CHAIRPERSON: ... to tell us about your son Aubrey. If you could please just tell us who you have with you.
REV MOKWENA: I am with Aubrey's aunt.
CHAIRPERSON: She is welcome as well and before I ask Wynand Malan to lead you in your evidence could you please stand and take the oath.
TARZANI S MOKWENA: (Duly sworn in, states).
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much and I would ask Commissioner Wynand Malan please to lead your evidence. Thank you.
MR MALAN: Good afternoon Reverend Mokwena. Before I start will you please just tell us your surname in your statement is spelt with the M O K W E N A which is the North Sotho.
REV MOKWENA: I am Simon Mokwena.
MR MALAN: Yes, how do you spell your name? Is it M O K W or M O K O?
REV MOKWENA: M K W A N A.
MR MALAN: Alright, so I presume that is also what our records should reflect as the correct spelling of Aubrey's name?
REV MOKWENA: Yes, that is correct.
MR MALAN: Thank you very much. Reverend Mokwena we have received your statement. You have filled out our TRC statement document, but I would though ask you to just give us in your own words a summary of the story. We have read all the information, but if you would share with us we will appreciate that.
REV MOKWENA: On this particular day, it was in the morning and the children were fighting in the streets. The situation was volatile. Then in the morning Aubrey went away together with the other children. They went to the new bar that has been built and when they got there we heard later on, because I was at home, his mother had gone to Johannesburg, and I heard that there were some youths who had been shot and I remained at home. Aubrey's mother came and asked as to whether we heard about the children who had been shot. I told her that I had heard. Then we proceeded and on that particular day he did not sleep at home.
The following morning I went around looking for him and as I was looking for him I came across Mr Mahlangu and I wanted to find out from Mr Mahlangu as to whether Aubrey was not amongst the children who had been injured or shot. He said he did not see him, but he had seen some of them, but there is another unknown male who had been shot and they did not know as to whose child that was and I proceeded to the police station. When I got to the police station I got some soldiers who were standing outside the police station and they pushed me with the butts of their guns and they asked me as to what I wanted. I said I had come to look for my son and they said I should go inside the police station. When I got inside the police station I came across the Chief CID Officer and he instructed me to go and fetch the birth certificate.
I went home to fetch the birth certificate and when I came back he was talking to the soldiers. They were arguing as to which person was I referring to and one of the soldiers said it is the one that I shot who was on top of a tank, I shot him. This is what this soldier was saying and I was taken from that point. We went to Evanda. When we got to the Evanda they said I should open the drawers of the mortuary and identify him. I positively identified him and when I got him I asked this particular policeman that i was with as to why these children were shot, because it is alleged that they were going inside a bar. Why did he not arrest them and put them in custody rather than killing them. His response was that he did not want to discuss that matter with me, because these children were sent by us as the parents to go and wreck havoc and I came back home.
When I got home his mother was already present and whilst we were sitting there some policemen came into the house. They started assaulting all the people who were there especially the youth asking them as to what they wanted and they started kicking the others who were there as well as the mother. The mother was sitting on top of the mattress as a sign of mourning. Ever since then we never saw each other, but she was quite disturbed by the incident and I think she was mentally disturbed after her son had died. Up till today I am not staying with her and we buried the boy. That is all I can say about the incident.
MR MALAN: Thank you Reverend Mokwena. May I just ask you one other formal question. What is your own date off birth? When were you born?
REV MOKWENA: I was born in 1948.
MR MALAN: On the 29th of March?
REV MOKWENA: That is correct.
MR MALAN: I just want to correct our own information here and the, can you tell us when Aubrey was born, what his date of birth was? Can you read it from this certificate Joyce? Which is the date of birth here?
MS SEROKE: 16th.
MR MALAN: Is that the date of birth?
REV MOKWENA: He was born in 1969.
MS SEROKE: 25th September.
MR MALAN: What is that 9/12/69.
REV MOKWENA: Yes, that is correct, on the 25th of September 1969.
MR MALAN: And this one? Okay, thank you very much. Mrs Seroke has helped me here. We have now his date of birth as the 25th of September 1969 from the Baptismal Certificate. Okay, then just one other further more formal question. In the statement you mention that your son was a member of the African National Congress, at some other stage in your statement you talk about him.
REV MOKWENA: Yes, that is correct, he was a member.
MR MALAN: At some other stage you talk about him being a member of the ANC Youth League, but the ANC was still a banned organisation and did not operate openly. Was he part of underground structures or was he part of another organisation by another name which was sort of ...
REV MOKWENA: Yes, they were working underground, because at that time it was still banned.
MR MALAN: Okay, was he a member of any of the underground structures formally? If you say he was working underground, was he in any way a member of the ANC?
REV MOKWENA: They were Comrades at that time, but I do not know which particular structure that he belonged to.
