers. I wanted to know if they were not working for the Government of the day because if they were I could not go. I could not receive the money until it was clear why my child was shot because if he was guilty of something then he should go to jail.
I went to the social workers in Carletonville. They
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said that they are not the ones who had gone to Pumsele. Perhaps the social workers from the hospital. I did not pursue this.
On the 15th of June in 1992 Pumsele passed away. They did not tell us that my son had passed away. I had stopped working and I got a bit of money. In July we found out that Pumsele had passed away. He was not at the mortuary at the hospital. Dan was informed that the child had passed away. When we found out that Pumsele had passed away we went to Dan as well to tell them that on the 15th Pumsele had passed away. Dan then said he assumed that we had been told that the child had passed away.
We were asked to go to Roodepoort at the police station where some corpses were. We informed the Comrades that Pumsele had passed away and that we had no money to bury him. Dan made a donation. We first went to Roodepoort to try and find him and he was there. After that he was buried.
MS SEROKE: Are you going on to your second son, Putumela's case.
MRS PHASIWE: Yes.
MS SEROKE: Well, after you are finished with Putemela's case we will ask you questions about both your sons.
MRS PHASIWE: In 1993 I was working in town and I would sleep over. Putemela went to Jallie's house, his relative. When he got there Jallie was on leave. He asked Jallie's live-in girlfriend to go to 13 15 in the same area to look at the shack because he had some business there. When she asked him to do this, to stay over there for three days, I was not there.
He was called at night. He was called by a Comrade,
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Mangnane. His surname is Jikie. His first name is Mangnane. He said Putumela, somebody is calling you outside. Putumela was sleeping at the time and when he got up it was about half past nine. When he went to the front yard he was beaten up. He ran away. His friends saw him. When they saw him they said they had been coming from a night vigil. They went to Nomzimo to tell him that the male Comrades were beating Putumela up. Nomzimo called a Casper. When the police came together with the two children who reported the case they found Putumela lying down. He could speak at the time. They asked for his details. He told them who he was. He said he remembered two people that had been beating him up. He said it was Mangnane and Dolo. He could not remember the rest. They asked where they stayed. Dolo at S78 and Mangnane was staying at somebody elses house. They were not found where they stayed.
They found a Shangahn man. I do not know the name. They tool Putumela to hospital in Sybrand. He got there at about half past nine. Our relatives were informed that Putumela was at hospital. I had not come back from work. I was sleeping over at my workplace. I have forgotten which street my employer stayed in, but that is where I stayed over.
These children then went to the police station to give a statement saying that Putumela had passed away in hospital. When they had given a statement to the police that he had passed away in hospital, they went to Nomzimo informing her that Putumela had passed away. As the mother, I was not there. One of the children went to inform my employers that they do not know what happened to Putumela. He has been missing for a few days. They said that he had
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been taken by the ANC men. Apparently, they had been taken by a Casper.
These children informed my employers so that I could go home. I went home. I asked Dodo what happened with Putumela. Dodo then told me that the Comrades from Sonderwater and he has been missing since. Dodo said that Putumela said he would go to Sonderwater because he was not guilty of anything.
I thought, perhaps, I should come to the hospital at Rhatong, because I had found his brother there. I asked the nurses there. I went to ICU. They said that there is no such a person, but maybe I should go and look. I did not find him there. I went back to the township. I thought I would go to mortuaries and police stations because I did not where I would go.
MS SEROKE: Excuse me, Mam, I do not want to disturb you. Perhaps we could help you remember by asking you questions. We are going to try to help you by asking you questions because we have heard your story. We will ask about Pumsele first. Was Pumsele at school when this happened?
MRS PHASIWE: He was not at school because he had epileptic fits, I wrote a letter to the principal, I was requesting the Pumsele should take a years leave.
MS SEROKE: Was Pumsele a member of any political organisation?
MRS PHASIWE: He was an ANC member.
MS SEROKE: According to your statement you say that he was the Poswa guy and they had gotten shot. Why do you think they were shot because they were just walking? Was there something happening at the time in the township?
MRS PHASIWE: Apparently, they had been sent to buy
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painkillers and in the shack they were, apparently, they were put, some beef had been stolen
MS SEROKE: Were they suspected for having stolen the beef with Paul Poswa?
MRS PHASIWE: Well, probably, I was not there.
MS SEROKE: So, when you would go to hospital, Paul Poswa would inform you what happened and after you had seen your son improve, he would also tell you?
MRS PHASIWE: When I asked my son he said that, mom, I have been killed for something I know nothing of. He was just shot by the police whilst walking with Paul Poswa. After he had been shot, apparently, he said my blood has been shed, innocent blood has been shed. He showed me, even when he was bleeding that he bled for nothing.
When I got to ICU the nurses would ask what the children had done and a report was given. The report that we got from the nurses, a report they got the police was that these children were found stealing cows. These children said nothing about having stolen cows.
MS SEROKE: So, how does Oupa get involved in the whole case? Was he walking with them or what happened?
MRS PHASIWE: Apparently they were put together into the van, the three of them.
MS SEROKE: Okay, let us carry on to Putumela's case. According to your statement you say that Putumela was injured by people who suspected that he was a Comtsotsi. What is a Comtsotsi? What is it all about?
MRS PHASIWE: I do not know. I would just hear people saying the children are Comtsotsis.
MS SEROKE: You do not know what it means? We know what Comrade means, but if you take Comrade and Tsotsi and put
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them together, what does it mean?
MRS PHASIWE: I do not know.
MS SEROKE: You say that these children were Comrades from Sonderwater?
MRS PHASIWE: Yes, they were and they were men.
MS SEROKE: Do you know what else they were called, because there were Mazimzims and Gadaffis, there were Shangas.
MRS PHASIWE: They were the Shanga men. They were referred to as the Shangas and the Shangas would say that the children were Comtsotis.
MS SEROKE: So, each child was killed by the Shangas?
MRS PHASIWE: Yes, he was.
MS SEROKE: According to your statement you say that you have been effected badly by these incidents. You cannot even work. What do you live on?
MRS PHASIWE: I get given food by people who feel for me. I also have my own vegetation.
MS SEROKE: I am going to hand over to my colleagues, if they have any further questions. Thank you Mam.
CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Phasiwe, I just want to ask, I just want to be clear on Pumsele's death. He was shot in August of 1991. Is that right?
MRS PHASIWE: Pumsele was shot on the 24th of September 1991.
CHAIRPERSON: And he died in July of the next year?
MRS PHASIWE: Yes Sir, on the 15th of July the following year.
CHAIRPERSON: And all that time was he in hospital?
MRS PHASIWE: He was in hospital for eight months. On the ninth month he passed away.
CHAIRPERSON: Did he pass away at home or in the hospital?
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MRS PHASIWE: At the hospital, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I have no other questions. Joyce. Mrs Phasiwe thank you very much for coming. You have lost two sons in a very short time and that is very painful. We have noted your request to the Truth Commission to find out who was responsible for the death of your sons and we will be communicating with you in due course, where it is possible to find this out. Thank you very much. Is there anything you want to say in closing?
MRS PHASIWE: I just want to thank the Truth Commission because I knew I would never heal. At least now I have hope. If I could please get tombstones for my sons to commemorate them.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mrs Phasiwe. That brings us to the end of todays hearings. I said in the morning that one person decided not to come today. Tomorrow we will start at nine o' clock again and most of the people who are coming tomorrow are coming from Phokeng and Randfontein. Thank you very much indeed for being with us today. Can I just ask people to stand while the witnesses go out.
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