CHAIRPERSON: We have Kgotlana Chauke with us and the, Dr Randera will assist you in telling your story, but I would like to welcome you and I would like to ask Ms Joyce Seroke first to help you to give the oath. Will you please stand and raise your hand.
MS SEROKE: The story I'm about to tell is the truth and nothing else but the truth so help me God.
MS CHAUKE:: So help me God to tell the truth.
CHAIRPERSON:: Thank-you very much and now over to Dr Randera.
DR RANDERA:: Mrs Chauke good afternoon, to you and to your friend.
MS CHAUKE:: Good afternoon Sir.
DR RANDERA:: Ms Chauke you are taking us back to Hammanskraal in 1986. You have given us a very full history, you are a member of the UDF at the time and you were arrested with some colleagues comrades from your area Stinkbaken is that right?
MS CHAUKE:: That is true Sir.
DR RANDERA:: Just tell us what happened, what were the circumstances and proceed after that, thank-you.
MS CHAUKE:: In 1976 on the 27th I think it was either June or July the police looked for me for a long time at home they used to come, they didn't find me they got my siblings and my husband that's my younger brother. They said they were looking for, then they said I am not there I went to a certain place called Mabopane when I returned home, at home on the 27th they arrested me. After that they immediately assaulted me there then from there they put me in their van. I remember police Kavambo they took me to Temba police station, there I was tortured they put a sackcloth on my head they kicked me, after that they took me to the cell with some comrades. They took us to Bedwang police station we stayed in Bedwang. At home they were looking for us but they couldn't find us. After Bedwang we were taken to (...indistinct) prison. Whilst we were still at (...indistinct) prison lawyers came looking for us. They found us there. I was injured. When I was trying to pass water I was bleeding. When we went to court before, they said they are looking for guns, because I'm a communist, but I said I'm not working with the communist they said we know there are people that told us that you are working with the communists, but I said I don't know anything, they I told them that we'll meet in court, they returned me to court.
Whilst we were in prison our comrades used to come and visit us. In September on the 19th in 1976, they give us a free bail, we stayed at home. The police used to come at home looking for me they were asking me about my fellow comrades but I told them that I've nobody that I'm working with. They told me that they will get me one day because I'm difficult. After that they said myself and together with the comrades, they said to us we knew that we have killed a person. Then they told us that we will meet in court. A certain policeman called Kavangwa was the one person making those accusation. Whilst we were attending that court case in 1987 on 5th of May, that is where we were sentenced for death it was myself, Modise and Thomas Makobele we were taken to Ryghond we stayed in 1986 in Ryghond from 1987. They are not with me now and that is disturbing me because those police I want to know them, why did they take me to prison, because I nearly died for something that I didn't know.
DR RANDERA:: Thank-you Mr Chauke. I just want to ask you a few questions. The charges that were laid against you, what, that you were sentenced to death for was it just the burning and the death of this young woman or also possessing arms?
MR CHAUKE:: That's true Sir.
DR RANDERA:: Which one, sorry, just killing the young woman? MR CHAUKE: They said to you we killed somebody.
DR RANDERA:: O.K. Were there other deaths in Stinkwater of a similar nature or was that the only one? Were there, were there other people burnt to death at the time? What was happening in Stinkwater that this young woman was burnt to death?
MR CHAUKE:: Many people were burnt to death but I don't know how many.
DR RANDERA:: And this question of you having arms in your house? Were you a member of the ANC underground at the time?
MR CHAUKE:: I was a member of UDF underground.
DR RANDERA:: Can you just tell us a little more about that, why do you say the UDF underground, because UDF was a legal organisation?
MR CHAUKE:: The time when ANC was banned I was a member of UDF. UDF was active then before ANC was unbanned. My friends were members of Umkonto We Sizwe.
DR RANDERA:: Were you talking about Daisy, your other friends? MR CHAUKE: I'm talking about other friends.
DR RANDERA:: Who were sentenced to death with you?
MR CHAUKE:: No sir.
DR RANDERA:: You also mentioned towards the end of your statement that there were another couple who were arrested with you. Sarah and Stephen Magaja, now they were given bail before you because they could afford the money, but they were not sentenced with you, what happened to them?
MR CHAUKE:: Sarah Magaja was released, because whilst we were on trial her child died, and we were left with her husband and he got a bail and then he was fined R800,00 and two years suspended sentence.
DR RANDERA:: Mr Chauke can I just understand, you were sentenced, certainly you were tortured before your, before your sentence, and then you were sentenced to death, what is your expectation from the Truth Commission?
MR CHAUKE:: The Truth Commission may help me in other way than again it should, it should help those people who are now maybe and because we were struggling together until that we were liberated and then we have now a new government, and the government has went back to the hands of the black people.
DR RANDERA:: Let me put the question another way. Have you come to ask to try and clear your name once and for all, because you still believe to-day that you were sentenced unfairly?
MR CHAUKE:: That is true Sir.
