DR ORR
Good afternoon Mr Kariem, welcome here - is this your mother with you?
MR KARIEM
Ja.
DR ORR
Welcome to you, thank you for coming here to be with your son today. Ridwaan you have indicated that you will take the affirmation. So can I ask you now to stand.
RIDWAAN KARIEM Affirms to speak the truth
DR ORR
Thank you, I will now hand you over to Ms Mary Burton, who will help you tell your story.
MS BURTON
Good afternoon and thank you again for coming to be with us. Are you going to speak Afrikaans?
MR KARIEM
Afrikaans.
MS BURTON
So maybe you might want to put the earphones on.
MR KARIEM
Ja.
MS BURTON
Yes, we heard this morning about some of the events in the schools in Worcester in 1985 and we would like you to tell us more about it and about your involvement in the activities around the school boycotts and then about your experiences of being detained and assaulted. You were very young at the time about 14 is that right.
MR KARIEM
Yes, that is correct.
MS BURTON
You were at school at Esselen Park?
MR KARIEM
Yes, that is correct, during 1985 on the 20th March I turned 14 and I was in std 6 at the Esselen Park Senior Secondary - Senior High. In August of that year we had a mass meeting during which political activists addressed us. We were all scholars and students who attended the meeting and also other residents from Worcester who attended the meeting. But it was just about the entire community involved in this mass meeting and decisions were taken at the meeting and we as students felt that we had to co-operate with the parents of the children to show that we in Worcester weren’t just sitting still and doing nothing.
We wanted to show solidarity because there was unrest and protest everywhere against the apartheid Government of the day and we were being repressed and we suffered and we felt we had to give expression to our emotions and that’s how we became involved in the school’s boycott.
And the mass meeting took place on the Sunday and on the Monday some of our students decided that all three High Schools would be involved and on the next Tuesday the students from these three schools all gathered together. We were more or less 3,000 students and we then decided in the school hall that we would then march to the Songhe College - it was then situated in Gray Street. This was going to be a peaceful march. We left the school premises and we marched in body to the Songhe College.
Along the way we passed a discotheque. Some of the students then left the march and started hammering on the doors and some of our students then went to speak to these students at the disco and these students then came back to the march.
In Gray Street we saw that the police were already busy patrolling the streets. We moved past the police because we had no reason to get involved with them. We then entered the premises of the college but were stopped but were stopped by the Rector and he told us that we couldn’t see his students and we then asked to speak to the Students Council. We asked for a representative of the Students Council to come and talk to us and two of the Students Council members came out with the Rector and we then had a discussion with them.
There was a police officer - I am not entirely sure of his name, but this officer told us that he would give us the opportunity to leave the premises - the college premises but we had already said previously that we wanted to involve all the students from the Songhe and the schools, we really wanted to involve the Songhe students - we wanted an answer from them.
But the police tried to prevent this and the officer told us by using a megaphone that they weren’t going to give us very much time. We just had to leave the premises and he’d hardly said this and put down his loud hailer when Constable Willis Smit started shooting tear gas and then they fired pellets at us, more tear gas was shot at us and police started using sjamboks and tried to disperse the students, they used birdshot as well. And then about 100 students ran to the cemetery - because the cemetery - this is the Municipal cemetery I am talking about and closest to the college was a white cemetery - where they buried white people.
And we jumped over the fence there and police chased us with their sjamboks and they followed us into the cemetery and in the cemetery a girl stumbled and fell right in front of me and when I tried to help her up we were both whipped with the sjambok - there were two white policemen who were doing this. But I don’t know their names and some of the pupils then turned around and started stoning the police.
And I could say that the reason was that they wanted us to escape from the police. They wanted to give us a chance, so we continued running and I then told the students that we should try and reach our own high school, Esselen Park so we crossed the cemetery and arrived at the Nuwe Hoop Hostel for disabled children and we ran through the premises there as well. And we started moving in the direction of the high school and when we arrived at the school our then school principal, Mr Abrahams, told us that he didn’t want us at the school on the premises.
