MICHAEL MKHIWANE: (sworn states)
MRS SEROKE: This witness Michael Mkhiwane is going to be led by Tom Montata. Thank you.
MR MONTATA: I greet you all, fathers and mothers of the Nation as well as the children of Sebokeng, we are with you.
(no interpretation here, but presumably the witness is asked what happened in September 1984)
MR MKHIWANE: On the first of September 1984, I received a call from an anonymous person. I asked him as to who he was, because I wanted to know but he did not answer me. He tod me that he cannot tell me his name but he wanted me to resign as a member of the Council. That happened up to Sunday, that was now on the 3rd of September 1984. On the 4th it was a Monday, still in September, I was heading for my work place. I think it was in between 10 and half past ten in the morning of that very same day, I received a call from my wife, she told me that our possessions had been burned. We no longer had a house, we no longer had any possessions. As she was speaking she told me that the house was in flames.
She related to me about what she saw through the window, because she ran away from our place and she went to the neighbour's place, that's where she peeped through the window. She saw a group of people, the youth as well as elderly people. I further asked her as to whether she could identify any of the group who had come to burn my house. She HRV/1049 said/...
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said that she could not identify any of the group or any of the members of that group.
My house was burned together with all my possessions. As I was a secretary of the Ciskei Committee, way back then, the money to the amount of R1 000 which was in the house at the time that the house was burned, as well as the money that we had which was R500, that was my personal belonging. I went to report this matter with regard to the money, I went to Die Deur police station. And during those days, just after my house had been burned, the police came from Krugersdorp, they were CID's, they wanted me to give them a full statement as to what had happened. I gave them a full account of the occurrences that took place or that led to my house being burned.
Just to add to that, they even asked me as to which political organisation I belonged? Even though I knew that I was actually putting myself into a predicament, I felt I had to tell them the truth and I told them that I was a member of the African National Congress as from 1943.
I went home and at Daysicgnoete(?) I saw all the things. I made a special request to Captain Fourie that he should enlist some policemen to accompany me so that I could see how much damage had occurred at my place. He was a person who was very sympathetic, he was cooperative, he took out two cars and mine was the third. When we got to my place I did witness that everything that was there was in ashes, including my house.
We made a request to see a person who was responsible in the Council, that was Mr Hoog. We wanted to enlist some help and find out as to whether we could be helped in any way. As a member of the Executive in the Likwa City Council
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or the Vaal City Council, we made an appointment together with the Town Clerk Mr N P Louw and we arranged to go to Pretoria. We indeed went to Pretoria. That is where we gave an account of what had happened to our councillors in the dark as well as the councillors who were killed during the riots on the 4th of September 1984.
He could not promise us anything conclusive but he said he was going to pass the recommendations to the Government, so that the Government may see how it could help us. At the time we made requests to Mr Gunn who at that time was in the Development Board in the Vaal Triangle. We were offered an amount of R5 000 per each council. We were never told that that money was a loan. As time left, we were served a letter and those letters were letters of demand that we were addressed to us as members of the Council. And these letters were demanding that we repay the amount within 14 days of receipt of those letters.
I'm speaking personally, that is on my own behalf. I went to Mr Botha who's an attorney. I gave him an account of the event that led to the loan and I told him that I wouldn't be able to pay that much money because I had lost a lot. Then in 1994 I received a summons. I was being summoned to appear in Court and that I had to pay that amount of R5 000.
I took this summons to Mr Botha who was by now my attorney. After about a week, Mr Botha told me that I did not have to pay the money. I should just forget about the summonses. Time lapsed and I received a reply from the Government with regard to the request that we had made that the Government should assist us as we had lost a lot of possessions and we were left with absolutely nothing. I
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received a certain amount from the Government. This was called a State President's Fund. It was to the amount of
R8 709,50. That is the money that I received from the State President Fund.
Thereafter I realised my health was not the same as before. It was deteriorating. Where I was working at the time I was one of the President's Office, the Claims Department in the Insurance Department but because I was a councillor, I was requested to resign because I was told that the people did not accept me.
I realised that there was some negativity between myself and the employees. I was forced to resign but it was not a voluntary action. I should take it that I resigned at gun point. I notified the Black Local Authority about my resignation and that I no longer had a source of income and I wanted them to advise me as to what action I should follow. I never got a reply up till now. What I got, which I have with me now is that I have frequent dizzy spells. That even affected my eyes. I can't see properly at this moment. There are certain times when I want to read and when I read the letter, I would read only two or three paragraphs, then it would be hazy, I wouldn't see properly.
