MR LEWIN: This is the final day of hearing in Tembisa this week. You will see from the programmes we have a number of cases today dealing specifically again with fairly recent activities in the 90's, but we are taking some other cases as well. There will be one case of someone who was not able to come earlier this week. We will also be hearing the case of Brian Thobogo Mazebuku during the course of this morning. I would like to welcome everybody who is present. I would also like to emphasise the fact that this is the day of the victims. This is the day of the people who are giving testimony. That is the reason that we are here. That is the reason that we have organised these hearings. So we appeal to everybody else to respect that. This is the day of those people telling their stories on our behalf and particularly on their own behalf and the emphasis is very much on them. The panel today, those who have been here before will begin to recognise the people who are here. On my left is Hlengiwe Mkhize who is a Commissioner and who is the Chairperson of the Committee for Reparation and Rehabilitation within the Commission. On my right is Joyce Seroke who is a committee member of the Human Rights Violations Committee as is myself, Hugh Lewin, also a committee member on that committee.
Mr Ncube we would like to welcome you. I understand that you are accompanied by your lawyer. If you could give us your lawyer's name please.
TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
2 NCUBE
MR NCUBE: It's Octavius Magunda.
MR LEWIN: And before you speak if I could please take the oath.
MR NCUBE: (sworn states)
MR LEWIN: Mr Magunda could I please ask you to take the oath as well.
OCTAVIUS MAGUNDA: (sworn states)
MR LEWIN: We ask in this case Hlengiwe Mkhize please to lead Mr Ncube.
MS MKHIZE: We welcome you Mr Ncube.
MR NCUBE: Thank you.
MS MKHIZE: I will ask you to tell the Commission about your health status and then immediately about the matter that you have told us that happened in '86 and 1990 and thereafter before the Commissioners are able to ask you questions we will ask your attorney to help with any details that you didn't include in your statement.
MR NCUBE: Thank you. I am surviving but not like before. Since this happened in my household my health status is not so well. I am just surviving through God's will. That is what I can say regarding my health status to this Commission.
Truly speaking since 1986 when I was detained till 1989 when I was released on conditions I, since 1984 the police harassed me looking for my son Jackie. Since then till I was detained on the 5th of May in 1986 and released in August 1989 I stayed in detention over that period with many comrades including Jerry Morakela who stays in Hospital View.
I was held under house arrest and released and Borman used to come in and Smith as well and Rutter. I just forget TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
3 NCUBE
the other policemen. Scarface was amongst them as well, and Nkosi as well who is staying at Daveyton at the moment. I never had any rest until I told them that what you are doing is giving me joy because I am your chief. I am even your president because you have guarded me and my family because even nothing is happening to us, we are safe. And therefrom in that very same year when they bombed my house Borman arrived at 2:30 in the early hours of the morning. They used to come at 11:30 and 2:30 and 3:00, three times in one night they would come.
On that night I just cannot remember the date but he told me that it was in October. He told me that they were in a meeting in East Rand with Captain Palas. They got my name that I must be warned that I must be careful because I might be in danger at home. I told him that I know, I am aware that my life is endangered and you are responsible for all that danger. I am only fighting for the struggle, for freedom. We want to lead the same lives that you are leading. We are struggling.
Thereafter I told my wife about this and from that day, I don't remember when in October, my wife slept outside with the children. I was the only one who was sleeping inside the house. I slept alone in the house the whole month of October inside the house. In November I said to my wife maybe this was just a threat, it's not true. Come back inside the house and she did. She was sleeping outside with my neighbours, was Mr Nxumalo at house no.556. They came back.
Time went on and they used to visit us more often to check that I am there. They were asking about Jackie's whereabouts and I told them that you are the ones who know
TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
4 NCUBE
about Jackie's whereabouts. Since he has disappeared, you have killed him. They said no we haven't killed him, maybe he has crossed the borders. On the 14th of November whilst we were sleeping it was 3:40, early hours of the morning, I just heard a bomb blast inside the house. When I came awake the house was on fire and gunshots as well. I didn't know where to start. I was confused. When I went to the bed because I left my wife sitting around with the children watching the TV I was dressed in pyjamas, I had undressed the pyjamas and put them next to the bed. My wife, when she came in, she put on her nightdress as this bomb blasted and the house was burning, we just thought that the house was in flames. It's better because I survived this fire because I was naked. I tried to undress my wife to remove this nightdress and when I tried to take this that is when they hit her with a hand grenade and her arm broke off. Then she was taken to hospital.
I pulled her and put her down on the dining room and I even burnt because of this nightdress because it's made of nylon material, it even burnt me here on my stomach. I left her at the kitchen and went back to the bedroom and my last born daughter was burning. I was crawling on my knees at that time and I dragged the child outside. When I got to the kitchen I didn't know what to do. I stood next to the door and was trying to extinguish the child's head and her hair was on fire. Whilst I was trying to do that that is when they got the opportunity of shooting me here next to my hip. Fortunately this didn't penetrate through to my bones, because should it have done that it would have blasted all my bowels. It penetrated even via my buttocks a very big hole. I was wandering why am I so wet. I realised that my
TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
5 NCUBE
hand penetrated in this hole in my buttocks. There was blood, there was water, I found out it was blood, I thought it was water. It was a confusing situation. My 12 year old grandson shouted to say that I mustn't go outside because there are White men, so don't go outside.
