DR BORAINE
The next witness whom we now call to the witness stand
Zandisile Ntsomi and I’d be grateful if he would come forward.
DR ORR
Mr Ntsomi, will you stand to take the oath please?
ZANDISILE NTSOMI Duly sworn states
DR ORR
May I call you Zandisile?
MR NTSOMI
Yes.
DR ORR
We’ve come to know each other over the last few days.
MR NTSOMI
Thank you.
DR ORR
Zandisile I know you were at Nation Bahume’s funeral and I know it must have been difficult for you to listen to that story again.
MR NTSOMI
Yes.
DR ORR
And now you going to tell us your own story. It was around the same time 1985 in Zwelethemba, a time of State of Emergency, curfews - the township being blockaded and intense police activity.
Can you tell us about the events which happened to you starting on that evening 12th October 1985?
MR NTSOMI
I will start by saying what - I would start by stating on what happened on the 12th or I’ll start the day before I was shot.
There was a funeral in the location. It was one of the comrades who was shot and dead, his name was Thomas Segolo. So it was his funeral and it was on Friday. The situation in the location was not stable. There was a tense situation I would explain it that way. The youth was not stable either. More especially in the youth although it involved the whole community. And then on Saturday there were protests among the location because as it was that tension people were not that much happy - there were many things that happened as Mamma Bahume has stated before. Some of the youth were shot dead and some were shot and injured.
So on the 12th of October I was also shot - the year was 1985 - it was a tar road where I was. After the policemen shot me I was in someone else’s yard, I was visiting my friend called Zimphiwe - he was staying there.
After that incident they beat me up, they were kicking me, insulting and assaulting us. They dragged me, pulling me out of this yard taking me into the police van. What I can state that not at that moment I was taken to hospital - I was bleeding heavily - I can’t even mention how the way I was bleeding. They couldn‘t even take the opportunity to take me to hospital, they were taking rounds around the location. Sometimes they decided to stop their van chatting to each other, having that negotiations that I couldn’t understand and take their exact meaning of what they were trying to say.
They used to use the torches to light me. At times they used to point their guns at me, so I don’t know what was behind all this motion. I knew - the only thing I knew that they were the perpetrators, the culprits. They can do anything because they’ve already shot me.
At a long last I thought they were bored - tired that’s my thinking they decided to something because at first I couldn’t understand why they did not take me to hospital. They took me to Eben Donges Hospital. I arrived at the hospital and they put me on a stretcher. As I was laying there on that stretcher I was under police guard. They asked me to wait there for an ambulance. They told me that I would stay there for a long while because the ambulance were not around - hopefully they were busy in the location taking some others who were also shot.
At a long run an ambulance came - I asked for some water from the one of the guards - police guards and this police guard told me he is not allowed to give me water. He was told not to give me anything. After a while or after some time as the ambulance came it took me to Tygerberg Hospital. It was around about in the morning or it was still midnight around ten. Around about 6 o’clock I was taken to Tygerberg Hospital. When we arrived there I was admitted.
I woke up in the morning and a doctor woke me up - the time was around about 6. I had a watch I believe so, it was still on my wrist. I noticed that the time was 6 o’clock in the morning. I was awoken by the doctor and he told me that I was badly injured and he told me that they would try their best as doctors. They will try and examine me up to their utmost best.
They were going to take me to the X-ray first and they did as they say - as they said. I was taken back to the ward again. After a while - it was just a short period this doctor came back again and he told me that guy you are badly injured. And we have noticed that there is nothing we can do about you. The only thing we can do to you is to amputate your leg. So that thing must be done as soon as possible. Can you see the time now and I said yes, and he told me that around 10 this morning your leg must be amputated. So the operation must be through already or else if we can wait up until ten - there is a possibility that you won’t live, you can die. Or else if you can take a risk and tell ourselves that we would try our best and examine your leg and do all our best we can do to your leg, it will affect the whole body of yours and you will get sick.
I had no other option and I was forced and bound to accept the doctors perception. I said if it’s the way you are telling me it’s okay with me, I have no problem - can you please bring me the forms - I will fill in the forms. I filled them and after that I told them that before you can do anything can they do me a favour and phone my family at home because I find out that my parents are not aware of what’s going on.
