CHAIRPERSON: Before you, before I ask Mr Wynand Malan to lead your evidence could I please ask you who is with you on your right.
MRS MAYISA: This is my son, he is my son.
CHAIRPERSON: And his name.
MRS MAYISA: Josia is his name.
CHAIRPERSON: Josia. Thanks very much and if I could please ask you to take the oath. You do not need to stand.
MAMATSHI L MAYISA: (Duly sworn in, states).
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Wynand Malan, thank you.
MR MALAN: Good afternoon Mrs Mayisa. We have had the sharing of the history by Mr Nkabinde. I do not think there is any need for me to say anything more at this stage and I will appreciate you sharing your story with us. You have given us a statement, we have read it, but for the benefit of everyone present if you would just in your own words tell us the circumstances that led up to the death of your husband.
MRS MAYISA: My husband left me. As Mr Nkabinde has mentioned he went to town and came back, took a shower and decided to take a nap.
MR MALAN: Please take your time. Do not feel pressured, pressurised in any way and when you manage to get yourself together you may continue. We will be waiting for you.
MRS MAYISA: He took a nap.
INTERPRETER: The speaker is not quite audible.
MR MALAN: Sorry, may I interrupt you. May I just interrupt you. Can you just bring the microphone closer to the witness please. Still more if you can.
MRS MAYISA: He took his nap and I told him, alerted him that the Inkatha was coming and he woke up. We looked through the window and we could see that group approaching our house and they got to our house. They had bottles, nip bottles and they started attacking us, throwing those bottles and stones over our house and we were inside the house at that time the two of us. Suddenly the house was set alight. The roof burst open and I decided to go outside to ask as to what was their problem and why they were attacking us. As I tried to go outside they attacked me throwing stones at me and we decided to run away. Outside there by, there was a car parked and he got inside then. I went to the neighbours house and still looked at my house to find out exactly what was their intention.
They were calling each other, yelling at each other saying hey, come this side, he is this side. I saw Sipho Mpopo, I saw my boy inside looking for my husband and they were peeping through the door. He decided to take another turn, my husband, and they went to him. They got hold of him, they took him with. There was a small route that connected to our house and they took that route. I do not know what happened thereafter. After quite some time my son, the one who is sitting next to me, came and told me that my husband was lying down there, the father and he tried to pick him up, but he failed. Josia, I will ask you to go further.
MR MALAN: May I just ask whether a statement was made by your son? Have you made a statement in connection with your father's death Mr Mayisa.
MR MAYISA: Yes, I did, I did.
MR MALAN: That statement is not before us, but we will try and trace it. If you would like, briefly, to continue we will appreciate it. Yes, would you just mind then also to stand and take the oath before you give the evidence. Do you have an objection to taking the oath?
MR MAYISA: No objection.
JOSIA MAYISA: (Duly sworn in, states).
MR MALAN: Thank you very much. You may sit and you may proceed.
MR MAYISA: I will carry on where my mum left. That is where I found my dad lying down there and it was my friend who called me and said hey, your dad is lying down here. We rushed there immediately and when we got there he was, as I said, he was lying down. We picked him up and Sipho Mpopo they came suddenly and started assaulting me. I ran away and there was this van that came and followed us in this route, small route I talked about. I ran, we got to the rail line and there were police there. I ran towards the police and de Vries was there. I informed de Vries about my father's attack and told me that we should go to Priscilla Jana and your father is the one who has been telling us not to interfere with the location stuff. I went back, I left the police alone. I went to Magogo and I told my mother, I went to mum and I told my mum that I think dad has passed away now. We slept at the neighbours house. In the morning I went back to the police station. I met Basson, the sergeant. The van that had my, that took my dad was parked there in the police station and I told him that we should go approach the drivers of that van, because they should have the insight of the whole thing and Malohlo was there and Matini and they were washing out the van, because it was bloody. I asked what is this blood for and they said, no, we had dogs inside. We heard lambs inside so, the sheep, so that blood is coming from the sheep and I merely was asking. I knew the truth, I knew that the blood was my fathers.
At about four in the afternoon I met Richard and he told me that Mr Mayisa is down the road in, next to Kwarine. I asked him where is Kwarine. He told me that he was there lying down and covered by corrugated iron and we got there. We found out that he was burnt. They set him alight. We left the scene and went back to the police station and we told them where the corpse was. They followed us and took pictures of my father's body. I asked what is the next step. They said we should leave. ... there and we wanted to know what was going to be done to him. They called one another and now suddenly they started caucusing and we ask him, we asked the police what is going to happen of my dad and they insisted to tell us that we should leave and leave him alone.
