DR RANDERA: Can Miss Nkundlane please come forward. Miss Nkundlane, good afternoon and welcome.
MISS NKUNDLANE: Afternoon.
DR RANDERA: Thank you for coming. You’re also taking us to 1990 as well as another incident that took place where you were also arrested. Before I ask you to tell your story, can you please stand to take the oath.
MISS NKUNDLANE: (sworn states)
DR RANDERA: Thank you. I’m going to be assisting you as you tell your story. Can you just take your time and tell us what happened in 1990.
MISS NKUNDLANE: In 1990 ............. was arrested after Pops’ car had been burnt out, the car was burnt on Thursday night and on Friday I went to school and I came back from school and after school I went to town. When I came back from town and I was just at home. I think it was about two or, or, and then the police car appeared. There was a policeman with, called Pietersen Tomule. He was alone in the car and he came and I was busy washing the dishes. I was with my Mom. He came in and greeted us and asked, who is Porschia. I said it’s me. He said I’d come to fetch you and my mother asked, why are you taking her? Where are you taking her to, he, and he says in the list of the people who’ve burnt down the car. My Mom said, what I know is that my child did not do that but if you take her and kill......Ileft with this policeman. We also went to fetch somebody called Margaret Chipo(?), we also found her at home. We also went to fetch other people they’d arrested. All of were arrested were eight. They took us to the police station and at the police station Pietersen Tomule said to us, you are going to speak the truth. We said, what truth? He said, you know what you’ve done, you’ve burnt down the car. We said, we didn’t know that. He started threatening us and intimidating us. I said you’re going to tell the truth. We’re going to show you who we are and we were scared. We got very scared. Eventually we wanted speak although we didn’t know what seeing the car, but we’d seen some people dispersing after the car had burnt and we also wanted to say the names of those people who we saw running away but we eventually said, no, we don’t know.
They took us to the cells and locked us up in the cells. They arrested us on Friday and on Saturday, in the morning, there was a group of policemen from Pietersberg who came. I don’t know if they were riot police but they were wearing khaki uniform. They’re very scary, they’re very scary guys. I don’t know who to explain them. They fetched us from the cells and the police called Ziken Mojani was on duty. He came to fetch us and his job was to fetch one by one from the cells to take us to these other policemen. They were sitting somewhere in a private place. They took us one by one and they would look at you in a very threatening way so that when you start speaking you start talking things you didn’t know. And this Ziken Mojani said, if you arrive there, don’t be scared of anything. Don’t talk things you didn’t know. If you don’t know anything just tell them you don’t know anything. And when I went inside I already knew what to expect although I was scared and they said is, is, is it you, Porschia Nkundlane? They said, what do you know about the burning of the car. I said I don’t know anything and they started swearing at me, speaking in Afrikaans and said to me, you’re talking shit and to-day you’re going to speak the truth. And I said I didn’t know anything. They said, when the car was burnt, where were you? I said I was at home. And they said, why did you choose to be there when you, when, why other people chose you that you were there when the car’s burning. I said, I don’t know if they hated me and they said to me, go but you’re still going to tell us the truth. You used to these things, you Kaffirs. And even the food they brought to us, they used to give food to us like they were giving dogs. I have never seen that kind of tea. It’s like they were burning the sugar and then put it inside of hot water and even the food that we ate, sis, it was full of maggots and worms and they wouldn’t even give it to us nicely. They will throw it at us but we didn’t eat their food because the community was there to help us.
The community went to business people and asked for food and brought us very nice food and on Sunday they continued to question us. There were a lot of boer police who used to come and threaten us. We were very scared that they were going to kill us. And on Monday, usually court in Messina, it starts at nine but our trial on that day, half past seven. It was early in the morning. They took us from the cells and we had not even washed and they pulled us and they were really treating us very badly. Ill-treating us and pushed us into vans and took us to court. In court we didn’t say anything and they didn’t ask us any questions and when we came in, the Magistrate just said our court was remanded. I don’t even remember to what date was it remanded to but it was a far off date. I think it was on a Monday and we’d been up, and the trial was remanded to thirtieth of March and there was no bail and there was nothing. We were to remain in custody. From there they took us and when we came out we saw the whole community was there. Our parents and they were waiting for the trucks to start. In the meantime we’d already been taken in and outside of the court. And the cops took us and threw us into vans and just real ill-treated us. One of us hit the cop and kicked the policeman and the policeman spectacles got broken and they took us to the police stations. From there they took us out of the van and put us in another van to take us to Louis Trichardt. When they took us, they were real not treating us nicely, they were just very rough with us. One of the cops had a knopkierrie. When you get out of the van he would hit with the knopkierrie. You’ll be thrown out of the van and get this knopkierrie hitting and be thrown into another van and they’d push us into this other van and took us to Louis Trichardt. When we arrived at Louis Trichardt, it would seem as if there were a lot of people, they’d already phoned in advance before arrived there because we found there were a lot of people, they were expecting us and we were locked into cells.
