CASE NO: CT/01409/UPI
VICTIM: ROSALINE DESIREE CLOETE
NATURE OF VIOLENCE: SHOT AND KILLED BY POLICE
TESTIMONY FROM: LENA RIEKERT [mother]
CASE NO: CT/01410/UPI
VICTIM: MICHAEL JULIES
NATURE OF VIOLENCE: SHOT AND KILLED BY POLICE
TESTIMONY FROM: ALISON SIMON [foster mother]
MS BURTON: Ms Riekert and Ms Simon, welcome here this afternoon. I am glad that Ms Riekert you have your husband with you and Ms Simon your son, so that you have family members to ... of the story that we heard before the lunch break, from Mr Thomas and we know that you lost family members on that fateful day in Kakamas. Ms Riekert will you tell us what happened and what you experienced in the loss of your daughter.
MS RIEKERT: On the 13th February 1988 I was on my way to the cafe. My daughter Desiree accompanied me. When we came to the corner of Church Street, on that corner we stood still. We were watching the people and I told Karel we have to go back because there are a lot of people assembled, they look like policeman. I told Karel that we had to go back home. Before we could turn around these people dispersed and as we were trying to turn around and go back home we heard the first shot. And when we heard that shot my child fell down and she just said Mammie and I could just see blood. Karel picked up the child. I ran after her. Fortunately a car from Springbok came there. We stopped the car and this car took us to the hospital. When we came to the hospital the sisters called Doctor Kok. He came there and he administered oxygen and he put up a drip. Doctor Kok saw that she had two bullet wounds in her back and from her, right behind her right-ear right to her forehead where the bullet lodged. Doctor Kok said this child had to be taken to Kimberley hospital. There was another person who had to go to Upington and we got into the ambulance on our way to Kimberley but we could only get to Upington where this other person had to get off. When we got there the nurses saw that this child has already died. They took away the oxygen and the drip and I stayed there at the hospital. They took my child from there. I came back with the ambulance to Kakamas. This is what my story is because I was with my child all the time. There is nothing more I would like to add.
MS BURTON: How old was your daughter, how old was Desiree?
MS RIEKERT: Desiree was four years old.
MS BURTON: ... the person who was shooting at the time?
MS RIEKERT: The person who fired the shot, as I said, Karel my husband's brother was standing between me and my child. He saw who this person was who fired the shot. That was why Karel identified this person later on and I who was this child's mother, did not see who had shot my child. The person who accompanied me, he had seen who shot my child.
MS BURTON: ... there was a court case about this.
MS RIEKERT: There was a court case, letters were distributed. We received letters that we had to go to Kimberley. Karel went to, he is the child's witness, he went to Kimberley, I went to Kimberley, Karel was called into the court and they never asked me to appear in court. I never appeared in court.
MS BURTON: Did anything arise out of the court case, was anybody prosecuted?
MS RIEKERT: Nothing happened after the court case.
MS BURTON: ... are very - frustrating is not the right word but how very difficult it is when you don't have an opportunity to talk even in the court where your own child has been killed and we hope that this gives you the opportunity at least to tell the world about your loss.
MS RIEKERT: Yes this was a very great loss for me because when I lost her she was only four years old. Sometimes when I sleep, sometimes in my dreams I call my husband and I tell him I'm still thinking of Des my daughter, and my husband says be quiet, sleep.
MS BURTON: ... Riekert, I think it would probably be proper for me to ask Ms Simon to speak to us now before we ask questions. Is that right Chairperson?
CHAIRPERSON: I wonder whether, I thought it would be better if ... [indistinct]
MS BURTON: Ask questions first. Okay. Perhaps you could move the microphone in front of Ms Simon. Hallo Ms Simon. You were also nearby when this happened, near to Ms Thomas' house. Will you tell us what happened to your foster son, Michael.
MS SIMON: That Saturday afternoon the 13th February my husband and I were sitting on the stoep. We saw all these vehicles passing our house on the way to the Thomas' house. There were policemen around. There were bloodhounds which they were taken from these vans and these bloodhounds were in their yard. My husband and I went nearer to that house. We slowly approached to see what was happening and then I saw on the corner near the church this policeman was standing there. He had a revolver in his hand and Oupa and Nantes they were having an argument with this man. I walked up till the corner nearby the church where they were having a argument and I approached Nantes and Oupa and the policeman said, just go ahead and then I'm going to shoot you, and I said you must just go one step ahead and I'm going to shoot you. I turned around. I went back to where I had left my husband. This was opposite Sergeant du Plessis' gate. Before I got to my husband he directed me with his eyes backward because I didn't feel, I felt jittery. I didn't look back but somebody touched my shoulder. Before he could touch my shoulder and then suddenly Oupa and Nantes were shot with teargas. He touched my shoulder and he said Granny run, Grandpa run, I'm going to shoot and immediately I started running. As I started running I didn't run right to the front, I ran sideways and I saw he didn't give me any chance and suddenly I fell down in front of Sergeant Matthys' house. I fell flat in the road because this man was shooting. When I got up I crossed the road to my own house. When I got there Michael, little Michael was lying there, he was dead. He was shot dead on the stoep. There he was standing by the gate and I could see the blood there and he just made it to the stoep and he died. It was just a lot of blood. He was lying in a puddle of blood. When I saw Michael I turned back, I crossed the road again and I went back to that man and now he was shooting down in Clare Street and he said, sir, come, come, look, look, that is where my son Michael is lying. You shot him dead. He just looked at me. He just looked in that direction and he kept on shooting. He just walked down the road in the direction of the Thomas' house. I returned home and nobody has been there to see what has happened to Michael and then the hospital at Kakamas called me for somebody to sign the document. I had to sign for a operation for my sister's son. When I came there they were already in the ambulance. This child had to be taken to Upington for a emergency operation because the bullet was lodging in his stomach, his spleen had to be taken out, had to be removed.
