CHAIRPERSON: Mr Chairman the next witness is JAMES ZAMIWONGA KATI.I thereby call upon Mr Kati to take the stand. We know that you were able to give all the details. We know that you have been ill-treated. We cannot keep quite and not acknowledge the contribution which brought about the change which we are experiencing today because you never turned back you went forward and led this struggle and you led and influenced most of the people to stand up against the atrocities. We would like you to give us details, we would like you to also stand up so that you can pledge take the oath.
JAMES ZAMIWONGA KATI: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: I would like to lead you Maya when you are going to give details and give evidence. In short Maya I would like you to give a briefing of who you are, where were you born and how did you get involved in the struggle.
MR KATI: I am Zamiwonga Kati. My christian name is James. I was born in the village of Luheweni at Ngcobo. I was brought up there. I was involved with the struggle in 1949 whilst I was in Cape Town. Should I go on. OK thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Under which organisation were you a member?
MR KATI: I was involved in the organisation named as African National Congress.
CHAIRPERSON: Was it since 1949 and during that time, I know that you have been frequently arrested, when were you first arrested?
MR KATI: I was first arrested in 1952 it was during the Defiance Campaign. I was ill-treated. Our leader was injured and it was Vuseli Meni. His eardrum was ripped out when he was a assaulted by the White men.
CHAIRPERSON: So you were arrested.
MR KATI: Yes, I was arrested and I was sentenced to three months, I was not alone anyway.
CHAIRPERSON: Again I realised that you were arrested again and that you were also tortured. Probably there might be people who might have been involved in torturing you, the policemen that you could name. There are policemen unfortunately I am not going to name them due to the restrictions that prevent the Commissions who cannot - are not allowed and are prohibited to allow us to mention names. But it was in 1962 when we were investigated about our involvement with the MK. We were assaulted for three days, one comrade was injured, his name was Mr Mgabela from East London. His eardrum was ruptured and again his testicle was also ruptured, his was urinating blood.
CHAIRPERSON: According to the details given here and the statement you were arrested again in 1962.
MR KATI: Yes, again in 1962 I was arrested and was sentenced in 1964. It was in January. I was sentenced for two and a half years for Unlawful Organisation.
CHAIRPERSON: In all, how many times were you arrested if you can remember?
MR KATI: In 1965 I was again charged and I was sentenced for three years in Grahamstown, it was three and a half years in Grahamstown. Again I was sentenced at Humansdorp at the Regional Court the same year. It was said I was taken for what the ANC's ideologies and then I was arrested and sentenced for five years.
I went to Robben Island and I think it was for eleven years in all. When I arrived at Robben Island, Mr Ngagel assisted me. He is the person who tried his best for us to get remission. I got a remission for three years and it varied for most of us some of the prisoners were serving twenty two years sentences which were reduced to twelve years. I was supposed to serve more but I was able to serve only eight years after the remission of three years.
When I was released in 1972 I was restricted and was not supposed to leave the Ngobwe area. This order came from the Police, then this banning order was lifted up in 1974 and then during that time I went to Cape Town. During that period I was not arrested but then in 1977 I was arrested whilst still in Cape Town. The reason for the arrest was that I was instigating the youth and recruiting them for training outside the Country.
There were two of us who were accused, Nglosa was one of us and he was originating from Alice. The Police informed us that if we do not reveal what we are doing they are going to kill us or our wives will never get an opportunity to have men called ourselves. Chris Hani's wife had already been assaulted and she miscarried during the process. At the time there was no plane to go to Lesotho some of the gentleman who arrested with Chris Hani's wife were arrested across the borders when they were going to Swaziland. I was then given the reason for my assault as the recruitment of the youth. I was psychologically tortured at the cells. You know they used to show me some pictures of what was happening, I used to see some of my Comrades and we were trying to ask why are you torturing us, the others were put in the straight-jacket, they were screaming due to pain and during the time when you see this or watch this you never get a rest because psychologically you become affected.
You become destabilised mentally and I had a breakdown, but during the breakdown I was able to be taken by the Police and they took me and handcuffed me, they tortured me again, I had cigarette burns, if I can show you at the back here you can see big scars of cigarette burns. This was during the interrogation and I had to give details about how did I join the MK and when did I become a member of the ANC all such details I was expected to give, at times they would even take the match and burn me on my thumb and even the index finger, they would literally burn me with the matches and they would be hitting me at the back I had to be admitted in hospital because there was tortured severally. I went to Somerset hospital and then was admitted for a period if I am not mistaken it was four months, between four and five months, nobody knew where I was, my family never knew my whereabouts, when I was still in hospitalised, I was bedridden, I couldn't stand up, I was sort of quadriplegic but as the time went on I couldn't use my upper body and I used only the lower limbs only.
