CHAIRPERSON: Opening Prayer. We welcome all of you with warm hands here in Mpumulanga. We would like to welcome you all to this sitting of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. We welcome you all to this session of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Guests and their families and those that were interested during those times of unrest. We say we welcome the Premier of Mpumulanga, Mr Posa. Let us clap hands for him. We welcome even our Majesty King Mayisha the Second and the Chiefs and the Headmen. We even welcome Mr George Mhlongmongyani who is an MP and the Treasurer for the ANC sub-region. We also welcome the Deputy-Mayor Mrs Maklala. Where is she? Nozipho Masango, the Chairperson of the ANC. Sorry, Mr Mahlango. We welcome you also. Piendile Madondo, we also welcome you and we welcome further Mr Douglas Reece from the UK. The father in-law to Dr Randera here next to me. We welcome you.
Those who I do not mention by name, please do not feel left out. We welcome you all. If we have to call you by name we will never ever start with todays proceedings. We want to say thank you, as well, to very many people. We want to thank the Premier and the Committee that have helped to prepare for this sitting. Sibong Rakula. We want to welcome the Chief of this area and we want to thank his office for allowing us to use this area. We want to thank
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ANC local branch. We want to thank the Council. We want to thank POPCRU. We thank the SACP. We thank Father Gedo, James Mahlongu, Beauty and we thank the briefers.
The police, we use to dislike the police because we use to see them as our enemies, but they have changed since and they are the people who protect the people. So we want to say thank you to the police inside, outside providing security. Let us give them a hand to welcome them. Then we want to say thank you very much to the hospital authorities and their staff for making these facilities available to us. I then want to say a very big thank you to my colleagues the Commissioners and Committee members and our staff. They work very, very hard. I just appear as a nice decoration. The people who do the work are all of these people next to me. The people in the offices, the field workers. They do a marvellous job of work. We want to thank them all and I ask you if you can clap for them. Let us clap hands for them please.
DR ALLY: Thank you your Grace. If we could call the first witness, King Mayisha the Second, to the witness stand.
CHAIRPERSON: Order please. One of the things that I did not say is that this is not a Court of Law. We are expected to behave ourselves. We all know that we are going to behave ourselves.
The second thing is we are not going to making a finding at this sitting. We will making a finding about whether somebody is a victim or is a perpetrator much, much later and may I warn, again, that although I have said this is not a Court of Law, if someone comes here and deliberately misleads the Commission, then that person will be guilty of the same offence as would have happened in a
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Court of Law. If you come here to mislead and not tell the truth purposely then you are going to be in trouble. We do not want that to happen.
DR ALLY: Thank you your Grace. Your Grace, King Mayisha is going to speak about his personal experiences. He is also going to give us an overview of the period that this event hearing is going to cover. This, as you know, we are looking at events that took place in Moutse, KwaNdebele between 1985 and 1988. King Mayisha the Second was part of that process, part of the conflict around the incorporation of Moutse and the attempted move to give KwaNdebele independence. Before I ask the King to go through his statement, I am going to ask if he can be sworn in and take the oath.
MR MALAN: King, will you please stand?
KING MAYISHA: (Duly sworn in, states).
MR MALAN: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
DR ALLY: Your Majesty, I am going to assist you with your statement, but I am going to ask you now if you would please just go through your statement with us and explain what happened to you during this period and also the overview which you are going to provide, the conflict that took place in this area. Thank you.
KING MAYISHA: The first thing, I am not going to read any statement that I have made. I am going to start by stating that, give thanks to the TRC Committee that is in front of us. To thank everybody that is in this hall and say today my presence here is that I am prepared to give the truth on everything that I know, but before I can say that, I would like to say this to the Ndebeles and the Motsa tribes and everybody to the nation, yes. On what we are going to say,
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this should not take us back to what we have experienced. By telling the truth we should not go back and start fighting again. I think everything that you are going to say here is what is going to try to build our nation again. With all those words I say all these people staying in this area must be prepared to tell the truth and it should not be something that is going to take us back. All that we want is progress.