And when we asked him the reason for this, we told him the police were chasing us and they were already in the vicinity. He told us that this was not our affair, it was not his affair, and we had started the trouble and we then told him we had not started the trouble but some of the police members were already entered the school and they used tear gas again against - fired tear gas at us and myself and one Henry Pekeur - we’d picked up some of these canisters and threw them back at the police.
And then we started moving towards the classrooms at the back of the school - and the police started jumping over the fence and in the front they did the same. Now at the school there was a hostel and the police started moving through the gates - the hostel gates as well to try and pin us down on the school premises so we moved towards the classrooms. And then the school principal announced over the loud hailer that we - he wanted to have nothing to do with us, we had to solve our own problems and we had to leave the school.
We then stormed out of the classroom where we had gathered and the police were outside the school at that stage and they told us that they would give us a chance to move away to disperse and go to our homes. So we then started moving up Buitenkant Street, most of us at that stage lived in Esselen Park and others like myself lived in Rhoodewal Flats. We started moving towards our homes and when we reached Esselen Park Stadium a car approached from Lionel Street and there was a girl, Ursula Hermanus, she was a student, they called her and we told her Ursula don’t go.
And then the police started shooting at us again and using tear gas and we started running again into Lionel Street and they then jumped into their cars and gave chase and this woman ran in the direction of her home and the police were following here and this one policeman, Tekkies van Rensburg, he and three other white policemen chased Ursula. We stopped because we wanted to find out what was happening - we saw how they came out of the house with Ursula and she was crying and they were dragging her out of the house.
Whilst they were dragging her towards the car - well you must realise that our emotions were running so high when we saw Ursula in the hands of the policemen. The police shot at us again - they shot birdshot at us as well and then they put Ursula in the car. Then we all went to our homes via Lionel Street.
That afternoon when I arrived I just put down my books and then I went back to the streets because most of the students were in the streets at that stage and we decided we were just going to protest against the police - we were once again try and involve the students and the schools - we wanted to speak to the principals and tell them that we didn’t want to attend classes - we would go to school but we did not want to have normal classes because we wanted to solve this issue of the police assaults on us.
So we boycotted school for about three weeks and when the police - one morning about 3:30 in the morning arrived at our home, they knocked on the door and my mother opened the door and a white man said to her that - he was Mr Niewoudt and he was looking for me and my mother then took him to my room and he asked me to identify myself and I did and he said I must get dressed to go with him.
When I got to our doors I realised that there was a whole army of policemen present there. We lived on the third floor of the flats and the police were deployed on the steps there and there was - there were plenty of police vehicles from one corner of the flats to the next and there were lots of policemen with rifles and sjamboks etcetera.
And they put me in the van and we then left there and picked up other students along the way at their homes and we then went to the CID offices in Hoogstraat. And when we arrived at the CID offices they told us they picked up eleven students and they put us all in one room and then four policemen entered the room, one was Dicky van Rensburg, Oupa van Loggerenberg, Buck Jones and the other one was Mr Symington.
And they told us that they were investigating cases of public violence against us and we didn’t say anything - we just sat quietly and they then took out a list of names. The one detective Oupa van Loggerenberg told us that when he reads out the names that person must then get up and he started calling out the names and the people got up when they heard their names. And they then moved all the people one by one from this particular office. When he called my name I just remained sitting as I was the last one. And he asked me are you Ridwaan Kariem and I said no, I’m not - I am not Ridwaan Kariem and he said who are you - and I said I don’t know. I can’t say who is who, I don’t know all the people and then he swore at me - he said I mustn’t talk nonsense and that kind of thing and I said - there is nothing I can tell you - I can’t even say who I am because I don’t know what’s going on.
Then Mr van Rensburg got up, came towards me and he said I mustn’t talk a lot of nonsense and slapped me through my face and I just sat there and looked at him. He walked back to his desk and asked me once again whether I was this person and I said - no. He once again got up stood behind me and started kicking me in my ribs and I then fell down on the floor and he then left me and went back to his desk.
