CHAIRPERSON: Maybe can we just stand for five minutes before we ask the witness who is the first one in this hall, Mr Isaacs, Henry Isaacs. He will be the next one. If we can all just stand and stretch our legs while Mr Isaacs is coming forward to take the stand.
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HENRY ISAACS: (Duly sworn, states).
MR LEWIN: ... to tell the story which covers a long period or certainly covers the whole period of the Commission, from the Sixties through to quite recently, and also inside and outside of the country. If you could tell your story us, please. Thanks.
MR ISAACS: My name is Henry Isaacs, and I am originally from Pietermaritzburg in Natal where I matriculated. After which I studied at the University of the Western Cape, from 1968 until 1973. During that time I was active in various political organisations, various student organisations, amongst them the National Union of South African Students, the University Christian Movement and later was one of the founding members of the South African Students Organisation.
I was also the President of the Students Representative Council at the University of the Western Cape.
Now the University of the Western Cape at that particular time was one of the various tribal universities
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set up by the authorities in pursuit of its policies of apartheid. Student activities were strictly regulated, not only in terms of the university's own rules and regulations, but more particularly, by the activities of the security police. We were subjected to constant harassment and intimidation and this included regular detention, interrogation by various police officers and in the Western Cape at that particular time there were a number of security policemen who operated freely on the campus of the University of the Western Cape. These included a Sgt Spyker van Wyk, an Andries van Wyk, a Sgt Small and a Sgt Lottering.
In Durban where we also frequently held conferences and meetings, our main interrogators were a Capt Welman and I think a Lieut Taylor. As a result of my leadership role in the University of the Western Cape's Student Council, as well as the South African Students Organisation, I was subsequently placed under a banning and house arrest in terms of the so-called Suppression of Communism Act. The banning order was served on me at Port Elizabeth in an attempt to prevent me giving evidence in defence of Barney Pachana, who at that time had been banned and was restricted to Port Elizabeth and the security police were attempting to bring various charges against him.
After detention in Port Elizabeth I was then transported to Pietermaritzburg where I was then placed under banning and house arrest in the evenings, at weekends and on public holidays.
In Pietermaritzburg, because there were really very few activists who were living under restriction at that particular time, it meant that the bulk of the security
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force maintained constant surveillance over the handful of us who were living under restriction. At that particular time there were seven police officers, a Lieut Fourie, Warrant-Officer Lochner, Sgt Gould, Sgt Khabasha, Sgt Mkhize, Sgt Naidoo and another young officer named Krish, whose surname I do not know.
They harassed and not only myself as an individual but also my family, relatives, friends, as well as prospective employers. Some idea of the extent of the harassment to which we were subjected at that particular time, could be gained from the fact that at the time of my banning, I was five months away from completing my law degree. The University of Natal which has an excellen law school right in Pietermaritzburg, was quite prepared to provide tuition to enable me to complete the degree. The University of the Western Cape at that particular time had a White administration that was colluding with the security police, refused to provide a certificate which would have enabled me to enroll with the University of South Africa and in that way complete my studies.
In addition to that, they refused to provide a so-called statement of good conduct, which would have enabled me to enroll at the University of South Africa.
While we were subjected to this kind of harassment and an attempt literally to break our spirits, there were a number of individuals who during that time provided tremendous moral support and whose names I do want to mention very briefly here. They were Mrs Nomtusi Mbege who lived in Soweto at the time, but who frequently visited detainees and restricted persons in different parts of the country, to offer moral support and to bring information
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about what was going on. There was Deborah Motshaba who was also based here in Soweto. There was Ilphe Makai from the Eastern Cape. Soma Reddy from Durban and at that particular time, Auntie Phyllis Naidoo, who was a lawyer living under banning and restriction in Durban, was also a tremendous inspiration to very ....
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... we were subjected to this kind of persecution.
I am mentioning this, because it is important that while these hearings have focused on the experiences of those who have been described as victims, it is also important to understand fully that when we were involved in the struggle, we fully expected the retribution that the State then meted out to us and very many of us survived that, because of the support and solidarity, not only from our family and friends, but fellow activists and others in the community. Very many of whose contributions have largely gone unnoticed and unrecognised.
Another person whose name I do wish to mention here and who at that particular time suffered a great deal of harassment also, was the Secretary-General of the South African Council of Churches. His name was Cecil John Rees. The State subsequently brought charges of fraud against him, ostensibly for embezzling funds from the South African Council of Churches. Those of us who were activists refused to believe that he did that, but that was an attempt on the part of the regime to discredit and ultimately destroy him politically.
