CASE NO: CT/00269
VICTIM: GQIBILE HANS
NATURE OF VIOLENCE: SENTENCED TO DEATH & EXECUTED
TESTIMONY BY: PHATHEKILE HANS [ brother]
DR ORR
Mr Hans can you hear the translation coming threw the earphones?
MR HANS
No.
DR ORR
Can you hear me now?
MR HANS
Ja.
DR ORR
Thank you, Mr Hans would you please stand to take the oath.
PHATHEKILE NORMAN HANS Duly sworn states
DR ORR
Thank you very much, I’d like to say a very worm welcome to you Mr Hans. Thank you for coming here today to tell us about something which happened a long ago, but I’m sure it’s still very fresh in our memory and I’m going to hand you over to Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela who will be facilitating your evidence.
MS GOBODO
I also thank you on behalf of this panel.
Could those people who don’t need their phoned, pass them on to those who need them please. The first two witnesses are Xhosa speaking and all Xhosa speakers please pass your cell phone - headphone on, could you. Thank you. You are not going to need the headphone because you shall be communicating in Xhosa and there’s no need for it, thank you.
You have come now the tell us about your brother, Gqibile, who was hanged in 1967. We would want you to give us a background to all what happened and explain to us what was the cause of his arrest. Was he perhaps an activist, politically, and give us a full picture of his activities which led to his arrest. Gqibile was a POQO activist.
MR HANS
Yes
MS GOBODO
What was his activity in POQO?
MR HANS
He was one of the members of the POQO but quite active.
MS GOBODO
What year - what - in what year was he arrested?
MR HANS
He was arrested in September, on the 28th in September 1961.
MS GOBODO
What were the causes that made him to go to jail?
MR HANS
Those times it was difficult, people would be arrested for just being a member of a political party and people would be detained and would be kept in jail for about a year without going to court and until the person would appear in court after a long time.
MS GOBODO
Now I would like us to emphasize mostly on Gqibile and tell us exactly what was the exact cause for his arrest?
MR HANS
There were many incidence but he was arrested because he seen as a person who indented to over through the Government. They were just taken from home only because they were member of the political parties.
MS GOBODO
So we did hear from Mr Maart - Rev Maart that people who were dying at the time. Now in September when Gqibile was arrested, were there any other people who died in the - as community members?
MR HANS
Yes, there were.
MS GOBODO
Why were the people killed at the time, just before Gqibile was killed?
MR HANS
We heard that people who were killed were the informers and those who were alleged to be informers.
MS GOBODO
So you say those people who were killed were those who are alleged to be informers?
MR HANS
Yes
MS GOBODO
I just want to have a clear picture of what was happening. How were these people killed in 1961?
MR HANS
People were killed anyhow. Some were wrapped in blankets and burnt.
MS GOBODO
So in the location you say people were being burnt as soon as they were suspected that they were informers?
MR HANS
Yes, that was what was happening in Mbekweni.
MS GOBODO
So this POQO organization - how was it active at the time. Where exactly was it very active?
MR HANS
It was active at the place called Emma [indistinct]
MS GOBODO
Now I want to again have a clear picture. I want to know where was Gqibile living at the time?
MR HANS
He was living Langa Bowhja.
MS GOBODO
Did he have any assosiation with some people in Langa Bowhja and Mbekweni?
MR HANS
As - community members were working together struggling for freedom and we used to get some work, but we would be told that this work would no suit you because you happened not to be the right person. And this work would be given to a white person.
MS GOBODO
So when Gqibile was arrested it was during that time?
MR HANS
Yes
MS GOBODO
Now, could you explain what happened after he was arrested?
MR HANS
It went on - they were in jail for quite some time and many things happened. Some people in town was shot and Gqibile was arrested in September and people went in town - they marched to town.
MS GOBODO
Did the people kill any white man during that time?
MR HANS
Several events occurred but we did not witness all those - those were just roomers. I was working at Woollens at the time and I could hear the shooting sounds.
MS GOBODO
Now lets go back to Gqibile once more. You told us that he was arrested because he was a member of the POQO organization. What was the charge that was laid for his arrest?
MR HANS
In Supreme - in the Supreme Court after three years in jail ...[intervention]
MS GOBODO
Just tell us why they were given three years sentence?
