(EVIDENCE STARTS AFTER ADJOURNMENT - THE EVIDENCE OF MR PADI STARTS IN THE MIDDLE) ....
MR PADI
... and we were driven to Pretoria. At Pretoria I was throughly interrogated by hefty guys there and I could see that anything could happen. But well, I kept my cool until they threatened, came up with all sorts of threats, that they will do this, that and the other if I don't tell them the whereabouts of Dumi and I said look, I don't know where he is. Until eventually one of them said "man, ons mors ons tyd, ons sal niks kry van die man af nie, laat ons hom maar los" (man, we are wasting our time, he is not going to tell us anything, we might as well let him go). I was taken back home together with my family.
In 1989, it was roundabout fivish in the afternoon then I got a call to go somewhere out at Naledi, Endeni rather. I got to Endeni with my wife. When we got there we find Dumi there with a friend of his. We are just too happy to see him back in the country. Then he said look, daddy and mommy, I am not going to be long, and please don't ask me where I will be staying now, could you help us with some clothing and some money. That we did and we parted with him.
He had since been on the run. This went on for about
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two months or so, two or three months and I got a call one afternoon that he has been arrested by the police. It was roundabout one pm, one in the afternoon, somewhere in Orlando East.
I tried to get in touch with the police and they told me that I will not be able to see him until after about six months because he has been placed under Section 29, I think that is Section 29, I will not be able to see me, myself, my lawyer, doctors, nobody will see him and "hy sal die waarheid praat" (he will tell the truth). That is what they said.
I said okay, what is the charge, why did you arrest him. He said because they left the country and came back without the necessary documentation and he has joined Umkhonto weSizwe. So that is the reason why we say that you will not be able to see him.
Well, there was nothing else I could do, but nevertheless I informed my legal representatives and they too couldn't do anything until after six months.
After six months we were allowed to see him at the Protea. When I got there I found him chained hands and his legs were chained and we were told now look, all you do is ask about family matters and nothing else relating to his detention, why and wherefore and what happened to him. The next thing we also have the police seated next to us, to ensure that we just discuss family matters and nothing else relating to his detention. And we did just that. Thereafter we left and waited for the day he will be going to court.
The day came when he went to court and in court the case led on for some time, for about a year. That was 1990, SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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I think. Ja, ja, 1990 and then roundabout October, roundabout October the case was postponed to the following year. We asked if he could get bail. They said no. I said no, we will take care of him, ensure that he does not leave the country, he should stand a fair trial. They said no dice, you failed while he was still a school boy. Now that he is a man, what chance do you have, and he is even now more dangerous than he was at that time. So he remained in detention.
Roundabout November 1990 he arrived at home on a Saturday, shortly - I think it was shortly after the release of Comrade Sisulu and Masledi. No, no, he was released in that same year. That afternoon when I got home, I asked Dumi, what are you doing here, what happened, you are supposed to be in jail. He said no, daddy, we were also - we are released, as the Masledis and the Sisulus, so don't be surprised.
So okay, if that is the case, then fine, I am happy about that. He said but incidentally, I will not be staying at home, you see. So we will just communicate telephonically. I gave him whatever he wanted and he left. That was on November and on Monday, about two am the police arrived looking for him. I told them that yes, he came, he was here on Saturday and I don't know where he is right now. What, why do you want him and they said he escaped from Johannesburg prison. They wanted to know from me why didn't I inform them immediately. I said no, but how could I have, because he told me that they were released. They said but could we have released them on a Saturday. I said look, I woulnd't like to commit myself seeing that even Mr Sisulu and Mr Masledi were released on the Saturday, they were
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released on a Sunday, he arrived on a Sunday morning. I said we met them on the arrival that Sunday morning. So I was not surprised when he told me about this. So they said now look, if you do get in touch with him tell him to go and report to the police station. I said no, okay, I will impart that matter to him as soon as I see him. When next he came, I told him. He said okay, daddy, I will get in touch with
them, don't worry, leave that to me.