I've never been a person who remained without employment, I've always been employed throughout my life. Now after what happened, there is nothing that I can do in the form of employment. It is my wish that this honorary Commission should gain some insight and have a complete picture as to my health as from that time up to now. I cannot stand for a long time. Because I start shivering and I start having those dizzy spells. I have tried several times to go to the Department of Manpower, to apply for my HRV/1049 pension/...
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pension, then in 1994, that was in December, up to November 1995, they did pay me. In 1995 they stopped giving me the money. They never notified me that they were going to cut my payment or my income. They never even furnished reasons as to why they did this. I went to them to enquire as to why my pension had been cut. I was helped by a certain white woman who seemed to be holding a position of authority. The reason that she gave me was that my wife is working so I could not get any pension. I want this Commission to be clarified. I have suffered tremendously. If I did not have any clothes in my home where I was born, I wouldn't be having even a single thread of clothing with me. I want to make this request to this Commission because I want to get medical attention, because I need some medical attention so that my health status can go back to normal if possible.
Honourable Mrs Seroke, as well as your honourable colleagues, I wish to make this statement. I thank you sincerely for the time afforded me. Though it is not an easy way of going back and it's a very painful day to me. I have been trying to overcome all what happened to me but today is one of those days.
During the time when we were faced by the attackers, by the attackers by the 4th of September 1984, I did not care to carry any weapon. I was not provided by a weapon. I had the greatest weapon of them all, I had the great great Creator, the Almighty God. Jesus Christ my Lord was with me, I wish you a success on your task. Thank you.
MR MONTATA: Thank you Mr Mkhiwane. We don't mean to bring back into your mind the sad past of September but if we do ask you questions related with that period, is simply for you to guide us, to give us a clear picture of what had
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happened or what took place and it is in that process that we will be in a position to share with you your frustrations and the hardships that you have sustained. Could you please relax. My first question would be, when your wife phoned you, where were you at that time?
MR MKHIWANE: I was in my office at my work place that was AA Insurance Company.
MR MONTATA: You left home in the morning for work?
MR MKHIWANE: That is correct.
MR MONTATA: How was the scene in the morning that day in the farm?
MR MKHIWANE: It was a quiet day but immediately when I went out of Everton, next to the cemetery I saw a lot of trucks as well as busses and I say many people carrying sticks as well as traditional weapons and iron bars. I proceeded to work, I never thought anything could happen thereafter.
MR MONTATA: At that time, these people, didn't they have placards or posters with them that they carried aloft?
MR MKHIWANE: No I never saw any placards or posters.
MR MONTATA: But before even this time, as a councillor, had you ever heard what the feelings of the people were towards the councillors or towards the Council administration as a whole?
MR MKHIWANE: Yes there were some rumours that we as the Councillors, we were supporting the then government, that is the government of oppression. There were rumours and the rumours were quite right, that the councillors should resign from their posts because they were supporting the government of oppression.
MR MONTATA: And the councillors did consider the call of
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the people?
MR MKHIWANE: We once talked about this matter at executive level but it was apparent that the person who was actually involved with a certain political party was myself. Other people wanted to distance themselves from a certain political party and I warned them that they should be aware of those things. But I failed to persuade them to align themselves with a certain political organisation because
our main aim was for us to have a voice in the present government, or the then government of the day. That was the only way that we would be able to approach the higher hierarchy in government so that we could get our rights.
MR MONTATA: That is you talked amongst yourselves as councillors. Was there ever a joint approach to the government itself as councillors with regard to what the people were saying?
MR MKHIWANE: We did. In 1985. In 1986 we went to Cape Town in Parliament and we were afforded a chance to see the then President, P W Botha as well as the Minister of Education, as well as the Minister of Finance as well as Mr Malan and Mr Le Granje. We spoke to them and we told them about the dissatisfaction of the community. We were afforded an opportunity to get municipal police. Some of the rights that we had requested were that they should put an end to the restriction of pass as far as Black people were concerned. We wanted to put an end to borders that were being set of having passports. Those were the things that we listed as our grievances to the government but we were not assisted in any way.
MR MONTATA: You will excuse me once more to ask you, so many questions because what happened in the Vaal on that day HRV/1049 had/...