I gave the doctor the phone number, my neighbours phone number and I told him to try and phone my parents and he did so. So my parents was the time they only get the message that I was in Tygerberg Hospital. They were not aware all this time. They even - they came as soon as they could. They were not allowed to talk to me - they said they were not allowed so it was that situation - because it was time for me to go to the theatre. They were told to come later.
The operation was done to me - my leg was amputated and it was okay - that was Sunday the day was the 13th October 1985. I stayed there the whole - the whole day on Sunday under a drip. And then on Monday, it was about lunch time at the hospital they brought me some food. My face was swollen because the policemen had beaten me, had kicked me, so that was the result of their assault and the way they dragged me from where I was lying in that yard. It was very painful so it was - my swollen was resulted from that.
I tried to walk slowly - I am sorry I tried to eat because I was very hungry I couldn’t eat for the past two days. This policemen forced me to eat because after you finish I am taking you - I can’t remember whether I asked him whether - I asked him a question about where are we going to because I knew that I am going to the police cells. And I had no option so I can’t even remember that I asked him a question.
I try - I forced myself to eat. After I finished my meal a nurse came along and brought me a wheelchair, took me from the bed to the wheelchair - they brought two packets of pills, put them in my pocket. By that time I was wearing - I would say it was a night gown - a hospital night gown and then op top I had some - I had the other thing on top like a gown. There was nothing I had underneath, I had no shoes on, no clothes on. I had no idea what happened to my clothes but when I came into Worcester I heard that they had taken my clothes home.
They drove me out of the hospital - I was on the wheel chair, put me in the police van - I was operated yesterday, remind you. And then the following men [intervention]
DR ORR
[indistinct] get the sequence of events clear in my mind. You had the operation on the Sunday. Your leg was amputated above the knee.
MR NTSOMI
Exactly.
DR ORR
Which is a serious operation and the doctor discharged you the very next day, is that correct? And he discharged you knowing that you were going back to the police cells, not to your home?
MR NTSOMI
Exactly, that’s what happened.
DR ORR
And he discharged you were wearing only the hospital nighty and the dressing gown?
MR NTSOMI
Can you repeat the question?
DR ORR
You were wearing only the hospital nighty and the dressing gown.
MR NTSOMI
Yes.
DR ORR
How do you feel about that doctor?
MR NTSOMI
To me that situation is very unacceptable - I really can’t describe and explain it, it was very painful - seemingly those days the system - the whole system of the country was corrupt - upside down. Because I don’t think a qualified medical doctor could discharge a person from the situation I was knowing that that person is being taken back to the police cells.
What I was thinking of I thought that I would stay there for about six months, I had no idea what happened to a person who has been amputated. I thought I was going to stay there, get proper medication and examination as someone who had an operation. That’s what I thought I was going to get.
I am very painful and heartbroken because I just can’t expressed my feelings of the situation that I was in that time. Because I would say - I would say maybe I am inhuman because I don’t think that was not a professional doctor. I think the professional doctor is the most person who could care for a patient and he is the one who must care for you even from the police torture and all those things. But that one discharged me.
I went to Parow Police Station in Cape Town, that’s where I realised that I will wait for policemen from Worcester. I sat on a bench in the charge office. I sat there for along time - there were people coming in and out and I was taken from there. I was not given crutches to walk. As I was taken from the wheelchair two people gave me support, take me into the van - police van - even while I was getting off in the Parow police station I was given support by two people inside the police station. So that showed me that - that I was careless - which shows that, that was not the right time for me to be discharged from the hospital.
I was taken to the police cells telling me that I was waiting for the police from Worcester to take me back to Worcester. I waited there for a long time. They arrived there around about five. They opened the cell and they woke me up because I was already asleep. They told me that they are taking me and they said I must prepare myself we are on a journey. There were two Coloured policemen - they supported me, taking me to the police van.
This police van - there were two drivers who were wearing the camouflaged uniform. They drove it as fast as they could. The speed was very high - I can’t even explain or describe - they were in such a hurry that they were driving at a very high speed.
