DR RANDERA: Can I please call Mr Thelele. Mr Thelele, good afternoon.
MR THELELE: Good afternoon, Sir.
DR RANDERA: Welcome. Mr Thelele, can you please stand to take the oath.
MATHIYA JAMES THELELE: (sworn states)
DR RANDERA: Thank you, Mr Thelele. Mr Thelele you are taking us back to 1974. At the time, sorry, let me just. At the time of the Messina Advisory Board. Mr Manthata, whom I’m sure you know. Sorry, let me finish, hold on, who you know, earlier on talked about the Advisory Board as well. Can you just take your time and tell us the important things please, of what happened to you in 1974.
MR THELELE: It was in 1973 and children from the location, they came to tell us that they’re being arrested in the township and when we go and ask for work in the White areas, the White man Klopper refused to give us permission to go out and work in the urban areas. It was during 1972 and 73 and exactly in 1973, Lazarus Knobe said Thelele we have to elect you to the Board because the children in the township are being harassed and also including the women. About police coming around the township and harassing people, together with Klopper and I said, because I’m a good man, How am I gonna lead you and they said no, just be a strong man and I had to join the Board and work on behalf of Mr Manthata. In the Board we normally discussed community matters. I told him, people from the community are not cows.
Those people followed me and I didn’t take much cognisance of them and I continued with my life. One day when I got there, they told people that I was the one who was informing other people which we have been discussed when we were together. I continued being a member of the Board and in, it was during August 1972 when they came to me and told me that they were coming to fetch me and said, I couldn’t care. I was fighting for the youth on, on our location. I told them I was worried, because our kids were not allowed to go to Johannesburg and Pretoria and old women were forced to go out of their houses and I told them that White people were staying in Urban areas but then why are they controlling us in, in the rural areas. I was the youngest guy in the cabinet at the time and they could not listen to me. They said I only knew jazz, I couldn’t tell them anything.
One day I was with van der Merwe and van Niekerk and I explained our problems at our township that people were being evicted from their houses and they are given permits if they are supposed to come to the townships. They are supposed to ask for days and I asked Mr Manthata and I told him that, because I was young in the cabinet, please help me. What should I do? I think others were Shangaan and they were speaking Shangaan and I could understand it and they told me that things did not work that way and they told me, and I told them that this is Landsfield and people from the camps are together with us and they should be, we should all be united. I did not, I was confused and the late Mr Shaw, I also, alerted him that the police wanted him and Patrick Mpepo and Celtic Mathudi. I went to them and I told them that I was evicted from the location and the people were not listening to me. They’re saying, I’m young and I knew nothing. They were at our location to open a new school for Sotho speaking people and they promised that they would meet those guys and I told them that people who knew something were late at the time. I’ve stood aside and I told myself, I’m going to watch them, what were they going to do about those problems. Police were sent to my house and they told me I was not going to spend that night at my house and I told them that I bought that house and I don’t owe anybody a cent and I told them I was going to... All those people are late now but those police were cowards because they used to come during the night and they said to me I’m, I’m given only seventy two hours to evict, evict my house and I said no, I was going, not going to do that. I was surprised when the police came during the night and they shot all my dogs and they killed them while I was still seated there.
This other guy who was a sergeant, he gave me a letter and reminded me that I only have seventy two hours and my youngest child was only three days old and I asked them, where should I go, because I didn’t have money at the time. And I just hired John from Standard Bank who was promising to take me and take me to another place for eighty rands and I didn’t have money. Eventually, they borrowed me money and I went to Mara and they told my boss, Lawrence, that I was not supposed to stay at the township and he even told their mayor that I was not a good man and he told them that the other guys which I used to work with them and Leon Claff that other people which I used to be friends with were not good people. And they used to say I was after people and I was troublesome.
