CHAIRPERSON: Can I please call John Mokgatlanyane.
MISS SEROKE: Speaks to John Mokgatlanyane in Tswana.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Miss Seroke. Can I also say that if there’s anyone in the audience who wishes to have on of the headphones I see there are some extra ones here on the chair in front. If you, if it will assist you in understanding what’s going on. Good. John, good afternoon.
NR MOKGATLANYANE: Afternoon, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: You’ve been, you’ve been here since early this morning. I, I thank you for your patience. John, Dr Ally is going to be helping you as you tell your story, but I would like Professor Piet Meiring just to assist you in, in taking the oath please. Will you please stand.
PROF. MEIRING: John, will you please repeat after me, that everything I say is the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help me God.
JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ally.
DR ALLY: Thank you, and welcome to you, John. You, you’re coming to speak about a very horrific experience. Something that happened to you, personally, in 1991, in January 1991, a period, or a time when there was great unrest in the former homeland, former Boputhatswana. This was a year after the ANC had been unbanned in the country as a whole, but there was still serious problems in Bop about the rights of the ANC to actually operate freely. It produced a lot of conflict and a lot of people were caught up in this conflict and you were one of those. So, I’d like you just to give us an account of what actually happened to you during that time.
MR MOKGATLANYANE: It was on the 8th, in 1991. It was on Tuesday. We went to Mr Selomi’s house. We were going to pray, because his house was burnt, and the police came. When they arrived, they shot us with teargas and rubber bullets and living bullets. After that, we dispersed and others were injured and I was also a victim, because they shot me and they took me to the hospital at Lefurutsi. That’s all.
DR ALLY: How old were you at the time of this incident ? Can you remember ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: I was twenty years old.
DR ALLY: And what were you doing at the time ? Were you at school ? Were you working ? What was your ...
MR MOKGATLANYANE: I was not working.
DR ALLY: Were you at school ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: I was not at school.
DR ALLY: So you were unemployed ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: Yes....
DR ALLY: Now you say that, that there was this, a prayer meeting, right, because the house of this family had been burnt ? Was this, did this prayer meeting, did it, was there any kind of political aspect to it ? Was it, was it also about, about the political conflict taking place at the time ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, there was political conflict at the time.
DR ALLY: This prayer meeting at this house. The man whose house was burnt, was he seen as a - was he politically active ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: He was not politically active.
DR ALLY: Why was his, why was his house burnt ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: We don’t know how it was burnt.
DR ALLY: Did you have any idea of who burnt the house ? Were there any rumours, any stories about who was responsible for burning his house ? This is Mr Soluma, this is the person you’re speaking about is that correct ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: I don’t know the people who burnt the house.
DR ALLY: The person whose house was burnt you said the name was it Soluma ? Is that the name that you mentioned ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, that’s true.
DR ALLY: And you don’t know why the house was burnt, and you don’t know, you don’t have an idea who was supposed to have burnt the house ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: I don’t know how to put it.
DR ALLY: Put it the best way that you, that you can, whichever way you want to put it and we and we will see if we can work out what you’re trying to say.
MR MOKGATLANYANE: His house was burnt because he was supporting Papsi Sebogodi.
DR ALLY: So it was part of this conflict with these two Chiefs, that we’ve heard about ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, that’s true. It was part of this conflict between the two Chiefs.
DR ALLY: And you were twenty years old at the time. Were you involved in aany structures, any youth structures, or political structures or any kind ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: I was a member of the African National Congress at the time.
DR ALLY: When did you become a member of the African National Congress ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: I, the answer is not clear, Sir.
DR ALLY: Was this, sorry, we didn’t, I did hear you ? When did you say you became a member of the African National Congress ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: 99. That’s 1990, Sir.
DR ALLY: Thanks. So at this house, at this prayer meeting, was it known that these were ANC people or supporters of the ANC, who also supported the Chief, Segodi ? Was that the nature of that prayer meeting ? Is that correct ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: Yes that’s true.
DR ALLY: Now, when the police arrived, the Bop, the Boputhatswana police did they give any instructions, to the people there ? Did they say, you have five minutes to disperse, this is an illegal gathering? What actually happened when the police arrived ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: I heard a loudspeaker talking, saying we should disperse. Whilst we were trying to disperse then they started shooting us with the rubber bullets and teargas. Then others were injured, then some were arrested.
DR ALLY: Was anybody killed on that day, do you know ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, he’s there.
DR ALLY: What about the people who were killed, what do you know about that day ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: I know about George Segwati, that’s all.