Now on the funeral day, even just before, on the 27th of January we went to the school, school hall and then we went as a family to bury him. ... just did not care about what was happening. We approached a police and told them that they should give us this day to bury our father and they insisted that they will not help us in any way, but we were adamant. Finally we carried on. We went to the grave site. When we got back they started attacking us. Now they attacked the combi that I was driving. Martin Zondo, Ndogo and Modise. I approached de Vries to tell him that he was present when my combi was being attacked and he told me to go to Priscilla Jana and I went to her and those were convicted, the three of them.
De Vries and Malinga came to me and said they wanted to me to submit the statement and I told them that I went to see them and they took me for granted and told me that I should go and see Priscilla Jana, because my father was the one who was saying we should not or they should not interfere with the locations matters. In June we were all taken as a family by de Vries and de Vries said myself and Nkabinde are, want to retaliate and want to kill the people who killed my father. I asked Malinga as to what was happening. He said he could not say a word to me and I am also losing my job as they are saying I am ANC member and I cannot carry on the operation effectively. I decided, no, let it be, whatever can happen. Mum take over, there is nothing more I want to say.
MR MALAN: Thank you very much Mr Mayisa. We have some background information. Also in our background information it says that eventually certain people were prosecuted and convicted of the murder of your husband, Mrs Mayisa, and that is what I heard your son to be saying now. Is that correct?
MRS MAYISA: That is correct.
MR MALAN: Was it a number of only three people eventually charged and convicted or were there more people?
MR MAYISA: Three were convicted regarding the combi attack and it was because I insisted that those three were there and I saw them. They were only convicted after I insisted that they were there. Martin Zondo, Ndogo and Modise are the three.
MR MALAN: Right. The name Lucas Mbonane, is that person known to you?
MR MAYISA: Yes, I know him.
MR MALAN: I am not sure, is Mr Mbonane here? He made a statement to us and he is still scheduled to talk later. He is in the hall so we will hear more from him.
MS SEROKE: Lucas Mbonane.
MR MALAN: Lucas Mbonane.
MS SEROKE: Has since died.
MR MALAN: Has he since died?
MS SEROKE: He died in March.
MR MALAN: Okay, sorry, I have just been informed that Lucas has since died and that his father is here. Thank you very much. Mrs Mayisa, Mr Nkabinde also informed us here that the period 85, 86 was very confused with this division, that people really did not know who was where and why especially with the JMC that he referred to, the Joint Management Centre that was developing here with some of the councillors, some of the community people, individuals and others involved on that side. It seems as if part of the community then or some of the people in the community supported the idea of removal, supported Chief Minister Skosana and others ideas and that your late husband, Mr Nkabinde and others were really resisting it working for the interests as they saw it. In your statement you refer to vigilantes, you refer to them as Inkatha. At some place you even refer to them as freedom fighters, I think on page, well that is not important at the moment, but you even refer to them as freedom fighters. Can you tell us a little as to how you understood the division at the time? Was it clear or was it for you too a bit of a confused situation.
MRS MAYISA: They were calling themselves that. When the attacked they said they were Inkatha people.
MR MALAN: Did you understand that to mean that they were members of the Inkatha Freedom Party or was it just a name for the vigilantes here?
MRS MAYISA: That much I do not know. I would not know.
MR MALAN: Then, just one question outstanding is the issue of the family situation. Did your husband have two wives? Is it yourself ...
MRS MAYISA: Yes, we are two. She is here also. Stand up. Stand up.
MR MALAN: Thank you very much Mrs Mayisa. You may sit down again. And you also in your statement tell us that you have, between the two of you, 17 children that your husband left. Can you more or less tell us their ages, how many of them are still young that are still at school?
MRS MAYISA: That would be quite a challenge.
MR MALAN: Then maybe let me not bother you with that then here, but if we can get the particulars, because that is very important for us to consider when we talk about what we do after the Truth Commission and in what way we assist people and trying to find out exactly what their needs are. So I do not want to put you in a spot and, ...
MRS MAYISA: Okay.