One of the things that I would urge the Commission to do is to investigate some of these kinds of actions on the part of the State, particularly with a view to
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rehabilitating the memory as well as the images of those people who were involved in the struggle in that particular way and who rendered assistance, particularly since they are no longer with us.
After having been found guilty of violating my banning order and being sentenced to 18 months imprisonment, suspended for a period of time, and as a result of the intense harassment of my family and friends, I decided to leave the country and I fled into exile in 1974, December of 1974.
After a brief stay in Swaziland, I ultimately went to New Zealand where I studied at Victoria University of Wellington under a scholarship provided by the New Zealand University Students Association.
While in exile I continued my active involvement in the struggle against apartheid, particularly working with New Zealand organisations such as halting all racist tours, which was mobilising against sporting contacts with South Africa, and the anti-apartheid movements in New Zealand, as well as in Australia, where various South African exiles, including Neville Curtis, who was the President of the National Union of South African Students at that particular time of his banning was one of the prime organisers.
After my stay in Australasia I subsequently joined the Pan Africanist Congress or PAC. Upon completion of my studies I moved to Tanzania where I was elected to the Central Committee of the PAC, and served in various capacities, leadership positions as director of education and manpower developments and subsequently as their representative at the United Nations and director of foreign affairs until my resignation in 1982.
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My resignation in 1982 took place at a time when the organisation had experienced tremendous internal crises and these crises included the assassination of David Sebeko in 1979 and the assassinations of a number of militarily trained cadres at the organisation's camps in Tunya and Ambeya in Southern Tanzania.
There was an inability on the part of the leadership, both to recognise the intensity of the problems or to deal with them. Following an attempt on the part of some of us to present solutions that webelieved could address the problems, there was a reluctance on the part of the leadership to accept them and so there was a parting of the ways.
I subsequently relocated to Zimbabwe. Now following my resignation, I had made application to the Ministry of Justice in Zimbabwe for a position. This was at a time when there was a serious shortage of lawyers and the country was recruiting lawyers from different parts of the world. My application for employment was supported by, at that time Dr Evo Mondasa who was the permanent secretary in the Ministry of Labour and the permanent secretary in the Ministry of Justice, Mrs Chaneska.
After all the arrangements were made for my relocation from the United States to Zimbabwe to take up the position, the leadership of the PAC then intervened and in the process made various allegations to the Zimbabwean authorities. Principally the fact that because I had married an American citizen who worked for the African American Institute, that I was therefore an agent of the CIA.
Now the absurdity of this kind of allegation could be seen in the fact that very many of the South Africans were
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educated on scholarships provided by the African American Institute and very many of the persons who made those kinds of allegations did not ever decline invitations to conferences, workshops or the various cocktail parties organised by the African American Institute. But these kinds of smears, slander and vilification as well as character assassination were the stock in trade of exile politics.
Following the PAC's intervention of the Zimbabwe authorities, the position, the job offer was then withdrawn, but as a result of the intervention of the Minister of Home Affairs, at that time Dr Herbert Oshiokunze, I was granted a temporary residence permit in Zimbabwe.
In the three years that we lived there, we were subjected to constant harassment by the Central Intelligence Organisation in Zimbabwe, at the instigation of the PAC. Leaders of the PAC and at that particular time, the person who was leading this particular campaign to have me either detained or deported by the Zimabweans, was Mr Gorrah Ebrahim, who is today a member of Parliament for the PAC, Mr Joe Kunazi who is a member of the Provincial Legislature in KwaZulu/Natal, the former chairman of Central Committee of the PAC, the late Nyati John Puchella.
In 1983 while the Minister of Home Affairs, Dr Herbrert Oshiokunze was overseas on government business, the PAC succeeded in getting the Central Intelligence Organisation to prepare and present to the acting Minister of Home Affairs, Dr Sydney Sacharamy, a deportation order against me. But fortunately Dr Sacharamy refused to sign the deportation order and insisted that the matter be held in abeyance until the return of Dr Oshiokunze. When
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Dr Oshiokunze returned from his overseas trip he refused to sign the deportation order, on the ground that Zimbabweans had no reason to deport me, and that whatever problems the PAC leadership had, that was a matter for them to resolve with me.