The following year, on January, on February the 5th, on February the 5th, it was a Monday, when I got a call ... Ja, I think it was February the 5th when I got a call at work that the police were seen jumping into my yard and they don't know what is happening. So I asked the comrade that told me about that, Cecil Mkwena, that go and find out from them exactly what they wanted. Mkwena went and introduced himself as a neighbour and the policeman too introduced himself to him as a certain Terblanche, and asked them what they wanted, because we are not in. Terblanche said to him that look, we know that they are not at home and the children are at school. Now look, don't ask too many questions, can you take care of this house because we have broken the back and front doors, including the toilet door. Please take care of that house up until they come back and Cecil Mkwena said no, no, I cannot do that, you had better get in touch with them, tell them what you did. They said we don't know where he works.
Cecil said here is his phone number, phone him and tell him that you did all this. So that was about ten o'clock and about elevenish I got a call from a gentleman that called himself Sgt Schoeman. He wanted to know where I worked, the address and I said are you the man that broke
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into my house. He said look, don't ask any questions, all I want to know is what is your work address. I told him that look, the only time that I will give you that information is when I get home, I will be there at one pm, so you could wait for me there or come a little bit later, I am leaving right now, I am going back home, and I will give you the information that you want. I dropped the phone.
The next thing he phoned again and said no, please, tell me what is your work address. I said look, I am not
going to give you that information, you will only get it when I get home, so just be patient, in an hour and a half I will be there and I will give you the information you want. I was just about to drop the phone, when he said "kaffertjie, ons gaan nou daai huis van jou uitbrand" - (kaffertjie, we are now oing to burn your house to the ground). I said no, you can do even worser things but you will get the information you want as soon as I get there. So I dropped the phone.
At about 10:45 I got home and I found that my fence had been damaged and the two doors, back and front were broken and the toilet door also broken. Surprisingly, there was no need even to break that door, because it was easy to open it. Why they broke it; well, I just don't know, but that is just what they did.
And of course, well, with the two doors, the back and the front, well, one understands, they were locked. So they had broken in and I find the furniture had been moved around and clothing scattered all over the house. Meaning that they did a thorough search of the house and I had some money in the house, about R4 500,00 belonging to an organisation called Mhlope Association. That was missing.
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That day the police did not turn up at one. I told them I will be there at one. Nor did they come that evening, nor did they come the following day. They only came on Wednesday, the 7th February 1992, roundabout, I think it could have been roundabout eight, eight pm. Eight pm when they arrived and I could hear them jumping over the fence and I told my wife our visitors have just arrived, let's wait for them and see what happens. In no time there was a knock at the back and at the front. I said please come in, gentlemen, you are welcome and they came in.
They were led by this gentleman who introduced himself by the name of Sgt Johannes Schoeman and his colleague introduced himself as a Sgt Niemand. One of their colleagues was a Black guy, his name is, I asked what his name was, he said his name is Lorato. The three of them came in and I said are you the guys that broke into my house and Schoeman said "ja, ek het ingebreek, en jy kan nie die telefoon op my sit nie, wat ek met jou praat nie" (yes, I was the one who broke in and now you are unable put the phone down in my ear whilst I am talking to you), because I remember that he said, after he couldn't respond to my question, I replaced the receiver, and he said "vandag sal jy die waarheid praat" (today you are going to tell the truth).
I said okay, fine. He said get dressed, "die res sal jy hoor wat ons daar by die polisiestasie kom" (you will find out the rest of the story when we get to the police station). A warrant of arrest was produced. I was just told to get dressed and to proceed to Protea. So I got into their car and proceeded to Protea police station.
There again I was asked "die man is 'n hardegat, ons
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sal hom regmaak vandag" (this man is very pig-headed, we shall fix him today). I said I will wait and see what happens.
We got into a room and they started asking me where is Dumi. I said no, I don't know. They say if you don't tell us we are going to put you under Section 29, and putting you under Section 29 will deal with you good and thoroughly. During that period we will deal with you and no doctor, no lawyer will be able to see you. The only time when they will be able to see you will be after you have healed completely, all the wounds on your body will have healed. That will be say roundabout after six months or so. I said look, whatever you guys do, still I don't know his whereabouts. They said, and this guy Schoeman pulled me up and started punching me, kicking me, all sorts of things. I said look, whatever you do, I don't know. On the table was a box on it written rechargable battery.
So after having punched me and kicked me they said now "kom sit hier" (come and sit down), and I sat down and they said put your hands at the back. I did as instructed and they opened my fly ... (PAUSE) ...