I was sitting on this - at the back of the van on those small benches that’s where I was seated - with pains and in that terrible situation and with my leg that was amputated was so swollen - I couldn’t stand even the pain. As they were driving recklessly I was seated on the left side of the van.
I couldn’t tolerate the way they were driving because my leg was painful and the situation - I couldn’t stand because there was also a wind that was blowing inside the van. I could not bear the pain and I told myself - I tried to wave my hand to the police station and they stopped the van. We were - we were just Paarl - it was just a minute we passed Paarl and they stopped the van. They get off, they came to me - they asked me what was my problem.
I tried to plead with them and tell them my situation at the back of this car. I tried to explain the pain I am having and the way they are driving - can’t they assist or help because I saw there was a space there were only two of them in front a third person could fit in there. So I asked them can’t they do me that favour. They looked at each other, they nodded their heads, I think they had a little bit of humanity because they couldn’t resist and they take me into the front seat.
They were supporting me to the front seat of the van. As I was - as I was seated there I was - I felt much comfortable and I had to thank them a lot because I was relieved of the situation I was in at the back of the van, I thanked them a lot time and again and they drove off.
We arrived in Worcester. As we were in the charge office that - the one here in Worcester, I think they even called those who were inexperienced to come and see this fool that was here because there were a lot of policemen by the time we arrived here, even those that were not on duty, they came in.
I was - they could - they had the guts to say anything that they can. They told that this were the fruits of what you are doing in the location. The way you try to put the situation in the location - so they were saying things which one could not accept as a human being - terrible things that I couldn’t even listen at because they were very terrible.
I still remember one of the policeman saying to me you mustn’t worry - your leg will grow again. It was funny to me because I have never seen a leg growing again, seemingly he was very happy of what happened to me. He kept on saying that thing time and again. I accepted it at that moment although it was unacceptable because I can still remember they said it and it’s still in my consciousness.
DR ORR
It must have been very difficult for you after having your leg amputated to still be treated so rudely and humiliatingly by the police. Are you ready to continue - can we go on?
MR NTSOMI
Yes.
DR ORR
Can we go on a bit? You were kept in the jail - the Worcester jail and then released on bail, is that correct? And you appeared in court and what happened as a result of the court case you were charged with public violence, what happened?
MR NTSOMI
I was charged with public violence and related charges which I think they were about 3 - but there was only - they were all under one charge - public violence. I was then acquitted because they found me not guilty.
May I continue from there?
DR ORR
[indistinct] made against the State.
MR NTSOMI
Okay after I was acquitted or else after I was released, I took a decision with my lawyer - I got lawyers - it was David Daniels and Company - they were in Wynberg then. I claimed against the State but that case couldn’t go further - I didn’t succeed, which means I lost.
Then the lawyers made an appeal again. I think they saw there were chances that as I was acquitted from the original police at Worcester and the policemen acted unlawfully and the way I was treated I just can’t accept it - I couldn’t - I can’t understand, I can’t even figure it out how did it happen and I was asked for two - I asked for two times about my claim as I was acquitted from the High Court in Worcester. The first claim and the appeal were dismissed - I think that was all of it.
And then last year what I would like to mention is I got a letter. I would start from 1992. Lawyers called me, they asked me to make an affidavit because that was what the State was asking for. They wanted to be sure what am I doing at that moment - to state my state of income, how do I receive funds and I did that with the help of my lawyers. I was still a student then and I sent the affidavit.
And then last year round about August or September, I am not sure I received a letter from the State Attorney. The State Attorney said the affidavit I made maybe was not but - was not exactly what they wanted but they said again that I must say the same thing that I wrote there and then I did again write down the same thing that I did.
But last year I ignored the letter. It came again, I received it later, the second one this year. I read through it and it was saying the same thing and the lawyers phoned seemingly there were other lawyers now in that place, and they told me to make an affidavit because the State is asking for an affidavit to state my situation and my financial situation.
DR ORR
[indistinct] what you were earning because they wanted you to pay for the legal costs from the case you’d made.