I eventually packed with my three day old child and I went to Mara and the baby didn’t have nappies. After that I put an appeal in Pietersberg and I contacted eight superintendents in the Northern Province and Klopper denied that he’s the one who caused all that trouble. He said it was members from his Board who evicted me from my place and I tried to ask, what have I done? And it was only because I was trying to help other people who were not working. One of those guys who was known as Dabula and the other one was blind and they, most of the youth were unemployed and they were sent back to their rural areas and they said that I have to go back to Pietersberg and from there I have to go to the magistrate court. When I was at the magistrate court they said, I told them that I have to go back to my home. My furniture was broken. I look at, I look for my home, I couldn’t find anyone and it was hired out. This is what I’m coming to tell. After that I went out and I went to a chemist. And children in the township said, since you have come back, try to improve our life in the township. And I told them what am I gonna, how am I gonna help? Look even at the older ones, our grandmothers have been evicted. And even those who’ve bought four rooms houses, they’ve lost their money because they have to be evicted. I asked whether this person who have done all this, it’s a good man, because of the things you have done to us.
DR RANDERA: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Thelele. In your statement you said that after Mr Klopper, who was a superintendent in Messina at the time and was also a member of the Board. Is that right?
MR THELELE: Yes, that’s true.
DR RANDERA: After he gave you seventy two hours notice, you in fact contacted a Mr Minnie, the Chief Magistrate of Messina to tell him of what had happened and the Chief Magistrate said he could do nothing about it. Is that right?
MR THELELE: Yes, that’s what, that’s what he told me. He said he was not involved in the issues from our township. He said he was not, he was not going to be involved.
DR RANDERA: So it was that common the way the legal Magistrate almost took no notice as to what happened to citizens in, in the area?
MR THELELE: This White man was a snake. He used to run and he used to be a liar. He was just a snake.
DR RANDERA: Thank you. Can I ask you to please settle, settle down. Thank you very much. Mr Thelele, you left with your family and you went to live with your in-laws. Where did you go to? Where were they living?
MR THELELE: That’s true. That’s what I did. It was in Mara.
DR RANDERA: ..........................................?
MR THELELE: It’s next to Louis Trichardt. It’s about plus minus fifteen k’s. I only know about my house. It’s only forty eight miles.
DR RANDERA: And you left your house and belongings here in Nancefield?
MR THELELE: I didn’t have transport to carry those .....
DR RANDERA: belongings.
MR THELELE: ...and when I get those transport, I was, I was no money and anything. Those furnitures, they used to broke .....(indistinct).... it’s only three days borne and they said I mustn’t be sleeping right in location but I ask him what, what a ...(indistinct) They said you are not allowed to stay in Messina, be, but I wa, myself, I’m a bona-fide from Messina.
DR RANDERA: Did he every give you a reason ...(intervention)
MR THELELE: ......(indistinct)........ They said you must left Messina.
DR RANDERA: Are your children all all right?
Thank you. My last question is ... (intervention)
MR THELELE: I’m asking the court, why, what had been done for that (...intervention)
DR RANDERA: My last question is, when did you return to Nancefield? Are you living in Nancefield now?
MR THELELE: I came back to Nancefield in 1976. That was in September. When I came in September I went to see Klopper and he said, am I back from Egypt and I said no, I’m not back from Egypt and I was a bona-fide of Nancefield. And he said to me, I should be a lodger and I asked him, how could I be a lodger if I owned a four roomed house. And I stopped questioning him because I was afraid that he, the man was going to evict me again. But I ask the Truth Commission, what have been done .. (intervention)
DR RANDERA: Sorry, are you, are you saying that you did not get your house back, somebody else is staying in your house.
MR THELELE: Eh, somebody is staying there but I don’t, ja he’s staying there but I doesn’t like it any more. Myself, I doesn’t like to go back there. I doesn’t like, because there are snake biters there near to me there.
DR RANDERA: Sorry, can I please ask the audience to, to respect what’s being said here and I understand that it may appear to be extremely funny but it’s not the point of, of telling the story.
MR THELELE: Even to, even to-day, I’m prayed for Lords. There are too many people in locations. They’re still crying for their house. For that Klopper who’ve been to, taking those house and give it to somebody. How these come because they are bona-fides from that house. To-day they are suffering, because it, maybe it was under Bantu administration. I’m asking that.
DR RANDERA: Is Mr Kloppers still around in, in Messina?
MR THELELE: Ja, he’s still here in Messina. He’s still here. And these people they used to, to ask, where, where is our house? Others, others they’ve been deposit, others they are dead and never to, to go forwards to say where it’s our house, where is our things? Because they’re still under with that instruction of ou Kloppers and there is,is still the Chief in the under location. Even myself, I’m here. He can run up to shoot me when I’m going outside.