MS BURTON: How old was Michael?
MS SIMON: He was 13 years old.
MS BURTON: ... had there been other incidents with the police other incidents with the young people in the area? What had, what was it like in the area for the days and months before this?
MS SIMON: There was nothing I know about, nothing was happening.
MS BURTON: ... suddenly with the incidents around the Thomas's house.
MS SIMON: Yes.
MS BURTON: ... singing.
MS SIMON: No I don't know anything about that. No, I don't know about that at all.
MS BURTON: And afterwards, after the children were killed, did things go quiet in the area after that?
MS SIMON: Yes it was quiet. Ja it was quiet, the police left immediately.
MS BURTON: You mentioned Oupa, I think that's Oupa Beukes and somebody called Nantes. Were they people from the community?
MS SIMON: No they were standing all by themselves. Oupa en Beukes and Nantes, they were standing alone. They were standing by themselves opposite the Thomas' house and they were having a argument with that man.
MS BURTON: You don't know what the argument was about?
MS SIMON: They wanted to go in. They wanted to go into the yard.
MS BURTON: ... a court investigation into Michael's death?
MS SIMON: Yes there was.
MS BURTON: But nothing was done about it.
MS SIMON: Yes, I was taking, to participate in a identification parade, I went to the court in Kimberley, it lasted for a week and a half.
MS BURTON: ... was prosecuted in the end, is that right?
MS SIMON: No, nobody was prosecuted.
MS BURTON: Anything else you want to tell us?
MS SIMON: All that I want to say is, is that we read that they found this man that, not guilty. While in court I was watching this man. How innocently he looked in court. His advocate was asking us all kinds of questions but when they acquitted him I realised he might be found innocent here but in heaven he will be guilty. Michael Julies was a innocent child. He was just standing by the gate, just like a child, he was inquisitive. That's all he did.
MS BURTON: Thank you very much Ms Alison and thank you Ms Riekert for coming to tell us today of the loss of these two children, loss to you and loss to your community. I think it is very brave of you to have come to tell us about this. Thank you very much. I have no more questions Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Denzil Potgieter?
MR POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson. Ms Simon, there is one question which Ms Burton did not understand correctly, I want to ask you again. Oupa Beukes and Nantes, were they living in Kakamas, were they living in that community in Kakamas?
MS SIMON: Yes.
MR POTGIETER: The policeman who was involved in the shooting, who did the actual shooting, he was Sergeant Byneveldt, is that correct?
MS SIMON: Yes.
MR POTGIETER: And he was the one who was charged in the court in Kimberley?
MS SIMON: Yes.
MR POTGIETER: In which court was that, was it at the supreme court or the magistrate's court?
MS SIMON: It was the supreme court because there was also divorce cases being heard there. That was the supreme court.
MR POTGIETER: And you say you testified there in court and afterwards you learned that he was acquitted, nothing happened to him. Can you remember what the court said, what did the judge say, why was he acquitted?
MS SIMON: No I can't remember.
MR POTGIETER: Can you remember the judge's name?
MS SIMON: No I can't.
MR POTGIETER: This Byneveldt, he touched you on your shoulder at a certain stage, he was very near to you. In which, what condition was he? Previously Andrew Thomas said that they asked the police to take a blood sample from those people because they thought they were intoxicated. Did you also see this? Did you see anything strange about his condition?
MS SIMON: I couldn't say that he was drunk because he, but he behaved very strangely. How can a normal person just shoot, see what he has done and keep on shooting. How can a normal person do that?
MR POTGIETER: Go on please.
MS SIMON: That makes one wonder what his condition was. I can't say that for the truth because I don't know whether he was drunk.
MR POTGIETER: From what you have seen his behaviour was not normal at all. The people whom he aimed at, the people he was shooting at, what were they doing? Throwing stones?
MS SIMON: No, they were running away. While they were running away he was shooting at them.
MR POTGIETER: Do I understand you correctly, first of all he went to the house where the people entered and searched the house?
MS SIMON: No he didn't go into the house like the others, he just stood outside the house.
MR POTGIETER: And the first time he started shooting, was he still standing outside that house?
MS SIMON: Yes he was standing near the road, outside the house and then when he was approaching me and he touched my shoulder and then he told me to run. It's not far these two houses and then he started shooting. He was shooting down the street. He was aiming down the street. I fell to the ground then but that was still not enough and then he also went, crossed the road into another road and he aimed down that road and kept on shooting.
MR POTGIETER: Thank you Ms Simon.
CHAIRPERSON: I am speechless at the moment because if you listen to these stories you can't believe that these things really happened, that people were so humiliated and that their lives were so cheap. How can one shoot a four year old little girl just like that and in such a way that Desiree was shot? It seems like a nightmare. It seems like just a story you can read in a story book, it can't be real, it couldn't really have happened. It's perhaps easy for us to say to you we feel with you, we have sympathy with you but what does it help? What happens is that the new government and the parliament have said let us listen to all these stories. Let us afford people the opportunity to tell their stories so that the whole nation, our whole country can learn what happened in our past and so that we can be determined to make sure that these things never ever happen again in our country. We can say on behalf of us all we feel very sorry for you and we pray that God can support you, that God can stay in your hearts and souls and take the pain from there. Nothing can bring your children back but perhaps like the mother said, although this had happened, it was perhaps a contribution to what is happening in our country at present. At the moment we have a new democratic dispensation, we're living in a new country where everyone appreciates what you are, we appreciate what you have gone through and we are thankful that you have come here today to tell your stories. We say thank you again.