The first thing I am going to say is about Imbokhoto. Imbokhoto was an organisation that started in 1985. It was started by other people that were working for the Government of the former KwaNdebele. The President was Mr F S Khosane as we use to read in the newspapers. I was one of those people who was working in that Government. During that time, when Imbokhoto started, I was the Minister of Education, if I am not mistaken. I was the Minister of Health and Welfare. This started, this is not something that started within the Government service, but it started outside the Government service because some of us were within the Government itself. We were not involved. I remember when it started some of us understood it as a cultural organisation, but when Mr Piet Ndoli who was known as Mr Makwe discussed that over the radio stating that they have started an organisation that is going to deal with the people who are not working with them. I remember going to our former Prime Minister, Mr F S Khosane to ask him about this. Ask him what is it that they were going, what was that organisation that they were going to do. Was it an organisation that was going to discipline the people that were not working with them, that were not co-operative. He stated that it was Mr Ndoli's idea, not his. Shortly, what
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I can say was that we have frequented the Prime Minister's home enquiring about what Mr Ndoli was saying was true. I still remember even Mr Skosane's family trying to discuss the matter with him. In short what I can say about Imbokhoto is that it was an organisation that did not understand what politics was all about. What I can say now in front of the nation and the Committee is that some of the people believe that I was part of this organisation. I still maintain that I have never been part of that organisation. In most of their meetings I was not involved. I did not attend because I was differing. In some of these meetings what they were saying, I would always tell them that, no, I will not be able to cope with what they are doing because the former KwaNdebele politicians believed that people would be coming from Mamelodi, Johannesburg and other towns, coming over to KwaNdebele to make some unrest. That is why there were so many roadblocks and other things. I use to tell them that there will not be other people coming from outside, but the people who are going to start this were your own children coming from within. That is why it was said that I knew where this all started. In short, what I can say about Imbokhoto is that it is one of those words that were used to, I have moved from the coming to independence.
Independence was the ideas brought in by the Afrikaners whose names I cannot recall anymore, but this was brought into KwaNdebele by them. During that time the Cabinet thought that in order to have money to develop the KwaNdebele nation, the best thing was to take independence, but as time went by the thing that people were not consulted. It became clear that what was being said by the
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Government differs from what people are thinking. What I can say before I can be asked some questions in front of the Commission is that in the first place I supported independence at first, but as time went by I managed to go to the Cabinet and convinced them that they have to consult with the community and get their views about it. I say this because I was still very young within the Cabinet itself and during that time I had other people, I had supporters who would send me to the Government that I always reported and everything that I was reporting to the Cabinet, I would always get it from their supporters. Therefore, that is how it went on. It became clear that independence should be imposed to the people. That is where it started. That is where the unrest started.
People went to the Ngomyama, my late father, to enquire as to whether this independence was approved by the Ngomyama, but the Ngomyama. They never appeared before the King to explain to him who gave them the permission to fight for this independence. I will quote dates. It was in 1986 when they were called and they did not want to appear before the King and to explain to the community that was gathered there. There was another meeting where the Chief was supposed to come in person because in that meeting Klaas Madodo who was the Minister of Public Works was forced to come and the Minister of Justice who was, M M Mahlongo, who was also supposed to come to the meeting. The community said, no, we want the Chief Minister in person and I remember after the date has been set for another meeting. I was a link between the royal kraal and the Cabinet. We persuaded the Chief Minister to come and talk to the community to tell them his feelings and he said, no, I am
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not going there. The next moment more than 20 people were gathered at the kraal. Police were hovering with their helicopters. They were spraying people with teargas. I remember after people left the place we picked up four dead bodies. I think people submitted their statements to the TRC. They will appear.
After that there was fighting in this KwaNdebele area and killings continued. Until today people left their original places. They went and stayed somewhere else until today. I want to pass this issue by saying if there is any other way that the Commission would help bring peace and reconciliation between those people who call themselves Imbokhoto and the people who use to stay in KwaNdebele. Let the Commission do so. As the King I have tried to make every means possible to bring reconciliation between the people so that they can be one nation as they were before. I want to pass this one and go to the next issue of Moutse. The Government of the Republic of South Africa incorporated Moutse into KwaNdebele because they were a Ndebele region and they were supposed to get their independence, but the people of Moutse never accepted this move. What I realised is that they did not want to be incorporated into KwaNdebele and there was no reason to force them, but the KwaNdebele Cabinet was at the forefront and they said, no, they have to be incorporated into KwaNdebele. There were conflicts then between the people of KwaNdebele, but I do not have to say that it was a conflict between the people of KwaNdebele, but I want to say this was a conflict between the people of Moutse.