Shortly thereafter I took up residence at the University of California in Santa Cruz where I was a research associate. In the time that I was then away the PAC then attempted again to have me deported, to have my family deported, but again because of support from various government ministers in Zimbabwe, as well as a director of intelligence with whom I had worked closely when we were at the United Nations together, the PAC's efforts failed.
I am relating this because I firmly believe that while there is a need for reconciliation, particularly as has been stressed, the need to forgive the oppressors, I think there is an equal need for reconciliation amongst the former oppressed and that aspect of reconciliation has hardly been emphasised.
I think that from some of the testimony that I have listened to here today, it becomes very clear that that is an equally important aspect of this whole process.
Not long after my completion of my tenure at the University of California at Santa Cruz, I returned to Zimbabwe and in the time that I was there, following return, several other South African refugees, as well as former exiles came to Zimbabwe. Some of them I knew personally and therefore they attempted to establish contact with me. But then they were also subjected to harassments by the Central Intelligence Organisation at the instigation of the PAC, which then alleged to the Zimbabwean authorities that I was
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attempting to establish a new faction wing of the PAC, which was something that was totally untrue, as I was no longer politically active.
I wrote a book in 1985, the end of 1985, beginning of 1986, entitled Struggles within the Struggle. This book attempts to analyse the origins of the South African liberation struggle, from its earliest times and explains the ideological differences between the ANC and the PAC, the Communist Party, the Unity Movements, the Black Conscious Movement and then the United Democratic Front. The book then also examines the international environment in which the liberation movements functioned in exile, and attempted to explain the manner in which these organisations found themselves competing for support and resources and thereby increased the hostility between them rather than the co-ordination and co-operation.
The book was to be published by Z Books of London, a progressive company that had published quite a few titles in South Africa. The leaders of the PAC, without having read the manuscript or without even having read the book, feared that the book was some kind of exposé and threatened the publishers with multiple libel actions. Even though the publishing company believed that these libel actions would not succeed, the costs of defending of libel actions in Britain would have been ruinously expensive for a small publishing company like Z Books. So they decided to withdraw publication after the first run of 4 000 copies had been published.
As a result of the harassments and persecution to which we were subjected in Zimbabwe, I subsequently decided to return to the United States. But at a personal level the
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kind of pressure to which we were subjected, placed tremendous strains upon my family, particularly because I was married to an American citizen, who was not prepared for this kind of persecution on the part of a South African liberation movement in which I had been closely involved, and I think that that was to have a serious effect from which the marriage in fact was never able to recover. That however, aside.
I subsequently spent five years in the United States, during which time I worked as a visiting professor at the University of Haverford in Pensyllvania and also as a fellow at Yale University in the Southern Africa Research Programme. I also headed a non-profit organisation in Washington DC. In that capacity I continued my active involvement in the struggle, mainly to raise support for South African organisations and also to arrange regular programmes in the United States for visiting South Africans, as well as representatives of the liberation movements. Amongst some of the people who participated in the regular programmes that we organised, were Prof Jakes Gerwel, who is today Cabinet secretary, Mr Lindi Mabuso who is today the ambassador to West Germany and in all these activities, I attempted to maintain strict neutrality without favouring one organisation over and above the other, because my commitments were to the South African liberation struggle.
I returned to South Africa in 1990, after the political changes that took place. In the same year organised a visit to South Africa, Namibia and Swaziland for a group of United States college presidents who were looking for ways and means of supporting efforts in the areas of education and training for South Africans.
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What I have discovered is that both the kind of persecution that I have described at the hands of the liberation movements, particularly the PAC, as well as the persecution at the hands of the security police, to which I had been subjected before my flight into exile, continued. Even though the security police have ostensibly been dismantled and deployed in other areas, I think what is important to understand, is that during the apartheid era, there were not just formal networks but there were also informal networks. When one speaks of a Third Force that forments violence and is engaged in various nefarious activities, one has to look also at these informal networks that continue to undermine the efforts to establish a democratic society as well as a human rights culture in this society or in this country.
Since 1990 the harassments have continued in various forms. This has included strange burglaries at my home. It has included the harassment of a person with whom I was involved in a major Black economic power initiative, to the extent where he even though he was White, felt that it was better for him to leave the country than continue to live here.
Unfortunately in very many of these activities the attorneys who represent my now former wife, have been closely involved and they have largely been able to exploit their contacts with the security forces as well as other corrupt elements within the whole criminal justice system. This is important to understand, particularly when one looks at the creation of a human rights culture in our country. We cannot begin to look at the creation of a human rights culture in this country, without looking at the institutions SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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that have played a critical role in the oppression of the majority of people over an historic period of time, and in the systematic denial of human rights. Here I refer specifically to the judiciary and to the organised legal profession, and while very many of the police who have been named as violators of human rights have been identified, we must understand that they operated not in a vacuum, but in a particular environment.