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had national and international repercussions. That is why I will come back to the question. You belonged to ANC in the '40's...(intervention).
MR MKHIWANE: '43 yes.
MR MONTATA: '43 yes. My question would be, at what point did you break away from the tradition of ANC of not listening to the voices of the people?
MR MKHIWANE: I never lost that tradition. I'm still a member of the ANC even now. The fact that we should not assist the people, you can take a cup of boiling water and pour it in the sea it will never make the sea water to boil. I was all by myself with nobody assisting me within the group. I was like a voice in the wilderness at the time. Even when I joined the Council, I was elected or requested by the community and I wanted to know as to what was contained by the Council that was representing the people and I got it and I knew it and I know it now.
I also wanted to know the core of the whole matter. I did not want to be scared away.
MR MONTATA: Right. But later, more especially when you discovered that your house was burned down, you could have read the attitude of the people that you thought you were representing in the Council, namely that they seemed to demonstrate their disapproval of your presence in the Council.
MR MKHIWANE: The people in my ward as well as other wards, even today seem to like me, even in November, in the November election, they had brought money and they wanted me to stand for election in the Council, because I could not be bribed. I did what I deemed fit for the community.
MR MONTATA: And if I understand you well, at least the
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process of reconciliation with the people, in your case has started already?
MR MKHIWANE: That is correct, even in 1985 and 1986, I used to drive my car and park it and take a walk in Zone 7B as well as A. There was absolutely no aggression and I was revered at all times and they showed sympathy as to what had happened to me. The people even today respect and revere me.
MR MONTATA: That's a very encouraging picture and I would love that it be maintained. But my next question would be, even thereafter, and even in the early '90's we still had a lot of problems here in the Vaal. What was your position or what was your opinion in terms of having to stop all this conflict?
MR MKHIWANE: I have tried all my best to, with certain people within the community, so that we could discuss these matters. I have told them several times that the Council is not their enemy but it is their rod to try and bring together the community and fight against the enemy. So we should come together as a community and fight this issue. We used to discuss those issues with other men but the fact that certain people were now very angry and aggressive, we could not succeed. We were torn apart, we did not actually see eye to eye. The community was divided as the majority did not seem to understand the way forward.
MR MONTATA: It appears, subject to correction, that the majority in the Vaal belonged to ANC and at this time, that is the late, more especially after the '90s, who did you consider as the main enemy of the Vaal?
MR MKHIWANE: I'll start by saying, I cannot point a finger but there was an enemy. There was an enemy but I don't want to point fingers and say this was specifically the enemy or
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that was specifically the enemy. There were many ANC members who died, who lost their lives within the Vaal Triangle. They were also trying to create peace and I was amongst those members of the ANC who had lost all my possessions that I had worked so hard for throughout my life. There were enemies and whenever they would fight, you could not choose a side if you decide to hit, you hit even the tree that's in front of you. That's where I'll stop.
MR MONTATA: You didn't belong to any structures that were pleading for peace, trying to bring the people of the Vaal together to end all those divisions?
MR MKHIWANE: In reality I could not give it a name, but had certain names that we had come together with. We used to discuss issues, make meetings and we would discuss our problems as well as portable resolutions but simply because as we were just a group who was conducting those meetings, we couldn't get any good out of the struggle.
MR MONTATA: If I hear you well, belonging to ANC gave you strength and finally you profess your strength comes from your faith. You refer and emotionally talk about Christ. What would you say the position or the role of the Churches here in the Vaal can be to bring about the peace and reconciliation?
MR MKHIWANE: Without doubt I can say that the Church can play a very important role in bringing peace and stability as well as unity within the community. That is what I think can bring people together to be one.
MR MONTATA: My last question would be, how do you see your Vaal community drawing in the support and the cooperation of the White community of Vereeneging, Vanderbijl Park and the lot to form a peaceful community of the Vaal Triangle?
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MR MKHIWANE: This is one of the aspects that we are very thirsty for. That there should be no colour. We are a rainbow nation and we were all created by God. In front of God's eyes, we are just one. We may have different colours as well as different languages but in front of our Creator we are just one.
MR MONTATA: Thank you. No further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Professor Meiring, do you have any questions?
Ms Joyce Seroke?