There were people working in Middelburg who could not pass to go to their respective homes because the people of
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Moutse were very disturbed by this issue of incorporation. The Cabinet of the day, I know the person who was at the forefront. He is Piet Ntoli. Together with the other members of Parliament of those days they gathered people so that there can be a fight with the people of Moutse. What I can say is that the relationship in the community of Moutse and the relationship between the community of Zinzar was never disturbed at all, but the Zinzar people tried to come together and talk this matter out to indicate to the people that they were not fighting the Moutse people at all. They never managed to come when there was a fight. I want to say the people of KwaNdebele were forced to go to the battlefield. They did not want to do it, they were forced. After seeing that Moutse people killed a few Ndebele people the Cabinet of the day, Toelie Skosane and them, they came to the King, who is my father, and there was this conflict and they saw bodies between themselves and the people they were fighting. They came to ask for forgiveness. They said fighting was uncalled for. They said they will never involved themselves in fighting anymore, but we realised that they came to the King because of the bodies they saw. Their King Moboko was accusing them also. They said they will never ever engage in fighting. I remember it was on the seventh of February 1986, yes 1986.
All these events troubled the youth of KwaNdebele and the community at large. There was this thing called unrest in our area and the KwaNdebele people died like flys. Until today there are people who we do not know where they are heading to. People who were burnt into their houses and some of the people who were assaulted. I think most of these people will appear before the Commission to give their MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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side of the story. I hope they have submitted their statements. There is a need that people of Moutse must understand that it was not the community of KwaNdebele that was fighting against them. It was just a few elements in the Cabinet. The police were involved in this whole issue and they did not help at all. I remember they were told when Imbokhoto began, letters were written to Ministers, letters were written to police commanders, but they never gave any help. They only stood and watched as people were killing each other.
Chairperson, that is what I wanted to put before this Commission this and maybe I can now proceed to the statement that I have submitted where I said that the police arrested me unlawfully. In 1986, I do not remember the date very well, but it was in February. They took me and put me into the cells for two nights and on the fifth of April, if I am not mistaken. I must say they arrested me in February. That was after they arrested Prince James. Now we were going to his trial at Mdantsane. While we were at the verandah at the court they picked me up to take me to the cells and after two days they released me. In April, I cannot remember well, but it was on a Tuesday or on a Monday, the Parliament was supposed to sit and I was taken on Friday. It was on a Wednesday. Prince James was arrested because there was going to be a sitting of the Parliament. Can I continue with my statement that I have submitted to TRC?
DR ALLY: Yes Your Grace.
KING MAYISHA: I was released and in the Parliament in that April month we were arguing about a few things and I saw that I was going to be arrested. I decided to run away
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before they could arrest me. I was still staying in a place reserved for Ministers. I was released of my duties as a Minister on the fifth of December. I was then released of my duties.
In April I decided to run away and I went into ... My wife was pregnant and she was brought home and only on the 27th of May she gave birth in the morning. I went to see her and I could not see the baby, I only saw the mother and from there I went to Pretoria where I went to meet the Ambassadors and explained my situation and the situation from Kwandebele. From there I went to Johannesburg to further explain the situation to other Ambassadors. I remember it was in the afternoon when I left that area. The Kwandebele police were already there. We were parking our car in Commissioner Street. I just saw a policeman close to me. This other policeman was called de Jager. I do not know his first name and he was grabbing me by my belt and that was our arrest. He asked me where do I want to leave my car. I said I will leave it at the Swaziland embassy. We left and he brought me to KwaNdebele. He brought me to KwaNdebele. It was myself and Abrahams Skosane and when we arrived here we were put in the cells at kwaMhlanga Police Station. From there we were transferred to Kwagga Police Station.
There was a rumour that there was a bomb found at Moutse Magistrates Court and this bomb was linked to me and the Prince. The policemen from Pretoria came on the fifth to take me to Bronkhorstspruit until the 15th of June in 1986. I am sorry, it was in 1987. They released me on the 15th of June at Bronkhorstspruit. Actually, I was not released, I was transferred to Gazena. That is a police
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station in Pretoria. I was put in the cells until the 19th of, I am really not good at dates, but I was at Gazena Police Station. I was then moved from Gazena to KwaNdebele. We would not be put in any other prison because of the bomb that was found at Moutse Magistrate Court.