I am okay, that's all right. ... and attached it on my penis and they switched it on. Oh, please, look, I don't know where he is. Okay, okay, I will talk, I will talk, and they switched it off and said "praat nou, jong" (come on, talk now, man). I said look, I told you I don't know where he is. The other one, I think it could have been this one who called himself Niemand, he said, "nee, man, dit is 'n ou man, vat dit weg van hom" (no, man, this is an old man, remove it from him), put it on his finger and they placed it on my finger. They switched it on again. I screamed and
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the next thing they said "gaan jy nou praat?" (are you going to talk now) and I said yes, I am prepared to talk and all I can tell you is that I don't know his whereabouts, that's all I can tell you. Beyond that nothing that I can tell you.
Then this Schoeman guy said "nee, man hy is 'n hardegat" (no, man, he is very pig-headed), let's put him under Section 29 and then we can deal with him better. Niemand said "ek dink daai is die beste plan want ..." (that may be a better plan) ... we dealt with his son Dumi and we broke him within two weeks. With him, for his age it will take just a matter of days to break him. So that's how it started.
So I was locked up for the night, I think they placed me under Section 59, I think they called it Section 59, I was placed. (END OF TAPE 5 - SIDE A).
... I complained to him about what they did to me, and the lady wrote all that down. I remember that official document, official book number was page 124 and serial number 455, where that complaint of mine was written. Immediately thereafter one of the police came to this lady and said why did you write it down that complaint, you have no business to write it down, but it was already written. And so I was taken to my cell where I spent the night.
The following day nine pm they came for me and I was taken back to Schoeman's office, where Schoeman asked me are you now prepared to talk. I said Schoeman look, I told you that I don't know his whereabouts and that is just that. He made all kinds of threats and eventually he said look, we are going to release you, but something is going to happen to you; your house might be hand-grenaded or petrol-bombed
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or you might get involved in an accident and nobody will know who is responsible for that. He next said do you have children. I said yes, I have. Who of them is your favourite? I said they are all my favourites. They said okay, anything is going to happen to one of them or to all of them. I said look, I know that you are capable of anything, and so I don't have a problem, there is nothing I can do, if you cant to do a thing I know you can do it. It will not be the first time. I know you did quite a number of things before.
So he went out. After some time he came back but now this time a different person. He was very polite and very cool and started talking very nicely to me. I then asked him you are no longer the lion that I was busy talking to earlier on, now you are a different person, you know and it is nice to talk to a person like you, you know, and it is easy to be co-operative when you talk to a person who talks like this. He said yes, you see, I was brought up by a very good family, but with the type of work I am involved in, I am forced to be what I am, and right now, my superiors are waiting to get results from me, you see, please Mr Padi, help me, tell me where is Dumi. I said I don't know, I told you, if he knew I would be telling you, but incidentally I don't know, and he went out again.
When he came back he said to me Mr Padi, could you come, could you follow me. So I followed him to the next room and there was introduced to a Capt Kritzinger. So Capt Kritzinger was very nice and polite and welcomed me. He said Mr Padi, I am pleased to meet you, you know I am a family man like yourself and showed me the pictures of his children and told me how much he loves his kids and he knows as a
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father I love my kids as well, and he would like to help me and I should be co-operative and tell me the whereabouts of Dumi, because as soon as he has got that he will be in a position, he will see to it that he is charged the following day, within 24 hours. I told him that Capt Kritzinger, I don't know where Dumi is. I told Capt Schoeman I don't know his whereabouts. After some time he said no, look, my men did all they could and I did my best and so I am sorry to tell you that if anything happens you will have nobody else to blame but yourself. I said Capt Kritzinger, look, incidentally I don't know. He said please, if you do get hold of him tell him to contact us or you bring him. I said look, fine I am prepared to the best I can. So he said now I am going to release you, you can go back home and please don't forget contact me as soon as you get hold of Dumi and tell your employers never ever to tell us - your employers and your lawyers, never ever to tell us how to do our work. Meaning that perhap they could have phoned them or something like that, because he was now telling me, because I never spoke to them. So that was it.
So I went back home. Thereafter we had those frequent visits, them looking for him and we kept telling them that we don't know. Up until now the 19th, the 17th, it was a Friday, the 17th of May, they arrived at my house, it was on a Friday morning, roundabout nine o'clock, I was in the bedroom when they came in, holding my son, my eldest son from the back and questioning him about the whereabouts of Dumi. I approached them and said hey, now what's happening. They said oh, you are here, you are the man we are looking for, where is your son. They left the other one, lucky they left him and started asking me the whereabouts of Dumi. I
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told them look, I don't know where Dumi is, and I told you guys and please stop coming here looking for him, because I don't know his whereabouts. And they all walked out and got into their cars.