DR RANDERA: Mr Manthata earlier on said that when he was, when a similar .... (..intervention).. sorry, let me finish. What he said earlier on was that Mr Klopper also asked him to leave Nancefield but accused him of being a Communist. Where you also being, where you also accused of being a Communist?
MR THELELE: Me, I was, I was Cabinet with Manthata, with Manthata and when the time he chased me, Manthata he said you can rather do me anythings, because I’m a bona-fide from location.
DR RANDERA: Thank you Mr Thelele, I have no further questions. Mr Manthata!
MR MANTHATA: Thanks.
MR THELELE: Thanks, I’m a pain Mr Manthata, because we were only two. The others there was they hate us.
MR MANTHATA: Thelele.
MR THELELE: Thanks.
MR MANTHATA: Thank you, Mr Thelele. Thelele what you’re telling us is what do no longer exist, what you were trying to tell us to-day. The pain which you went through during those evictions and during the times where you used to lived, live by permits was something which to-day when we are talking of human rights, is, we are talking about. Some of us, when we grew up, those things were outdated and it could, it could be a joke to us like some of us are doing now. My question is that, while you were a member of the Advisory Board at the time, were you able to monitor how many people were being evicted from their houses? And when those people were trying to, to complain, what help did you give them? As the Advisory Board, if someone was complaining, they used to come to us and we used to solve, try to solve their problems without going to the Magistrate’s Court or to be sent to, to prison, especially the young ladies were being very much protected and they used to come to us and complain about impregnated by young men and we used to tell them that, in Messina as people, most guys were unemployed during those times. We used to advise them to sit down and discuss issues but the Advisory Board and that boer, they didn’t want to see young guys around Messina. I swear, this Patrick Mpepu and Sal, Sedrick Patrudi, I talked to them and discussed these things with them, about what was happening around here. Can I ask you again. Those people who evicted, was it young guys who were single or bachelors and young ladies, old spinsters? As you were trying to explain to us that there were also older women who were evicted from houses. I actually want to understand who were being evicted from houses because they didn’t have permit.
MR THELELE: They didn’t choose, they used to come at random during the night and chase everyone. You just hear that people were being taken away during the night by the police.
MR MANTHATA: Are you saying people were being evicted because they were making noise during the night?
MR THELELE: No, what I’m saying is that the, the, the big vans who used to come and make noise during the night and take people away, everyone and we used to cry and, and be in trouble. Even older women were taken away if they’re visiting, coming to see their, their grandchildren and when we tried to help, especially me, they would not listen especially maybe because they used to say, I’m I’m, I’m younger and Mr Manthata used to, to support me.
MR MANTHATA: Can you clarify this? My main question is that, were you able to answer and solve the problems of your community because they didn’t have permits and because of those evictions. Were you able to solve those problems?
MR THELELE: Yes, we were able to solve them.
MR MANTHATA: That’s why my problem, my question is, how did you used to solve those problems.
MR THELELE: We used to call their parents, their fathers and mothers to sit down with them and discuss those problems and not to run and go to the White person. And the police used to be against us and used to say to us we were just wasting time and we were powerless as a result.
MR MANTHATA: I think I do not understand you clearly, Mr Thelele, because when I’m saying, when a person used to be evicted from a house, you can only satisfy that person by giving that person another house. That’s why I’m asking you, at the time when you were a member of the Advisory Board, if a person was evicted from a house. A woman being evicted because she’s single, an older woman be, evicted because she’s a widower. That’s what my question is based upon. That how did you solve these problems as an Advisory Board?
MR THELELE: As an Advisory Board we used to sit down, call the parents and everyone, the community do discuss the issues so that we could satisfy peoples and not take the matters to the courts.
MR MANTHATA: Thank you. I’d like to conclude by saying that, the pain which you went through as an Advisory Board caused and made the youth to realise that the Advisory Board was useless to them and that’s how they came to, to decide to go to exile and train as soldiers. What we are saying to you is that your work of trying to bring together families and the community to talk issued out was helpful but was not solving the main issues. Wait a minute. That’s why we are saying that you worked hard during those times and it really hurts us to know that they evicted you with your three year old child and we really feel pain to, to hear all that you tried to explain to us. Let me conclude by saying that. Thank you.