DR ALLY: How did George Segwati die ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: He was shot and then he was taken to hospital, then he died in hospital. I, we were in the same van when we were taken to the hospital.
DR ALLY: So, you were taken to hospital and at the hospital, what did they find out, had happened to you?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: (speaks in Tswana)
DR ALLY: Sorry I didn’t hear that. Just repeat that please. Ok, no never mind, let’s continue. When you got to hospital, they discovered that you’d actually been, been shot ... (interrupted)
MR MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, they saw that I was shot.
DR ALLY: Right, and tell us about that. Where had you been shot ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: On my private parts, Sir.
DR ALLY: Was that live ammunition, or was that the rubber bullets, who, what, what, what had you been shot, what had you been shot with ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: It was a live bullet, Sir.
DR ALLY: So when you got to the hospital, what did they have to do to you, because of this, because of the way you had been shot ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: On my way to the hospital I fainted therefore I don’t remember what happened in the hospital.
DR ALLY: But you had an operation when you were in hospital. Yes? They operated on you?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, I was operated.
DR ALLY: And were your testicles removed as a result of the way you had been shot? Is that correct?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, that’s true.
DR ALLY: And did you have to continue to go into the hospital for treatment after that? What happened ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, I continued at the hospital for medical attention but I was never better. I was taken to Harankwe hospital. At Harankwe they tried, they did try to help me. After I was released, I went to Johannesburg hospital, General hospital. That’s where I was a little bit better.
DR ALLY: And now, what’s the situation ? What’s happening to you and what’s your health like ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: It’s no more the same as before, before I was shot but now I feel many pains. When I think of what has happened to me I become emotionally disturbed.
DR ALLY: And do you continue to go to hospital for any, for any treatment still, or are you on medication of any kind ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, I’m on medication. I collect my tablets at the clinic.
DR ALLY: And did you ever have any counselling ? Did you ever have anyone come and speak to you about what happened and go through these events with you ? Did you have anything like that at, at any point? A social worker or a councillor or a nurse, anybody speak to you about what happened to you, explain to you the meaning of all of this?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: I didn’t get social workers but I met social workers in Johnnesburg, because I was sent there by the lawyers.
DR ALLY: And the social workers in Johannesburg ? What did they do ? Did they speak to you ? Did they ...
MR MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, they spoke with me, then they took me to general hospital. Before I went to Johannesburg, I went through to Johannesburg General hospital through the lawyers, then they took me to a specialist and then from there I was taken to the social workers. Then the social workers sent me to the General hospital in Johannesburg.
DR ALLY: Do you have any contact with the social, with social workers now ? Do, do you still speak to anybody ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: I don’t speak to them by now.
DR ALLY: Now tell us about this with the lawyers. Is this, are these the lawyers who are representing you? Have you laid charges against the former Boputhatswana police?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: After we were shot, we were arrested for public violence, then we were taken to hospital. After coming back from hospital, I was sent back to prison.
DR ALLY: Sent back to prison on and how long did they keep, how long were you in prison?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: I don’t remember how long but I think it’s four days.
DR ALLY: You were charged with public violence. That was the charge against you ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, I was charged with public violence.
DR ALLY: Did you ever have to appear in court ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, I did appear in court.
DR ALLY: Tell us about that, what happened? You had a lawyer representing you and, and, and others who had been charged, is that not so ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, I was represented by a lawyer.
DR ALLY: Can you tell us about what happened in court ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: We were found guilty about public violence. We were sentenced for five years but they were set aside.
DR ALLY: So it was a suspended sentence ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: That’s, yes, that’s true.
DR ALLY: And did you have to pay any fines or anything like that ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: No, I didn’t pay any fine.
DR ALLY: In your statement, I was trying to see the name of the lawyer. I don’t see you mention the name of the lawyer. Can you remember who the lawyer was. who represented you ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: We were represented by Mam Rebenbach. He stays in Zeerust. Reben, Rebenbach. If that is a clear pronunciation. Breyt, Breytenbach, I believe.
DR ALLY: Now this suspended sentence, for how long was it suspended because you know, when they normally do this, they say five years suspended for eighteen months, for one year, can you, can you remember more specifically the actual sentence after you were found guilty?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: We were sentenced for five years.
DR ALLY: Right, that was suspended. Right ? The five years was suspended?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, it was suspended.