After and hour and a half they brought the other students back into the room where I was and they left us there. They then began to read the names again and took the students out one by one. Again, when my name was read I admitted to being Ridwaan Kariem. He then asked me what I expected. And then I said he has to decide what he has to do and then he said that he would let me go and he would see me at a later stage.
I then walked out of the CID office and then I noted that all the students were waiting outside so we left together. I was told by the others that they were also assaulted in the various offices where they were interrogated and I then told them that we must return to our homes.
And the next day when we returned to school we must warn the other students what would happen at the CID offices. We then returned to our homes and the next day we returned to school. The school boycotts continued and a week after my first arrests there were people at my home again who knocked at my door and looked for me.
My mother again brought the police into my room and took me with them. This was on a Friday morning. I was locked up on the Friday morning without any interrogation and that afternoon I was called out, I was asked to give them my name, address, fingerprints and then I was returned to my cell.
Through the course of the Friday evening nothing occurred and then on the Saturday morning a police officer in uniform came to my cell and asked me whom I was and brought me a bag of food sent by my mother. I then asked the policeman what exactly was happening since I had been in the cell since the previous morning and the officer then told me he can’t tell me what was happening since it was the people from the Security Branch who handled the matter and that they are normal officers did not know what was the state of affairs. On the Monday morning we were released again since there had been a whole handful of us who had been arrested and there were no court appearances or anything. I returned to school and things were calm for about two weeks.
Then one morning there was a knock at the door again and it was the same police officers. My mother then asked them what exactly was happening since they were visiting me at home all the time and taking me away and then I simply come back without anything happening. They then said to my mother that they would charge me for public violence so my mother told me to go with them again which I did.
That Friday morning they took my name again - they had a list of incidences where violence occurred, where stones were thrown, where company vehicles were overturned in the streets and I then told them I don’t have any knowledge of these events, I was not involved with any of these events. One of these officers then said that they had a video camera on which they made recordings and that it would be very clear that I was involved in these events.
They then told me to simply co-operate with them and I said I did not know what was going on. So they then told me it was simply my problem and then I was locked up again.
On that Monday morning I appeared in court and then heard for the first time that the charge was public violence but I was not asked to plead. I was then released on bail of R500,00 returned to school again.
Three weeks after the third arrest, again on a Friday morning on the 1st November I was collected at my home along with other students in the flats. In the charge office of the South African Police I saw that yet again a whole number of students were arrested and we were then placed in a garage where Mr van Rensburg, Mr van Loggerenberg, Mr Symington and one further detective, a Mr Herbert said that they would take photographs of us.
They wrote our names on little boards which they hung around our necks they then called us out - they wrote our names on these placards and took photographs of us. They did a lot of writing that morning and then I was called after the photo session I asked Mr van Loggerenberg what all the notes that they take and then he told me that they want to know to which schools we go - what we do at school - how we are involved in the violence on the streets and then I said to him I simply could not tell them anything.
And then he threatened me saying that I would see what the consequences would be. We were then released that afternoon and just before two - or just before two - we were taken out of the garage and put in one of the larger police vans. We were told to get into the vehicle and as we drove on we saw that we were taken out of Worcester and were taken through the du Toit’s Kloof Pass, we were becoming quite concerned asking ourselves exactly what was going on and where they could be taking us.
MS BURTON
[indistinct] being taken in the van - all of you were schoolchildren?
MR KARIEM
We schoolchildren then began to panic - we were all schoolchildren but the age of the other schoolchildren I couldn’t tell you because only at a later stage I found that I was the youngest person among them.
While we were in the pass we began to kick and carry on in the back of the vehicle, we were trying to overturn the vehicle so that we could ask the police where they were taking us but we didn’t manage anything and they just continued with us. We eventually arrived at a building in Paarl which was the Sasko Building. There the police left the vehicle, entered the building, returned with papers and documents in files - then they got back into the vehicle and drove off.
We then went down a very quiet road and soon we were at a prison which we entered. The police van turned so that it parked with the front of the vehicle to the gate and the back of the vehicle was drawn towards the entrance. We walked down a corridor and here we found officers in brown clothes which made it clear to us that we were in a prison.