The laws under which we were banned were written by legal technocrats. We were prosecuted not by ordinary lay policemen, but by trained lawyers who were zealous prosecutors in the criminal justice system. We were sentenced to terms of imprisonment by magistrates and judges, all of whom were legally trained and who readily accepted the evidence of the State, regardless of the fact that such evidence was in many cases either fabricated or alternatively extracted under duress through torture and other illegal methods.
This aspect is important to understand, because at the present time it is extremely difficult to find a single person who supported apartheid. It is almost akin to the situation in post-war Germany when all of a sudden nobody supported Nazism and there were no Nazis. This is what makes it extremely difficult for us to either forgive or to forget. There does not seem to be any contrition or any remorse on the part of those who subjected us to the atrocities and the violations of human rights.
In saying so, we are not trying to be vengeful or harp on the past, whatever the case may be, but this country has lost some of the sharpest minds that it has been able to produce.
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When one thinks of the Steve Bikos, the Makepo Mohapis, the Dulcie Septembers, the Joe Gqabis, these people who in any other society would have been held in the highest esteem, but unfortunately we have come from a past where not only were they subjected to various forms of harassment, discrimination, devastating humiliations in the social political and economic spheres, but in many cases they were ultimately killed.
I think that an important role that this Commission can play is in fact to ensure that we ultimately have an accurate record of our struggle and the sacrifices and contributions that have been made, so that we do not have sanitised versions of our history. Because if we criticise the National Party for the kinds of history that they produced, we cannot then fall foul to the same kind of malpractice of a version that is favourable to what might be a particular tendency at any given time in our history.
I think that truth knows no colour and in the work of the Commission we must ensure that ultimately we will be pursuing a truth that will stand the test of time.
One final plea that I do want to make to the Commission is that there have been very many individuals or careers have either been truncated or adversely affected through false allegations, very many times allegations either fabricated or planted by the security police themselves. Allegations of individuals, either being spies or agents or whatever the case might be.
I would urge the Commission to try and ensure that the security forces reveal as many of the names of the actual informers who were in their pay and employ during the apartheid years. So that the suspicions that have
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surrounded very many people who have been falsely accused can somehow be removed and either the images or reputations of those individuals be vindicated or alternatively, for posterity's sake, we know who the actual collaborators were. The danger is that we will ultimately or there is a danger that there were individuals who murdered activists, who tortured and maimed anti-apartheid activists who functioned as collaborators with the apartheid regime, who are today being embraced and there are very many activists who made tremendous sacrifices in the struggle, yet whose contributions have either gone unnoticed or alternatively, whose reputations had been damaged as a result of these false allegations. Thank you.
(APPLAUSE: )
MR LEWIN: Mr Isaacs, thanks very much indeed. Could I ask just a couple of points of clarification. I am particularly interested in your reference to Dave Sebeko's assassination in Dar-Es-Salaam in 1979. If you could tell us a little bit more about that and also you mention that the fact that a large number of people had been killed in camps in Tanzania. Could you give us some more details of that?
MR ISAACS: Yes. David Sebeko was assassinated in June of 1979. He was assassinated by the military wing of the PAC, four cadres were subsequently arrested and sentenced to terms of imprisonment by the Tazanian authorities. I think they were sentenced to 10 years imprisonment. My information is that one of the persons who served 10 years imprisonment for the murder of Dave Sebeko is currently a sergeant in the South African National Defence Force here. But David's assassination was part of a plot on the part of the military wing to assassinate the entire central
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committee at that particular time. These cadres argued spuriously that the liberation struggle in Zimbabwe had not made any progress until the political leadership, consisting of the late Herbert Chepepo and others had been eliminated by the military wing Ozano or Zanla at that particular time, and that the Organisation of African Unity, through its liberation committee had subsequently recognised the military forces as the dominant entity in the Zimbabwean liberation struggle, and they believed that if they did the same in the PAC, then they will equally be granted recognition by the Organisation of African Unity through its liberation committee.
The exact number of cadres who were killed in those camps is not known up to today. One of the persons who was killed and whom I know was killed, and I know personally, was Cohen Ntuli. He was the brother of the well-known sculptor from Swaziland, Petiga Ntuli.