The family was looking for me and at the end my wife was called in and so that she can help to look for me. Their lawyers who were also assisting Benif Joffe was assisting my wife, they were also supporting her in the search at the end they could trace me and then I was taken to Pollsmoor Prison. When I saw my wife, I didn't know my wife, she was asking who am I, I also asked who you are. She was surprised to see me in the condition in which I was. I was disorientated and I couldn't see my wife at the end she told me who she was, but at the end I also realised that she was really my wife.
I was released, but let me mention that before I was released I learned from Mr Nchovo who was originating from the Border that there times when she used to help me with washing and also shaving me and asked me if I knew if Losa is late. I was still disorientated at the time but I could realise what she was saying. I was informed that he was next to my bed and I was about to be released at the time. This came as a shock to me.
When I was released the policemen who arrested me said to me you must count yourself as very fortunate, count your blessings because you were going to be charged together with Losa, when they said this I was yet aware of the fact that Losa is late. When I was released it was then that I realised that I could also have been counted as one of the deceased. When I get there in the cells again I was taken to the hall where we were all gathered, my colleagues assisted me that I should be transported back here in the Transkei.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you go back to the Transkei?
MR KATI: Yes, I did.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you having any problems?
MR KATI: The minute when I came back I met the late Mr Xobolo we were always together, he took me and tried to see that I get medication and then I recovered gradually. In 1978 we were re-arrested again with Mr Xobolo because we had formed just ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can we know who was arresting you?
MR KATI: It was the Government, the Transkei Government. He said we have revived the youth league the DPP because we saw that we had no other way and we couldn't take for what our ideologies, we wanted to use the platform of the DP and we used it, then we were arrested for formulating this youth league. All the executive members were arrested. I think we were arrested for four to five months and then we were released thereafter. There was no charge laid against us.
CHAIRPERSON: When did you go to Butterworth?
MR KATI: You know in Butterworth I was arrested in 1981, I was then forced to give information about all the members of the Umkonto weSizwe because I was belonging to base one of the guerillas, then I was requested to give information. When I refused I was arrested and was detained at the Butterworth Police Station. There were men like Spocks and so many others called Masimola - we called him Poppie, that was his nickname, Matamela was one of them, he was amongst us. Immediately when I came there, there were policemen who were assaulting other people in the room next door. They were forced to take exercises so that they can admit to have killed the police who were here at Butterworth. They were forced to give false information about themselves, but I was not involved in that group. There were men like Dixon Pongoma the many others, King Peter, the likes and so many of them, you could see that at the back they appeared as if they had burns because of the assault that they had experienced. We had to take water and try to soothe him, he was arrested and was forced to go and direct the police to where I lived.
CHAIRPERSON: When you were there in Butterworth, did you had a visitor from your daughter?
MR KATI: Yes. My daughter Nomashepita came to visit me. When she ...(tape ends) ....were white men. I was taken to the Cambridge Police Station, that is where I was severely tortured. I was put into the boeing I was covered, it was a cover which was put over my head, there will be ice which is put on your head and you will be electrocuted on the feet, this took place for four days and I was released after five days, this happened day in and day out.
I just want to mention that on the first day, they started at four in the afternoon and they did it for the whole night at the end I falsely admitted that I knew where the weapons were. When I agreed and admitted, they took me back to my place, when we reached my place, there were some men also who were also taken along, Dengana and others and they took me to Ngobo, there were other Policemen there. I was always given orders that should I make any false move or try to assault them, they would kill me on the spot. They were expecting to find guerillas accommodated at my place. Then when we reached my place, I said the weapons were under my table. They took the detectors and tried to search and locate all the weapons that I was talking about. They realised that I was giving false information, but I kept on pointing falsely because I was afraid. They went to the vicinity and wanted to dig around so that they can see where they can get the weapons, unfortunately for them, the people in the community refused to provide them with anything to use to dig my house, then on their own they went to town to get some tools and they came back. When they came back, they dug and the holes were deep, still looking for these weapons. When they didn't find anything from my house, we were taken to another spot, again they started to dig again, I went on doing this, it was a wild goose chase. It was a terrible situation because I kept on saying "No keep on digging, you will find something", then we went to a rocky area and I still insisted that we should keep on digging because they are going to find some weapons.
At the end they realised that I was just giving false information, they assaulted me, they took me up the hill, when we reached the top of the hill, they grabbed my testicles and they pressed and crushed my right testicle, when I came down I was in pain, at the end I just gave them information that I was just trying to get some peace. At the end I said to them, "you can kill me if you like".
CHAIRPERSON: Can you get some information when you were taken to the Police Station in Cambridge were there any Police that you knew about, would you like us to get some information about the names of the Police there?