The police brought the files in with us, we were in a reception area. One of the prison officials whose name I cannot remember at this moment, a white officer, came out and asked us whether we were the rascals? We weren’t able to tell them we just told them to ask the police what was going on. They then took our particulars.
There were eleven of us from Worcester on that Friday. There were other people also who at that moment came into the Victor Verster Prison but the eleven of us from Worcester were taken to a particular section where we were locked up in single cells. We were in these cells for fourteen days in solitary confinement and then put in community cells after this span of time.
We were in the community cells with adults and there were both so-called Coloured and black people in these community cells. After a week in the community cells Mr Symington and Mr Herbert came to the prison and called me. A prison warden Sergeant Lottering, took us to a room where they interrogated me, trying to determine what happened on the schools politically speaking and what happened outside with the school organisation. And I had told them that I simply did not know anything in this regard.
After fourteen days some of the school children were released. Of those who were taken in with me on the Friday morning I was the only one who was retained in prison, there were four others from Breede River and some more from another school who were then released after fourteen days.
Eventually it was only myself and the students from Breede River who were taken in on that particular Friday who were retained in prison. I was then told that the people who were locked up with gave them information that these people told the investigating officers, Mr Symington and Herbert that I had to tell them what happened since I knew more about the events.
And then I claimed that these were exactly the people who knew what had happened and that I was not the correct person to ask questions. They then said that if I didn’t want to say anything they would leave me in prison and so I was left there in the cells. While in the cells, there were also other comrades with us from Zwelethemba. When I came out of the single cell I was crying a lot. I would sit on my own and shiver and I would long home to my family - long for my family. I wished that I could be outside amongst other people.
They asked me what was wrong and then I said to them I am not used to these circumstances. They then asked me my age and I explained everything to them. And then they said I mustn’t worry they would make a plan. A day later they came back with Mr Dullah Omar who was still locked up with us at that time. He was in the three person cells and they gained permission from Colonel Witbooi that Mr Omar could come around with them to the community cells. So he came through to the community cells, they brought him to me, he then asked me what my situation was and I explained to him what the whole political school politics issue was in Rhoodewal - how the police were carrying on and then he said that I should not worry and that he would contact my parents through his various people and I left the matter in Mr Omar’s hands.
Another friend of mine, not a personal friend, but someone I met in prison, Mr Anwar Ismail from Cape Town who lives in Wynberg, I met Mr Ismail him and he comforted me and told me not to worry and that when he was out of prison he would contact my family in Worcester and he would bring my mother to Cape Town and he would work with her to have me released from prison.
He was then released before I was and as I subsequently heard, he then came and fetched my mother in Worcester, he took my mother to attorneys in Cape Town and the attorneys told my mother to return to Worcester and to come and speak to Mr Niewoudt to find out exactly what the situation was. My mother then approached the people from the Security Branch but they told my mother they didn’t know anything about me, they didn’t know who I was and they could explain nothing.
My mother then decided that she would not leave the matter there and she returned to Cape Town. Those people referred my mother to the media. On the 10th December I was brought to Worcester Court under the charge of public violence. The case was withdrawn against me on that day, the 10th December and I thought that I might return home.
I was then told that I would be returned to the police cells and whilst there my mother came to me. I was very happy to see her because I thought that I would be able to go home since they allowed her into the cells. But my mother then told me that the police refused to release me, that they had told her that they didn’t know where I was, that it would not take long before I would be back with her.
I then told my mother that I was glad what they were doing for me and she was then taken away again. In the food that was brought me I received a letter from my mother which comforted me and again said I should not worry and that she was working with attorneys from Cape Town to have me released.
I was then returned to Victor Verster. Arriving at Victor Verster Prison I was shown a Cape Times by one of their comrades in which there was an article mentioning my detention with a photograph of my mother and Mr Ishmail. After a further fourteen days - this is after the 10th of December - on the 24th December, my name was called along with two other black comrades. We went to Colonel Witbooi who told us that there were people for us outside. He did not tell us that we were being released by the prison he just said that there were people waiting outside.