MR MALAN: ... but I take it that there is some information that we need to get from you and I would ask our staff with you there to see to it that we just find a way of catching up on that information too. Mrs Mayisa, this is a, it remains very, very difficult. One does not really know where closure comes into the process. We will, probably in this country, still have to live for quite some time closer to each other and trying to understand and really explain the past and getting to a peace with our past, but for the moment from my side thank you very much. I have no further questions. My colleagues may have and I hand over to Mr Lewin again.
CHAIRPERSON: Thanks Wynand. Joyce Seroke.
MS SEROKE: Mrs Mayisa and your son you have just said that you saw people who assaulted your husband. You made mention of the name here, Sipho Gadebe and Maboy Zondo who is late, here in the TRC. We always want to know from the statement about the names that have been mentioned so that we could notify the people who have been implicated, whose names have been implicated. Now, we did notify, but they could not respond. Maybe we could have even gotten a chance to even give Sipho Gadebe to say his part of the story. He was notified, but never responded, but I would like to know from you is that of Sipho Gadebe if he is still around.
MR MAYISA: Yes, Sipho Gadebe is around. Yes, he is a CID, he is a policeman.
CHAIRPERSON: Could we have quiet please. Could we please have quiet.
MS SEROKE: What is he doing now?
MR MAYISA: He is a CID, he is a policeman.
MS SEROKE: Is he with the police force?
MR MAYISA: Yes, yes, all those who committed these atrocities are policeman even as I am speaking.
MS SEROKE: Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Joyce. Tom Manthata.
MR MANTHATA: My question is has since there been quiet in Leandra ever since Baba Mayisa was killed? Was there peace in Leandra?
MR MAYISA: You mean at home or in the location. It is quiet, it is stable in the location.
MR MANTHATA: And at home of all those children Baba Mayisa has left, how many of them are working and how many of them are still at school?
MR MAYISA: No one is working. There is no one at home and we have our own houses as well.
MR MANTHATA: Perhaps the question should have been how many are still with Mama Mayisa and how many of you are independent now?
MR MAYISA: We are five, those of us who are independent.
MR MANTHATA: And you help maintain the two families?
MR MAYISA: Yes.
MR MANTHATA: No further questions, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Wynand Malan again.
MR MALAN: Mrs Mayisa or Mr Mayisa, any one of you would be welcome to answer. What is still confusing a little is that in the statement Mrs Mayisa says that the tension was due to the vigilantes, she refers to them or the Inkatha or whatever, did not want to know anything about chieftaincy. Now that is foreign to my experience, because really the struggle, the liberation movement, the youth were more opposed, generally, to chieftaincy than were vigilantes or councillors or the structures. So this is an out of the ordinary relationship where the Chief found himself on the side of the youth movement and the liberation forces. Was it indeed something to do with the chieftainship, I just want to make sure or was it simply the alignment of the specific Chief with the liberation struggle?
MR MAYISA: Yes, why I am saying this they were fighting for freedom.
MR MALAN: And Chief Ampie also happened to be fighting for freedom?
MR MAYISA: That is correct.
MR MALAN: It was not a case of the vigilantes being against the concept of the Chiefs, because that is one of the statements that were made as the statement was taken, but I just want to make sure that that is not the meaning of the statement. The vigilantes did not oppose the institution of Chiefs, they opposed Chief Ampie?
MR MAYISA: No.
MR MALAN: Okay, thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON: Joyce, Tom.
MS SEROKE: I am finished.
MR MANTHATA: No further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Ma Mayisa, I would just like to say two things, because the story as it comes through to me is one of a very personal grief leaving aside the politics of the whole situation and the fact that your husband, your late husband was regarded as very much a community leader, but the story that you have told us at a personal level is a very terrifying one think, because you have described very graphically and your son Josia has helped to show how, at a personal level, the suffering and the pain can, is felt in situations like this and I think ...
MRS MAYISA: Even now I am facing problems with the children.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we well understand that. I would like to take up the point that Wynand Malan has made that in many ways this is an example of how far we are still to go in going along a road where communities live in peace together, but I would like to salute you for coming forward this afternoon in the way that you have done, because what you have done is made a contribution towards that. It is still very painful, it is still very raw, it is still, as we can see from the public response, it is something that is still very much talked about in the community and is very important to the community, but by your coming forward you have made a contribution in how we can all move forward and how you particularly in this community can do so and work towards, as we are trying to do through the Commission, work towards a situation where communities do live in peace through understanding the past. So I would like to thank both of you very much for coming forward. Thank you.