MR KATI: Yes, there are, there were two black policemen. I think there were three, I am mistaken to say there were two, there were three Black policemen. I think the other one is late, but I am certain about the two who are still alive, there were also White policemen, two of them are here in the Transkei. I don't know whether I can name them because I know their names but I am afraid of the Commission.
CHAIRPERSON: OK, lets proceed. In other words you say you were tortured also and ill-treated here in the Transkei?
MR KATI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the Police who did this?
MR KATI: Yes, I know them. I know them very well. They ill-treated me from East London and also in Butterworth. When I was in Butterworth I could see that my daughter was deeply hurt, that is when I said to the Police "please leave my daughter alone, kill me, because I am the person who knows the ANC, don't do this to my daughter", then I was talking to the Policemen who was still looking for the weapons.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean the Police here in the Transkei?
MR KATI: Yes, I mean the Police here in the Transkei. Dengana was one of the Policemen, Tyelala, Madikizela, I have forgotten the other one, but I think the other one was from East London and he is late now.
CHAIRPERSON: OK, you can stop.
MR KATI: I have forgotten his name but I can remember that he was from East London or he is Mr Mgiwa.
CHAIRPERSON: OK. Thank you very much. Where were you when your wife died?
MR KATI: I was still in prison.
CHAIRPERSON: Which prison were you detained?
MR KATI: I was in Iditchwa. When I came back from East London they took me to the Iditchwa Police Station. I was detained there. When I got there, I reported to the Police that I have been assaulted and I described and gave details about my injuries, at the time I was urinating blood. They referred me to the doctor and fortunately as I came on Friday I was fortunate that the following day the doctor was supposed to do his rounds. When I gave a statement to the doctor he said I should be taken to hospital for admission. On Monday when the police came in they took me away from the jail and then they took me to Iditchwa where they detained my daughter.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know those Police who did that to you?
MR KATI: Yes I do.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know their names?
MR KATI: They were young so I don't know much about them, but they received the instructions from Dingana, because they were the people who were responsible for my case.
CHAIRPERSON: How long did you stay in Iditchwa? For how many months did you stay there?
MR KATI: The Policemen came to tell me that my wife is deceased. I was informed that she died when she was in Natal. When I realised that I was going to be arrested by the police, I had met my police, we had met with some of the doctors and Mr Nkogwana and Mgangese and I had requested them that they should be nearer my wife. They took my wife to the hospital in Durban because I had requested and made arrangements that she should be supported by some of the lawyers, the Mkangas and the other people. It was on the 25th and 26th, but I realised it was long before, it was on the 16th September when she died. But I got the information on the 25th. My daughter was still detained also during this period. She was the only person who was released because they said I cannot be released. She was the one who was able to go and make funeral arrangements. A Mr Shabalolo assisted my child because she knew my wife, she assisted her and gave her supportive services for all the arrangements that were supposed to be done for the funeral. The coffin was so beautiful, thanks to the Chamalolos, and the people who supported my daughter. The people tried to come and appeal to the Police and the authorities that I should be released so that I can attend the funeral. The lawyers like Bruce Matikizela tried to assist in appealing for my release. At the end the authorities, Mtanzima were able to release me, I am very sorry if I was not supposed to mention his name, I have already done that. When they agreed for my release, I was taken by the Police to attend the funeral. I was escorted by a hoard of more than 28 police vans. When I came here it was about 10.00 by that time the hearse was not yet present. Reverend Kota was the one already there doing the rights, Mr Ezra Seqela and the Reverend where the people who assisted with the sermon. All the people that I had mentioned before who gave support were also present. I was also informed by the police that I was supposed to be taken to Johannesburg because it was not enough for me to be tortured here in Iditchwa, the best for me would be Johannesburg where I will be severally tortured. It was said there should be an interdict so that I was going to be killed. There was an interdict so that I was supposed not to have gone. There were lawyers, Lawyers Sequela, Wilson who is presently the Judge now. They were taken to South Africa, they were looking for me all the time and nobody knew about my whereabouts. When I came back from the funeral I was taken again back to Iditchwa Police Station.
CHAIRPERSON: How long did you stay there?
MR KATI: I stayed for seven months at Iditchwa in detention. I have never been involved or engaged in exercises for seven months.
CHAIRPERSON: When did you go to Court?
MR KATI: I was taken to Court in 1981, but I was never sentenced. I was sentenced in 1982. I was sentenced for 13 years.
CHAIRPERSON: Where were you detained?
MR KATI: I was detained at Wellington. We were separated, there were others who were at Wellington and the others were at Lebota, but I was brought back to Wellington when the sentence was going to be passed.
CHAIRPERSON: What would you like the Commission to assist you with?