MR MALAN: And then you said in your evidence this morning, Reverend Mokwena, that the situation was volatile and the children were fighting that morning in the streets.
REV MOKWENA: Yes, that is correct.
MR MALAN: Can you give us more information on that? What was the nature of the volatility, what was the cause and what were they fighting about and with whom were they fighting?
REV MOKWENA: I think they were fighting for the building of the schools as well as houses at that time.
MR MALAN: If you say fighting you are not talking of physical fighting in the streets then?
REV MOKWENA: No, they were not physically fighting, but they were boycotting classes and conducting some boycotts, but not physically fighting.
MR MALAN: So when I heard you saying that the children were fighting in the streets was that a demonstration that you talked about that morning?
REV MOKWENA: That is correct.
MR MALAN: Your information as to the flow of events that day, you got it from someone else. Who told you the story?
REV MOKWENA: I was told by the people who were there who witnessed the incident taking place, because at that time I was at home. They told me that some youths had been shot also. I never went there to witness the incident.
MR MALAN: Reverend Mokwena, just as to the exact circumstances, I do not know how much you will be able to tell us or whether we may have to look at some of the other witnesses to get more information. In your statement, your written statement to us you say that the police went out and the children were chased away and then you say the children came back and broke the bar lounge and got inside and when they were inside the police came and they shot them.
REV MOKWENA: That is correct, that is true.
MR MALAN: Were the police on the outside and the children on the inside when they were shot?
REV MOKWENA: According to the information that I got they said that the policemen came, they blocked the doorway with their Hippo and they got inside the bar. When they got inside the bar they instructed some other children to get inside the Hippo and they started shooting the children. The other children who had run away were accosted by the policemen who were on top of the Caspar and some shot the children whilst they were inside the bar.
MR MALAN: Do you have any of the names or could you give us any of the names of some of the other children that died on that day?
REV MOKWENA: The one I remember was Rossie, Thomas. I do not remember the other ones, but Aubrey was amongst them. I think there were about four if I am not mistaken who were shot on that particular day.
MR MALAN: Reverend Mokwena, thank you very much. We have not yet really had an opportunity to investigate the circumstances surrounding the story of Aubrey. As you know the statement was only recently taken, that is towards the end of last year, but we will see what further information we can get and eventually you will be hearing from us through our findings and report and we will keep you informed. Thank you for telling your story.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Wynand. Joyce Seroke.
MS SEROKE: Mr Mokwena, in your statement you have pointed out that the children broke into the bar lounge. What did they want in the bar lounge? You said they were toy-toying outside and what were they doing inside the bar lounge?
REV MOKWENA: I do not know. I have no truth about that matter and I cannot comment on that aspect, because they were climbing on top of the tank and that is where Aubrey was shot, on top of the tank.
MS SEROKE: And you said at that time when the children saw the police they ran away. You said the other police got into the bar lounge and hid themselves in there.
REV MOKWENA: As the policemen were hiding themselves in there when the children came back not realising that the policemen were inside the bar lounge that is when they were shot.
MS SEROKE: You said when you went to look for Aubrey they asked you about the certificate. What certificate was that?
REV MOKWENA: They were referring to the birth certificate. They said I should fetch the birth certificate and bring it with and I got it from home then I brought it back. That is when I was taken to Evanda, Evanda Mortuary. That is where I positively identified him.
MS SEROKE: Was he attending school at that time?
REV MOKWENA: Yes, he was. He was in standard five at that time.
MS SEROKE: We thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Tom Manthata.
MR MANTHATA: Mr Mokwena, we talk about four other children who were shot. Are we saying they were shot dead or they were just wounded by bullet shots?
REV MOKWENA: They all died.
MR MANTHATA: They all died and have their families made statements, do you know?
REV MOKWENA: Yes, they submitted statements and they are present at the moment.
MR MANTHATA: Okay, thank you. When the children were, as you say they were fighting to have schools and houses, to whom did they direct their complaints?
REV MOKWENA: They were boycotting and I would not pinpoint a particular person that they were fighting with.
MR MANTHATA: Yes, but I mean as parents when children said they want houses, they want schools, there must be a specific office or person that they should be directing their complaints to.
REV MOKWENA: It means they were fighting with the councillors or the then councillors.
MR MANTHATA: What about the parents being left without houses, being left with children without schools, what did the parents say on those?
REV MOKWENA: What I could say is that the parents were at home. They were never involved in these, but it is the children or the youth who were actively involved.
MR MANTHATA: Yes, I want to know how did the children know that they have no homes when the parents themselves seem to be contented and not worried about having homes or not?
REV MOKWENA: What I can say is they were concerned, but they did not know how to address the problem. It is the youth that took the initiative to boycott.
MR MANTHATA: I see. For these four children who died was there ever a post mortem conducted or an inquest into the cause of their deaths?