DR ALLY: Can you remember if they said for how long. In order words, if you commit something similar in a year or two years, you can then get the five years. That’s how it normally works. Can you remember, if you can’t, that’s fine because we can get those details from the lawyer. If you can’t remember then don’t worry. If you can then that is helpful to us.
MR MOKGATLANYANE: ................ five.
DR ALLY: OK. And did you ever consider laying a charge yourself, against the police for, for what happened to you? Did you ever discuss with your lawyer for example ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: No, we didn’t.
DR ALLY: Did you know who these policemen were, who came and fired ? Can you, would you be able to identify any one of them, more than one ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: I will not identify them, because it, the situation was confusing. I saw some policemen in court.
DR ALLY: You, didn’t know any of them at the time and you still, and you say now, you wouldn’t be able to, to name anyone or identify anyone?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: The one I know is Captain Masisako.
DR ALLY: Where is this Captain ? ... (interrupted) Where is he, where is based ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: He was at Motsweti police station. I don’t know where he is now.
DR ALLY: Can you tell us a little bit about your present situation now. How do you cope ? How do you survive ? Who provides for you ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: I’m struggling in life because I’m sick, I’m not able to work for myself and that is not possible because of my health state and at home they’re struggling also.
DR ALLY: Who do you live with presently ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: My mother and my sisters.
DR ALLY: And they take care of you, your mother and your sisters take care of you ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: That’s true.
DR ALLY: And you personally, what that you hope can be done in your situation ? When you came to the Truth Commission, what is it that you, why were you coming to the Truth Commission ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: My desire is financial help. Maybe I’ll forget the problems I have.
DR ALLY: And what about schooling ? What standard did you complete at school?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: I passed the standard three.
DR ALLY: And then you stopped going to school ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, I stopped.
DR ALLY: Why, did something happen that made you stop ? What ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: We are struggling at home. We’re living, we’re living below the bread line, therefore they didn’t have means to take us to school.
DR ALLY: Any political issues or community issues what ...
MR MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, I’m still politically active.
DR ALLY: Thank you very much. I’ll give you back to, to the Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Professor Meiring.
PROF. MEIRING: Only two very brief questions. One is to do with your emotional state. You said that you are still emotionally very disturbed and you’re not receiving any treatment at the moment. Would you like treatment ? Do you feel that you need treatment for that ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, I’m in need of help, Sir.
PROF. MEIRING: ...................... is at night ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, I have bad mess, at night.
PROF. MEIRING: And just a last thing. You mentioned the name of George Segwati who was shot on the very same day as you were shot. Was he killed ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, he was killed.
PROF. MEIRING: Do you know if his parents or if his family have made a statement ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: I don’t know, Sir.
PROF. MEIRING: Can I ask you, if you have, if you still know where the people live where the Sekwati family live, that you will advise them that we would like a statement from them, telling about their son ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: I know where they’re staying.
PROF. MEIRING: Then we ask you to please go to them and say that we would like to have a statement from them.
MR MOKGATLANYANE: I’ll do so.
CHAIRPERSON: John, thank you very much. Is there anything else you want to say ?
MR MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, there’s something I want to say. The last thing I want to say is. I wanted to ask, on my behalf to Mr Mangope, that how did he come to Lekobo in our area. Can you ask Mr Mangope, because many things which has happened at home, if it was not because of him we could not have been in the problems we have. There could not have been somebody who has been crippled. So, can you ask Mr Mangope and Captain Selike. To ask them why did they send police in our area, because we were living in peace and there were no conflict before. There could not have been a person who has been crippled but immediately they entered our village, the conflict started. We were living in peace but immediately they came, that’s when we started to have problems. I thought maybe if were, as I was saying this, Mr Selike or Mr Mangope, they could have been here, they could have been here, so that they should be asked many questions that, what, what were the reasons to them to come to Lekobo, because it seems they are responsible for our suffering. That, that’s the thing which disturbed me all the time. There was no - there, there were no houses which were burnt before and there were no people who were killed before but immediately they came in, the people were incarcerated, they were imprisoned and our parents were staying in the veld and others were running to, to the location.
CHAIRPERSON: John, thank you very much. I don’t think any words can describe what happened to you at the time and I’m sure what has happened to you since. You have so eloquently said what your family situation is at the moment and I hope that within the new South Africa there is place for you to actually continue some form of education and to be able to get a job. I’m sure that Professor Meiring has listened very carefully in terms of your needs and in time we will come back to you on that. We wish you well in the future. Thank you very much for coming.
MR MOKGATLANYANE: Thank you, Sir.