The Pretoria people said, no, we are going to release you, but the police of KwaNdebele took us to kwaMhlanga and they said they were charging us. They were charging us with terrorism and arson and many things. We were charged. I was then taken to Verina Police Station. On the 22nd we went to the Court of Law. It was on the 22nd of July. It was on the 22nd of June. I am mixing these dates, I am sorry. While we were at the court we were told that we will never be given any bail. Maklala was our attorney and they said we will not get any bail. They are going to make an application to the Attorney General so that we can be given bail. They said in the meantime we should submit. We went to court and we were refused bail and they said we should after 14 days and then we were taken back to Verina Police Station.
On the eighth we went to court, it was on the eighth of August if I am not mixing the dates again. It was on the eighth of July. We arrived there and we were given bail. They said it was R10 000.00 each. I must say the first day when we were at the court Maklala, our attorney, was also arrested. When we came back on the eighth of July Advocate Mosega came to see us and the advocate was accompanied by Advocate Jordan. Jordan was a white person. At least he could say something, but Mosega could not say anything because he was a black man. They were threatening him that they would send him to jail on that day. When we went to
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the court we were chained both the hands and the feet. They were using very small handcuffs for our hands and we were then given bail. R2 500 each and we were told to bring in our passports. That was the first condition. The second condition was we do not have to leave the jurisdiction of KwaNdebele without police permission. We had to report three times a week at the police station.
I remember one day, because I was running a business, people went to destroy my business and I concentrated on that breaking into my store. I went to report this to the police station. Instead of looking into the matter, they arrested me. It was on the eighth of July when I was released. It was at about three o' clock in the afternoon and I went home. When I arrived they said they want to give me tea. I said, no please, I want the chicken because I have two days without any food. When I came back at about six o' clock in the afternoon the police were around my house with their cars. They called me even before I could enjoy my meal and they said let us go. They took me to the cells and they released me in the evening. In the afternoon they would come and pick me again. My family made an application at the Supreme Courts and on the 22nd of July I was called. I was released. I stayed at home. The police were always taking care of me. I went to report to them every day. When I wanted to go to town I will be escorted by the police.
As from the seventh of September I was taken again because there was an agricultural show in kwaMhlanga. So they invited the Royal family, but I told them that they should not go. So the people who came to collect the Royal family told them that I refused. Then the night of the
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seventh I was taken again to the Verina Police Station until the seventh of, then I was transferred to Pietersburg Prison.
The following year in June, at the end of the State of Emergency. Then inbetween there is something that I cannot be able to explain because of time. There are so many things that happened. When the State of Emergency came to an end we were taken from Pietersburg to Verina. Then we were asked to sign some papers that say we should not oppose the KwaNdebele Government and that we will not refuse any independence, but we refused. We told them that we are not going to sign. Then we were taken back to Pietersburg for two weeks up to the end of the State of Emergency when we got released.
DR ALLY: Thank you Your Majesty. You have given us a very comprehensive overview of the period and you have also given us a lot of information about your own personal experiences and your many periods of detention. So much so that the dates get jumbled in your head so often. So I am not going to detain you too much longer.
KING MAYISHA: No problem.
DR ALLY: I am going to ask you one or two questions just to assist us in our work. First, during these periods of detention were you ever tortured or subjected to any ill treatment?
KING MAYISHA: Yes, torture that led to assault. I cannot say I was assaulted, but I feel I was tortured because that door of the prison, when it says "goo" every evening, every afternoon when it say "goo". Once they close it you can feel that pain and the type of food that I was eating, I was not enjoying it, but I think that is part of assault. Even
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having to be separated from your family and the businesses and the children that are at various schools in different cities. I feel that was assault. When I was always taken because I had a treatment that I had a treatment every three months that I was taking, that I was consulting in Johannesburg.