I think on Tuesday, very early in the morning, I think a prison warder came and he called us in our names, one by one and the guys, somebody went to, to, to the guys’ cells and we already were to wearing a uniform, awaiting trial uniform. And they took us out and they told us that the Messina cops had come back to fetch us again. So they took us from Louis Trichardt and took us back to Messina and they put us again in cells. And much later the Human Rights lawyer, Serf, Serfontein Katjalia came and the trial was going to be at two, so they took us to a room in the court premises and this lawyer spoke to us and said, we are here for you. Don’t worry and don’t panic and all those things and they also asked us what we knew about the incident. We said, we didn’t know anything. And the trial started and then we were all given bail. I think it was a group of about five, five hundred rand per person. One, and the trial started at two.
I think they kept on remanding this case and we used to attend the case but every time it will be remanded and eventually we were taken to Louis Trichardt Regional Court. We went twice and they remanded it. And all those things were costing us. It was costing our family to go to Louis Trichardt to attend this remanded court hearings. And the third time we went to Louis Trichardt and, and when we were there, other people were charged and others were discharged but what I was really worried about was to suffer. I suffered and I suffered for nothing and there was no reason for me to suffer. And eventually I was discharged because I was not guilty and that’s why the court discharged me because they saw I wasn’t guilty.
DR RANDERA: Miss Nkundlane, is, is there anything else you want to say.
MISS NKUNDLANE: No, I don’t have.
DR RANDERA: Can I just clarify a few issues? This incident relating to Pops, that you are talking about, is that the same as Mr Moraba was talking about earlier on because you are dating your incident in 1990 and the burning of a car. He’s relating an incident in 1991 and, and the burning of a house.
MISS NKUNDLANE: Yes, it is. I don’t understand the question.
DR RANDERA: Sorry. Are they two different incidences altogether?
MISS NKUNDLANE: It is too different incidents.
DR RANDERA: Okay so this gentleman, Pops, again it seemed like he became the target in, in, in the community for some reason. His house gets burnt, his car gets burnt, he gets accused of, of being involved in witchcraft. Can you tell us a little more about that?
MISS NKUNDLANE: Those incidents happened at the time but I don’t, as I’m saying now, indicating that I was not there when those things happened. I actually know nothing. There’s nothing I can say.
DR RANDERA: In your statement, you talk of being part of the ANC in underground.
MISS NKUNDLANE: That’s true.
DR RANDERA: Did you leave the country for, before that? At any time?
MISS NKUNDLANE: No, I was always inside the country.
DR RANDERA: Dr Ally earlier on asked somebody else the question about the consumer boycotts and who was behind those boycotts. Was that organized by the ANC or the UDF?
MISS NKUNDLANE: It was organized by the community because the youth, at the time, we were, we were actually leaders to the community but we could not actually tell the community what to do. The community would decide on their own and agree what to do and decide who will be their leaders. And when they decide to do something we would be the leaders to that decision.
DR RANDERA: The policeman who were, in, involved in your arrest and subsequent torture, are they still in the community and are they still working within the police force?
MISS NKUNDLANE: Yes, some, some of them are still around but most of them are not here. I don’t know where they are.
DR RANDERA: Can I, can I ask you your opinion, in case these people do apply for amnesty and amnesty is granted, what would you feel?
MISS NKUNDLANE: That can be a good ting, thing if they could apply for amnesty and I would like it if they can come to me and explain why they were torturing me. I would like to know the main reason.
DR RANDERA: Thank you very much. Joyce !
MISS SEROKE: Porschia, you are saying here this in, incident of burning Mr Polwani’s car was not actually related to politics.
MISS NKUNDLANE: I can’t say it was not related or related. What I know is that maybe the way they took it at the time, they had to relate it to politics because I was a political activist at the time. The politics would be, pol, police were against politicians and we had work underground all the time because we’re fighting for freedom. So I think, for them to, to relate this incident to politics, they didn’t actually have, they didn’t have the reason to, to, to, to arrest me. They used the incident just to arrest me.
MISS SEROKE: Were they actually looking for at the time and they didn’t have the reason?
MISS NKUNDLANE: Yes, that’s true.
DR RANDERA: Mr Manthata !
MR MANTHATA: Porschia, are you saying some of you who were arrested were, were taken to court? What did they do?
MISS NKUNDLANE: They were being questioned about this incident of, of a car being burnt.
MR MANTHATA: These people who were taken to court, were they not members of any political organization?
MISS NKUNDLANE: They were members of the ANC Youth League.
MR MANTHATA: What did they explain, what was actually their reason for burning Pops’ car if they were members of political organization and Pops was not?
MISS NKUNDLANE: I don’t understand the question.
MR MANTHATA: My question is that, it they were really members of political organizations, why were they burning Pops’ car who was not a member of any political organization or even the burning of the car not being related to politics?