MR NTSOMI
Ja exactly so that was the second letter - the third letter - I received a third letter - it was a registered letter stating that there are legal costs as my claim was dismissed in all costs so I must pay some costs to the State.
And they stated that they estimated about R45,000 out of my own pocket and they also stated that that money can be taxed and now I realised that this was going to be a serious matter. And I tried to get private lawyers because I wanted to have someone - a legal person to help me to do the affidavit. I tried to consult the lawyers - one of them was Ms Williams and I told them the whole situation and she said okay we will make the affidavit but we must open a file so - and I had to pay R200,00, I’ve already paid R100,00 and I paid half of the amount.
I told Ms Williams that on the financial situation I am not prepared to pay anything because this is too much even if it was not that because I am the loser because I lost my leg and then the next thing now the State demands a lot of money from me. I am not prepared to pay it and I don’t have means and I can’t even afford to pay that amount because it is a huge amount for me to pay.
Because I felt that my human rights were violated and then at the end of the day I must pay the State some money. I don’t think it’s fair. So that’s how the situation is.
DR ORR
Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions but I’ll hand back to the Chairperson.
DR BORAINE
Thank you Dr Orr - Ms Burton.
MS BURTON
Thank you Mr Ntsomi, we heard earlier that you had been a witness to the death of Nkosane Bahume, is that right?
MR NTSOMI
Yes, it’s like that.
MS BURTON
You were with him when he was shot?
MR NTSOMI
I was with him.
MS BURTON
Then a while later you were at the funeral of - is that Thomas Kholo who was buried the day that you were shot?
MR NTSOMI
I was at the funeral, I attended the funeral.
MS BURTON
[indistinct] leaders of the young people in Zwelethemba at the time?
MR NTSOMI
I would say so because - I would say I was one of the leaders, because we had the organisation, we that was [indistinct]
MS BURTON
[indistinct] the youth.
MR NTSOMI
Zwelethemba Youth Organisation.
MS BURTON
Yes.
MR NTSOMI
Ja.
MS BURTON
The day that you were shot, were other people injured?
MR NTSOMI
I am trying to think deeply because I am not sure there were some who were injured but people I can remember, there were those who were arrested because I met them at the police cells and they told me that they were arrested during that period. That weekend is the time of their arrest.
MS BURTON
[indistinct] when you were injured and they put you in the van and drove around like you told us for those two hours there was nobody else in the van with you then.
MR NTSOMI
Yes, it’s like that - that’s what exactly happened.
MS BURTON
And then afterwards, once your leg was better and you were still appearing in court and in the subsequent years were you still involved - where you still an activist?
MR NTSOMI
I didn’t stop after they shot me, I continued, I never gave up. I was still involved even after that time. Even the policemen couldn’t even end there - they didn‘t stop harassing me - they were coming to me place time and again, doing their dirty work that they used to do, harassing, assaulting.
I remember in 1992 policeman - I was a student then in Cape Town, they arrived at my home, they broke my shack door, they broke my wardrobe and I couldn’t figure out what they were looking for. This is a recent incident that was 1992. And I was phoned from Cape Town that policemen were assaulting people around the location. They never stopped harassing me.
MS BURTON
[indistinct] where did you get your medical attention after you were released?
MR NTSOMI
I attended the Eben Donges end of Tape 1, Side B … we were not in good terms because we were clashing, the exchange of words I couldn’t like them - I had to respond. So I’ve decided not to go to Eben Donges again. I find a private doctor - tried to get a private doctor, that was Dr Biko then, so he was my medical doctor and he was dressing me. I never attended Eben Donges again because I didn’t like the treatment and their reaction from a situation.
I thought it was known all over, even in hospitals because the attitude was also negative on my side so I’ve decided to be consulted by a private doctor - so the doctor helped me a lot.
MS BURTON
[indistinct] doctor is in Worcester was he?
MR NTSOMI
Yes he was here, but he is no longer here now.
MS BURTON
Thank you.
DR BORAINE
Ms Gobodo.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA
Thank you Chairperson, Zandisile I’ve listened to your whole story, trying to remind and the situation that you were after you were sent to the police station. I also heard about the situation and the pain that was evoked from you. Are there times when you feel the pain is being evoked?