I was confused, almost semi-drunk. I didn't know where to start. Everything got burnt down to the extent that even the grocery cabinet that was in the kitchen was shot at three times and it penetrated through all the furniture. I think that is the bullet that went through me and went straight to the grocery cabinet. It was a confusion.
Thereafter I heard some cars roaring and driving away. At that time I broke my neighbour's windows crying for help because my house was burning down. From there on we were taken by Mr Khumalo who dropped my wife in hospital and my daughter-in-law and her child and my daughter. My daughter-in-law, as they went out of the yard because they started hitting the house from the front, then they went around the back. When my daughter-in-law attempted to go out somebody said that they must shoot her but somebody intervened. They threw a hand grenade and that led to her legs being amputated. My wife stayed for one year and six months in hospital. My wife was suffering from a stroke in hospital and I realised that she was going to die because there in hospital they were just ignoring her, they were not caring much for her they were just putting the food next to her and then they would come back and take the food. I asked a permit from the superintendent of the hospital to go there at six o'clock and to go again at nine o'clock and ten o'clock and again at four o'clock just to make sure that I personally nurse her and feed her because the nurses didn't
TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
6 NCUBE
take care of her anymore in hospital.
Thereafter my wife spent one year and six months in hospital then I requested her custody from the hospital because she stayed two months without saying anything and you are saying she is in a coma let me rather take her home. Maybe should she see the children she will come to her senses and then I'll bring her back again to the hospital. That day I took her from the hospital and to my son-in-law's house no.64.
Borman arrived there in two Caspers and three combi's. They were looking for Jackie but I told them you killed Jackie because since he has disappeared I don't know about his whereabouts. Why are you looking for my son? From there on they took me with my last born daughter who was born in 1969, they took us and brought us here at Rabasotho. They kept us there for some time and then they released me at night. I said how do I travel this time of the night, do you want to kill me as soon as I get to the open field?
They Nkosi must take me with a combi and take me back at home. And then they left my daughter Martha there. And they released her at 7 o'clock. I took the car registration numbers but I don't know where I put them because the house is in turmoil. They have harassed me since then. From 1984 till 1991. They came even at home even when there was no one staying there. There is my wife's gas stove there at the house. They pulled the pipes off the gas stove to destroy everything. Then I asked them why do you destroy my wife's gas stove? Because I will take this stove, trade it in and get a new secondhand. They said you and your son Jackie have hid a firearm inside that gas stove. Then I said you rather arrest me because they were threatening to
TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
7 NCUBE
arrest me. But I told them that I am your chief and we will govern this country, we will be the other ones who will govern this country. The White policemen said they must lock me in. I told them I do not care even if you lock me in. Thereafter I was harassed by the White men all the time, until when we started campaigning for the 1994 elections. That is when they stopped harassing me.
What troubles me much is the clothes and the furniture that was burnt down in the house. I went to the SACC and a gentleman called Joe Diskom came and he took me to a shop and bought me several clothes and they bought me everything, and they bought my wife clothes as well.
Then we went to the Red Cross Society and they sent me blankets that they use for dogs in their houses. They gave me six of those blankets and some stamped mealies and some mealie meal. I only found out that Sanco and Sanco helped me a lot and they, Mabhena, amongst them who helped me in Sanco, they helped me with clothes and food and to see the doctors and my wife. And they helped me with everything. My clothes were burnt down. I had money because I was getting an allowance from SACC. I had R700,00 in my pocket because I had come back to get this guarantee money from SACC and the bank book was burnt down and I couldn't use it even at the bank because it was burnt down. I was left with nothing from my house.
My daughter-in-law, even my grandson, Japie's son is still limping because his muscles are damaged. Even my daughter-in-law cannot walk properly. My wife as well. I want all my clothes in the very same manner that they were. I want everything that was burnt down in my house back, as is. And even this dog Engelbrecht who was harassing us, he
TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
8 NCUBE
came to me and said what are you expecting, what do you think is the cost of the damages of your house? I just kept quiet. He wanted to know how much would you expect for all your goods. I never responded, I just looked at him. He wanted to know did I buy the bed and where. I told him that I have got an outstanding balance to pay off my bed at Joshua Doore in Wynberg. He wrote a letter regarding everything that was burnt down and I must take it to Joshua Doore. I did that. In Joshua Doore they said that I must pay off the outstanding balance of R170,00 and I did that, because I went to the SACC and they gave me the money to pay for the bed. They said they will send another new bed, till today I have spent R1 900 paying for that bedroom suite but till today Joshua Doore hasn't given me anything.
I don't want to mention all the things that were damaged in that house and destroyed. I want them back as they were, otherwise I will never find peace within myself, because whenever I see a White person my heart aches. And I even say that God didn't do good by bringing us together with these White men. But I thought that they were going to be driven to Maputo. I want everything that was damaged inside my house. And my wife's arm and my being shot and everything and my children.
