CHAIRPERSON: We are now going to call Danile Wilberforce
May. Mr Sandi will lead you.
DANILE WILBERFORCE MAY: (sworn states)
MR SANDI: Mr May, when I look at your statement, your
complaint is in a certain year, in the past years, a certain
gentlemen whom you are going to mention later on, accused
you in Port Elizabeth, that you were a police informer or
sell out. Because of this allegation, by this person, a lot
of things happened to you. Just before we get into that, Mr
May, can we start with some of the important things.
Right now, you are no longer staying in Port ElizabEth,
where are you staying, Mr May?
MR MAY: I am staying in Gauteng.
MR SANDI: Let's make it quick Mr May, and get into details
of what you are going to talk about.
MR MAY: Thank you very much Mr Sandi. I am one of the
people who were in the forefront. The people who formed the
organisation called Zwide Residential Organisation. I was
with Mr Tozamile Botha. The aim of this organisation was to
fight that the then municipality, we mustn't pay for rates.
By that time we didn't know that people are supposed to pay
for water. We formed this organisation.
MR SANDI: What year was that?
MR MAY: That was in 1979.
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MR SANDI: Can you mention again, the name of this
organisation
MR MAY: It was Zwide Residential Association. After this
organisation was formed, we sat down as members of the
executive committee, which among them where people like,
Sipho Grootbom and Tolile Mbepe and others. We took a
decision that the level of this organisation is not big
enough.
MR SANDI: Couldn't you form a bigger organisation than that
on?
MR MAY: There was another organisation for the people of
Fort Tishas called the Fort Organisation, and another one
which was called Gwasakeli for residents. With the leaders
of these organisations, we formed another one which was
called PEPCO. During this time, in Zwide, Mr Botha was
president, and I was his secretary, when we formed this
organisation. In all the meetings that we used to hold,
they used to be big at that time because most of the people
were mostly interested in this matter of rent and water. I
was always in front as a secretary of this organisation and
Tozamile Botha who was a spokesman, this was for Zwide
Residential Association. I was a secretary and Tozamile
Botha was a chairman.
He managed that in this organisation, there was a rent
boycott which was discussed by these. I was for the rent
boycott and Tozamile was against the rent boycott. The rent
boycott was successful because I was always the MC of this
organisation, and I managed. I was a leader of this rent
boycott. The people were not paying rent in Zwide, the
people were not paying for water, they were not paying for
electricity.
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In September, I can't remember the date, whether it was
1979, we formed this PEPCO because we wanted this thing to
take place all over, not only in Zwide, but also in Port
Elizabeth.
After forming PEPCO, since there was fault in Zwide,
and Gwazakeli, we had to create Walmer and New Brighton
townships. During a certain year, I think it was towards
the end of 1980 or the beginning of 1981.
MR SANDI: Excuse me Mr May, without interrupting you, I
want to confirm that we are together with these events. You
are talking the formation of PEPCO. It is you and Mr
Tozamile Botha who were executive members of PEPCO?
MR MAY: Thank you. Because of the fact that there was this
rent boycott, which was taking place only in Zwide, I was no
longer of the Zwide, but I was not in the top executive of
PEPCO, so I remained being the secretary of this other
association. Being a leader of this rent boycott which took
place in 1980.
Towards the end of 1990 and the beginning of 1991,
there was a residents meeting in Walmer, it was very hot.
During that time, PEPCO was popular in the Western Cape.
During this meeting, we also had another meeting for Zwide
residents. I was left being a leader of the Randville Court
in Zwide and I was in charge of that meeting, which was held
in Kaalnets Cinema on that particular evening. During that
particular evening, the executive of Pepcore including
Chume.
MR SANDI: Mr May, can we just talk about this meeting where
you were accused.
MR MAY: I am coming bit by bit. On that particular
meeting, people like Palochimoto, Zamile Botha from Walmer,
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4 D MAY
were arrested by the police. I was in Zwide, in a meeting
there. The following day, I got the information that they
were arrested. After that, as the people who formed this
PEPCO, we took a decision that if they are arrested, we are
still facing this matter of rent boycott, we rather start
campaigning and fund raise. We fund raised in Zwide
Residential Association.
MR SANDI: Excuse me Mr May, I would request that you stick
to the incident that affected you as a person, as a person
who is complaining. While you are still there, I am going
to ask you questions.
In that meeting, where you say Mr Botha accused you,
did he tell you the reason?
MR MAY: No, he didn't explain anything to me, he may have
told the other people.
MR SANDI: Were you present at that meeting?
MR MAY: No, I was not in the first meeting, the one that
was held in front of my house, with his colleague.
MR SANDI: Who was present?
MR MAY: My wife was in the house.
MR SANDI: These two meetings that you are referring to, do
you refer to the meetings that you are inside the house, or
just the meetings that were held in an open place just like
this one?