DR RANDERA: Mr Thelele, thank you very much for patiently waiting. I want to echo what Tom Manthata has said and it’s clear that after so many years that the pain that you experienced at that time is still with you. I hope by you coming here to-day and talking about experiences during the 1970’s, it has helped in some way. We thank you again for coming and we wish you all the best. Thank you very much.
Ladies and Gentlemen that brings us to the end of these hearings but before you leave I just want to make a few points. You, as I said right at the beginning, we received a number of statements and we chose those statements that you have heard to-day but clearly the statements that we’ve heard to-day do not reflect everything that has happened. I’m sure that if I was to walk and talk amongst you to-day, there would be many of you who would say, why did you choose this statement, and not that statement? First of all, we can only go by what we have and at the same time we are aware that that is not the complete picture. This area for example, besides a pass, a passing reference to the, to the SADF and the SAP involvement, we’ve heard very little of cross-border raids for example. We’ve heard something about how young people were passing through Messina but at the same time we have not heard enough of how the community actually dealt with that situation. Hundreds of people must have gone through Messina and hundreds came back through Messina but we haven’t really heard from you as individuals and as members of the community, the role that you played in assisting people.
We heard earlier on and I said earlier on about land mines and, and the deaths that took place from those land mines but again nobody has come forward to make a statement. We heard one statement in Pietersberg but that’s all we’ve heard. I’m told to-day by some of the people from the media that there was a land mine explosion yesterday. Several people have been very seriously injured. Now again I’m sure that you’re aware that there’s been an international movement to ban land mines. We, from the, from the example of yesterday, we certainly may have many more land mines still in existence in, still present in this area and perhaps we need to make the authorities aware and I’m sure yesterday’s incident and the injuries of those people will make them aware that the, these mines still exist. But we need for people to come forward and talk about these. I said earlier on that we have informed all the people, the alleged perpetrators mentioned but clearly there were attacks on councillors in this area. There were attacks on police officers in this area. We haven’t heard any stories from them. The deadline for amnesty application once again is just around the corner. As you know, the original deadline was the fourteenth of December 1996. We asked for a, for an extension of that period and the President agreed to it, extended the period to the fourteenth, to the tenth of May of this year. Now the work of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission is based on trying to gather all this information and it gives the opportunity to all of us who were, who either suffered human rights violations or were perpetrators to come forward, to tell their story and to contribute towards our new democracy. So I want to appeal once again to all of you who have been here listening very patiently to go back into your communities, speak to your friends, encourage them to make statements. The designated statement takers I was talking about earlier on, will be taking statements at the Parliamentary Constituency Office. I’m sure all of you know better than I do where that is. I understand it’s behind the Chicken Licken here in town and for all, for those who want to know, the num, the phone number there is 01553-3520.
The last point I want to make is, in the last week the Reparations Committee and Mr Manthata is part of that Committee, had a conference in Johannesburg and some of you may have heard on the radio or read in the newspaper that a Draft Reparation Policy has been put forward. They’re working on the final touches to that Policy. I know that question has not been raised from the people who have come forward to tell their stories to-day but our feedback from our statement takers is that that is something that many people ask., wanting to know, what is this Reparation Policy going to be? It is our, our, our plan to come back to report on this, on this hearing as well as other issues and I hope that when we come back to, to, to the community, we will spend a great deal of time talking about this Reparation Policy.
I thank you again and I want to es, especially thank all those people who have come and told their stories to-day and thank you for giving us the opportunity for being here with you to-day. I want to also thank the, the Council of Messina for giving us this hall and, and all the other assistance that the Council has given us as well as the North West Government. So, thank you very much and I wish you well on your journey home. Sorry, Mr Manthata tells me that this follow- up meeting that I was talking about will be on the third of May in Pietersberg. We will, through the structures that we’ve been working with in this area send that message through your, through to you again. Can I please ask the Priest from the Catholic Church to come forward. Is that Mr Flemming, to say a prayer?
Hearing closes with a Hymn and a Prayer.
DR RANDERA: Thank you, Father Flemming. Sorry, before you leave, please, please, please leave these boxes behind. It’s of no use to anybody outside this hall. Thank you.