MR NTSOMI
XHOSA - NO TRANSLATION
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA
Can you tell us when you think about those times the most things you still remember.
MR NTSOMI
Firstly, I was a soccer player before I got this accident - I was very much involved in the soccer. I can no longer play soccer again because I have got an artificial leg. That’s one of the situations when I am seeing my team mates or colleagues or youngsters playing soccer, the pain is being evoked. And it is disturbing me a lot because I can’t play soccer anymore.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA
You are not the same person?
MR NTSOMI
No I am not the same person whom I use to be - or I know myself to be.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA
Do you still remember the doctor who attended you in Tygerberg Hospital? The one who let you to the policemen?
MR NTSOMI
No, I am sorry I cannot remember his name - I can’t even lie.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA
The people who shot you, can you still remember them?
MR NTSOMI
Yes, I know the one who shot me because I was with him in Court - one of the policeman, Mr Van der Merwe, he was the one who shot me and he had two witnesses, Constables [indistinct] and Brink. They were three against one which is me, so I know them.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA
Were they the only three who were [intervention]
MR NTSOMI
There was only one who shot me but the other two were witnesses to him against me but the one who shot me was Van der Merwe.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA
Can you still remember what you were doing at that time when they shot you?
MR NTSOMI
Yes, I do remember - it happened in a very short moment - I was from the loo by that time in this yard where I was shot in. And the person who shot me - since the township was dark I couldn’t identify the person but the only thing I can say is that by the time I was from the loo I believe he was just next to the door and by the time I was turning to his direction he was just standing in the corner of the shack I was next to and he shot me.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA
Is the toilet in the backyard?
MR NTSOMI
Yes, it is in the back of this yard next to a shack.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA
When did you realise that it was van der Merwe who shot you?
MR NTSOMI
I knew him at the court while the case was in progress then its where I identified him.
MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA
Yes it was found out that it was him, thank you very much.
DR BORAINE
[indistinct] Potgieter.
ADV POTGIETER
Ntsomi, I just have some difficulty with the court cases. Perhaps just a little bit more detail will be of some assistance to us. The public violence charge, was that heard here in the Worcester - in the Worcester Magistrate’s Court.
MR NTSOMI
I can’t say yes, I can’t even say no, it was - I’ll try to answer your question. During that time it was a very difficult situation when someone did something to you or someone can witness something they were afraid to come forward.
The reason I am saying it that way its because in my situation even the Court - the court proceedings they took it like that the policemen did beat me. There was only one argument that why did the police shoot me. The reason of the shooting, it all depends how bold that person could lay a charge and how did he put the statement and the lawyers who were assisting that person in that court case or that problem. I don’t know whether you are clear with what I am trying to say.
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct] to what I want to hear from you, first of all you won that case, you - you were found not guilty in that case - in the public violence case, is that right?
MR NTSOMI
I was found not guilty - I for one was not guilty in the court.
ADV POTGIETER
When you were charged [indistinct] were you the only accused?
MR NTSOMI
I was alone in my case.
ADV POTGIETER
And did the police give evidence in that case, did they come and tell the Court what happened?
MR NTSOMI
Yes, they did come and give evidence and witness. It was me and my friend while the whole thing was happening there were two of us and three policemen against the two. I also had a witness because I was not alone.
ADV POTGIETER
And [indistinct]
MR NTSOMI
Exactly what happened.
ADV POTGIETER
In which court was it - was it in the Regional Court or was it in the ordinary court?
MR NTSOMI
The Regional Court.
ADV POTGIETER
And can you still remember who the magistrate was that heard the case?
MR NTSOMI
Yes, I do have the records, but there was a Magistrate - there was a famous Magistrate here in Worcester who used to sit in for these political cases in Worcester but I do have the records.
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct] in the regional court in Worcester, you then got the lawyers to make a claim against the State in the Supreme Court in Cape Town?
MR NTSOMI
Yes, it’s like that.
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct - you say that you lost that case.
MR NTSOMI
Yes it’s like that.