Myself and the two youths were too scared to leave, so we told him that these people took us from our homes and they brought us there, and now you just telling us that people are waiting for us outside, people we don’t know. He then told us not to worry and that we just had to go outside. There I found my mother and Mr Ismail and his wife.
They then asked me about these two black comrades where they come from and then I said they also live in Zwelethemba - we got into the car and whilst driving into Worcester we spoke about these matters - myself and these two others and along with my mother we found that they were also youths and that only the three of us had been locked up in Victor Verster until we were released.
When I came home the students who were still in school had already written exams - I was not able to write the exams - I was concerned about how I would go back to school, how I would be accepted since I didn’t write the exams since there was only one exam in 1985. I was then not able to go to school as it was the school holidays. In January of 1986 when the schools reopened I went back to school.
And Mr Abrahams the principal then told me that I could do the re-write with the other children since there was a re-examination and I would be allowed to write that. We then wrote all those exams in the church hall and I passed - I was then able to enter std 7.
In 1986 roughly in June we had another school boycott in Worcester. I was involved again in the school boycotts. The principal of our school, Mr Abrahams then told me I caused problems at school and that he would refer me to the school committee. I then had to drive with Mr Abrahams in his Mercedes which he still owned at that time. He then drove with me and fought with me in the car - there were three of us in the car.
He said to me that I was the troublemaker at school. I then asked him how he could say that since there senior school pupils also involved in the school boycotts but then he told me he had nothing to do with the senior pupils, that it was who had now entered school who were going on like this. Mr Abrahams then took me to one of the school committee members Mr Weir and when we came to Mr Weir’s business he said that this was the person who was causing all the problems. Mr Weir then spoke to me and said they did not want pupils like this in the school, that we would have to be thrown out of school.
We did not say anything ourselves but Mr Abrahams made us get back into his car which we did and we returned to the school. We did not talk along the way but he then said that we had had a warning and that we would be thrown out of the school. We then called other children of the school around and explained the situation to them and we all decided in the school that we would have another class boycott.
That we would not continue with the normal classes and that we would involve the other schools and that we would explain to them what was going on in our school.
MS BURTON
[indistinct] Kariem you are giving us a very full picture of the build-up of the boycotts and its very interesting to hear, your memory is so vivid at time but if you could just try and pull it to your experiences, your actual assaults and the things that happened to you whilst you were detained. You told us that you were detained for several periods in ‘85 and I think you were assaulted in ‘86 can you just give us those details.
MR KARIEM
During 1985 I was arrested on a Tuesday morning
MS BURTON
[indistinct] we understand about 1985, just about 1986.
MR KARIEM
Whilst we were boycotting our classes in 1986 in June the police came to my home, to fetch me again and I went away with them. We went to the CID offices. When they got there they put us in a room again and there was a big black man who was a policeman, I don’t know whether he was a constable or whether he had a higher rank, but this man - we later learned came from the Transvaal and this Mr van Rensburg and Mr van Loggerenberg told us that they could not get anything out of us and that they were going to pass us on to this black man and he would get the necessary information out of us and then they made us sit down on the floor and they told us that we had to do exercises, that it was cold.
And I just looked at them - we just looked at each other and we didn’t say anything and they called out our names from this list as before and as they called out our names and the various guys got up one by one and this guy got up and introduced himself to us as Mr D.
And he said to the first student who got up yes you may start, do frog jumps and the second student’s name was called out and he told him you must also do frog jumps and so he continued calling the names and everybody had to do these exercises and when he called my name I didn’t get up. And he asked me what was going on and Mr van Rensburg asked me what was going on, I didn’t answer and then this black man came to me and kicked me in my side. He continued walking and just looked at me and whilst the others were doing exercises Mr van Rensburg told me that I must start co-operating. I had to also do exercises - I gave them my name - they said if I gave them my name and surname and address I wouldn’t have any further problems. And I thought I was not going to do all these unnecessary exercises, there was no reason for it, why should I heed their requests, I hadn’t done anything. So I just remained sitting on the floor. Mr van Loggerenberg then asked me whether I thought I was being clever and I said no.