This other guy who originally introduced himself as Niemand - actually I forgot to make mention of this when I told you about the page number and the serial number. He had signed Daniel Knoester, so it was not Niemand as he had introduced himself to me. The name was Sgt Daniel Knoester. So this Daniel Knoester said look, if you don't bring him, when we get him we are going to kill him. This was now said by this Daniel Knoester and they left.
Two days thereafter on Sunday morning, the 19th of May, I got - there was a knock on my door. I went to open it. A guy came in and told me daddy, I am here to inform you that Dumi was shot and killed at No 17 12A Pierre, this morning in Bearing Street. He was together with a young lady, they are both killed. So I went back to the bedroom, woke my wife up and told her Sis, please don't make a noise, don't cry, get up, get dressed, they did as they said, that they are going to kill, he is killed, and so my wife got up and dressed up and we together - and asked this very young man who came to us, please take us to that place, because we didn't know whereabout in Pierre. So they waited for us and we went to Mrs Ncalo's house, picked her up as well, and I told her the same thing; Mamma Ncalo, don't cry, and please don't make a noise, let's get into the car, let's proceed to Pierre. We got in the car and I related the story to her, what has happened.
We got to Pierre, it was roundabout past six when we got there in the morning. When we got there, the first
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thing we saw was blood on the gate, leading to the room, in which they were shot and killed. So we didn't get into that room, instead got into the main house to meet the owner of the house and he related the story to us, on what happened. The police arrived roundabout 3,30 am. They were in big numbers, quite a number of cars were there and in no time there were knocks and after a few minutes shooting took place. When they tried, they switched on the bedroom lights and were told to switch that off and they switched off, and told not to get out of the house until told when to. So they did as instructed and so at about five o'clock one of the police got into the house, introduced himself to them as a Warrant Officer Havenga. So this Havenga told them that there is a guy in the back room who has been shot and killed by the police, this man was very, very dangerous and the police have been looking for him, so his body is still lying there. Actually he didn't say he is dead then. He said he wanted to phone for an ambulance to come and take him. So he asked him if he could use their phone and he allowed him to use the phone.
So the police came - I mean, the ambulance came. Actually it was not an ambulance, other police came to take the two corpses, and that was done. Thereafter they left. So the owner of the house led us to the, opened the door. As he opened the door it was blood all over. On the bedstead, on the floor, even on the ceiling of that room, to show that things were really happening in a big way. Their bodies were gone already by then.
So all what we could do is I told my wife and Mrs Ncalo, I said now look, it is our duty now to start cleaning this house and then the rest we will do immediately when we
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are through with this. We had to use buckets, you know, to carry out the blood on the floor and on the bed itself. It was terrible. And that's it. The police never had the decency of informing us about their deaths.
After we had cleaned the house we went back home to tell our children and our families about what had happened and that was it.
On Monday, I phoned my legal representative and informed him about this. I waited for the police. They never came to tell us anything, except for what we saw in the Press. I think it was in the Sowetan the following day that Jabulani Nduli was shot and killed together with his girlfriend out at Pierre, 7/12. That was the name that was written. We said no, this should be the person they are talking about. Thereafter, it was on the Press the next day now that Jabulani Padi.
So on Tuesday we proceeded to Kliptown police station and there were told that on arrival, when I introduced myself to them, they said "O, jy is die pa van die terroris" (Oh, you are the father of this terrorist" .. who has been killing people. I said look, I just came to find out about his whereabouts, where is his body and so that I could make the necessary arrangements. Surprisingly, it was my own Black brothers who were asking me all these questions, you know. But there was nothing else I could do, I said no,
please, if you could just give me the information and his whereabouts and where I could get his body. Eventually they gave me the information that his body is somewhere at the Government mortuary, they will take me there to go and identify the body, after I had filled in some forms, which I did. I was then taken to the Johannesburg, ag, to the
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Government mortuary next to Baraghwanath Hospital.
When we got there we were shown the body. His face was in a terrible state. The whole side, you know, was riddled with bullets and even difficult to identify his body. Right down in the hands, this side, bones were broken. You know, he was ... (PAUSE) ...