MS MKHIZE: We thank you very much Mr Ncube. Can we please have some silence so that we are able to communicate clearly with Mr Ncube. Mr Ncube we thank you very much. Your story is quite a moving one. I would like to ask you a few questions just to clarify a few things before your lawyer can add on any information. I will ask you to tell us briefly it seems you were harassed from 1984 as you have mentioned. In 1984 were you in any leadership position?
TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
9 NCUBE
MR NCUBE: I was the organiser of the ANC. I am the first one who started Ntombeka Section with my son Jackie.
MS MKHIZE: At that time when you were an organiser were you armed or how did you do your organisation? What were you expected to do?
MR NCUBE: According to the struggle I was to make people aware of the present situation and to ...(tape ends).
MS MKHIZE: For how long were you detained in 1984?
MR NCUBE: They only kept me for a week and released me and then they detained me again in 1986.
MS MKHIZE: When you were detained in 1986 did they torture you or assault you and what were they asking you about?
MR NCUBE: They were asking me as you said that people will govern here what makes you say that? I say that because even you, deep down in your heart, you are the witnesses of the fact that people shall govern. It is something that we established on the 25th of May in Cape Town when we adopted the Freedom Charter. It will never change, we will govern this country whether you like it or not.
MS MKHIZE: Coming to 1985 you say that they detained you again in that year. Other than asking you did they do anything like torturing you?
MR NCUBE: No they never tortured me, they just took me and dropped me at Olifantsfontein and released me again the following morning. And I told them that I am expecting this all the time but the people will govern.
MS MKHIZE: Talking about the period from 1986 to 1989 that's where they detained you for a long time and they released you with conditions, is there anything that they did like torturing?
MR NCUBE: They did, because when I was released I was
TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
10 NCUBE
taken by Smith and Engelbrecht and they took me to a special branch office and they said I must shut my dirty mouth up that tells people that they mustn't pay their rent. Should we find you sitting with more than five people, should we find you in the company of five people we will take you away and your wife will never find you. Should we find you in the company of two or three or in whatever company of more than five we will take you away, to the extent that I only left the house at six o'clock and I should be back at five again. If I wanted to go to town I should telephone the special branch to collect me and take me to town. When I alight from the vehicle I told them that John Vorster is just a young boy compared to me. I am your chief. Even when you are sleeping you just think of me, I am always in your minds.
MS MKHIZE: In brief you have mentioned a few people that were injured, you mentioned Jabi and his wife ...(intervention)
MR NCUBE: .... and their child and David the youngest of my sons, because I've got four sons and the youngest of my sons was born in 1967, David. That is the one they hit him and his finger was picked up by neighbours in the yard on that night.
MS MKHIZE: We thank you very much. Your story is a very painful one. I will ask your lawyer to introduce himself in full and he should explain as to how did he try to help you.
MR MAGUNDA: My name is Octavius Magunda. I am working with Steve Nkosi and Partners at Kempton Park. Just in short I know Mr Ncube as early as 1984, since I was born as well at Tembisa. I guess perhaps one might say we belonged to the same organisation as from that period onwards up to when Mr
TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
11 MAGUNDA
Ncube was detained. I was with Mr Ncube in detention up to that stage, and I knew what the suffering that Mr Ncube was going through. All the stories, the bombing of his house together with some other activists we made it a point to go and visit Mr Ncube from time-to-time with a gentleman like Alilitliyane who is presently the president of Sanco as Mr Ncube has mentioned. And as from 1992 I have always been acting for Mr Ncube in matters that relate to the family. Thank you.
MR LEWIN: Thank you very much Mr Magunda. I will just ask Joyce Seroke if she has any questions. Mr Ncube could I just ask about your son Jackie, how old was he at the time when this happened and why were the police so keen to get at him?
MR NCUBE: He was involved in the struggle, he was an activist and he was the president of the Cosas at school. He disappeared. He was there and I was taking him to my elder brother's house in Winterveld and then I would take him back again to my elder brother in Katlehong. I used to take him around because they were looking for him and they wanted to assault him.
MS SOOKA: Mr Ncube we would like to thank you very much for coming to tell us your story and to give evidence as you have done today. I think that in many ways what you are telling us is the sort of inspiration that has kept alive in some many people's hearts the fact that, yes, the people will govern. And the fact that you have survived despite all the setbacks and the injuries that you have had yourself and to your family, particularly your wife, is an indication of the sort of fortitude and the courage that actually has got us to the position that we are in today. We would like
TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
12 NCUBE
to salute you for that.
We will certainly investigate your queries. We will investigate the people that you mention. We will also see what can be done in terms of your actual claim. The Reparations Committee is not in a position to make actual compensations, it makes recommendations to Parliament at the end of the Commission's life, but what you tell us, your story, and what your losses are will obviously be part of the recommendations that we can make.
We would like to thank you very much for coming and to Mr Magunda as well. Thank you very much.