He repeated the question and I said I am not clever but I am a scholar I do go to school. And this Mr D once again kicked me in the ribs - he then told the other students to stop doing exercises - they had to stand up straight. He then came to me and hit me in my face, he was using his fist and then hit me in the ribs. He walked around me and kicked my feet out from under me and I remained lying on the floor. They then told the others to sit and they told me to sit up straight which I did.
They then called me into an office and that’s where I met Mr Stony Steenkamp who is the Detective Sergeant and he told me that he was investigating my case - I said what case is this and he said this was for furthering the aims of the ANC. I said but how could he bring this kind of charge against me and he mentioned a certain denim jacket and schoolbooks of mine and he said I had made certain notes about the Freedom Charter. I had made sketches in my school books of the ANC colours and I had also written verses and poem on these colours and there were also certain badges of Steve Biko and a necklace with ANC beads and so on. And he said that as a result of all these things which he found in my possession they were now charging me with furthering the aims of the ANC.
I then gave them my name and they took fingerprints and they locked me up in the court cells. Whilst I was in the court cells other students were also being locked up and then the police came and took us to the cells and took us to Worcester prison and then I was confused because I thought - they told me they were charging me but now they are not taking me to court but to a prison.
But I didn’t worry about it and then I asked Ferdie Fourie a colleague - a comrade - I asked him what - what should I do because they were charging me with furthering the aims of the ANC, but they weren’t taking us to court. And Ferdie said that there was nothing we could do we just had to wait until people came to visit us and then he would explain what was going on.
I was in Worcester Prison for two weeks and we were then taken to Victor Verster. There I was detained for two weeks and then a Mr Heunis came to see me there on a Monday. The prison authorities released me into Mr Heunis’ care and I then travelled back home to Worcester but along the way that he wasn’t going to take me back to the court cells he was going to take me straight to my parents home. He would leave me there and I had to come back on Monday to the Magistrate’s offices, the Magistrate’s courts, because I had to appear in court.
And on that evening around about seven o’clock Mr Heunis dropped me off at the flats and I went to my mother’s flat and I told her what had happened and that I had to go to court in the morning. My mother said all right and in the morning we went to court. When we arrived at the court we were told that the case had been withdrawn and then we left.
I went back to school then and I saw things were quite normal. I thought I would return to school as classes were normal and would not continue with the school’s boycott and then I went back to school and so the year continued. We wrote exams in June, September exams and the final exams and the results of our final exams came and we were then notified that we had to apply for re-admission to the school.
And I signed my form saying that I was re-applying for admission to the school and at the principal’s office there was a post-box where we had to post our envelopes and that’s what I did. In 1986 the schools reopened and I went back to school, I thought I was going to be re-admitted. When I arrived there we stood around chatting and names were called out and a group of us whose names weren’t called out asked Mr Abrahams - he then said that those whose names were called out were being re-admitted to the schools and we said we had also re-applied why were our names not called out and he said no he had not received our application forms. And that there were no more forms for us to apply and we could forget about coming back to school. And that’s why I left school and we applied for admission at Worcester Secondary, we tried Breë Rivier - could not get in and then we just left the schools.
From 1987 onwards I decided that I would not become actively involved in any boycotts anymore I just realised that as a result of what we were trying to do for our people, we were suffering very badly and our education was being disrupted and that’s why I decided it was the end of taking part in boycotts for me.
In 1990 there was a rent boycott in Worcester and end of Tape 3, Side A … in 1990 we were already living in our own home. We’d moved away from the flats and the organisation which my mother had joined had called a rent boycott in Worcester and - because we didn’t pay rent, my mother decided she would boycott electricity fees to show solidarity with her other colleagues so that’s what she did she boycotted electricity payments.
Then there was a Mr Killian a sheriff in Worcester, he would bring summonses to the homes and pin them to the door or if he found that the doors were closed he would simply force the doors open and he would then enter the home and attach the summons to the furniture or he would just confiscate people’s furniture and that’s when I realised that there was once again something afoot in Worcester, the boere were just doing as they pleased with our people and because my mother by this stage was also active in the struggle, I tried to assist her because she had always assisted me in the time that I was in trouble.