MR MAY: When he came back from detention, he didn't come
back to the meetings because they were banned. The meeting
that he used to hold were the private meetings. On this
particular night, he had a meeting with Fort workers that's
when they decided to go to my place where they held the
meeting in front of my house and he brought these
accusations.
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MR SANDI: Were you present?
MR MAY: No, my wife was in the house, I came, and it was
towards the end of the meeting.
MR SANDI: Were there other people who came to you and told
you that you are accused by Mr Botha?
MR MAY: When I arrived at this meeting, as it was held at
the front of my house, when I heard that they were talking
about me, and I told them that I was present, I wanted to
know what was happening, but there were people who told me
that Botha is saying this and that about me. I wanted the
meeting to continue, but the meeting was terminated.
MR SANDI: Did you ask Mr Botha what me meant by that?
MR MAY: About in the past 6 to 7 weeks I met him.
MR SANDI: I mean, during the time before he left the
country, did you make any efforts that a person who said all
these things about you in public, you meet that particular
person and asked for an explanation?
MR MAY: During that very same week, I called a meeting,
which was held in Countsnemmar, which was on a Sunday, as I
wanted a full explanation.
MR SANDI: Did you get any explanation, what was the
explanation?
MR MAY: The meeting was adjourned without him coming
forward to explain the accusations, instead he repeated that
I sold him out.
MR SANDI: You continue in your statement saying that Mr
Botha left the country, going to another country. How did
you get that information, did you read that information in
the newspaper, or what?
MR MAY: I was staying in no.32 Mangai Street, and he was
staying directly opposite my house.
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6 D MAY
MR SANDI: You even said in your statement, because of these
accusations, you decided to quit politics, you decided to be
a business man. Is there any specific reason, or any
motivation that lead you to do that?
MR MAY: During that time, the Pepcore was divided into two
groups. It was destroyed, and there were two groups formed,
there is Kosana and Mr Botha. I decided to step down, I was
no longer working as a person who was working in Barclays
Bank then, I discovered that if I was going to concentrate
on politics, I was not going to gain anything. I decided to
work for myself.
MR SANDI: Just before we go to the list of things that
happened to you because of these accusations, I would like
to ask a question. Are your comrades, the very comrades
that you were with in that Pepcore Organisation, did you
tell them the reasons for you to quit.
MR MAY: The majority of the Pepcore, with the majority of
the Pepcore Founders, we stepped in.
MR SANDI: Can we go now to the details, where you say as a
businessman, you started a business as a Paratics man in
1984, and you got married. What incident took place in your
life during the time you were a businessman because of these
accusations in 1980.
MR MAY: The first one that I can talk about, on a certain
day, I was on my way to a business meeting. I went past
Motherwell. My business was in Motherwell, because I was
evicted from my house. I was in front of Mr Klaasie's house
who is a brother of Mr Golo, the owner of the Themba Labanto
Supermarket. He was also a business partner, we were going
to a meeting on that particular day. I went past his house.
MR SANDI: Do you refer to this particular day in 1985,
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7 D MAY
whereby the Themba Labanto Supermarket in Veeplaas, where
you had a business.
MR MAY: Yes, I am referring to that particular day, but my
business was in Motherwell Township, but I went to another
businessman who was in Veeplaas because we were going to the
same meeting.
MR SANDI: Let us talk about that day at Themba Labanto
Supermarket. You say people came in, on that particular
day, people who called themselves comrades, or the people
that you believed were comrades, these people abducted you?
What did they say, did they give you any reasons for this
abduction?
MR MAY: They said that I sold out Mr Botha.
MR SANDI: Do you know these people who were doing this?
MR MAY: If I can go up and down, I can get one of them, but
I don't know, nobody knows who were doing these things, but
it is not very easy to point them, but they were comrades.
MR SANDI: You mentioned two gentlemen in your statement.
You say that they helped you to escape. Can you briefly
tell about how you knew the men?
MR MAY: If the two gentlemen that you are referring to are
Mr Glass and Mr Aplay, I am not sure if you are talking
about them, can you please confirm that?
MR SANDI: Yes, I wanted you to mention those names, thank
you. ...(Tape ends)...
MR MAY: Because we were going to attend a meeting together.
He is the one, that when these comrades abducted me, he
forced that he was not going to be left behind. He followed
with his car, behind my car, the one that was taken by these
comrades. Mr Glass saw where these comrades took me.
MR SANDI: You said that this Mr Glass, is late now, what
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8 D MAY
was the cause of his death, is it because of that conflict?
MR MAY: No, he died in a car accident.
MR SANDI: Before we go further, I want to ask this
question, you say that on this particular day, you survived
the necklace, they were going to necklace you?
MR MAY: Yes, that is correct.
MR SANDI: Was there any evidence that they were going to
necklace you? Did they have a tyre?