MRS SEROKE: Mr Mkhiwane, you said you realised that you should fight the oppression by being part of the core of the Council and you further said that you are a member of the ANC. Now what I want you to clarify, did you ever get any support as well as the people did they support you that you can get into the council to fight from within?
MR MKHIWANE: At that time, at the time when the ANC was banned by the Government so there was absolutely no way to come out, we used to operate underground and at the time I could not contact some of the leaders simply because most of them at the time were either detained, in exile or they had skipped the country and they wanted to enlist help from foreign countries. So I decided to fight it alone.
MRS SEROKE: It is clear from your statements that you have just given us today that you are very disturbed, very devastated that you had to lose all your possessions and up till now your health hasn't been the same and according to your statement you feel it apparent that, you feel that the Government has let you down because you were working for the very same government that let you down and now when you discover yourself to be in a predicament, there's absolutely no help that you get from the government. I want to know
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from you, you've already explained that you can't get your pension, you once got it but at some stage it was cut. Now what I want to know from you, what are your expectations from us as the TRC? What do you want us to do about your situation? We've already heard about your health, that needs to get medical attention and be attended to. Did you want also the pension matter to be sorted out?
MR MKHIWANE: Your honourable one, with great respect I would appreciate an effort that could be made with regard to my pension. That is the main aspect that I'm hoping could bring my life back to normal because I don't have any source of income at the moment. Because even if I'm from Zone 10 to Everton when I go to Church, I always have to ask my children to give me money for the fares. Even the donations from the Church, I have to ask from my children. With great respect I do ask you to do something.
MRS SEROKE: We promise that we shall try by all means. We don't have the necessary authority to give people conclusions that we shall do this or that but we pass these resolutions, these recommendations to the State President who takes resolutions, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkhiwane, before I thank you for coming, I just want to clarify a few issues myself. Can you please tell us, you said your wife was at home and you've also mentioned your children. Were they in the house at the time, was there anybody who was injured during the burning of your house?
MR MKHIWANE: Fortunately there is one youth who was a member of the committee in ward - he came and rescued my family. He took them to Zone 10, I'm sorry that was Zone 7 and he took my wife to the third house from our place and he HRV/1049 pointed/...
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pointed out that there should be nobody inside because he could see that they would get started burning other Councillors' houses, so nobody was injured.
CHAIRPERSON: Yesterday and again today, we had some of your colleagues here from that time. People say, they burned our house down. Who is this they, I mean were they just ordinary people who marched in the streets, was there an organisation behind it, who is the they?
MR MKHIWANE: Because I was not at home at that time, I was told that it was a group of youths as well as older people. It was a very big group.
CHAIRPERSON: So if I can just press you on this a little.
You are from what you've said, yourself, you were a member of a banned organisation, you became a member of a council, you must have had a perspective at the time. What was the perspective?
MR MKHIWANE: I will ask you to repeat the question. I don't think I understand it very well.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what I'm saying is that you have said that you were a member of a banned organisation. You became a member of a council who wasn't approved by the people, it seemed. There must have been an analysis. You're saying it was a big group of people. You must have talked about it afterwards with your fellow councillors, with the police, with the Administration. In terms of the perspective of the time, who was behind all this? Was it spontaneous, is that what you're telling us, it was all spontaneous?
MR MKHIWANE: As I have already explained, it was called a strong rumour but there was no specific person that I can point a finger at and say this is the person who actually caused the whole thing. It was a rumour within the HRV/1049 community/...
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community itself.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, I just want to ask two
more questions. Mr Mkhiwane, one is we heard that your house was burned down on the first of September 1984, and you then said that you were part of a delegation that went to meet to meet with some of the government of the day in 1985/1986. Now but in that time did you remain a councillor, were you still paid as a councillor, when did your lifespan as a councillor actually finish?
MR MKHIWANE: I stopped being a member of the council in May 1990 and when all ...(indistinct) van Zyl put an end to the Council over the TV but he never spoke to us.
MR MONTATA: So during that time between 1984 and 1990, you remained a councillor and you continued to be paid as a councillor?
MR MKHIWANE: As from 1984, until May 1990.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mkhiwane, I have no further questions. My task is to thank you for coming today. It is, you have come with nobility of spirit here today. You have come with an open mind, you have told us that you are a man of peace, a man of God. We have heard what you expectations are of the Commission and as Ms Seroke said, we will pass that on to the relevant Committee and of course we will come back to you. We thank you for coming here today.