So one morning when this Mr Killian just burst into our home I asked him what he was doing in our house? And he said he enters wherever he pleases. And then I said to him I am very sorry but if you want to come in here you will have to bring a warrant, bring the police. And he said well there are policemen outside and I said where are they and they were standing outside, he called them in. He told the police that the people did not want him to enter the home. He said he was bringing a summons for my mother. And I said well, he couldn’t see her and he had to wait to see her personally.
So a bit of a quarrel then ensued between myself and Mr Killian and the police and they told me that if I didn’t stop giving them problems they would start shooting in the house. And I said well do as you please and whilst we were having this altercation my mother arrived home and she then also confronted them asking them what they were doing in our home. And then he grabbed my mother and that was quite enough for me I then grabbed him, And the police grabbed me as well and then people who had started gathering outside in the street - entered the house and then there was a major scuffle inside our yard. We fought the police and chased them out of our yard and when the police got outside they started shooting birdshot at us and then they left.
That afternoon I went to Rhoodewal flats because there was a gathering of people who rented homes and I thought I had to go there and warn the people because the police might shoot at the people gathering there and there could be young children who would get hurt.
So whilst I was at the flats we had our gathering on an open bit of land and the police then arrived once again and started using birdshot and tear gas against us. I was shot several times with this birdshot - I was shot near my nose - we then ran into a flat and someone then said I must stay there they would call my mother. Someone else also arrived they had been shot - he is now dead.
And they then took the two of us and brought us to Dr Pillay’s surgery for treatment because we couldn’t go to the hospital because the police were guarding the hospital waiting for the people who had been shot. So all the people who were shot that day were taken to Dr Pillay’s surgery and from there we went home.
In 1991 Mr Killian the messenger of the court, again came to our house to bring a summons. I then asked him whether he couldn’t stand outside and I would then send iemand outside, because I said to that we didn’t want him on our property. He just said then he did his work and I then said no you have to do your work some other way, if you get to the gate you must ask whether there are people here, you mustn’t just walk in. And then he said he had the right to enter anywhere. I then said to him sir this is the last time this is going to happen. He called the police again and he told the people that I kept being clever when he came there and they tried to grab me.
I then said to them wait, one of my brothers then came out of the house with some of his friends and a scuffle began again. Someone called my mother who came home and we had a fight with them again outside of our property because my mother said that we mustn’t fight with the police on our property.
Outside myself - my friends - my brother and his friends decided that we would now throw rocks at the police and their vehicles to damage their vehicles if they don’t leave our property which we then did. They then left out of the neighbourhood and I left for the shop sometime later.
Returning from the shops I saw a convoy of police vehicles in our street and a constable Hawker got out of the van - grabbed me - I asked him what was going on and he said he was looking for me. And I asked him for what reason, and he said that it was for throwing rocks. I then asked him to speak to me carefully to explain what was happening and then he said he had no other way of dealing with me, this is the way in which he has to deal with me. And then I said if that is the case what else does want to know from me. He then told me not to talk nonsense, grabbed me by my shoulders and threw me in the back of the van. He sat in the van with his gun and told me that if I got out of the vehicle he would shoot me which I then did, I sat quietly in the vehicle. I was then charged again at the police station again for public violence. I was found guilty and I have not subsequently had any dealings with the police or my apology’s I did not engage in political activities any further.
MS BURTON
[indistinct] thank you very much Mr Kariem. You have given us a very clear picture about how such a young man could get caught up in activities and you had several weeks of detention in Victor Verster prison as well as here in Worcester. It clearly made a very-very vivid impression on you and your family which is still visible today.
I thank you for coming to tell your story, I have no questions Mr Chairperson.
DR BORAINE
Thank you, any other questions from any of Commissioners - Mr Potgieter.
ADV POTGIETER
Just one matter - you explained that in the beginning of 1986, you attempted to return to school - was that - when was that.