MR HANS
In 1961 they were - they were detained for more than a year in jail and sentenced to 3 years imprisonment after which they again appeared in - before the Supreme Court and then sent to Robben Island.
MS GOBODO
Could I again refer to your statement and say you say your brothers trial lasted for two years. Were you going to court.
MR HANS
Not all the time.
MS GOBODO
What were the main issues that were mentioned during the court hearings?
MR HANS
They wanted to know what was their aim for wanting to overthrow the Government and so they were sentenced for that according to particular laws of the time.
MS GOBODO
And I just wanted a clear picture because our investigators could not get the files on these trials. So it would help us it we were to hear from you what were the actual issues that were mentioned there in court.
MR HANS
So he was sentenced and sent to Robben Island for three years and transferred to Victor Verster.
MS GOBODO
Now could you explain to us why was it that after three years he was later transferred to Victor Verster?
MR HANS
Whilst they were in Robben Island one of them - a accused - who had been sentenced was made a state witness and was taken out of jail. And he was taken to some other place and they became suspicious.
MS GOBODO
So instead of them being taken out they were transferred to another jail?
MR HANS
Yes, they were sentenced once more.
MS GOBODO
Was there another court case?
MR HANS
Yes, the other court case - the other allegation was that they wanted to overthrow the Government. That is the reason therefore - why they had to be hanged. And therefore they were either told that they were going to be in jail for life or they were going to be hanged because of their attempt to overthrow the Government. So Gqibile said that was all right referring to the judge that whatever his dogs had said to him he should take and consider and do as they have told him.
MS GOBODO
Do you still remember the name of the presiding judge?
MR HANS
No
MS GOBODO
Which Supreme Court was this - were about?
MR HANS
It was in Cape Town Supreme Court but I don’t remember the name of the judge.
MS GOBODO
In your statement you have referred that this - he sentenced in 1967. What was happening in the previous years from 1963? Do you understand what I’m talking about? So you say in 1966 they were transferred to Victor Verster. Were your parents still alive at the time?
MR HANS
Yes, my mother was still alive and she sustained a stroke from that and she did not enjoy good health.
MS GOBODO
How old was she at the time?
MR HANS
She was quite old.
MS GOBODO
And your father?
MR HANS
No, she died whilst my brother was in jail.
MS GOBODO
How many were you at the time in your family?
MR HANS
There were eleven of us.
MS GOBODO
Were you males or females?
MR HANS
There was seven males and the others were females.
MS GOBODO
Could you explain to us and tell us how you survived and went threw this - your brothers hanging?
MR HANS
My father was suffering from rheumatism and I was this - the sole breadwinner.
MS GOBODO
Are you the eldest?
MR HANS
Yes, I am.
MS GOBODO
How old was Gqibile at the time?
MR HANS
He was born in 1940 so he was about 27 years old at the time. And young as he was he was hanged. He had children all ready.
MS GOBODO
How many children did he have?
MR HANS
He had two children.
MS GOBODO
Were are those children now?
MR HANS
They are now in Lesotho, quite old.
MS GOBODO
Are they independent?
MR HANS
Yes, they are.
MS GOBODO
Do you still communicate with his children?
MR HANS
No, it’s quite a long time that we - we saw these children.
MS GOBODO
Where is their mother?
MR HANS
Their mother got married.
MS GOBODO
It must have been very difficult - also that your mother to got a stoke because she had also gone there to witness her sons death. I thank you therefore, there’s nothing more unless you want to have - you have some additional information.
MR HANS
I would like to know that if a person is a member an organization, is it right for the law to sentence that person to death if he has not killed anyone?
MS GOBODO
I’m going to answer your question by saying that these - this the question that is asked by most people here in South Africa. We all ask whether it was justifiable that this should happen to your brother and we therefore have a duty to investigate whether this was right. It becomes very difficult therefore if it involves someone’s life - someone died because he has all ready died.
But our hope is that if we investigate and find out the senselessness of all these happenings, we all have to make sure that this does not happen again. And it is very important therefore, think, that what can we do to the people and what can the people do as means that our present Government should see to it that history should not repeat itself. We shall be very happy because there are many things that happened which were difficult to us.
People would get a job those days but if one was to get a high salary, that salary would have to be reduced or one would have to be transferred either to Transkei or to Mtanzane - which was a place unknown to the person. Yes, that was one of the pass laws, I must thank you, I’m now going to hand you over to my colleagues.