One time when we went and consulted the white police man, it was Viljoen, when he came back with me from Johannesburg, he drove, we went to Pretoria at a police college. When we came there he was drunk, he was driving with me on that road, switching off lights and I could see that we can get in danger at any given time. I was told a lot of things which I did not want to be told for. So I feel that was the torture and by then I was summoned because I had businesses, I was summoned. That is one of the things that I am going to ask the Commission to investigate. What we call today MDC. Mpumulanga Development Corporation, but by that time it was KwaNdebele Development Corporation because KwaNdebele Government Development Corporation was in agreement with the KwaNdebele Government and the MD of that time was used as a Chairperson of, what they call, Comcom. I do not know what is that, but they were out to make us bankrupt. They were out to ask other people whom we are owing to summon us and even today I am bankrupt and I am still owing that Development Corporation because I am saying I am not going to pay. They can take me to court, they can take me back to jail, I am not going to pay until the Commission can come back to me and say you are liable, you must pay. Until then, I will never pay, because I feel they were together and they were doing all these things because they wanted independence and they wanted to move us away
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from their road of independence and they did know that I was the most person who was financing the struggle of KwaNdebele.
DR ALLY: Thank you Your Majesty. I do not have any further questions. I am going to pass you back to the Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Any questions? Wynand Malan.
MR MALAN: Sorry, you have been around for quite some time. I just want you to very briefly reflect on the origins of the KwaNdebele state. Can you remember when you were a young boy, how this came about?
KING MAYISHA: Yes, I remember very well because I was at the secondary school called Waparangwe in the district of Marble Hall. Our people in the farms, after 1962 after Mandela was given judgement, white people started chasing our people from the farms. So they did not know where to go and they wanted to come to their King at Weltevrede, but at Weltevrede they never had any place to put them. So they went to Bophututswana. They went into other areas that they were far from their King. So what happened there were a group of people who came to my father. The Royal family said we want to start the homeland so that we can create a place for the Ndebele people, but my father and the Royal family they did not want to accept those people because they did not support the apartheid system right from the beginning. Actually, my grandfather, they did not want to accept such a thing, but they went and took me out of the school and said to me, because I was still young. I think by then I was 16 years old. They said to me what is the use of you staying here at school. When you come out here you have passed, you have done everything, you have got all your MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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degrees, you will find no Ndeble nation, it will be gone. So because I was young I accepted, I came back and I came and neutralised the Royal family to accept the idea. So that is how it started. So because of the people who could not be accepted in Pretoria for work opportunities, people were coming and they were looking for a stamp and a signature from the King. Where do they stay, where do they live. They could not get that because they were not living with the King. So that some people felt that if they can start this homeland then they will be helping the people of KwaNdebele.
I want to put it again to the Commission that from the point of the Kingdom I do not regret because at least they could make us to come together. Not to say apartheid was right, I am not saying that, but I would say I do not regret because at least I could bring the Ndebele people together. We could build schools, we could educate our kids and today we have got a lot of children that are educated because at the farms they could not go to school.
MR MALAN: Thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON: Any other? Thomas Manthata.
MR MANTHATA: Your Majesty, you talk about the good relations that existed between Tinzunza family and the Bantwana family, I think. Do I understand you to say that at some stage both of you or both the Kingdoms lost control of their communities when the Government was pressing for incorporation of Moutse?
KING MAYISHA: Yes, I agree that at some stage the two Royal Kraals they lost control over their people.
MR MANTHATA: In which case I understood you to mean that Imbokhoto was almost a power above those of the two Royal
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families.
KING MAYISHA: Yes.
MR MANTHATA: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Yasmin Sooka.
MS SOOKA: Your Majesty, having started the homeland, why did you then resist independence. Could you tell us the reasons for that?
KING MAYISHA: You mean me or the people?
MS SOOKA: The people.
KING MAYISHA: No well, there are many things which I can say the people, why they resisted independence. I think one of the things, they resisted independence because they felt independence is not the right way of obtaining their liberation. Most of the people, by then, they did know that they are looking for one liberation in South Africa. So that was one of the reasons and the second reason was that they had experience of over other independence which they were molesting, assaulting people. They were thinking that be getting independence they will be giving the Cabinet of that time a licence to kill. Those are the things that made the people resist.
At the same time when they wanted them to come and answer the questions about the independence, the Cabinet refused and by then when they refused, already there were people that they have molested and assaulted. So they felt, the people, that if we can accept independence it means that we are accepting our graves.