MS MKHIZE: Maybe Mr Padi ... Please take your time and slow down. I will ask your wife maybe to share a little bit about the circumstances surrounding the death of your son, when you arrived at Pierre what she saw from there, and then we will come back to you again.
MRS PADI: I will speak in Sotho. When we arrived in Pierre with Mrs Ncalo, we met Madi by the gate and blood was flowing. Oh, we saw blood flowing and there were some bones that we came across. We made our way into the house. We spoke to the people in the house. When we got out from the house we went in as my husband has already said. When we got there we found that the bed was soaked in blood. Actually the way they were shooting, it looks like they were pointing their guns directly to the mattress. The headboard it was riddled with holes. The wall behind - you see they were shooting these bullets, they were going through the wall through the headboard. There were holes in the wall, the wall was cracked. The ceiling was full of blood, in the room, the wardrobe down on the floor, because this was winter. The blood was beginning to freeze. The wardrobes were opened. The TV was just shattered.
We started with Mrs Ncalo. My husband had just gone into the big house. I don't remember what he was doing. I was telling Mrs Ncalo let's pray, let's ask for strength from God that we may clean up and be able to tidy up the
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place and the bones of the children, the mess of the children. After praying we started cleaning up. We actually started taking the blood by hand to the bucket, into the bucket. As we were collecting the blood, you could actually tell that this is part of the brain. When you see on the other hand it is a part of a bone, and you could tell that this is the bullet shell. We tried to collect everything. After that we took water to clean up.
We even went to clean up outside, at the Totseto's place. We started from the gate, cleaning up, up to the house, we cleaned up. After that we took the mattress out. We took it out. It was soaked in blood, and the mattress was full of holes. We covered the mattress with paper so that people could not stand and watch and see all the blood. Then we started, that's where we discovered that she was sleeping when they shot them. They were both sleeping and they were shot on the bed.
So we did all that. We collected and tried to clean up everything and it was neat. The walls we cleaned up, because it was also full of blood. After we were done we therefore left and went back home.
My husband remained behind, taking the mattress back into the house. We left the house for our place.
MS MKHIZE: Maybe we should stop right there. I will ask Mrs Ncalo to say her piece to the Commission about Mirriam Ncalo. Tell us exactly who was Mirriam, up to the time where you discovered her at Pierre.
MRS NCALO: It was on a Saturday. I was coming from work. When I arrived at home Nokuzola said to me, she says Sistami, they call me Sistami, I am going to see Dumi. She said when I come from Dumi I am going to see my friend, she
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has got a birthday party in Orlando. I allowed her to go.
On the morning, on a Saturday - sorry, on a Sunday, on the 19th, the phone rang. It was Mrs Padi. She said to me open your gate, we are coming to your place. I was surprised. I thought maybe she is inviting me to church. We were going to church in Orlando.
When I opened the gate I saw a red car in front of the gate. I saw Mr Padi and Mrs Padi and another lady and gentleman. When they got in, Mr Padi told me that Dumi had some visitors, he was not arrested but he was killed. He said I must go and prepare myself. I was very shocked.
We went to Pierre. When we arrived in Pierre I was already told that the children were injured. When I was in Pierre, there was blood on the gate. When we got into the house the owner of the house told us what the boers had done the day before. I have never seen anything like that in my life.
He also told me that there was a boer who was watching us. He didn't even allow us to go out, because this boer was watching us in the house. There was a girl also. We don't even know that girl. We said let's go and see.
We went into the house. The first thing that I saw when we came in, it was Mrs Padi and myself. The first that I saw when we came in was Nokuzola's watch. Nokuzola was working for the ANC offices. It was only two weeks before that they had moved to Shell House. She had this watch on her, with the ANC emblem. I saw this watch. It appeared in that blood. I saw her sandals. I told Mrs Padi that this is Nokuzola's watch, those Nokuzola's shoes.
Mrs Padi said to me let's pray. We closed the door. We stood up because it was full of blood. We started praying. SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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What I was praying for, I was asking for God to give me strength, because I had already seen my child's belongings, and that she was there. We took off our coats. I had strength after that. I was no longer weak.
We started cleaning up. The walls were full of holes, the bed was already destroyed, the mattress. What I found in this blood was Nokuzol's bra, her underwear. It was bent on both sides of the breasts.