DR RANDERA:: Then what do you do now? I know you have two children, what is your work?
MR CHAUKE:: I'm not working.
DR RANDERA:: I have no further questions, thank-you chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:: Dr Ally.
DR ALLY:: Mr Chauke on, you were found guilty of murder in that court case, on what did they base this, were there witnesses? When you were tortured did they make you sign a confession, what did the judge or magistrate, I would imagine that it is a judge in this case, on what basis did he find you guilty?
MR CHAUKE:: I was found guilty because those I was with were those who, its that what its based on as an accessory to the fact, but I said I was not with them on that day.
DR ALLY:: Was it a under this, what they refer to as common cause? You say that you were part of a group responsible for setting this woman alight.
MR CHAUKE:: Yes that's true.
DR ALLY:: Were there witnesses, were there people who actually said, pointed you out and said, that you were part of this group, or how could he come to that conclusion?
MR CHAUKE:: When I remember the state witnesses said I was there.
DR ALLY:: So there was state witnesses, were these, who were the state witnesses, people who had also been involved and decided to become state witnesses or who are these state witnesses?
MR CHAUKE:: No, we were arrested three of us, those people who were bought by the police, because this, this lady whom they said were burned, she was staying in that house where the state witnesses were staying.
DR ALLY:: So those state witnesses they claimed that they had seen you and the other people who were with you, that's what they said?
MR CHAUKE:: Yes that's true.
DR ALLY:: And did you ever make a confession, you are saying that you were tortured, that you were (indistinct) that you were kicked, did they make you sign anything while you were in jail, confessing to, to being present, or to being involved?
MR CHAUKE:: When I was tortured and assaulted I did confess that I was there, but I told them that I will, but they said that I should make a statement to them though I told them I would make my statement in court.
DR ALLY:: But you didn't, did you sign any statements? Did you make any written statements? which you didn't sign?
MR CHAUKE:: Yes that's true I did sign that statement, because I was injured then.
DR ALLY:: Was that statement used in court, was it produced in court? In your court case? When you appeared in court was that statement presented as proof of your involvement? Did the police bring that statement to court?
MR CHAUKE:: Yes, that's true they took it to court and it was used in court.
DR ALLY:: And your lawyers, you were represented by lawyers for human rights, is that correct?
MR CHAUKE:: We were represented by a lawyer called Seuns.
DR ALLY:: Now you say that you were found guilty, three of you and you were then sentenced to death, and you were sent and placed in death row.
MR CHAUKE:: That is true.
DR ALLY:: And you were in death row for five, six years? How long?
MR CHAUKE:: I was sentenced in 1987 then I was released in 1993 on the 8th February.
DR ALLY:: Can you tell us a little bit about what it was like to be on death row, because we have heard from, from people about that experience. Can you just, if you want to, if its too difficult for you to want to go through, then we will understand but if you'd like to share some of that experiences of what it must be like to be on death row.
MR CHAUKE:: I felt that I'm not a person I'm like a bit caged you would not live in peace knowing that any time when you see people who were hanged you cannot be happy. Other time you be kind because you know that you are expecting to die at any time. If they said to you that we are going to hang you to-day there is no way you can run to.
DR ALLY:: Then eventually in 1993 you say you were reprieve and you were granted indemnity, was that under the indemnification act at the time? Or when there was negotiations and talks taking place between the ANC and the then government, the National Party government?
MR CHAUKE:: Yes that's true.
DR ALLY:: Was this on the basis that, of you being a member of the ANC or do you remember the circumstances of your being given indemnity?
MR CHAUKE:: When I was released they told me that I should stay at home and that they give me limitations where I should go and where I shouldn't go, and then all the time they should find me home when they come.
DR ALLY:: And presently do you still have any, are there any restrictions on your movements or
MR CHAUKE:: No I've no restrictions now sir.
DR ALLY:: Thank-you very much for coming to speak to us about, what I'm sure is, was a very difficult time for you, thank-you.
CHAIRPERSON:: Mrs Seroke.
MS SEROKE:: You said when you came from jail you found that your children and your wife were not available at home and your wife was staying with another man. Did you ever try to go and see them? That is your children.
MR CHAUKE:: I only saw my children get changed. I sent my uncle, because of our tradition we used to send our uncles to our wives, but my uncle did not succeed to get my wife back for me, because they regarded me, my wife's parent, regarded me as a prisoner.
MS SEROKE:: Were you allowed to see your children?
MR CHAUKE:: No my children had to escape so that they can see me. MS SEROKE: Do you have any reverend who assists you with your problems?
MR CHAUKE:: No.
CHAIRPERSON:: Mr Chauke you've come to tell us about a very difficult time in your life, which affected your life very, very dearly, and still affects your life. Thank you for sharing with us and bringing your picture to the photo album of the day. I do hope that the future will be a bright future for you and that you and your children will be re-united once again, but thankyou for being with us and all the best for the future. Thank you.