MR LEWIN: I mean, can you put a rough figure on it at all? Was it in tens or more than that, nearer hundreds?
MR ISAACS: The exact number is in the region of 22 in Tanzania and 22 in Lesotho. That is from my research.
MR LEWIN: Thank you. Could I, before handing back to the Chair, just ask what might seem a stupid question, and it is this; when we are looking at the cases of people, at the testimony of people, we need to in some way or another determine the status of their being a victim. Now you have mentioned the regime or the system and various names of people who harassed you in the past, Spyker van Wyk and others. Do you want us to add to that the PAC as an organisation in terms of the harassment which you say you have been subjected to, particularly in the Seventies and
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Eighties?
MR ISAACS: Well, yes, I certainly do want the PAC as an organisation added, because there will probably be other individuals who will also testify before the Commission and who will be able to expand on the kind of harassment to which they were subjected as individuals in the organisation.
MR LEWIN: Thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Other Commissioners will ask you a few questions. Joyce Seroke? Yasmin Sooka?
MS SOOKA: I just have a few questions. You mention that you were banned in July of 1973. So as to prevent you from giving evidence for the defence in the trial of Barney Puchana. Could you tell me for how long you were banned and did that indeed prevent you from giving evidence?
MR ISAACS: Yes. The banning order was for five years. On the morning of Barney Puchana's trial, when I was due to go to court, the security police arrived at the house where I was living and then took me away. They prevented me from giving evidence in Barney's defence. I was kept at Sanlam, at Sanlam security police headquarters in Port Elizabeth for the entire day and it seems that they were waiting for the banning order to be flown from Cape Town. It was then served on me in the afternoon and I was then detained in Port Elizabeth for several days before being transported to Pietermaritzburg. The term of the banning order though was for five years and it included house arrest on weekends and on public holidays.
MS SOOKA: In your evidence you talk about the fact that the universities, in a sense, during that period, the security branch had complete access to all the universities which
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were traditionally called the tribal universities.
MR ISAACS: Yes.
MS SOOKA: Part of, I think the work of this Commission, is to make recommendations to government to ensure that gross human rights violations do not take place again. I think particularly in the case of the tribal universities, it seems that the - it depended on the political party which was in power, which then allowed free access and students were then subjected to reigns of terror.
MR ISAACS: That's correct.
MS SOOKA: What would you suggest is a mechanism to ensure that that sort of thing doesn't happen again in the future?
MR ISAACS: Well, my own view is that the best custodians of democracy and of human rights in our country will be an educated community that is actively involved in every aspect of the attempts to establish a new democratic order. I firmly believe that the universities should be under the control and guidance of completely independent and autonomous councils or senates, but that there should be representation from the communities, so that the governing bodies of these universities reflect not just the demographics of the society itself, but also the new emerging order, an order in which the values of transparency and accountability are held as top priorities. I think that that is the only way in which the kind of interference that existed in the past can be prevented in future.
MS SOOKA: You also refer in your statement to the fact that in 1978 you were elected to the central committee. Could you tell us how many members there were on that central committee and who they were.
MR ISAACS: At that particular time there were 14 members of
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the central committee of the PAC. The chairman of the central committee was PK Lobaylo. The other members of the central committee inluded David Sebeko, Vuse Make, Elizabeth Sebeko, Elias Nkludibe, Ingile Mondane, Edwin Mokote ... Nine. Okay, I do not recall all the names off-hand right now, but what I will do is I will make available to the Commission a copy of the book that I wrote, Struggles within the Struggle. It lists all the names and like I said, it gives a detailed chronology of the events that affected the movements in exile, and I believe that it will be an important part of the record that you are currently attempting to establish.
MS SOOKA: I will ask you just two more questions, and then if you are going to hand in the book, I don't think we really need to take it further. I think the book will be a sufficient resource base for us then, to explore what you have actually set in your submission.
Just in terms of the 14 members how many of them were actually assassinated then?
MR ISAACS: David Sebeko was assassinated in 1979. Benedict Sondlo was assassinated in 1984. So it is much later. Vuse Make was with David Sebeko when David was assassinated and he was also the target for assassination. But he escaped by hiding or shielding behind the refrigerator and the bullets were then reflected by the refrigerator and that was how he escaped.
MS SOOKA: Could you tell us what you actually do now?
MR ISAACS: I work as a management consultant right now. Initially my principal prime base was non-governmental organisations and community-based organisations. I also do work for mainly Canadian and American companies who either
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invest in this country or seek to invest in the Southern African region.