We cleaned the blood. There were bones and pieces of flesh. We were collecting this and putting it into a plastic bucket. When Mr Padi went (indistinct) to get the people to help us, we told them not to bring along the women, because they are going to make a noise, rather bring the fathers and come and help. We cleaned up. There were some remnants of brains combined with the blood.
When we were finished, we collected Dumi's goods. We put them in a plastic bag and came back home. The men were left there, trying to finish up the other things.
When I was at home, I went to Mr Padi's place and delivered the clothes to him. We put it to the house. When we were finished they took me home.
When I arrived at home, Shirley, the one who is also Nokuzola's story, I told her that Shirley, Nokuzola was shot by the boers. She started crying. I told her not to cry. She asked me if I was serious. I told her that she has passed away, Nokuzola passed away. We collected the stuff, like she was already dead in the house.
We started telling the people about Nokuzola's death. Mr Padi said to me I must just sit down, he will be the one who will be doing all the ups and down. He said just sit down, I will do everything.
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Mr Padi was the one who went to the mortuary and identifying the corpses.
During the funeral it was also Mr Padi who was helping. I was so confused. Even during the memorial service I couldn't go there, because I was very sick. I stayed in the house. On the day of the funeral the boers were there all over the place, they were even the church.
When we went to Avalon, the helicopter was just moving above us. There were a lot of vans. When we were in Avalon, they were surrounding the Avalon, pointing guns at us. But nothing happened. We managed to bury them.
After that there was this son of mine who was coming from Tanzania who were at home for four months. He was crying, saying how can the boers kill my sister like this, they should have killed me.
After the funeral, on the 1st of June, we went to the funeral. On the 13th of June the other one who was crying, the one who was crying, the brother of Nokuzola, was shot on the 13th, only 10 days after the funeral. He is the one who was shot, but he was not killed by the boers. He was not shot by the boers but he was shot by the other gentlemen fighting in the street.
During Nokuzol's funeral, Bongani is my third born. Nokuzola is my first-born and Shirley and Bongani. When we were burying Bongani the boers they were there again. They were controlling the funeral. We buried Bongani, but on that particular day they did nothing, but they were also there at Avalon, even when they were going home, they were there. They were in front of us. Then Bongani was buried.
In June 1991, it means we buried two children at my home, with a difference of 10 days.
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As the time goes on our ... (END OF TAPE 5 - SIDE B) ...
... at last we ended up with three boers, Mr Havenga who is Mr Havenga. The other one is Johannes Schoeman and the other one is Daniel Knoester. Those were the boers that were together in the court. When they were questioned by the advocate, Knoester said that on the 6th of May he was not aware that there was a girl also, because it was dark. He mistakenly shot the girl.
On the 26th of May the magistrate discharged all of them, because he described the whole thing as self-defence. They even asked is he also referring to Nokuzola. He said both of them, it was self-defence. Yes, he said Dumi was very dangerous, that's why I had to shoot him, and that if Dumi had the chance he could have killed me. The guns that they were using, they brought them, we saw those guns and the bullets. But when they were shooting Nokuzola and Dumi we didn't see those guns, because they said it was a hand-grenade. They said the guns they were using, it was the one if they steal it, if people steal it, people cannot open it, but still they use that particular gun and they steal it. If the car is running and the owner doesn't want to stop, they use that particular gun. The car was destroyed. They used the very same guns for hitting Nokuzola and Dumi.
The other day they were showing photos. I saw Nokuzola being the one who opened the door. But this policeman said when he was asked, he said he kicked the door open. The advocate showed him the photo also that Nokuzola is opening the door. He opened it and stand behind the door. When they were looking at the other photo the bed was full of blood. Meaning he was on the bed when he was shot.
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They did that, they killed the children, but they said my child was a mistake, because it was dark. The magistrate said that Mr J Botha, do you mean that it was self-defence. MS MKHIZE: I would ask, if you have got Nokuzola, it was clear that she was shot, there were bullet wounds on her face. Is there a place where it is shown where she was shot?
MRS NCALO: On her face she was okay, there was nothing on her face, but what I saw on photos, she didn't have hands, both her hands were destroyed.
When I was thinking, I thought maybe she was trying to defend herself, she could see the gun, the bullets coming to her. She didn't have hands, especially fingers.