CHAIRPERSON: Joyce Seroke.
MS SEROKE: Your Majesty, you say that you were accused or arson, terrorism, public violence. Were you involved in such or was it just fabrication?
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KING MAYISHA: I was not involved in such. Actually, that was said sometimes in Parliament, but they would switch off. After the Parliament has come to an end for the day, they will discuss these things. I am talking now, I have got a subject here, Simon Kedu who is going to give witnesses here. Those were people who were saying to me I know where the fire comes from. We are not actually today trying to put somebody into court as the Bishop has said, that today is not a court, but I am saying he can say it himself, Kedu hear that, they were saying to me you know where the fire comes from because I use to say, gentlemen, do not think that there will be people coming from the cities to come and make unrest here. It will be your own children and your own people. So I was not involved in the arson.
CHAIRPERSON: Your Majesty, thank you very much. Sorry, Dr Randera.
DR RANDERA: Your Majesty, I just wanted to ask when did you actually resign, I know you said you were not chosen as a Cabinet Minister at one stage. Did you actually resign from Government or from the Parliament of the time.
KING MAYISHA: I did not resign, but I made it possible for them to dismiss me. I can say why I did not resign. Why I did not resign at the hottest time, it was because I was link between the Cabinet and the Royal family which is the youth and the people of KwaNdebele and I was playing a very, very important role which other people do not know. I was, sort of, moving information both sides and the other people whom I was reporting to, they were also not saying resign because they did know that once I resigned, they are going to lose the link, they are not going to know what is happening that side of the river.
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DR RANDERA: Sir, can I just follow that up and then ask how strong was the opposition within Parliament to the Cabinet as such then?
KING MAYISHA: There was no opposition as such, but when there were elections in 1984, there were 16 members that should be elected. Out of those members there was one person which is Prince Andries Mahlangu and then Prince Klaasma Kosana Mahlangu and then Prince James was designated. Those people who went into that Parliament with a mandate from other people outside that says you are going there to oppose the independence. I would not say there was no opposition, but those Princes, supported by me, they were strong because in the first place they were from the Royal family. Even if they were not strong in stopping them to do things, but they could make them to do all these things that they were doing to go and assault people because they want to force people to go into independence.
DR RANDERA: My last question Your Majesty is coming back to the Imbokhoto. You said quite clearly that the relationship between this grouping and some Cabinet Ministers and the leader of the Cabinet at the time, Mr Skosane and Mr Ntoli. Were the links beyond Government? In your opinion were there any links beyond Government as such? Were the SAP or the SANDF or was it purely a grouping related to the KwaNdebele Government at the time?
KING MAYISHA: According to me it was a grouping related to KwaNdebele Government. Why I am saying that is because the Chief Minister of that time lost control over his Minister of Internal Affairs which was Piet Ntoli, lost control. Ntoli was running the whole issue. So I think what was happening was that they could see the other independent
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states, the life that the President, the Prime Minister, the type of life that they were living. So the whole problem started from there. They were imagining themselves in those positions.
DR RANDERA: Thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON: Your Majesty, we thank our Majesty King Mayisha on the words that he has uttered. That his nation should not say now that things, they are talking about the things of the past. We are here to tell the truth more than anything and we will try to reconcile. The Commission has been delegated to come and assist in finding the truth and gathering the facts about what happened in the past and to get them reconciled. Our request is that the Ndebele nation should come together and be one and in case there is something that one has, if there are any rights that have been violated from other people, we should try to bring peace to the Ndebele nation. We thank you.
KING MAYISHA: Thanks very much Mr Chairman. What I am sure of is that if you can bring us together, I can see that maybe if you can try to bring us together because I have failed. When I was trying people were always afraid that maybe there was going to be other things. Another thing is that I have requested that the former Kandisi had made us bankrupt and we are still fighting to pay those debts and we are still not in a position of paying off. Our request is that those debts would be written off and I am not prepared to pay. I can rather be arrested for that.
CHAIRPERSON: What I can say is that the Premier is here with us and understands. Maybe he can have something to say about your request of writing off your debts and that they should give other people a chance to start again.
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
21 KING MAYISHA II
KING MAYISHA: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: I think so. I mean it is half past eight, it is very hot in here. Thank you very much.
MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