MR KARIEM
That was the beginning of 1987.
ADV POTGIETER
You then mentioned you did not succeed in re-entering the school.
MR KARIEM
I could not enter any of these schools. At the end of the final exams in 1986 we received forms for application for return to the school. I completed that form I was with a friend Erna Abrahams. And on that day we put our forms in together.
ADV POTGIETER
Did you pass your exams the previous year - you wanted to enter std 7?
MR KARIEM
No I was in std 7 in 1987 but I failed in 1986. I then applied for a - being allowed again to school so that I could std 7 again during that year.
ADV POTGIETER
No - no - do you think your detention and the whole history which you have sketched for us that this was the reason why you were not taken back to the schools.
MR KARIEM
During the school boycotts of 1985 and 86 I was very active. We always called the school pupils together and there were a group of us, both of senior students who no longer wanted to take a high profile role because they felt the school committee was threatening them and would not re-allow them to write their exams at school so we thought we were std 6 - std 7, std 8’s and we all decided together that if the senior students in school wouldn’t do anything then we would have to begin trying to do something.
ADV POTGIETER
Do you think it was because of this?
MR KARIEM
The attitude of the school committee towards us as well as the principals was the reason why we could expect anything from them. I then in 1987 permanently left school after I was refused admittance at various schools.
ADV POTGIETER
Thank you.
DR BORAINE
Dr Orr.
DR ORR
I don’t have a question, I just want to make a comment and that is - on the role that your mother played. I think the mothers and sisters and wives of South Africa have suffered so much and you are very fortunate to have a mother who fought so hard to get you out of jail, thank you very much.
MR KARIEM
Okay.
DR BORAINE
Mr Kariem, we have listened to an unfolding story of persecution if you like of children and we have recently celebrated Youth Day where the country sought to give its respect to young people and the role that they have played in the past and the responsibilities which they have in the future.
I hope that despite the very bad experiences you’ve had as a youngster - 14 - 15 years old, that this will not take away from your commitment to justice and to helping this country - make it possible for your children if you should have children and children who come after us, that they will not have the same treatment. Thank you very much for coming and we wish you well in your future life, thank you.
MR KARIEM
… the situation that we have today in our country, also in our town here in Worcester, the behaviour of the police in relation to our community, as things are at the moment, the Truth Commission was started to make these things known. We from the community still feel threatened - some times because of vehicle accidents because of violence with gangs and the police are involved.
If you look at gang violence the police simply stands and watch how people murder one another and at the end of the day, once a person is shot, or once the person has died, then this person’s family would ask questions and they are simply told that the police can’t get involved in these kind of cases.
I really would like to know from the Commission if a police officer who is suppose to serve the community surely this person cannot just see that people murder one another without getting involved.
DR BORAINE
This is not an easy question. So let me reply in English - would you mind if I reply in English.
MR KARIEM
No.
DR BORAINE
In South Africa we have moved from one system to another what we call a democratic system of Government. We are in on your journey - we haven’t arrived yet. There are many people who saw the police as the enemy - a great deal of that has changed. Right now as we sit, the police are protecting this hall and protecting witnesses and protecting the Commissioners.
And we got to learn to change not only the police, but you and I as well that we are in a new situation, you are in a new country, we have to find one another and we have to develop a community trust so that we begin to built each other up rather than break each down. That’s not easy and that will take a very long time. But it’s really young people like yourself and others who have the future in your hands in order to try and move beyond where we have been in the past.
There will still be problems, there will still be mistakes made, but it’s not all on the one side. There will be people who will break into homes, there will be people who steal, there will be people who murder, without a police force, we would be in chaos and in darkness. What we got to find is a new way of approaching both from the community point of view and from the police point of view.
And we are committed to a new transforming process, then there is some hope for all of us, but I appreciate your concern, I wish that we had time to discuss all of it, but there are people who are sitting waiting to come and tell their stories and we have given you a lot of time. So I must now ask you to leave and thank you very much indeed - baie dankie.
MR KARIEM
Alles reg.