MS SOOKA: Thank you. I don't have any further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I just have one or two comments. You mention in your statement that because you were married to an American citizen, people suspected you to be a spy. Did you inform your ex-wife that you would be coming here to give your testimony so that maybe she could be part of the healing process as well?
MR ISAACS: No, that is because the relationship is non-existent, communication is in fact extremely bad. No, I didn't say that they suspected that I was a spy. After the fall-out, after my resignation in 1982, because I was married to an American citizen, they then made allegations that I was - they would say oh, Isaacs is CIA, that kind of thing. But then, like I said, such smears were also the stock in trade of exile politics.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Just a related comment. You mention something very, very important. You said there will be a need for reconciliation, even within the community of the oppressed themselves. Can you make some, can you give us your perspective on that, because partly the aim of the Act that guides us is to promote national reconciliation.
MR ISAACS: Well, my suggestion is based on my experiences in Zimbabwe and my observations in Namibia. These two countries are also countries that gained independence after years of struggle and were ultimately under the leadership of political organisations that were previous liberation movements. But because of the nature of the political settlements they were forced to pursue policies of national reconciliation, but on closer examination, the policies of
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national reconciliation meant essentially that those liberation movements were pressurised to forgive the former oppressors, and in the case of Zimbabwe, for instance, while Ian Smith lived happily and peacefully, the same could not be said of the people in Matebeleland, where the civil war had seriously traumatised the people of Matebeleland, and it is only now that the atrocities and human rights violations that took place there in the period between 1983 and 1986 are being addressed in a serious fashion.
Similarly in the case of Namibia. Shortly before the elections in 1989, allegations were made against Swapo of very serious violations of human rights in their camps in Angola. It is only now that there is a serious attempt to address those particular grievances and there were recent calls for the establishment of a truth and reconciliation commission in Namibia, akin to the one that has been established here.
When one looks at our own experiences, while there has been a readiness and a preparedness to forgive, even those who murdered anti-apartheid activists, I have seen very little willingness to forgive and forget amongst individuals in organisations where there have been political or ideological differences. Similarly, there hasn't been a readiness and a willingness to have the same kind of reconciliation amongst different political organisations. It is this kind of unwillingness to seriously reconcile on the part of the oppressed, that exposes us to the kind of manipulation by the Third Force that makes possible the violence that has so ravished communities in this part of the country as well as KwaZulu/Natal.
So what I am saying is that inasmuch as there is a need SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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to emphasise reconciliation, I think that those of us or those who are in positions of leadership need to set the example for genuine reconciliation amongst those who were formerly oppressed. I think that this start could be made at the level of political leadership, so that the followers can see that there is a genuine attempt to reconcile political differences with a view to establishing a culture that tolerates differences.
When one looks at the former oppressed communities in this country, it is not uncommon to find that two individuals who belong to two different political organisations, do not even speak to each other. They have so personalised their political differences, that it makes personal friendships or communications difficult.
In the United States, for instance, you may find a Democrat and a Republican slogging it out on the floors of Congress and in the Senate, and they would walk out and share a dinner or a meal together. The political differences do not necessarily stand in the way of personal communication and friendship.
This is what I am saying, there is a need for those of us who were previously oppressed and who were involved in the liberation struggle, to begin to live out.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I will ask Glenda Wildschut to thank you.
MS WILDSCHUT: Thank you very much for coming before the Commission today. The insights that you have given us indeed help us to be aware and to recognise some of the very important tasks that lie before us as a nation and as individuals to move towards reconciliation. You have made reference in general to the vindication of victims, the
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vindication of people who have been given titles and labels and given - stripped of their status within communities. We need to think of ways in which people's dignity in that respect can be restored.
You have also shared some of your own insights with us about how we can strengthen civil society so that we ensure that human rights abuses do not take place again. In particular, you have referred to the issue of governance at institutions and universities and you have also made reference to strengthening institutions like the judiciary, that we can ensure that we have a strong legal system, for example, that could address some of these human rights violations.
I think that it is important that we hear your plea about people whose careers who have been truncated, people who could have been leaders in this country and whom we could have benefited from their wisdom and from their - ja, from their wisdom, and that now we are suffering that loss and that in fact we do not have the leaders that we could have had had these human rights violations not taken place and people have not died. Thank you very much for coming before us.
MR ISAACS: Thankyou.
(APPLAUSE)
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