MR MAY: The petrol was drained from my car, and they were
even going to use my own spare wheel, and my petrol.
MR SANDI: On the 31 December 1991, you say that among the
businesses that you had, you say that you had a butchery, a
club house?
MR MAY: Yes, that is correct.
MR SANDI: Before we talk about that, I would like to go
back to that second gentleman, who helped you, besides Mr
Aplay. Is that Mr Sitelo Aplay who was head of the Anti
Crime?
MR MAY: Yes, that is correct.
MR SANDI: Yes, we can go on now. You say that in that Club
House on the 31 December, can you briefly tell us what
happened?
MR MAY: On the 31 December, about 7:30 in the evening,
people fought in my tavern.
MR SANDI: Who were fighting?
MR MAY: It was me, and the other comrades who were about 9.
MR SANDI: Is there anything that they said concerning the
accusations of Mr Botha?
MR MAY: There was nothing, there was no accusation which
was connected to Mr Botha, besides the fact that they were
saying that I am rich because of the money from the Boers.
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9 D MAY
Though I was telling them to go home, because I wanted to
close the Tavern.
MR SANDI: Do you say that this attack is connected to this
accusation of Mr Botha?
MR MAY: Yes, that is correct.
MR SANDI: Can you tell us the reason why you reconcile the
two, whereas they said nothing concerning that accusation?
MR MAY: These people were comrades, who abducted me, who
were going to necklace me. It was also the comrades who sat
in my house forcefully. The fact that they said that I was
rich because of the money from the Boers, as a person who
was an informer, who sold Mr Botha, that is the reason why I
connect the two.
MR SANDI: Do you say, on the 1 January 1992, when you went
to your businesses, you were told that there were combis
that are looking for you, the combis that belonged to the
comrades, did they tell you who these comrades were?
MR MAY: No, I was not told. They just said to me that the
comrades were looking for me, the comrades from Motherwell
were looking for me.
MR SANDI: But because you heard that it was a combi that
was looking for you, you decided to go and see a certain
gentleman whom you refer as Mr Mondem Ntanga, who was the
chairman of the Mother Well Civic Organisation. Did you
talk with Mr Ntanga?
MR MAY: Before I could talk to Mr Ntanga, they arrived, the
workers arrived before I could even open the business. When
I opened the business, the comrades came and told me that
they want me in there meeting but they didn't tell me the
reason. I decided to go and meet the chairman of the branch
of the Pepcore of Motherwell, which was Mr Ntanga then. I
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10 D MAY
wanted to know the agenda for that meeting.
MR SANDI: The investigation that Mr Ntanga said he was
going to make concerning this. Was there anything that you
gathered from that?
MR MAY: When I arrived there, before 10:00, I went to him
as a person, who was a chairman because I wanted to know
more about the agenda because he told me that he is not
clear about the agenda, because it is the ASEP, and Azapo.
He is not the one who called the meeting.
MR SANDI: Do you mean that you arrived in the meeting which
had it's own matters that were to be discussed?
MR MAY: Yes, that is correct.
MR SANDI: By the way, you said what happened to your
butchery?
MR MAY: In this meeting, I was requested to wait outside.
They called me at about 11:30. At about 11:30 I was told
that the decision has been taken that I must go and close
down all my businesses in Motherwell and I must leave Mother
Well before 12:00 that day.
MR SANDI: Who took over your butchery, the butcher that you
complained about?
MR MAY: First of all, I closed my butchery because it was
the 1 December 1992. I closed my butchery and everything
was rotten, especially the food. I tried to consult people
telephonically, I was writing to them, I was going to the
people personally for help, but instead of getting a
positive answer from these people, after three of four
months, I discovered that someone has taken over by the name
of Wiseman Kula, who was the co-chairman of that meeting
where he requested that I close my butchery.
MR SANDI: In order for us to reach our conclusion, you said
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11 D MAY
because of this treatment, you left Port Elizabeth, you
decided to go to Gauteng, are you a businessman there also?
MR MAY: No, I am just staying there. I am just sitting.
MR SANDI: Towards our conclusion, Mr May, what are your
wishes, what is your request to the Commission?
MR MAY: My first wish is I want to get a full explanation
and he must also tell the people of Port Elizabeth and
Uitenhage about me and he mustn't say that even when I come,
the people must not look at me and feel jealous, he must
just explain the details of these accusations.
MR SANDI: Among other things, you say you request that the
Commission must investigate about your butchery and your
Club House, the one that you lost under those conditions.
How can you regain them is that correct?
MR MAY: It is not only that, I want you to investigate, but
I want this commission to get my butchery back from the ANC.
I know that you don't have enough money, but ANC has got
some means to bring back my house and by butchery and my
family and to regain my dignity.
MR SANDI: Thank you very much Mr May, we are going to
investigate, we are going to find the truth, you can now go
back to your seat.