MISS NKUNDLANE: They way I understood it, they burnt his car after this rumour of him killing the teachers and other people. That’s why they, they burnt his car. Another thing which I can explain to you is that for the police to relate this incident with politics is that when the car was bunt we were from the meeting at the community hall. It was a youth meeting and we were trying to vote for a Committee. We were trying to start a Committee at the time and we were not, we could not reach consensus and some of us, I think, tried to, to go after that, the meeting to organize to burn the car but we did not discuss that at the meeting.
MR MANTHATA: I see it was not a political decision?
MISS NKUNDLANE: No.
MR MANTHATA: Oh fine. You political leaders at the time, is it true that you, you could not, you could not stop them?
MISS NKUNDLANE: Yes, it was difficult to stop these people at the time because they were going to cause problems.
MR MANTHATA: I would like to ask you how, how, for how long did they torture you and arrest you?
MISS NKUNDLANE: Do you mean in 1990 when I was arrested? They did not arrest me once, it was many times. I want to know, are you relating to the 1990 incident?
MR MANTHATA: I believe that you’re going to explain to us everything which happened to you because of your political affiliation at the time.
MISS NKUNDLANE: The way I was in those years, I was very active in politics. Even if it was just a group of men in a meeting or an organization, I would be the only woman or a lady. That’s why the police wanted me and they did not arrest me once, they came to me many times. I think it’s about four times. After the burning of Pops’ house they came and arrested me together with Tshalo Moraba. They came and told me that when the teachers was, was, was hit by a train, they said we came and threw stones to his house. They took us to the police cells but we only stayed there for two days. They released us and in all these cases I was, I was freed, I was given discharge. I was not actually involved. They came, they were actually arresting me for the things that I did not do. They came again in 1992. We were calling ourselves Messina Action Committee. They arrested us for plus minus eight dates, eight days. They separated us. Some of us took, were taken to Soekmekaar, some in Pietersberg and some in Louis Trichardt. I was alone in Louis Trichardt. It was a very frightening place. It was dark. I was at a cell in Louis Trichardt. It was a two roomed cell. That was a bedroom and a toilet at the same time. The toilet was not working well. They were giving me dirty food and they were throwing it to me just as they did before in 1990. There was one guy who was my brother-in-law. He would actually make an effort to go and buy me clean food and bring them to me and I was supposed to hide it because he would be in trouble. That’s when Serf came and Katchalia. They took us and we didn’t know where the police were taking us to. We passed through Mara and we fetched some people and we were taken to Pietersberg to meet Katchalia and Ntai and they tried to negotiate with the police to release us and they were not telling us the main reason why they were arresting us. When we arrived in Pietersberg, they said we were the ones who arr, organized a consumer boycott in Messina and we said, how, how can we organize a boycott. It was the community because we cannot stop what the community wants to do. At the time there were other ten youths who were arrested. After the Committee was arrested, those youths actually, they started demanding our release. They wanted to free us and we actually started to demand their release too after, after we learnt in Pietersberg that there, there are other ten youths who were arrested and we denied, we didn’t want to be released because we wanted them to be released too and they agreed that they’ll release them and that’s when we agreed. Actually they were just torturing us and threatening us. Every time they would, they would arrest guys and I would be the only lady even though I didn’t do anything.
MR MANTHATA: And we understand that this Pops incidents was related to politics because at the time they were against political organizations but every time when you were active and boycotting and doing other things, was there a time where you did actually burn house of Committee Councillors or even killing them?
MISS NKUNDLANE: No, what we did, we’re just marching and we went to, to their house and demand their resignations because they could not meet our demands.
MR MANTHATA: Thank you.
DR RANDERA: Dr Ally !
DR ALLY: Was Pops seen as involved with Community Councillors or sympathetic to Community Councillors that he became such a target?
MISS NKUNDLANE: No.
DR ALLY: And, and presently, where is this person? Pops, is he still in the community or what, what happened to him?
MISS NKUNDLANE: The Committee evicted him.
DR ALLY: Can you just explain. What do you mean, the community evicted him?
MISS NKUNDLANE: After his house was burnt and after people were complaining that he, he must leave Messina, from that day he just disappeared. We could only see him during the, his trials.
DR ALLY: And presently, do you have any idea where he is or, any knowledge?
MISS NKUNDLANE: I heard that he’s in Venda but I don’t know where in Venda. I met him one day in Venda but I don’t know where he’s staying at the moment.
DR ALLY: Thank you.
DR RANDERA: Miss Nkundlane, thank you very much for coming here and talking AND we’ve noticed this morning that this community of Messina and Nancefield have thrown forward many strong woman and clearly through your struggles in the, in the ‘80’s and ‘90’s you’ve come out being very strong. That doesn’t take away the fact that you were tortured, intimidated during the many times that you were imprisoned. I thank you for coming to-day.
Can I suggest that we break for lunch and return at two thirty five. Thank you. Two thirty.