MR KATI: I would appeal to the Commission, although I know that we had already been informed that we cannot both attend with our openings, the Court sessions then I think I should drop that request although it's was I had wished for. But what I am appealing for now is that I am still destabilised health-wise, because the left arm is unable to lift heavy loads, I have to keep it relaxed because I was handcuffed for quite a long time and this affected my arm. The most affected arm is the left arm. I'd really like to get proper medication or specialist so that I can be well protected.
Some of the things that I would like to have is that I should have a tombstone for my wife.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Kati.
MR KATI: I have just a little detail that I would like to state. I like just to mention that King Sabata gave me support and he gave me some money to assist with the funeral arrangements. Thereafter Mr Tshabalolo who is late now, was arrested because he had received that money. Thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kati amongst the names that you have mentioned is Mr Vuseli Menini whom you claim that his ear-drum was ruptured during the assault. Can I just ask a question, where is he now.
MR KATI: Vuseli Menini was our Leader during that period, when we were trying to turn against the White people because they were assaulting our Leader, Vuseli didn't want us to do that because he said it was against the rules and expectations of the organisation to assault anybody. That is when he was injured, he said we must leave him, if the boers want to kill him they should be allowed to do so.
What happened to Vuseli is that when we were together in Grahamstown when we started attending the Court proceedings, we were arrested for conspiracy. I think we would be six comrades. When the indictment was squashed in Rivonia and I was also squashed, it was said we were going to be charged for what we have done. If for instance, you had given instructions to the MK then you were one of the people who were supposed to be arrested. One of the witnesses was injured. Vuseli was taken to Court and his case was presided by the Judge. The others were expected to go to Court for the charges of being involved in the MK. Zanakile, Mkaba, Vuseli and Khingo were the people who were charged as for being the high commanders and they were taken to the Court. When they went there they were sentenced to death. Comrade Wilton Mcguire intervened and he said those people should be released so there was an appeal because Mcguire wanted the people to be released, so Vuseli objected to that and said Mcguire was defying the orders and expectations of the organisation because the slogan was "you should die alone". What we knew was that if the people were sentenced to death they should go there rejoicing to the gallows, all three of them, they went there of their own accord and they willingly went to the gallows saying "die alone, die alone".
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Can I just ask one question. During the period when you have been going to prison, did you have any lawyers to defend you?
MR KATI: No, I didn't have any when I went to the further charge. It was difficult because we unfortunately had to defend ourselves, starting from the period when I had to appear in Grahamstown I was having no lawyer, also in Humansdorp I didn't have a lawyer and both cases I didn't have the lawyer.
CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you have any person to defend you because the organisation which assisted to defend the political prisoners was banned?
MR KATI: Yes, it is so. Because we knew that our court case couldn't do anything about it because we were alone at the time we said they could just be released and we will stand alone. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kati you have shared with us experiences which were aimed at damaging and at confusing, but you have shared with a sense of humour which shows us that you are one of those heroes which have turned a traumatic memory into a victory of some kind. Maybe I can ask you to advise us as a Commission as to what needs to be thought about or to be done to make sure that the experiences you are taking about are not part of our history again, because that is part of our responsibility as a Commission to assist in making sure that some of the acts which we call "Human Rights Violation" are never repeated again in our society.
MR KATI: In my opinion as I am here today, and as we are now can be regarded as liberated, to assist the Commission, I think we should be able to see to it that this should never, never ever be a White person who leads the country. CHAIRPERSON: I think we can just conclude. We thank you very much Mr Kati for what you have given us. It is quite a long time as a Commission that we have been going around listening to all the detainees and the atrocities which were shared and experienced by the people, but what is very strange and amazing is that when we listen to these we are unable to control our emotions, again today the same thing applied. You have presented and put forward to us very painful details which made us to be moved. We would like to thank the Lord for presenting such people who are like you, who we can regard them as heroes. At times the young lions or the youth sometimes forget when they have done issues which cannot be forgotten. We know there were strong men, heroes and people who tried to liberate this country. Some of the mothers and fathers, they kept quite, they were just selfish and self-centred just taking care of their families, but people like you sacrificed for the struggle and freedom. Through the struggle we were liberated, we salute you for what you have done for us, we also salute the late King Sabata for his contribution so that your wife had a dignified funeral, we also salute the community of Ngobo who said they would never assist and support the people who were turning against you and refused to provide them with the tools when they wanted to dig at your place, we salute that community because they have shown solidarity, because they could show that they support you, that was a very brave contribution that they have done, but what has touched me most is that you request that there should be a tombstone in memory of your late wife, I think the Commission will try its utmost best to be able to meet or fulfil your wish. We salute you. Thank you. We know that it is very difficult to always ask for a break, it is very difficult for us to request that we should have a short break for fifteen minutes so that we can have a pause, and then we will meet at quarter past eleven again. Thank you.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