REV MOKWENA: There was no formal autopsy that was done that I know of, but I know that they died of gunshot wounds.
MR MANTHATA: And there was never a court case to say who killed the people, the circumstances under which they were killed?
REV MOKWENA: No, nothing was done, absolutely nothing.
MR MANTHATA: But if I understand you well the community could have been structured to have an organisation that could have followed this whole issue up, because I do know whether this is the same. Was there no lawyer that was used by community of Evanda at the time? ... in terms of.
REV MOKWENA: No, there is nothing of that sort that was done, but there are some people who came and they were investigating as to how the children got injured. They took statements, but I have no personal knowledge thereof. It is what I heard happened.
MR MANTHATA: And nobody ever went to the police station to lay a complaint that the police were in the township, children were killed, we want to know, okay, just a follow-up of that sort of thing.
REV MOKWENA: There is a person who went to the police especially after the funeral and during the time of the night vigil, is Mr Mayisa. Mr Mayisa is the one who went to even release some of the children who were held in custody and the police continued with their assaults especially during the night vigil. Then Mr Mayisa went to fetch the ones who were in custody, but he has since died.
MR MANTHATA: Who is Mr Mayisa? Who was he?
REV MOKWENA: He was a ...
MR MANTHATA: Is that the Chief Mayisa?
REV MOKWENA: Yes, that is Chief Mayisa.
MR MANTHATA: Okay, thanks. Okay. No further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mokwena if I could just ask two questions. This, the date that we have been given for this incident was 1986. Was this in any way a tenth anniversary of what had happened in Soweto ten years before?
REV MOKWENA: It could be like that. I am not sure.
CHAIRPERSON: And then a final question. In your statement you put down some actual suggestions both in terms of a request for a tombstone for your son and secondly for a suggestion for building youth centres. Would you like to say a little bit more about that?
REV MOKWENA: Yes, that is true. I would like the Government to compensate me with regard to my son's death, because he died during the struggle. So I regard him as a victim of human rights violations.
CHAIRPERSON: Could you explain a little bit more about the suggestion for youth centres.
REV MOKWENA: We would like to be compensation about, with our, with regard to the death of our children. I lost money and I am not working, I am not employed and I spent a lot of money burying him and we never got a reason as to why they were killed. We expect the Government to do something about it.
CHAIRPERSON: And do you think that a fitting memorial would also be for some youth centres to be built within the community?
REV MOKWENA: Yes, I feel that we can be satisfied if that could happen or if it could be done, because we believe that we are also victims, because they died during the struggle and we popped out our monies in order to bury them.
CHAIRPERSON: Reverend Mokwena, I would just like to, sorry, Tom.
MR MANTHATA: Yes, Reverend Mokwena, for our story to be complete I think we need to know, you remember when I asked a question against whom did they direct their struggle and/or to whom did they take their complaints, you know, for as you talked about the councillors. What did they do against the councillors to get the answer that they could have been after?
REV MOKWENA: Yes, they did approach the councillors and thereafter it is when they staged these boycotts I suspected that this was due to the response of the councillors. They were busy building bars, bottle stores and all these structures that we did not need in the community, instead of building houses and schools.
MR MANTHATA: In this anger that the children were in did they kill any councillor, did they burn any councillor's house or business?
REV MOKWENA: According to my knowledge not on that particular day, if I remember well.
MR MANTHATA: But do you remember on other days?
REV MOKWENA: Yes, it happened at other instances, but I have forgotten the councillor's name. They broke into the house. If I am not mistaken I think that was the day on which they were shot, but I am not really sure. Then thereafter they were shot.
MR MANTHATA: What has since become of those, of the councillors that they were fighting against?
REV MOKWENA: Nothing happened.
MR MANTHATA: What I want to know is are those councillors still within the community and how does the community live together with those councillors?
REV MOKWENA: No, others are in power now, but the councillors have since left their respective positions.
MR MANTHATA: Thank you Reverend Mokwena.
CHAIRPERSON: Reverend Mokwena, thank you very much for coming. I think you yourself through your own experiences, through your own pain you have actually put your finger on it completely when you said that we asked the question why were these people not arrested, what was the need to go and shoot them. This is a story, it is of no consolation to you, but it is a story that we have heard many, many times of a confrontation between the police, the local police and the youth where police open fire and children are killed. Where they are, yes they are protesting, yes they have grievances, but in the protest they get killed. I think that, as you have said, this is something that is senseless, it is something without reason and it is certainly something that we, as a Commission, will try and recommend, because what we are trying to do through this process is to ensure that we do not have the same type of culture where this sort of thing is not only possible, but it is actually fairly regular. It is, we are moving towards a country, a culture which is completely different and where children do not get killed so senselessly. So we would like to thank you very much for coming. Thank you.