CHAIRPERSON
Denzil Potgieter?
ADV POTGIETER
Thank you Chairperson, Mr Hans your testimony raises very important questions but it is - I’ll just wait for you to put it on - I say that your testimony - can you hear?
MR HANS
No
ADV POTGIETER
Have you got it on number 3, briefer? Can you hear that - can you hear, okay. Looks like our problem is solved. Is that better Mr Hans?
MR HANS
Ja
ADV POTGIETER
Very good, now I’ll just repeat - I say your testimony raised many important questions but we would need to look into the particular case that was raised. Can I just ask you your brother was he standing trial with some other people, he was not on his own?
MR HANS
He was with others?
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct] many were facing - I’m talking about the second charges, it seems to be treason that they were charged with, I’m talking about that case where they were given the death penalty - can you remember how many they were - how many accused were in that case?
MR HANS
Yes, I can still remember. There were eight of them.
ADV POTGIETER
And do you still remember some of the name?
MR HANS
Ja.
ADV POTGIETER
It’s not necessary to give it now, you can - you can supply it to us, but would you be able to give us some of the name?
MR HANS
Yes, one was Khoboka, Hans, Sikhunla, Fatyela, Jaxha, Mgweba, Makula, Goliliswe Ndamene ...[intervention]
ADV POTGIETER
Were they all from Paarl?
MR HANS
Yes, they were all from Paarl.
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct] accused of, the treason trail, that incident, was it alleged to have happened in Paarl?
MR HANS
Nothing had actually happened here in Paarl but they were alleged to have been in - intending to overthrow the Government, so that’s why they were sentenced.
ADV POTGIETER
The allegation that the decision was taken in Paarl - the decision to try and overthrow the Government was taken in Paarl. Was that the case that was against them?
MR HANS
Yes, it was in the Supreme Court because the judge said their aim was to overthrow he Government. And therefore he gave them option that they were to be hanged or the were to stay in jail for life.
ADV POTGIETER
Were all 8 of them sentenced in the same way, were they all given the death penalty? END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A…
MR HANS
They were just given a few years sentence.
ADV POTGIETER
Just finally the case on which your brother was sentenced to 3 years, which he went to Robben Island for, where was that case heard - was it heard in Paarl or where was it heard?
MR HANS
He was arrested here in Paarl, they fetched him from home.
ADV POTGIETER
And did they say [indistinct] after the three years.
MR HANS
Three years
ADV POTGIETER
In Paarl? And was he with the same persons in that case as well?
MR HANS
Yes, they were all together, there ten of them but two were sentenced to three years and acquitted and they were sent to Pretoria.
ADV POTGIETER
Thank you Mr Hans.
CHAIRPERSON
Pumla Gobodo?
MS GOBODO
Thank you Mr Chairperson, you reminded me of that the names that have been mentioned were mentioned earlier on during our hearings in Worcester by Mr Mkabile who also was once in Robben Island and one of his request was that one - some of those like Fatyela - it should be investigated what happened to them. That was one of his requests, so you also mention his name as one of the people who was with your brother.
CHAIRPERSON
Mr Hans we thank you for coming here today to come a tell us about your pain. Sometimes it becomes very difficult to comfort a person but we are aware that there was great contribution from so many people to put us where we are today. We’re all in the struggle but unfortunately some of the people had to sacrifice their lives. We therefore thank God that he has put us to where we are today - as Pumla has all ready said.
Another intention is that all these bad events and the bad handling of the people of the past legacy, we now say now that we are free this must not happen again. We are going to try to investigate to get answers to the questions that you asked as you - it was said earlier on that there are many people who still want to know how it all happened. We still learn that some people were sentenced to twice for one - for one thing which was out of order because that is what we know that if you appeared before a court and you’re sentenced and you are once more sent back to court, that is something unheard of. We are going to investigate exactly why this was the case.
MR HANS
One other thing I’d like to mention is that he wrote me a letter and mentioned someone who - whom he alleged as an informer but who died. And he said that we should not bear a grudge against that person, because he said that person was responsible for what happened to them and yet he had been one of them. That he said God will answer, but he will not answer immediately, he would answer at His own time. But unfortunately that particular person died in an accident and then he said that we should educate our children so that they should be able to rule this country in a very prosperous way.
MS GOBODO
We thank for all that you have told us, thank you.