After the funeral I became very sick. Rev Boraine from the Methodist Church took me to Dr Martin who is in Auckland Park. Dr Martin was the one who was doing post-mortems for both of them in the mortuary. Dr Martin said he is the one who was doing the post-mortems and he was also sick after seeing their bodies in the mortuary.
MS MKHIZE: Thank you, Mamma.
Mr Padi, I would like to come back to you. You have shared with us very difficult experiences. Partly, you confirmed what was shared an experience that was shared by one of the first witnesses this morning, experiences of torture and family harassment. But I will come back to what you said about your son. Maybe before asking the Chair to take over, ask you whether you had specific things in mind which you would like the Commission to do for you, in particular, regarding the circumstances surroundg Itumeleng's death.
MR PADI: My main concern is more about my three kids, particularly Refele, who still has these, what you call it,
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pellet or bird-shot in her body. That if there is something that could be done about that, because the doctor said it cannot be removed at this stage. They seem to be affecting her somehow.
The other thing is that after they were found not guilty and discharged, that they did this in self-defence, we appealed and in the Supreme Court the finding was that they were not happy about the manner in which the magistrate handled the case, and the case was referred back to the magistrate. That was on the 10th of July 1995. But up until this day, we have not heard a thing. We are concerned. We want a follow-up about this.
The other thing is that they claimed that Dumi wanted to hurl a hand-grenade them. But up to today they have never proved that that grenade exploded or not. They were not questioned by the magistrate about the hand-grenade itself. Where is it as evidence that Dumi actually had a hand-grenade?
In the case of Nokuzola, in their defence in court they said - it was not even in their defence. They told Vincent Skosana, who was living next-door to Dumi's room, that Nokuzola attempted to hurl a hand-grenade at them and that hand-grenade caused their deaths, both of her and Dumi and blew her chest open and Dumi's face. That is the cause of their death. That is what they told Vincent Skosana. The evidence that Vincent Skosana gave in court as well. But now what this other guy said, Johannes Knoetser said in court was that when Knoester said hand-grenade, he did not see that hand-grenade, and he was in front of Knoester, he was nearest to Dumi. It was shortly after the first shooting that took place before Dumi died.
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Dumi actually called him and said look, I am injured, please help me. He advised him to go and see if Dumi is really injured, and he had said to Dumi, but you are armed, I cannot. Dumi said I am not armed, I am injured. The man could see himself that Dumi is injured. He tried to approach Dumi. As he went forward, his colleague who was behind him - and they said there were no lights in the room, it was dark, you see. How could they have seen the hand-grenade and particularly, the man behind, that is Knoester, how could he have seen this hand-grenade that Dumi attempted to hurl at Schoeman. And Schoeman, the man who is in front and nearest to Dumi, could not see it, did not see it. He even said look, I was shocked, I jumped out and then Knoester started shooting. He actually finished him off, you see.
So I would like the TRC to look into this and ensure that justice is done. A fair hearing must take place. Because the magistrate never bothered about it, questioning them. Even I myself, I was never called in just to give my side of the story, you see. No, I think, I was never called, you see. That's why I strongly feel that the law must take its course. This must be exposed, to avoid recurrence of things of this nature. So that people must know that even in the future, that if you do things like this, they will haunt you, they will follow you. One day the law will catch up with you and the truth will come out. This is what we want to see happening.
We want to know - and remember I said they told me that if they find him, they are not going to arrest him, they are going to kill him and they did just that. The next they said they did this in self-defence. But then, here it is in self-defence, they knocked at the door. They actually
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knocked on the door. He said okay, the guy who was next-door said, he heard Dumi saying yes, I will open. The door was opened by one of them. It could have been Dumi, it could have been Nokuzola. Why do I say that? Because the door was not forced open, nor was the lock damaged, you see. Which means that it was opened by one of them. The fact that if it was Nokuzola, the time when they shot him and her hands were shattered by the bullets, you see, trying to sort of ward off the fire-arms. That could have been the cause of that, you see.
Well, I can't say exactly what happened, I was not there. But I think the person could have been there and not the hand-grenade as they claimed, you see.
So at least we would like to see what happened to those two, two or three hand-grenades that they claimed they found that these people had. Because they were never shown as evidence in court.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Could I ask fellow Commissioners if they have anything to ask.
MS SOOKA: Mr Padi, I see in your statement that you actually say that you hired your own expert witness, Mr David Joseph Platzow, a forensic expert. What was his opinion after he had actually looked at the room?