ADV POTGIETER
You say that you lost that case after having won that case in Worcester.
MR NTSOMI
Exactly.
ADV POTGIETER
Where you were accused of having committed public violence you lost the claim that you made?
MR NTSOMI
I don’t know whether I am getting your question clear. Ever since I was charged for the public violence and other small cases that were connected to this, I was acquitted under this charge and then my lawyers claim - I lost the claim.
They made an appeal again and I lost the appeal. I don’t know whether I have answered your question clearly.
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct] did the lawyers explain to you why you lost the claim? What did the Court say about the claim, why did you lose that? Or didn’t they explain to you?
MR NTSOMI
The lawyers, what I can remember from the lawyers is that they told me - I don’t know from the Supreme Court what actually happened there but on the appeal case my lawyer said to me there were four judges who presided this case - three of them were against me and there was only one who was on my side so that is why I lost the case.
They were looking at the proceedings of the previous charge or case, so I believe that’s how I lost the case and I accepted it that way.
ADV POTGIETER
The appeal [indistinct] in Bloemfontein?
MR NTSOMI
Yes it was at Bloemfontein.
ADV POTGIETER
Now in Cape Town in the Supreme Court did you speak there, you and your witness - did you give evidence?
MR NTSOMI
Yes, I did give the evidence there.
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct] in Worcester in the Magistrate’s court they also gave evidence there in the Supreme Court in Cape Town?
MR NTSOMI
Van der Merwe was there, the one who shot me and one of them was mentioned - was stated to have passed away so there were two of them from the police side and I was the only one on my side because my lawyer said there is no need for a witness. So I have to stand alone with two of them against me.
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct] as you’ve explained to you are now faced with an account of 45,000 odd rand for the expenses of that claim. Is there - is there anything you feel the Commission would do - must do for you, in connection with the cases or generally.
MR NTSOMI
Yes, I have a couple of things I would like to ask from the Commission. As I have said before, I don’t think and I don’t accept the situation that the proceedings of the case took place. I don’t know whether I have a wrong believe.
I was found not guilty from the Supreme Court, so I can’t see why the court decided to dismiss my claim with all the costs, so I would like the Commission to investigate the matter if it is possible and to open the case and lay a charge again.
And I would like to see and I would like the Commissioners also see that it goes in the right direction and this cost of about R45,000 as if I paying a car or a house bond - I am not prepared to pay that amount.
And I would like the Commission to assist me in that situation too.
What I would also like to ask from the Commission now that I was injured I need some assistance like my artificial leg that I’ve got, I must change it annually. And I am paying a very high cost and it is very expensive because I must go to Tygerberg Hospital from here to Tygerberg and I am - there are fees - I must pay - I paid R218,00 last year so I think that fee won’t stay there, it will increase as time goes on.
At times I had to go to Red Cross, they had a prostheses department where I had to go and fit in the leg and then - I am working here in Worcester but I have to travel all the long way to Cape Town. I come back here, they phoned me again, I had to go back again to Cape Town, fit the leg again. If it is not okay, I have to stay there for some days - maybe I will just make an example.
If I arrive in Cape Town Monday I must stay some days in Cape Town, I must ask for relief at work and stayed in Cape Town fitting the leg up until it’s okay, because it’s a special treatment that I am getting.
I just can’t stand that situation and I can’t even manage to go through that process because at home I am the breadwinner at the moment.
I don’t know whether you will be able to do anything - to do, if you are able, I will ask you to do something for me to solve my problem.
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct]
MR NTSOMI
Okay.
DR BORAINE
Mr Ntsomi, we have listened very carefully to your story. You bear not only on your body but in your mind and spirit the marks of the past. We will certainly look at the requests that you have made. The Commission has not unlimited funding or resources, but what we do have we will make use of in order to assist you in whatever we can.
We thank you very much for coming today, we know it is very hard and we are full of admiration that even though you have gone through such a bad and bitter time, you are now working - you are able to walk, you show great courage and we commend you very much. Thank you very much for coming.
Ladies and gentleman I think this is a good time for the adjournment - we will adjourn.