MR PADI: He actually felt the way I did and even the attorneys that know that he was shot in bed. It is not a question of self-defence and not only him, including the - we had engaged the services of Dr Martin to examine the bodies, you see. He was equally shocked. We also had the services of a radiologist to X-ray their bodies, Dr - who was this doctor again. I have just forgotten the name. Paul, I have just forgotten the surname, Dr Paul - I have just
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forgotten the surname. They actually looked into this. Those are the people whom we instructed. They were all shocked, that could a human being be killed in this fashion, you see.
That is why we still feel that the TRC should do something about this, and to avoid this happening again. Perhaps in the new Government or even governments to come. We cannot allow this to ever happen again.
I was bitter, I felt that I will never pardon the police. But at the end of the day, what do I get out of it? Because this is our country, we have got to build it together and at the end of the day we need these people and we have got to educate them and we have got to change them from what they used to be in the past. It is part of our duty.
MS SOOKA: For the record, who were you represented by, which firm of attorneys and who acted for you through these proceedings?
MR PADI: Chiddel & Thompson and Hysop and the man representing me is Brendon Barry.
MS SOOKA: Have you ever gone back to Brendon to ask him what sort of happened afterwards?
MR PADI: That I did even this morning, I spoke to him about that and he said it is still quiet up until this day. He has been in touch with the AG and up to now there is absolutely nothing happening, and they are equally concerned. He felt that now it is all the better if the TRC also gets involved in following this matter up.
MS SOOKA: Mr Padi, you are now the mayor of Roodepoort. In your position what sort of recommendations would you make to the Truth Commission to ensure that human rights violations
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don't take place again? Clearly, here the police acted in a way which was unlawful. Do you think that enough is being done to make sure that police is educated as to their behaviour in how they deal with people, even criminals?
MR PADI: I must say that - you will remember that I said that I was very bitter. But now with the changes in the country, and with everything that is done by the Department of Justice, I think quite a lot is done. I am personally involved in trying to appeal to the community to get involved in this community policing forums. So that if we still have such elements within the police force, they be identified. Because it is no use asking, standing back and saying what are the police doing, while we, as the community, do nothing to help address this. Because in some cases these things do happen. We are there, the police are not there. They need us to come forward and help them with the information they require, you see. I think quite a lot is being done, and they are also willing, they are also prepared. They say please come forward and they also agree that we have seen the force, there are such elements, and we have got to help them address this. Together, I know, we can make it work.
MS SOOKA: Thank you, Mr Padi.
CHAIRPERSON: Tom?
MR MANTHATA: Yes, my question is, at the time Dumi died, was he still a member of Rema Church?
MR PADI: No, I think I made it very clear earlier on, that he divorced himself totally from the church.
MR MANTHATA: From the church?
MR PADI: Yes.
MR MANTHATA: Okay. Both Mr and Mrs Padi and Ma'am Mirriam,
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what role or what sympathy and/or what support did you get from the ANC, because if I heard you well, you said that the Dumi was an MK cadre.
MR PADI: Yes, he was an MK cadre and the ANC was fully involved during his burial and they gave every assistance, and even in the case, they actually advised me to get legal representation. We instructed Chiddel & Thompson and Hyslop. They did the paying.
MR MANTHATA: So you sayin you are still having their solid support.
MR PADI: I am still enjoying their full support in this, thank you.
MR MANTHATA: The same applies to Mamma Mirriam Ncalo?
MRS NCALO: Yes, even today they assist me, becuase Nokuzola left two children who were still young. The first-born is nine years now, the second one is five years. So they are assisting them in their education. They are even paying all the fees for their schooling.
MR MANTHATA: Thank you, no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr and Mrs Padi and Mrs Ncalo, I don't myself have any more questions. Being in the Chair is usually now my task to try and comfort you or in thanking you for coming, to try and provide some comfort. I don't think I can, you know, there has been, what you have told us, has been so chilling. You have spoken very quietly, with the calm obviously covering all your emotions, until they come out and there has been so much blood and you have told that story and drawn those pictures so clearly for us. I don't think there are enough words to cover the blood or to match the blood. All I can say is, we appreciate very much your coming. We will do what, everything we can to push this
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process along.
I would appeal to people please to stand as the witnesses return to the witness desk.
Thank you very much for coming.
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